Men are being gaslit into thinking they are misogynists and it’s destroying their mental health

dragonbeard91 · 2023-04-21T19:39:03+00:00

Dax Shepard on his podcast once said something like "we need to teach boys they are full of what is basically poison." In reference to testosterone. I believed it for a while until I realized it made me feel terrible about my self and any 'manly' behaviors. After all it took me years to learn to be a leader, to speak up, to do what I know is right no matter what. And now I come to find I'm both harming others and it's a sickness??

Recently I was downvoted for asking for a reminder about a scene where a woman and man interact on Succession. Someone responded "the misogyny here is breathtaking." Really? For asking a question about a scene I can't recall? That's ludicrous.

I sometimes think that Empathy and Shame are two sides of the same coin. We evolved them to control large groups of people without violence. So if you have a strong sense of empathy (caring about others) you will normally have a strong sense of Shame (caring what others feel about you).

I remind my self that the reason being judged hurts me so bad is because I have empathy. Sociopaths don't care about being misogynistic. Neither do narcissists. We are suffering the side effects of being human and having a heart.

Matt_the_digger · 2023-04-21T20:19:22+00:00

This has been playing on my mind for a while now because I'm kinda worried how this could be the world my son grows up in, especially when we are also white. I'm worried that not only is he going to get told he is a misogynist all his life but that he is racist as well. Especially with tensions rising, in my country, between the indigenous people and the descendants of the colonizers. The term "racist" is being thrown around very freely in the political spectrum at the moment.

I'm not the best at getting what I'm trying to say across to people which usually just makes me not bother. I tried to explain my concerns to my wife and was kinda just brushed off.

It's kinda making me a bit jaded. I thought the Left was all about equality and solidarity but it seems like we are at war with each other more than we are with the Right.

benscrolling · 2023-04-21T21:31:09+00:00

I've had thoughts like this recently and struggled to find a good place to share them. I've begun engaging feminists who participate in this kind of narrative (on Medium) but it doesn't seem like they're able to comprehend that discrimination against an entire sex is, in fact, the definition of sexism. On the other hand, some are openly sexist and simply assert that men deserve it. Vague, nebulous accusations about biology or world history serve as justifications to label all men as problematic, or even violent.

I grew up in a time when "isms" were supposed to be declining, or already gone. But now we see this harmful rhetoric from defensive feminists damaging young men and driving them towards maladaptive solutions. I understand misogyny exists, and have even heard that it is on the rise. But I suspect this is largely a reaction to the feminist superculture attacking vulnerable men with messages like these.

lolthankstinder · 2023-04-21T21:43:21+00:00

Feminism even gaslights women into thinking they are misogynists. It's so freaking toxic. I have a pretty decent example of how the toxic culture of feminism might silence and discourage less extreme/crazy feminists that might actually be motivated by gender equality and not misandry:

I got banned from commenting in r/AskFeminists because someone posted an article about a study saying that something like ~50% of women have gotten choked during sex. I asked if the study distinguished consensual and non-consensual and mentioned I had zero interest in choking but have been asked to several times in the past by women because of the expectations that women often place upon men. I was then awarded by someone with the text:

I’m ashamed, as a cishet woman who is a feminist, that the comment you’re replying to is so dramatically upvoted and very few people are agreeing with your comment. You’re very right, the person you’re replying to is very wrong, and I appreciate you sharing your experience. You probably figured it wouldn’t be received well and posted it anyway and I appreciate that. Feminists need to remember, really, the pressures that men have and the over the top expectations that the patriarchy has inflicted on them. Portraying all men as violent because of porn is disingenuous, wrong, and HURTS FEMINISM. Thank you for speaking out. Men and women need more men like you.

The dramatically upvoted commenter then straight up lied in their reply claiming the stat was about non-consensual choking. So, naturally, I looked into the study and it turned out that, not only was that wrong, the study found that MEN WERE MORE OFTEN NON-CONSENSUALLY CHOKED. I pointed that out and said "this is why I have trust issues with feminism y’all are a bunch of misandrists trying to find ways to hate men" aaaaannd was quickly banned from commenting with the mod saying "you can leave then". What a lovely bunch.

I kept chatting with the award giver for a bit and she seemed cool though! She later mentioned:

But Jesus that’s all ridiculous. They’re calling a fetish misogynistic right now, too. These feminists are unlike any I’ve encountered, I’m prob just gonna unsub.

So, I feel like this is a good example of how the culture of feminism promotes misandry and extremism. Those actually motivated by gender equality aren't allowed to speak, or if they do and disagree, they are demonized as having internalized misogyny or some other toxic cult shame tactic.

Oncefa2 · 2023-04-21T22:07:47+00:00

The fact that calling someone a misogynist carries so much weight, as an insult, says something about how much we actually tolerate it in society.

hotpotato138 · 2023-04-21T20:36:47+00:00

They shouldn't be gaslighting. We shouldn't internalize what they say.

Langland88 · 2023-04-22T01:37:48+00:00

Well for what it's worth. There's been a growing trend on YouTube and other social media platforms that are pushing back against this gaslighting. While some YouTube personalities lean on the Right-Wing spectrum, there are even some in the Left-Wing spectrum that are pushing against this gaslighting too. For example Clownfish TV is one of those YouTube channels fighting back against this gaslighting and they have even said they consider themselves more left-wing numerous times despite people labeling them as conservative.

However with that said, as a nerd myself, I have noticed in the last 10 years I feel like I've been being pushed aside as a target audience since I am a straight white male and we straight white males for whatever reason are always "problematic." That's been my main frustration with all this. I stopped going to Anime/Nerdy conventions because it felt like walking on eggshells and the fun went away in the process. But I'm kind of glad we're starting to push back to some extent.

OrangleyOrange · 2023-04-21T20:36:00+00:00

cognitive dissonance is rampant in men, I might make a sperate post about it but its one of the biggest reasons why a lot of men are suffering and just feel not connected to the world theyre living in.

Like just the idea of suicide is evidence enough, a world youre naturally born into turns into a world you feel like was a mistake you were born into

Cheesy_toe · 2023-04-21T20:36:18+00:00

I’m glad r/saltierthancrait exists. I feel like the Star Wars subreddit has people from Disney on the mod team. The same goes for most subreddits for any franchise or TV show which is frustrating.

Elizabeth Banks, the director of Terminator DF and a few others have said that men who dislike their movies, hate women. It’s completely asinine. The content they are producing are just garbage.

Ok_Line_886 · 2023-04-22T03:06:35+00:00

You start to notice your local bookstore stocking books with titles like “Testosterone: The Story of the Hormone that Dominates and Divides Us” (a real title) LEAVE that bookstore and never go back.

Welp, I'm never going into any bookstore ever again, I guess.

zaph239 · 2023-04-22T09:27:39+00:00

The power of shaming is too tempting for the left. Having a real political debate is difficult, it forces you to think about your positions and justify them. It is much easier to deploy terms like sexist and misogynist and shut people down.

The danger with that, is such words lose their power. You see this with rise of populists and the far right in Europe. People with nuanced and moderate positions on issues such immigration were repeatedly told they were racist by the left and eventually they said f**k it. If you're going to call us racist whatever we do, we don't care about that label anymore.

The same is going to happen with terms like sexist and misogynist. If feminist lump people who dislike Mary Sue characters in Star Wars with people who genuinely hate and abuse women. Then the terms lose all their power and people will stop listening to feminists.

This unwillingness to embrace free speech and abuse of the power of shaming words, is one of the reasons the left is loosing election after election in the Western world.

decidedlysticky23 · 2023-04-22T11:20:14+00:00

I fully agree. Companies have pushed boundaries so far because we tolerated it. If we stop patronising companies which insult us, they’ll stop.

AnhedoniaRecovery · 2023-04-22T16:55:34+00:00

Love you for this post OP.

Because I have sexual trauma, I’m uncomfortable in my body and have an extremely hard time finding relationships. Astoundingly, I am a human with a need for connection and this inability can be a painful insecurity. Looking for some community to relate to, I pretty quickly saw how toxic any incel related thing was and I didn’t identify with it.

What astounded me though, was the communities of 100k+ members who’s only purpose was to make fun of those incel communities which seemed pretty clear to me were just hotbeds of emotional stuntedness and mental illness. I suddenly felt like to pick a side, but I wasn’t comfortable with either.

Unfortunately it seems like every topic on the internet just has to get polarized into 2 camps with no nuance allowed. I began to wonder if I actually was an incel or just actually hated woman because well hey I feel lonely sometimes and am pretty incompetent at navigating romance, so I guess I must just be some fucking weirdo loser who deserves it, according to the only other viewpoint I could find.

Ultimately it all just stems from trying to identify with faceless mobs on the internet, which will never work out for you. Even this sub will undoubtedly reach a breaking point where it gets too many users, polarized to one extreme and is unsustainable. Just know you are fallible, but will try to do your best. Trust that your intentions are good and well mannered, and follow them. Make time to detoxify from society, culture, the internet, and do the inner work that most people are afraid of.

Culture is broken, it doesn’t make you weird for recognizing that, it means your authentic. Seek solace in nothing but people, never in groups or identities.

CzechoslovakianJesus · 2023-04-21T20:47:54+00:00

In the case of Star Wars the accusations are usually from either Disney shills who might even be paid to slander detractors and feminists of either sex who will defend anything with a woman's face on it no matter what.

SaturnsHexagons · 2023-04-22T16:01:00+00:00

Yeah, this type of generalization and rhetoric, especially when it gets bioessentialist with Testosterone, is super dangerous. Anyone who says X demographic is all inherently bad has there own problems with bigotry.

Luchadorgreen · 2023-04-22T08:53:26+00:00

I used to internalize these toxic messages when I was a teenager, but not now. There is no way these messages would ever damage my mental health at my age, which is nice, but I worry for young men and boys like you do.

BKEnjoyerV2 · 2023-04-23T04:01:23+00:00

Well it’s a challenge when all you get when you explain you have trouble, especially in the romantic and social areas, is that you’re an incel or irredeemable or you must be fucked up or something and your problems are fake and all that

coffeeinvenice · 2023-04-23T04:07:42+00:00

Good advice! Anti-male gaslighting is part of a concerted, systemic, group effort to make you feel weak.

IMHO, masculinity is something essential in the universe, like the process of photosynthesis or the water molecule. It exists, it is part of the universe. Maleness is part of all vertebrates, all mammals. So having to account for it or having to justifying its existence is like trying to give an ethical rationale or apology for the existence of wood. Wood just exists. It's presence in the world doesn't need to be justified. And there is nothing inherently bad about wood. What DOES demand justification is assuming wood, water, or maleness has to give a reason for why it should be permitted to exist.

There are some males who are not very good people. There are some females who are not very good people. But they are not good people because (hopefully) they are on their way to becoming better people; they are not bad because of their gender. Their gender does not determine whether they are good or bad. Any rumors to the contrary are just irrational nonsense.

Definitions of masculinity may change. Or more precisely, the behaviors associated with being a human male, or the behavior patterns that symbolically represent it, may change. In many cultures undergoing a painful physical or scarring procedure while stoically enduring pain, such as circumcision, was a behavior or ritual that symbolically represented masculinity. That ritual has fallen by the wayside in most modern cultures but it is still practiced in some indigenous cultures.

The rituals and symbolic meanings of masculinity may change over time or vary between cultures. But masculinity itself persists because it is part of the universe.

In modern life, there is tremendous freedom of opportunity for the individual male to decide for themselves what it means to be a man, to be the man that you are and want to be. For example, letting yourself become a victim of paternity fraud is, frankly speaking, unmanly. Having your own opinions about manhood and standing your ground in face of opposition - most of which is ephemeral bullshit anyway - is a manly thing to do.

You can define and perform your own rituals that symbolically represent your masculinity: make yourself smarter, make yourself more productive, make yourself into someone or something that others admire and want to emulate. Make yourself stronger. Manage your time and money better.

But most importantly, as you said above, put people and things that gaslight you and make you weak out of your life and mind. Don't do things or pay attention to things that make you weak. Much of pop culture, celebrity culture, advertising, outrage bait, etc., is designed and intended gaslight you into making you feel bad about being male.

Just don't put any energy there. And don't worry that you are somehow 'missing out' on society or pop culture. There are plenty of other forms of entertainment and culture out there that are not out to attack you.

Awesometjgreen · 2023-04-22T00:45:07+00:00

I wanted to add that a lot of this is simply a internet thing and not so much an irl thing. Reddit in particular is a pretty toxic website that will automatically assume any OP is in the wrong whenever they post without even engaging with the person. It's well known that social media and the internet at large has a negativity bias. "Controversial" headlines and video thumbnails get more clicks and views, so most algorithms are programmed to push negativity into your face.

I've been accused of being a lazy idiot for being a film major (technically IDS major mostly taking business and English courses but whatever) and also accused of being an asshole when I opened about my struggles to make friends (on progressive leftwing subs mind you).

When I started limiting my time on discord and reddit my mental health improved drastically. So if you're a guy and you're struggling with all these negative comments just remember to limit your time on the internet and touch grass. Irl people can still be asses at times but not like on the internet.

We are living in a time when people have little power to change all of the systemic political issues we're facing, and turn to lashing out at anything they can as a result. Try not to let it get to you.

Vegetable_Ad1732 · 2023-04-22T03:36:39+00:00

I dunno, I must be different. When I read stuff like that, I just get pissed. No way I actually consider it seriously. I guess if you take that crap seriously, then yeah, don't read it.

DemoniteBL · 2023-04-25T02:47:55+00:00

I've also been told that disliking Rey as a character was sexist. lol Liking Ahsoka though? Doesn't count.

coffeeinvenice · 2023-04-29T15:59:02+00:00

IMHO, people who make this claim that testosterone is inherently "toxic" - especially men who make this claim - are using hormones as an excuse for their own bad behavior. Presumably, Dwayne Johnson, Keanu Reeves and Terry Crews are loaded with testosterone, but by all accounts they are nice people.

witchboimoon · 2023-04-22T20:32:39+00:00

Anyway so this coward just prevented me from responding because he can only cut and run but heres my last point on this issue. @oggyb This sub is for men to talk about our issues and advocate for ourselves, not for transactivists to shout us down as bigots for not being attracted to them. We are not both complaining about the same thing: I want recognition and respect for gay men, this person wants gay men to change our innate sexuality to suit their entitlement and narcissism. This is not a two sides debate. We don’t have to disagree agreeably, in fact I actually would argue its the opposite. The Suffragettes blew up buildings of the politicians who refused them and be*t up policemen and did arson, the Black Panthers used fire-arms, every minority group in history that got anywhere didn’t get there with a polite chat and a spirited debate among gents. I’m a man (an actual, real, gay man) and I will not be talked down to, condescended to, or mocked for my sexuality, certainly not from a blue-haired homophobic transactivist, and certainly not from you.

Potential-Salad3910 · 2023-04-28T19:06:30+00:00

there’s been a considerable push in all these societies to imply that men are all inherently misogynistic

In spain, some ministers and high-ranking officials have made repeated statements in this regard. Curiously, they often point the finger at leftist men "because they think they are not misogynists just because they are leftists".

But well, we are talking about a country that establishes that all men are inherently sexist by law since 2004, in addition to having gender courts, without presumption of innocence, etc.

Men are being gaslit into thinking they are misogynists and it’s destroying their mental health

Comments

Bonus: "Dim world theory of psychopathy"??

Title	Men are being gaslit into thinking they are misogynists and it’s destroying their mental health
Author	knightfluttershy
Upvotes	341
Comments	140
Date	April 21, 2023 6:38 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/12udvl7/men_are_being_gaslit_into_thinking_they_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/men-are-being-gaslit-into-thinking-they-are.1215381 https://theredarchive.com/post/1215381