"Toxic Masculinity isn't the problem. Lack of Masculinity is."

cjekaf · 2019-01-18T18:17:05+00:00

How do you encourage more men to become teachers

Viper1-11 · 2019-01-18T16:20:09+00:00

Had someone tell me this was a good thing and that the less men the better.

PathToManliness · 2019-01-18T17:35:08+00:00

The family court system depriving men of the opportunity to raise their children is a massive problem that some would like you to overlook.

hall_residence · 2019-01-18T22:15:27+00:00

43% of boys are raised by single mothers..? I'm sorry but that's completely false. The census bureau says 23% of children are raised by single mothers, as of 2016. Also, the "8/10 chance of having 100% female teachers at school" statement doesn't make sense. That's not how math works. Whoever this person is who made this post doesn't understand numbers.

Barkalow · 2019-01-18T19:03:19+00:00

I only ever see this picture here, which is unfortunate because it tends to be a bit of an echo chamber. I'd be interested in a conversation from all sides.

theanchorman05 · 2019-01-18T18:06:26+00:00

Coming from a single parent home, I think one of the huge differences is that men teach boys how to deal with their emotions better. In a single parent home with only women influences it's really hard to teach that.

TheWayWill · 2019-01-18T22:16:41+00:00

As much as I agree with this, it feels awfully distorted.

43% of boys are raised by single mothers? That would mean that nearly half of all families in the US have just single mothers as the parent/guardian. I find that awfully hard to believe, I know it's a big problem but I don't believe that the father is missing in almost half of all families in the US.

And I believe that 78% of teachers are female, but most kids have around 6 teachers in school so saying there's an 8/10 chance the kid has 100% female influence at school assumes the kid has just one teacher. 0.78⁶ is ~22.5%. So roughly a quarter of kids will have all female teachers.

Also it just occurred to me that often in elementary school kids will have just one teacher, but their formative years last well into high school

morebeansplease · 2019-01-18T19:03:18+00:00

We all know how to fix this problem. Regulating working hours, resolving poverty, closing for profit prisons, ending the war on drugs, ending the male only draft would let the Men go home and be a Dad. So how do we get people on board with this?

bloodbathman · 2019-01-18T20:46:39+00:00

So.. I don't think this graphic is addressing the actual claims people are making about toxic masculinity.

So the basic assertion of this graphic is that if more boys were raised with masculine influences around them they would not fall prey to "toxic" forms of masculinity that they end up adopting when they get older and search out what it means to masculine.

While I agree with that assertion, I think it misses the point that society-at-large should discourage portrayal of the view that in order to be a "real man" you need to be aggressive and powerful and treat women as objects/trophies.

And, just as importantly, I think MRA's should get behind that point. I don't think this is a war against masculinity. This is a war against the "toxic" part of "toxic masculinity". For example, I'm not against drinking water, but I am against drinking arsenic laden water. Those men who act like asses and portray women as trophies are really harming our movement.

dak4ttack · 2019-01-18T21:32:33+00:00

43% of boys are raised by single mothers

This is not even close to a correct statistic. Let's keep it accurate and not just make shit up to support a position.

These_pretzels_suck_ · 2019-01-18T20:03:04+00:00

That’s...

That’s really not how any of this works.

It’s just number manipulation to skew data.

Interesting, but ultimately BS.

PM-ME-YOUR-MEMEZ · 2019-01-18T20:59:26+00:00

43% of boys are raised in only female households? I call bull FUCKING shit. There is no way.

BeeStingsAndHoney · 2019-01-19T01:02:40+00:00

I had a primary school teacher rip into me over my criticisms of the Gillette ad. I let her finish then said "considering males make up less than 20% of primary school teachers, aren't you somewhat responsible in shaping who these young kids become?" Shut. Down.

salderosan99 · 2019-01-18T19:27:51+00:00

I don't know, it seems far fetched. It's much more complicated than that

drmangrum · 2019-01-18T22:31:35+00:00

And men don't become teachers because we all know they'd be falsely accused of sexual harassment of co-workers or students. The high probability of having their life destroyed isn't with the meager paycheck.

Yoji_84 · 2019-01-18T15:22:36+00:00

Numbers don't lie.

Ayy_2_Brute · 2019-01-18T19:15:46+00:00

What is masculinity?

misandrismysognist · 2019-01-18T15:22:27+00:00

I agree. Though the lack of masculinity won’t last.

hawleyal · 2019-01-18T22:41:42+00:00

83% of stats are made up to fit the argument

willbeonekenobi · 2019-01-19T08:47:29+00:00

I posted this image on r/Feminism, it got locked almost immediately.

killedontheprivy · 2019-01-19T21:22:45+00:00

Even coming from a two parent home my dad was the only one that worked. My Mom was very manipulative and lied alot. Definitely always tried to make my dad out to be the bad guy. My dad worked 10 hours a day 6.5 days a week for decades. My mom was a stay at home mom that didn't cook or clean. Seriously. She had a cleaning lady. She made microwave dinner. Also didn't take care of the yard. Me and my dad did that.

But I never saw my dad so I believed my mom's narrative. Now I'm older and have more experience with women, I can see the truth. But I basically don't know my dad because he worked all the time. When he did come home my mom would just nag and complain. Don't really blame him for not always rushing home.

But it would have been better for me to have a father.

dirtydart · 2019-01-18T20:53:31+00:00

Is there a source for these stats? Cannot find them

Jethawk710 · 2019-01-18T22:38:02+00:00

Why do I only see women saying things about toxic masculinity? I was raised by women. Just cuz i dont have a full lumberjackbeard lift 200lbs nd kill deer with my bare hands dont make me any less of a man. Why is this an issue.

SaffellBot · 2019-01-18T23:21:10+00:00

I'm not only going to disagree with the numbers in the post, but the premise. I worked on a submarine for 8 years. No women allowed. That place was more toxic than anywhere else. The whole place had the emotional maturity of a 14 year old. Surrounding yourself with men just reinforces all the stupid shit that men do when left to their own devices.

LiquidDreamtime · 2019-01-18T19:47:28+00:00

Do all of you really have this poor of an understanding of “toxic masculinity”?

Adjectives are words that describe nouns.

Masculinity is the primary word here. There is a type of masculinity that encourages men to display toxic behavior as it relates to their masculinity. It’s not a difficult concept to grasp and the moron who tweeted this is being willfully ignorant.

Budborne · 2019-01-18T21:34:21+00:00

Why can't we just agree that they're both problems?

Plus, you do realize these statistics don't mean 43% of boys have literally 0 male influence, you guys can't be taking this seriously. Why is it even a problem?

Edit: after looking at more comments these numbers aren't even correct and the 8/10 thing isn't even how this whole thing works.

riverrat88 · 2019-01-18T21:19:02+00:00

My only complaint is her math for the teachers portion sucks. Assuming you have 8 classes which is 8 teaches .8⁸ is a 13.4% chance you have all female teachers.

summonblood · 2019-01-19T06:19:26+00:00

Be sure to cite this as well:

63% of youth suicides come from fatherless homes

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes

85% of all children with behavior disorders come from fatherless homes

80% of rapists come from fatherless homes

71% of all high school drop outs come from fatherless homes

https://thefatherlessgeneration.wordpress.com/statistics/

ElusiveMonty · 2019-01-19T00:02:17+00:00

I have a genuine question - not an argument but more of a need to understand, since I see this post a lot:

Would we not attribute the fact that boys are mostly raised by women to the additional fact that men are often the ones leaving families? Whether it's through divorce, abandonment, neglect or various other reasons? Isn't that the problem being argued here that men aren't present for their sons? So I understand the statistic of boys mostly being raised by female figures. However, isn't that a consequence of men not being there? So to me the lack of masculinity in the household is more of a problem for men to figure out rather than anyone else wouldn't you say?

drbeltane · 2019-01-18T22:05:44+00:00

I think this is a great reason to have more accurate male role models in media that children are exposed to! My 8yo cousin is raised by a single mother (no problem there though, she’s a great mother), but he latched onto male figures in media that don’t provide a good influence- ie, jake paul type youtubers (I cant be around much either, I live far away). Now obviously I don’t think role models in media is the root of this problem or the end all solution, but this stance reminded me of it, especially now that I see the effects on young boys closely. Who else has thoughts on this?

Allomancer_Jak · 2019-01-19T00:15:15+00:00

I hate the term "toxic masculinity". It is just a trigger phrase. What exactly are these "toxic" traits? Ive been called the spectrum of insults because i say that this term applies to men with alpha traits (apparently using the term alpha means im a fucktard who doesnt know what i am talking about.

What the people who use this term want are men who exhibit beta male traits. What do you all think? Agree or disagree this term is pointed at alpha males?

Do_a_pushup · 2019-01-19T03:41:25+00:00

Lets assume the male homosapian will be larger, stronger, and more aggressive than a female one raised in identical circumstances. As in, men are naturally more likely to commit violent crimes than women.

"But wait", feminists say. "Even if we assume nature exists, society can choose to nurture them in a way that compensates for this."

Well we already fucking do. Different roles and expectations, "masculinity" and so on is often there because society already tries to nurture men to be the best they can be. Men are taught to deal with negative emotions, this could be done better but it's not a bad idea. Man are taught to never hit women. Men are taught to channel their energy into sports. Men are taught to take the kinds of risks that benefit society. Men are taught to compete in ways that are either good for society, or at least not too harmful. Men are taught to be good men, and we already do a good job at it most of the time. Thinking the whole system is broken just because it's imperfect, and that you could throw the whole thing out and create a better system is increadibly arrogant.

The prescriptions blank slaters have is to demonise every way men and women are treated differently by society, because they think that roughly 100% of the differences between men and women is due to different roles, expectations, and treatment. In reality, these roles, expectations and treatment are often what makes men behave better.

Attk_Torb_Main · 2019-01-18T18:27:19+00:00

Certainly women are not completely at fault for fathers choosing to not be involved in their children's lives, forcing women them to raise children alone, are they?

HoosierTransplant1 · 2019-01-18T22:13:42+00:00

Alright, then, r/mensrights. That’s it from me. I’ll see you later.

Unsubscribe.

glenndavidmark · 2019-01-19T01:35:07+00:00

It's not the lack of a father because mine was my hero. I always was attracted to men. Society and it's lack of knowledge about the issue will never understand. I really don't care what people think nor was never concerned. I am 62 and all my adult life women have tried their best and think I just haven't had the right woman.My partner of 37 years fell to his death almost five years now. He was the right person for me that actually opened my cold heart.People can be so cruel and are disgusted by the thought of two men as one. The only two people in our lives that accepted our Union were my mom and dad. My parents thought of him as their son. Why is love questioned when it's what everyone wants and desires.

D45_B053 · 2019-01-19T03:54:55+00:00

Paging u/Tim-Thenchanter in regards to an earlier matter we were discussing that involved these very same statistics.

TyDyeReddit · 2019-01-19T04:09:15+00:00

god bless

NotSiZhe · 2019-01-19T10:48:48+00:00

While the importance of stable families for kids is clear, two parent families on average do significantly better, and there aren't enough male teachers, stats should still be checked.

Going by US stats, according to some sources the single parent stat is 27%, not 43% (perhaps referring to unwed mothers, which is closer to 40%, but a clearly different category). Around 80% of single parents are mothers. This would make around 21% of kids raised by single mums.

Other stats say it is around 23%,not 21%.

Some even round that up to 25%.

However, in this post it is 43%, which has been raised to around 50%.

If the stats are inaccurate it is a shame, as recognising male role modals, support, and parenting is both important in itself and in adding balance and context to the otherwise frequently crude depictions of 'toxic masculinity'.

MissDiorPrada · 2019-03-23T16:26:29+00:00

Maybe it's because they don't have a clear good example of what positive Masculinity is as they are exposed to mostly women.

HazardlyGam1ng · 2019-06-12T12:43:21+00:00

Anyways... How's that female president going?

raffu280 · 2019-01-18T19:25:38+00:00

This is just political wordplay. Feminists want men to be passive doormats, not just human beings that also have opinions, perspectives, their own gender culture and behavior - like women already do.

spongebrown · 2019-01-18T22:29:45+00:00

Well the message is sound, that's some fucking terrible maths if you have any more than one teacher during your entire school life.

bluehorserunning · 2019-01-18T23:01:02+00:00

If custody is contested, primary custody generally goes to the primary caretaker. If you want primary custody, or more even custody, spend more time taking care of your kids. Also have arguments based on the best interests of the children rather than on your rights or on pwning the mother.

https://family.findlaw.com/child-custody/preference-for-the-primary-caretaker.html

https://www.verywellfamily.com/factors-used-to-determine-custody-for-fathers-2997132

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115

Excavateandfill · 2019-01-18T18:29:06+00:00

But all men are pedos..aparently

Echelion77 · 2019-01-18T20:22:47+00:00

Yea it took my till the age of 25 to realise the lack of control i had over my thoughts and feelings just like my singe mother.

saviorgoku · 2019-01-18T23:22:40+00:00

Can't it be both?

Basshead404 · 2019-01-18T23:51:17+00:00

Why do we combine these two issues as if they're related? There is an extent/form of masculinity that hurts ourselves and others, just as there's a lack of masculinity that hurts development in young boys.

OblongSnowball · 2019-01-18T20:43:29+00:00

Now compare this to children of lesbian couples. Children just need two parents. Masculinity doesn't factor into it

And again this sub proves they don't actually have an understanding of what toxic masculinity actually is. You just have such a need to identify with that word that nothing with it in it could possibly be bad

LickyBoy · 2019-01-18T18:16:24+00:00

Yes. Absentee fathers are killing this country. Both parents bring something to the table.

hot_fart_burns · 2019-01-18T19:06:20+00:00

Damn good argument.

theDukesofSwagger · 2019-01-18T22:23:33+00:00

10/10 YouTube mods would delete.

macaryl95 · 2019-01-18T23:55:07+00:00

I wish I could just give all my masculinity to you guys. I really don't care for it. You need it more than I do.

ricdesi · 2019-01-19T02:30:55+00:00

"Toxic masculinity is women's fault" is a pretty shit-stupid take.

But hey, everyone in here seems totally okay with equating correlation to causation over entirely made-up statistics, so what do I know. I'm just a guy who has to sigh and put his face in his hands every time you lot decide to blame an internal problem (in this case, being a shitty person via aggression, violence, disrespect, etc.) on an external source (women not solving everything for you).

SirTrumpSupporter · 2019-01-18T22:52:03+00:00

Thought I was in r/popular at first, was sadly mistaken

dem_banka · 2019-01-19T03:09:45+00:00

Who says masculinity is a problem? 🤔

ElecricXplorer · 2019-01-18T22:05:19+00:00

This is a copy of this post with the original comment.

dexfagcasul · 2019-01-19T01:04:02+00:00

Aight this is great and all but we don’t have to keep posting it every week

iDrinkOxygen · 2019-01-18T20:41:25+00:00

REEEEEEE

DootDeeDootDeeDoo · 2019-01-19T02:28:03+00:00

Masculinity doesn't have to be learned from men, so that's not exactly the problem.

BobbyMcFrayson · 2019-01-19T03:28:58+00:00

This is sad. You guys pretend you care about men, but if you did, you would want them to be good humans, not care whether or not they fit some "masculine" box. Smh.

QuasiQwazi · 2019-01-18T21:04:18+00:00

The Y chromosome is disappearing.

Do not mate with women who frown on masculinity. It spells doom for men. A kind of brutish female is evolving who seeks to eliminate competition by targeting masculinity for extinction. These women have no idea they are operating on a biological level. This is an ancient war that we do not want to lose.

Dry-Bicycle-6902 · 2022-11-25T18:17:28+00:00

Toxic masculinity is definitely a problem. Not masculinity itself

Title	"Toxic Masculinity isn't the problem. Lack of Masculinity is."
Author	TheAndredal
Upvotes	3466
Comments	291
Date	January 18, 2019 3:19 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ahbgm4/toxic_masculinity_isnt_the_problem_lack_of/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/toxic-masculinity-isnt-the-problem-lack-of.1182376 https://theredarchive.com/post/1182376

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