Why has seduction evolved to be as complicated and confusing as it is today?

what-diddy-what-what · 2018-06-25T06:15:00+00:00

Its always been complicated. You've allowed media and dramatisation to convince you it was easier. It wasn't. But that said, its fundamentally not the circus you describe, and honestly its not as complicated as most everyone on this sub makes it out to be. Here is the secret: If you're confident, if you value yourself, if you aren't a needy bitch who puts women on a pedestal, but instead values them as an equal, your chance of scoring is very good. If you master all the techniques posted here, your chances are excellent. See what I'm saying? You don't need to be a freakin master to have good results. You just need the basics. If your goal is to get into a long term relationship, just focus on the basics. If your goal is to bang half a city, then master all the techniques. My wife is gorgeous. When we go to the club (I kid you not) dudes high five me and tell me nice work bro. You know how I met her? I walked right up to her in a bar while she was on her phone next to the band that was playing and said "You look like you're the only one in here who isn't having a good time. I'm what-diddy-what-what, whats your name? and I smiled. We talked for 5 mins, then I asked for her number and left while we were having a great time. She called me. Later, I asked her about that night. I was about the 5th guy that came to talk to her. I wasn't the best looking, or the most alpha, or the guy with the most game. I was the guy who approached her honestly, was confident, treated her as an equal, and seemed down to earth. I was the nice guy, but not the needy guy. And it worked.

WhiskeySeven · 2018-06-25T06:40:49+00:00

It seems complicated because there's a ton of misinformed retards peddling half-baked garbage to other misinformed retards. If meeting people and having a social life seems like a circus to you, it's because you're acting like a clown.

Of course the "my fair lady" shit doesn't work today, times change and so do cultural and societal norms. That doesn't mean it was any more or less complicated.

Society has opened up, people are more direct and open than ever and that means it is both easier to meet new people and harder because of natural competition and diversity of options. It's both easier and harder to meet new people in London than it is in Twin Falls, Idaho for the same reason.

What your takeaway from all these lists, advice columns, seminars (don't go to seminars), and other such shit should be is a set of fundamental truths that apply even beyond "seduction": (1) Treat others how you'd like to be treated/Hold others to the same standards you hold yourself (ie. If some greasy stranger came up to you in the middle of a mall and asked you out, you'd be turned off and scared away. So don't do the same yourself), (2) If you're unhappy about how your life is going, you can take steps to improve your situation and how you feel about it (ie. "Be Confident" actually means be confident in what you have to offer, and if you're not confident in what you have, improve yourself until you become confident in it and yourself), and (3) There are certain cognitive or physical "shortcuts" that can help you develop your socializing skills (eg. People are generally attracted to healthy looking individuals, you can make socializing easier by looking healthier. Another one would be: people generally respond to physical contact and are likelier to form sympathy for the person they're in contact with).

1 is literally the Golden Rule and applies across the board. 2 is so-called Inner Game. 3 is so-called Outer Game. It's all the retards reverse engineering social interactions who are complicating things. They abstract the actual concepts over and over and then try to engineer them down into catch-all philosophies. There's bound to be obfuscation. I stopped engaging with this shit entirely the moment I got laid after my first 'real' breakup.

guimafelipe · 2018-06-25T04:40:17+00:00

It's not. Just this saturday i was in a bar with 2 friends. One of them goes to the bathroom, see a cute girl in a table. Just go directly to her and say "Hi, my name is ___. I find you cute, would you mind i sit here?"

2 minutes of talking they are kissing and we moved to her table with her friends.

WIA20XX · 2018-06-25T05:14:04+00:00

People have mistaken regular run of the mill dating with seduction. There are so few legit seduction questions here, it's painful.

Getting laid is straight forward. Seducing a girl that is attractive and also is hostile or indifferent is not straight forward.

Spiritofchokedout · 2018-06-25T07:30:13+00:00

This is an exceptionally sheltered comment.

Nothing has really changed aside from the scale and speed of communication and the tools we use to facilitate comfort. Go actually read "my fair lady" blah blah blah crap if you think that shit back in the day was simple. Hell, just go back to the 19th Century and read some Jane Austen. Courtship and dating has always been a headache, and if you're just looking to fuck on the downlow there are (and always have been) plenty of avenues to do so. The latter just wasn't written up and preserved for posterity the way the highbrow stuff was. Hell, what we do have indicates that people in the past got fucking freaky with their freaky fucking way more fucking often than most of us ever do-- guess no internet meant making your own fun.

You're feeling social fatigue and looking for emotional validation, and that is valid, but trying to impugn the past like some open mic stand-up only makes you seem provincial and stunted.

recyclablebanthas · 2018-06-25T13:48:59+00:00

1

Why has seduction evolved to be as complicated and confusing as it is today?

In almost any subject, there is a tendency for some people to end up thinking that things have fallen apart today, relative to some golden age or simpler time. These views are based on incomplete understandings of the past.

Roll the clock back to the 80s and you can see that guys were so lost about how to find girls that they were willing to try a number of awkward things.
Matchmaking has been around for a while, indicating that there's always been a need for a helping hand.

I could go on, but the point is, things have always been complicated or confusing in some way, for some reason.

2

Courting in the early 20th century was as easy as getting along with someone and saying you wanted to date them and... That was about it.

Not even close. If we roll back to that time you're citing, things were quite messy. Urbanization of the Western world was leading to some changes that were making things tricky.

People were moving to the city, often away from their families, and away from smaller areas where people were more likely to be set up by matchmakers in the community or perhaps have marriage arranged by family members.
People suddenly had more options in big cities. And that tends to make things more difficult, not easier, ironically.
Hell, dating apparently started in the 1920s, replacing more traditional "courtship" methods that involved having chaperones, etc.
Which hit just as birth control was starting to become more acceptable, leading, along with increased choices in cities, to men and women both having harder times finding someone to settle down with and more people enjoying casual encounters without fear of pregnancy.

And under those circumstances, it was not so easy as you paint it. People have always known if there is chemistry, of course, but simply saying you want to date someone has never really been the way people initiated it even then.

3

Before that was poetry and chivalry "my fair lady" blah blah blah crap, and it worked.

You're talking about courtly love. This is distinct because it wasn't something that "worked" at all. It was guys pining from afar, for a noblewoman who was with someone else.

It was an outlet of sorts. It presented unrequited love as something noble, framing this thing we now consider a waste of time, as something honorable.

4

If you tried that now you'd be the weirdest guy in the room (unless it was done as a joke).

And to be clear, all the things you've described, trying to initiate a romance, relationship, or casual encounter by saying you want one, or courtly love, were awkward and/or ineffective even in their own day.

5

Now there's all of these games and conventions you must abide by...

So now with all that's been laid out in #1-4, it should be clear that these "games and conventions" you're referring to, are nothing new.

At least, the social rules that run underneath it all, having changed much, in the end.

6

Don't apprear too interested, never make your intentions known, never be too invested, be aloof, tease incessantly etc.

We must be absolutely clear here. You're describing concepts that pertain to a very specific faction of PUAs within the seduction community, not some universal set of social rules. Specifically, indirect game, which was pushed by Mystery and those who followed him.

Feigned disinterest, hiding intentions, keeping score of how much investment there is, being aloof, negging, etc..... These things create the appearance of greater attraction, but that attraction is based on the thrill of the hunt. She's not into the guy doing those things, but rather, she's into the thrill of the hunt. And if he ever drops the games, the fantasy is shattered and the girl is generally gone soon after that.

It's fine for a specific sort of goal: casual sex. And pretty shitty for relationships. Unless you like relationships that are dysfunctional and/or blow up in your face.

7

How the hell did we get to this circus??

Men are generally discouraged from developing social skills that would help them with two of the biggest foundational pieces of seduction:

Being able to truly own what you want. This is easier said than done, but being unapologetic in the expression of your desires, is a very attractive thing.
Being aware of what she wants and being able to calibrate/adapt according to that. Because she won't be up for it unless there's something in it for her. Pleasure, a connection she likes, etc. And you can't be in a position to offer that thing she wants, unless you know what she wants.

Guys are often hamstrung of the ability to own what they want, if they're bullied or have an exaggerated fear inspired in them if they hear girls complaining about a guys behaving badly.

Guys are often hindered in their development of empathy/awareness of what she wants, as they grow up together in locker room environments and schoolyards, with guys often being encouraged to suppress empathy or emotions or to channel them in specific ways that don't enhance social awareness.

Culture is fucking guys, basically. Unless they run into game, they're often coming out of high school with low confidence around women and low awareness of what they want.

51f8mous · 2018-06-25T13:40:42+00:00

What the hell are you talking about?

It’s always been complicated ever since women were allowed to make the decision for themselves.

The only thing that makes it harder for the average guy now (and girl for that matter) is social media.

A completely average girl who does nothing exciting, works at the mall, and lives at home can easily have 10k instagram followers... of which she probably knows a few hundred. She is being followed by thousands of strangers and probably has hundreds if not thousands of random dudes DMing her each week asking her what’s up.

Can you imagine what that does to a persons psyche?

Even though she probably rejects and ‘ignores’ most if not all of them, she still has that subconscious element that is saying her dating pool is much larger than some guy who hits on her at the bar. And she is constantly comparing you to the thousands of options she has.

Disleep · 2018-06-25T07:44:46+00:00

Potential partners.

The big change in the game happened with the internet, but also with the world being more open and connected.

It's easier to choose if you have just a couple of good options, there's no tinder, flights are expensive, you're stuck with friends from school, know only people from work etc.

Nowadays you can potentially meet any kind of person very easily, which makes you think twice before giving your time to someone or spend all the rest you have with him.

Your grandfather wasn't in deep love for your grandmother, it's just that among the 3 chicks that he liked from his life, she was the best hands down.

Seduction didn't get more complicated, ugly guys still have bad times and "alphas" have easy life.

My 2 cents

ReighIB · 2018-06-25T09:19:50+00:00

I don't think it's that complicated to be honest.

It's more commercialized with different methods and approach that can often contradict each other, so from that point of view it seems to be complicated.

You don't have to nor should abide by someone else's rules. You make your own choices, you make your own mistakes, you learn from those mistakes and you come up with your own style that works for you the best.

I just go direct. I don't like to beat around the bushes. I just have to be okay with whatever the outcome may be but more importantly, have some fun in the process. Also never pretend to be someone I'm not. I dunno, saves time, make things simpler for me. That's what works for me the best. Doesn't mean it'll work for you.

zhantoo · 2018-06-25T09:19:55+00:00

One thing that makes you think it has changed is that they don't write movies or books about the guy who couldn't get laid in the 18th century.

But it's not just seduction that has changed, it's the world in general - in which seduction is a part of.

jewfro667 · 2018-06-25T12:08:20+00:00

I don’t think it’s complicated so much as it is sold as something that’s complicated. What this means is that you have guys like RSD who put out videos with all these tricks and lines and phrases that make some guys think “oh if I say this this and this to the girl, she’ll automatically like me.” Essentially, guys get into the mindset of women being like computers where theres always the same outcome which obviously isn’t true because people respond to emotion and what works on one woman wouldn’t work on all of them, or it might work on the woman but she had a crappy day and isn’t in the mood, etc.

Ultimately, you have to just be more aware of your surroundings and talk to people. That’s what it comes down to. All this industry jargon is too much “Let’s make it sound cool”.

Crashlands · 2018-06-25T17:57:48+00:00

The more you think of it as a game with a ton of standards to go by, the worse you’ll do.

It’s really simple - be a strong, genuine version of yourself, go for chicks who have similar interests, and show intent without being weird about it.

secrecypuzzle · 2018-06-25T07:42:58+00:00

I think the issue is that people aren't really talking about 'seduction' most of the time. It's always a case of the girl thinking he's hot, they get hook up, and then he thinks he's a master of seduction. Bit like the good looking guy who uses tinder and opens with ''DTF??''. She says 'yes, where and when??'' he replies with his address and ''9pm'' and they meet and have sex instantly and now he's brags about this on a 'seduction' forum.

Seduction to me is banging girls who basically aren't into you at all when open them (maybe they think you're too ugly for them) or banging a girl who is at best just neutral.

The concerning thing is that there's really very little evidence of this being done. Think of all the infields there are out there and how many meet that criteria. Of the thousands i've watched, I can only think of like 2 infields where people 'turn' a set that was hostile to neautral (however, in both cases they STILL DON'T get laid). These were RSDMax and RSDJulien

I feel one might get a better understanding of 'seduction' (and not just pulling girls who think you are hot) from investigating more extreme cases. Sometimes you read stories and stuff about some 45 year old fat university teacher banging his hot 18 year old student (and not as a bribe. She just falls for him. Always sounds more like 'seduction' to me). I actually want to find a sub where I can read stories from girls about how they first hooked up with someone to see if there's some good clues about the sort of things he said and done

contributive-citizen · 2018-06-25T06:01:47+00:00

It's not that different, human nature is just the same, hot guys and girls are still attractive.

Social media etc provides social proof but honestly it's not even necessary for some situations, in both short or long term dating.

I guess people trying to sell courses are going to make it sound foreign and impossible without their sneaky tricks. You don't need that, though. Strength and confidence will always be attractive.

Smurfboy82 · 2018-06-25T15:25:41+00:00

IMO this is numbers game, you have to take a chance whenever you can, at the very least to sharpen your seduction skill. Don't fear rejection; learn from it!

I'm bisexual so my perception may be skewed.

Dating women: I have more success IRL than I do with dating apps. I think online dating makes things more complicated because you've got a lot more completion not only from other guys, but also whatever the hell is going on in her life; job, kids, Facebook, twitter... all things on her phone that you're up against for her attention. It's much easier for me get a date through meeting friends-of-friends, at work (I'm a bartender so I meet a lot of people) or from visiting local bars or going to events/shows.

Dating men: I do this almost exclusively through dating apps. There's a higher rate of attractive people that have intentions of meeting IRL, less catfishers on gay dating apps. Men are more direct about what they want, it's easier in that regard. However meaningful LTRs are very rare and much harder to find than the hetero world.

ProFriendZoner · 2018-06-25T17:34:15+00:00

So people can make money off of it.

__ManBeast__ · 2018-06-25T08:47:36+00:00

Seduction isn't complicated at all. Just approach a girl confidently, build attraction with her, and escalate smoothly. That's it. Do that without being weird and if she has any inkling of attraction towards you, you'll seduce her.

Modern seduction as it's taught by instructors like RSD, forums like this one, or in the classic Mystery Method popularity surge, are very complicated though. Why is this?

It's first and foremost because guys no longer know how to talk to women. With the advance of culture and technology, guys are isolated from women and don't have experience with them. They don't have the social skills or experience to just talk to a girl and seduce her. If they did, they wouldn't need these forums (look at Naturals, who don't follow any of these complicated rules you describe, and get laid. These guys are pretty much just normal, and the vast majority of guys were like this before modern culture).

So what happens when a majority of guys can no longer talk to girls? Well, you need someone to teach them. In comes the pickup community.

The pickup community was founded to teach guys who couldn't talk to women, how to talk to women. But these guys don't have any experience in social dynamics. And social dynamics is pretty much only taught through trial and error plus experience (almost all of which is developed in the first 18 years, which is what separates a Natural from someone who can't talk to girls). So how do you teach these guys something that needs experience when they have none and are afraid to build more? Well that's where these complicated rules and breakdowns come from.

PUA teachings are very simply just breaking down social skills into logical steps and an almost mathematical progression (just look at how formulaic the Mystery Method is). But because social dynamics are extremely illogical (I mean, how do you break down feelings?), you need to break down each individual social scenario into its logical and understandable components. And this is why it seems so complicated. You're trying to teach very nuanced and subtle social dynamics through pure logic and formula.

So pickup is effective because it turns something as complicated and nuanced as social dynamics into logical and formulaic routines that everyone follows. And this is why it's so effective in teaching guys to talk to girls.

A good analogy for pickup would be Isaac Newton (not the man himself, he died a virgin). Newton learned about gravity the same way that most guys would normally learn social dynamics. He had real world experience (the famous apple on his head) and spent a lot of time building up his knowledge around it. He would be considered a Natural of mathematics. Yet even a high schooler nowadays can understand his work on gravity, when he was a genius for discovering it. That's because gravity was broken down into a logical, formulaic progression. And because people study that logical formula, it's easy for them to learn it. So a high school student doesn't have to go through that experience in order to learn how gravity works. Pickup is the same way.

Just going out and understanding how everything works is easy, but takes experience that many guys don't have. So it needs to be broken down into thorough, logical formulas, which can be studied. This makes it seem more complicated, but like gravity, it's intuitive if you have any experience in it.

javixm · 2018-06-25T11:08:58+00:00

Because we moved from:

Have to get married to have sex (because pregnancy outside of marriage = bad), so everyone wants to get married quickly.... and marriage being an exchange of resources for exclusive sex. Gender roles were clearly defined, and we operated smoothly within them.

To:

Sex is now free of commitment and women have more power (all of the power) to choose who they have sex with, so the bottom 80% of men aren't even rated "average" by most women.

What's happening now is men adjusting to get the fuck out of the bottom 80% and into the top 20% that actually has sex on a regular basis. The average man today has sex with 7 women in his life. I'm at 52 right now... how many zeroes does the equation need for 52 to go all the way down to 7? Shit, I've met guys who have been with over 200... how many zeroes do you need to get that one down to 7?

Add social media to inflate women's egos to this equation, and we've only compounded the problem in the past 10 years.

That's why game in the early 2000s, when The Game came out, was so fucking basic, and worked so well.

Now if you try most of the shit Style and Mystery were doing in 2003, you'll find a good chunk of it won't work at all, so we've adjusted and made it more "complicated" because it's what needs to happen.

How the hell did we get to this circus??

If you want a short answer... feminism. Feminism happened and that's how we got here.

Now, is feminism (the 1960s feminism) bad? I don't know, bad for what?

Is it bad for this? Yes, maybe... if you're in the bottom 80% of attractiveness, then yes, it's bad for you. If you're in the top 20%, or you've worked to get yourself there, then it's great for you.

Is it bad for society? I don't know, I kinda like people to have the freedom to do whatever the fuck they want.

This comes at the price we're paying now of high divorce rates, though. As marriage is entered with "eternal love" in mind, instead of mutual respect and commitment. Since no love lasts forever, neither does any modern marriage.

I hope I've made enough sense...

Alex_O7 · 2018-06-25T07:15:22+00:00

We have poor witnesses from the game in the past, we don't really know how much chivalry and poetry works for example (a lot of poet didn't have a good sex life and a lot of that went unmarried for their whole life). Also the role of the woman change a lot, and now they are more free, in the past every woman have a different mindset and they have to pick an husband as fast as possible. But also the abundance of men, coming form social media, for the women is unreal, so a guy now have to improve his game above the mass.

shanemitchell · 2018-06-25T12:04:25+00:00

Now there's all of these games and conventions you must abide by... Don't apprear too interested, never make your intentions known, never be too invested, be aloof, tease incessantly etc.

It's always been that way, unless you're referring to arranged marriages where the woman wasn't allowed to say no.

letsgetrandy · 2018-06-25T17:27:12+00:00

You're fooling yourself. Seduction has never been easier than it is today!

In past times, if you weren't the strongest one in the group or the richest one in the group, there was a good chance your bloodline would end there.

But today, thanks to the advances of civilized society, even a whiny little bitch who cries all over the internet can still take a shower, get a haircut, make a Tinder profile, and swipe enough times to have a date for the evening.

In other words, put down the computer, clean yourself up, and get swiping. Stop whining.

Stringdaddy27 · 2018-06-25T18:51:18+00:00

As a man, it's not complicated nor is it confusing. If you're driven by fear your entire life, it will seem like that. All that crap you described is bullshit. If you think that's part of the "game", you're delusional.

HeartBreakRidge · 2018-06-25T10:38:17+00:00

Because women don’t need a man as much as they did before.

Nashboy45 · 2018-06-25T11:06:04+00:00

Im in a relationship but i don’t see it as anymore complexed than before. My dad had tried to be with my mom for years until she finally said yes. And because there was a stigma about sex before marriage Im sure it was on the mind of every woman not to do anything that wasn’t marriage. Now it’s more open minded and free to explore.

As for dating now, I think it’s confusing only because we make it confusing. Maybe the few interactions people have with women make them feel as though they are random and mysterious but I think they think the same way we do for the most part. All the things we would probably call a girl crazy for, they call us creepy. Also taking into consideration that we are often bigger, there is a slight tilt towards fear every interaction.

But the trick to me (at least in theory because I’m more of a relationship guy, and I’m currently in one) is to be honest but make sense. For example, if you like a girl bc she is good looking, tell her but don’t fantasize about her to the point were you have an unrealistic expectation for her. I think girls can tell when you are projecting an ideal woman on them and that would make us look creepy just like if a girl did that to us we’d thing they’re a little to giddy about us for what’s reasonable.

At that point, if it doesn’t work out, it’s not on you. She just wasn’t feeling you like that, and as long as you were just looking at her as a person, then it wouldn’t bug you that you guys are just different because it’s only looks and there are billions of other people who look good. If it tears you apart that this girl rejects you that means you weren’t looking at the girl in front of you but rather the idea of what you thought she is which is obviously painful. You don’t really know a valuable person worth feeling hurt for until they’ve been with you through the hard shit.

And if that’s a long standing friend who has been through the hard shit with you and you want to date her, rule still applies. Be honest and tell her that you’ve always thought she has been pretty (although by then she probably should have heard that from you) and that she’s been a really good friend because of x, y,z etc, and that you’d like to lock her down before anyone takes her away from you. That’s honest and real and if she says no then yeah it sucks but even then she’s not a goddess you’ll never encounter again one day. Just a person that cares about you, and with time that can be anyone.

LimitedContributor · 2018-06-25T12:52:48+00:00

But why wouldn't it? Beauty is subjective. People CAN get thrown off to.

Sometimes the complication can be fun and interesting.

pacg · 2018-06-25T08:49:56+00:00

Games and conventions are not a recent development if Jane Austen and the sisters Bronte are to be believed. I suggest that modern complications result from a loosening of social conventions such that there’s no clarity regarding acceptable modes of sex and courtship.

It was only twenty years ago that a couple of college kids could take an earnest tumble without one of them being accused of sexual assault. Regrettable sex, especially when drunk, was what we expected in college. Those days are long gone.

JimBeamAndCoke2016 · 2018-06-25T10:18:50+00:00

Things have definitely changed, and not for the better. The amount of hoops that guys have to jump through, and the the threshold of attractiveness has become unrealistic, all thanks to technology and online dating.

Thanks to this, girls are now hit on constantly and have more options than ever. Girls who are 5's and below get attention from guys they wouldn't have a hope in hell of attracting pre-internet and because of this, their entitlement seeps into real life interactions.

Not all the girls' fault either. Beta guys chasing these girls that are this level, are also to blame.

The result of all this is that looks matter more than ever for guys.

Just my thoughts, observations and experiences.

TheAmazingOllie · 2018-06-25T11:13:49+00:00

TyroneTheSavage · 2018-06-25T04:49:06+00:00

Our society has lost touch with reality and is in a mode of cultural self destruction?

raimondi1337 · 2018-06-25T10:37:55+00:00

It's not if you're a decently well put together and adjusted guy looking for decent women. Some guys figured out some magic sauce that, when properly employed, gives chubby awkward losers the ability to trick hot chicks into sleeping with them occasionally, and that bled into normal dating advice.

NilacTheGrim · 2018-06-25T21:46:12+00:00

I think you're wearing pink-colored glasses in looking at the past.

If anything it's a LOT easier now to at least have sex than it was 50 years ago. For both men and women. Lots of taboos have disappeared and it's normal now to have a dozen partners or more before you get married.

I think you're just not particularly experienced yet in this stuff, and you're getting frustrated.

Be patient and don't give up and things will get better. Optimism and resilience go a long way in everything, including seduction.

judahman8 · 2018-06-25T22:47:43+00:00

When you learn something it starts off simple, then it gets complicated, then it ends up simple again. "To get girls, all you have to do is be bla bla bla" it's simple. "Wait how do I become bla bla bla?" now it's complicated. "Oh I finally get it" simple again. So is it complicated or simple? Well it's actually both.

anonymau5 · 2018-06-25T11:28:59+00:00

False allegations

Archangel_White_Rose · 2018-06-26T02:40:25+00:00

It's only complicated cause you make it complicated.
Shits easy. Make eye contact. Don't be needy. Make her jealous.

Title	Why has seduction evolved to be as complicated and confusing as it is today?
Author	DDM201
Upvotes	186
Comments	111
Date	June 25, 2018 4:33 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/8tnqep/why_has_seduction_evolved_to_be_as_complicated/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/why-has-seduction-evolved-to-be-as-complicated-and.1448730 https://theredarchive.com/post/1448730

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