Should we really be mocking feminists at every turn?

GenderNeutralLanguag · 2015-08-01T22:26:12+00:00

Warren Farrel started advocating for men under the banner of "men's liberation" as a feminist more than 40 years ago now. He got almost no where. It was Paul Elam and his "Fuck Their Shit Up" approch to the gender equality debate that has gotten the MHRM the attention it now has.

Being soft spoken and trying to not step on toes has been tried and it failed. Screaming loudly and stomping on peoples feet is working.

LooneyXLovegood · 2015-08-01T20:08:29+00:00

"I see a lot of posts on this subreddit talking about every mistake and fallacy that is made by a feminist before proceeding to mock them for it."

Feminism should be mocked. Because it's a complete joke nowadays.

Let's take a look at recent feminist concerns:

-Men spreading their legs on public transport -The shirts of Male Scientists -The jokes of Male Scientists -The word "Bossy"

Please. It's already a parody at this point.

MRA-automatron-2kb · 2015-08-01T21:11:27+00:00

The mocking of the feminist on this sub Reddit has been a great de-stressor for me.

A lot of men grow up brainwashed into believing the feminists' and tradcons' propoganda that men are second class unworthy servants or that we are dangerous time bombs.

When a man realizes that he wasted years of his life brainwashed, humour and mocking is much better than being bitter. Staying bitter would be another feminist victory.

RELTIH88 · 2015-08-01T23:20:08+00:00

Yes. Mocking them is the best way for people to turn away from feminism.

Captaincastle · 2015-08-01T19:42:46+00:00

We absolutely should mock feminism as much as possible because it deserves mockery, and it's an effective tool.

Whether or not this is the venue for it is a valid concern, but ultimately it's not mutually exclusive with your image of men's rights.

levelate · 2015-08-01T20:00:45+00:00

you mean because of all the good will they throw our way?

T34_B4991n5 · 2015-08-01T22:59:28+00:00

Yes.

TheDude41 · 2015-08-01T21:28:53+00:00

Being jerks has been such a successful strategy for feminists, I don't see why men should do otherwise.

I think you are being far too idealistic. Naive really.

BruceCampbell123 · 2015-08-01T21:38:59+00:00

Mocking. No. Pointing out obvious flaws in their ideology? Yes. Some might see those as the same thing. We can't help those people.

Sanguifer · 2015-08-01T22:00:51+00:00

Well, I do think this subreddit could use a sticky on top, outlining what MRAs want to have changed. I'd advise to divide it into hard issues (the ones that can hardly be argued against: Right to bodily integrity, reproductive rights, the sexism of the draft. It's extremely hard to argue against those three in any way) and soft issues (everything else that we can actually potentially argue about). That being said...

I am sure You have come across the phenomenon known as "both men and women still face many issues". Often with the "and women still have it worse than men" flavour.

I make a point every time to ask: What issues do women face? What rights do men have that women lack? And I only get three types of answers: 1) The factually incorrect ones (Wage gap, rape culture), 2) issues that affect both men and women (domestic violence, sexism in society, rigid gender roles, sexual objectification and whatnot), 3) Non-answers (vague appeals to Patriarchy, women still not equal, toxic masculinity, MRAs are all misogynists, ad hominem attacks).

There are a lot of people out there who will say that of course women have issues and they are important issues and we should focus on them, yet they can't name even one that could be concretely adressed.

Every time we make fun of feminists for bemoaning "manspreading" or focusing on some pitiful first-world problem, we deconstruct it as a valid women's rights movement. If we don't do that, people will keep thinking that Men's Rights is at best a gender-opposite equivalent to feminism - and go on to give support to feminism first because, well, that one is about women after all and women have it so much worse in our society aaaaand we're right back at the beginning.

Deconstructing feminism is essential in order to tackle feminist-inspired things like the Duluth model, the focus on women as victims / men as perpetrators of DV and rape, the focus on FGM and dismissal of MGM etc etc. This is nearly impossible as long as feminism and its offshots are venerated as the default authority on gender issues.

And what DO You actually expect to see here? Articles about MRM progress? Well, You do. It's just that those articles are rare, because progress is slow - in part, again, thanks to feminists. Or just an endless repetition of "Circumcision is bad, lack of reproductive rights is bad, prison rape is bad"... yeah, most of us already know. Those things aren't getting any better or worse, they're a constant.

Deansdale · 2015-08-02T07:37:26+00:00

Don't confuse feminism with women. We love women and we mock feminism, because feminism is the retarded notion that men oppress women - something that can't be done unconsciously, so it's directly implying that all men are evil. We should not be 'accepting' ideologies that are patently false, hateful and harmful.

Tedesche · 2015-08-01T20:50:34+00:00

I agree a lot of members on this sub go a bit far with the feminism-hating, but I think you see pretty much the exact same pattern in any sociopolitical sub. In other words, this is just a normal Reddit phenomenon, not something this sub is guilty of in particular. In general, I'm for more thought-out, considered, temperate commentary and posts across all of Reddit, period, but I don't think it's particularly realistic thing to expect. A lot of the posts here are about how men are still being discriminated against in rather blatant ways, while the rest of society fails to notice, ignores it, and is largely unsympathetic. That makes people angry, and so they write angry comments venting their frustration, which often comes out as hate of feminism—the perceived (and actual, in many cases) enemy of this movement. Calls for us to rise above this standard and "be the bigger person" are nice and all, but I wouldn't expect it to happen if I were you.

Lethn · 2015-08-01T20:14:18+00:00

You know what? No, believe it or not gender equality means that people can be equally mocked no matter who they are. When you have feminists ostracising their own simply either for standing up for men or questioning what these misandrists are saying I will happily call them out on their bullshit.

Freedom of speech is non-negotiable, if feminists don't want to be mocked they should improve themselves. As for being labelled a hate group, that's merely a tactic they're trying to use to scare people like you into submission.

When feminists start caring about men, stop labelling us all as rapists and murderers and stop genuinely attacking people who disagree with them, then I will be more polite, until then they can fuck off and anyone who actually agrees with those morons.

uncle_klopek · 2015-08-01T20:16:44+00:00

Absolutely.

We tried the gentle fact based reaching out method. We tried appealing to a sense of justice and compassion. It failed miserably. Feminists must be made the laughing stocks of their communities and shunned by all of society. Bigots deserve nothing less.

Sylv_HS · 2015-08-01T21:45:45+00:00

The basic idea is that very often, we have to argue against feminist views (that dominate the public discourse or made the law) to actually promote MR. That's okay and we need to do it. However, constantly bashing feminists at every corner, even those not related with the MRM, doesn't necessarily help the MRM. If anything, we get labeled as a hate group the more we focus on hammering them.

Feminist pretend gender equality, but by working 99% of the time on women's issues, they send a clear message that men are second-class citizen. Likewise, if we, in the MRM, focus on attacking feminists even on issues unrelated to the MRM, then we send a message that bashing them for the sake of it is a core part of the MRM, possibly more important than promoting men's rights itself. Is this what we want? This is debatable and an interesting discussion we can have.

edit: changed the end of a sentence

edit2: removed my position

RobertJay115 · 2015-08-01T22:19:23+00:00

You would of got banned and probably removed from reddit all together if you'd of posted this on a feminist sub reddit , the fact that the moderators haven't banned you here is the community being polite and respectful.

MeatyTux · 2015-08-01T20:03:14+00:00

Pointing out the flaws in their message is effective in swaying the people that can have their eyes open and awareness expanded. MRM will be a hate movement no matter what actions it takes, as any message that is not inline with entrenched and aggressive western academic feminism is treated as harmful. Just look at what they do to people who are only in 95% agreement, they are demonized.

This battle is not fought in isolation. Given the incredible reach of the media's feminist placard-carrying a response of assertive, polite, specific refutation even if seen as mocking, in places like news paper comment threads is the best way to be heard and win hearts and minds one by one.

augustfell · 2015-08-01T23:29:24+00:00

we will have to be more accepting of other people's thoughts and ideologies.

that is, unless those ideologies are being crammed down our throats through bullying, legislation and administrative power. Then it makes sense to criticize, no?

Fiorbeth · 2015-08-02T00:23:12+00:00

The problem that leads to this kind of mentality where everything that gets said here is due to the fact that realistically mens rights is a fairly new movement. Compared to feminism that has had years to form as such it has not gathered the same level of following or organisation.

The other problem that leads to this is that realistically the mens rights movement is a reactionary movement to feminism. It sees feminism doesn't like some of the ways it is doing things and so reacts accordingly. This leads to the majority of the discussion being focused on feminism rather than mens rights.

Given time I think that a lot of this will reduce and it will become more about mens rights as the movement grows/matures and as people join it due to seeing the problems that men face need dealing with, rather than joining when they are simply scorned by feminism.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2015-08-02T13:07:16+00:00

Feminism has, unfortunately, put itself in opposition to men's rights. So they have to be criticized.

It would be like advancing black civil rights without discussing segregationists.

2015-08-02T13:36:22+00:00

Yes. Because they deserve scorn and vicious lampooning at every opportunity.

Christ knows, reasoned debate has never worked.

DavidByron2 · 2015-08-02T15:09:58+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement. Most sexism is caused by feminism these days. You're ignorant of all this but feminists constantly lobby for horrifically sexist laws and they get them too.

ralphswanson · 2015-08-02T17:32:21+00:00

Venting is good. This is one of the few places that one can talk honestly about feminism.

In school, feminist propaganda was taught practically every class: English lit, sociology, statistics, business and law. We were taught the Duluth model, the gender wage gap lies, and even the rule of thumb. Women were enraged and these false injustices while the men cowered. However, if you spoke out against this, your marks suffered. So I now feel the need to tell the truth.

ghebert001 · 2015-08-01T21:46:10+00:00

Feminism is a hate movement...at the very least, it deserves to be mocked.

SilencingNarrative · 2015-08-02T01:35:17+00:00

The central defining belief of feminism is that men as a group took advantage of women as a group for the bulk of history. In other words, that men are morally inferior to women.

Until a significant fraction of feminists no longer believe that, I think mockery is a reasonsble response.

IvanDagomilov · 2015-08-02T01:43:55+00:00

The obvious jokes write themselves. And they often do take women's study classes...

belil569 · 2015-08-02T06:21:16+00:00

Ignorant ideas desire ridicule.

JayBopara · 2015-08-02T12:11:08+00:00

Stop trying to conflate feminism with women. Feminism is an ideology of misandry and hate. Women are adult human beings classified by sex. Now not all feminists are misandric scumbags, but the important ones, the ones who influence policy and law are almost always these types of man-hating cunts.

roharareddit · 2015-08-02T14:04:10+00:00

Short answer: YES!

AloysiusC · 2015-08-02T16:37:48+00:00

Karen made a great video answering this question - which, btw, we get a LOT.

LoLThatsjustretarded · 2015-08-02T22:37:00+00:00

I see that the feminists have gilded you...

eatingbutter · 2015-08-02T23:45:26+00:00

Woman here. This is my first time at the sub and I was expecting a lot of bullshit, but the vast majority of the things I've seen on this sub (thus far) seem like legitimate issues to me. I agree with a lot of you that the men and boys in these stories are being treated in unfair and sexist ways. I've been feeling pretty fed up with the way that many mainstream feminists bash men (even if they're making a point I agree with) and I appreciate your effort to keep an egalitarian mindset.

If dude on this subreddit want to bash women or feminists, then whatever. It's their sub. But I appreciate your efforts at being magnanimous.

ThePigmanAgain · 2015-08-01T20:27:55+00:00

Mockery works. It discredits the opponent and makes people less likely to take them seriously, which, incidentally, is why feminists spend so much time mocking MRAs. You are not a regular here, have not posted here before, yet you presume to tell us how to do things while using the pronoun "we" as if you are anything other than an outsider. There is only one response to such behavior -- get stuffed, and take your concern with you.

xNOM · 2015-08-01T20:30:37+00:00

All stupid people should be called out, period. Stop getting hung up on team "feminist" and start paying attention to the facts.

jak_22 · 2015-08-01T20:30:17+00:00

They do a very good job of mocking themselves most of the time if you ask me...

brokage · 2015-08-01T20:54:19+00:00

The problem isn't mocking Feminism. Picking holes in the conceptual tools that feminism uses is a healthy part of rational/intellectual/academic discourse.

The problem, for me, is the amount of sloppy reasoning, both for this subreddit and for the feminism subreddit. Mensrights and Feminism are an intellectual wasteland setup for point scoring, mud slinging and gender based antagonism.

ZimbaZumba · 2015-08-01T23:52:02+00:00

troll

Ace678 · 2015-08-02T00:25:26+00:00

Should Jews be more accepting of Nazis?

jimmywiddle · 2015-08-02T01:00:27+00:00

You sound like a feminist troll.

"Please don't do this"

"The Men's Rights Movement (at least in my mind) is about bringing to the table a lot of problems men have which have been overshadowed by women's"

Then you are incredibly ignorant if you can't tell that it's feminists lies and bullshit that has allowed this to happen. And to not stand up against them, means you are inviting that BS to continue to overshadow mens issues.

Or to put it another way....

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Klytemaestra · 2015-08-02T10:28:25+00:00

Go to hell. I will NEVER tolerate feminism.

I_fight_demons · 2015-08-01T20:22:12+00:00

I find the antagonism of feminism tiresome as well. There are certainly awful strains of feminism that need to be critically examined. But this sub tends to focus only on the worst examples and ignore those feminist concerns that are legitimate. It's as bad as the many feminist discussions, blogs and subreddits that keep trying to shoehorn Red Pill stuff into the men's movement. Everyone needs to step back and stop treating gender discussions as a zero sum game.

derram_2 · 2015-08-02T07:47:01+00:00

Feminists regularly lie about the MRM to stop organizations from forming at colleges.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bvOxsnvSXs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_X4DkwA_Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0fXSnwZd2c

BetterBadIdeas · 2015-08-01T22:46:00+00:00

Bad behavior continues if it's not called out for its ridiculousness and logical inconsistencies. Is the the best place for it? Maybe, maybe not.

saystruethings · 2015-08-02T01:31:37+00:00

When I see shit like this my only response is to laugh at yet another retarded thing they are doing.

stop_stalking_me · 2015-08-02T03:52:06+00:00

not about claiming women have none or attacking people who claim they do.

I don't think you'll find many people here who do this. Most MRAs will not deny that women have problems and that they should be addressed. We just want men's issues to get equal attention and dedicated places for their discussion.

sharpandpointless · 2015-08-02T04:47:12+00:00

Only when it's productive IMO. Then again there is at least one sub soley dedicated to mockery of this one, and a list of users posting in this sub is being compiled as we speak for God-only-knows-what reason.

aussietoads · 2015-08-02T06:05:22+00:00

Yes.

CountVonVague · 2015-08-02T07:32:00+00:00

I would be nice to see a concise list of Female-centered political policies vs Male-centered political policies over the last 50 years, compare where societies priorities lay vs what groups we let slip by the wayside. Sugar-coating and good-copping is the proper way address the Feminist Establishment, to convince them that the "problematic past" of Feminism that grew from "wealth entitlement" and "female privilege" was allowed to foster academic bigotry and sell that as something that needs to be "unpacked and checked". Turn their own made-up words around on them, forced Feminists to look in the mirror and see what damage they've done in the name of Equality.

Convince women that a movement whose roots sprouted in a time soon after Italians began to be considered White cannot possibly be without it's unexamined flaws, that no matter how many new prefixes you add the word "Feminist" is still as inherently biased as the word "Masculinist".

slamchop · 2015-08-02T18:31:41+00:00

I'm seriously bothered reading through these comments. I think this subreddit has become way to toxic.

We attack feminism because they label all men as predators, while at the same time we label all feminists as crazy SJWs.

Feminism at its core is helpful to men's rights because it seeks to break down socially constructed roles that place men in the position of provider/breadwinner/etc. Sure, we can disagree with the radicals in the feminist movement, but the fact that most people on here are so consumed with hatred for the entire movement is evidence to me that this place is not for serious change but a sounding board for hate from childish and scorned men.

You have to admit that men and women, feminism and men's rights, have more in common than they have differences. Something that will never happen with most of the people here.

I'll continue to advocate for men in underrepresented areas of life, but I'm out, I've unsubscribed.

MRSPArchiver · 2015-08-01T19:37:00+00:00

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mochacola · 2015-08-01T23:11:34+00:00

I think mocking feminist movement in here is just for good fun, and you are right, not productive as in preaching to the choir. But still fun. However, mocking feminist movement in other public forums, is a duty, not just for the sake of MRA, but for the sake of next generation of kids.

Less young girls subscribing to that cult, better for both boys and girls. No more seeing boys as defected humans and girls seeing themselves as victims. And maybe, if there's enough negative branding, less young girls going into that cult, means closing down a few college classes that breed radicals who will protests against MRAs, making threats that drive up security fees during conferences. That would be nice. And who knows, maybe enough courses close down due to lack of students may even force faculty staff to shrink. All great.

None of feminist rhetoric should remain unchallenged. None.

Wargame4life · 2015-08-02T10:42:06+00:00

rather than a hate movement as we are sometimes portrayed, we will have to be more accepting of other people's thoughts and ideologies. Please, share your thoughts on the matter.

nope, the only yard stick anyone should use in adopting an ideology or thought is reason and logic.

unfortunately MRA is so heavily populated by bitter children with the intellectual capability of a gnat, they make every issue a "us versus them" and will upvote and support any argument no matter how ridiculous in support of men and downvote any argument that they "feel" is not supporting their claim.

for example if someone posts a bullshit stat totally out of context making wild claims, to the top of the pile it goes in thunderous applause, if someone posts a valid critique identifying why its bullshit and a nonsense argument downvote brigade begins.

This sub is a total joke in terms of logical well reasoned comments , so people with the ability and value to add, simply don't bother.

why waste putting time and effort explaining something as complex as perception and societal influence and group dynamics etc to a bunch of simple children who need everything to be diluted into a "Goodies and baddies"

MRA's are rightly mocked in the same way feminsts are because those that identify as such in society are usually extremely poor both socially and intellectually.

Im not MRA or feminist, I simply hate hypocrisy and people using bullshit and deception, so while feminist are hilariously idiotic in this regard, dont go thinking MRA are infinitely better, some of the shit i have seen is fucking embarrassing.

MRA has its "professional victims" which want sympathy and the world to recognise their suffering so much they make bullshit claims out of nothing.

the only real value MRA has is it is pretty good at calling out the bullshit and nonsense the feminist pull, if it could consistently apply that to some of its own claims that would be much better.

Neo_Techni · 2015-08-01T20:20:32+00:00

No, it makes you look as bad as the anti gamergate websites. If you never mentioned feminism again, you'd be better for it. You can still mention what they do, but never attribute it to/blame feminism.

Title	Should we really be mocking feminists at every turn?
Author	Firestopper69
Upvotes	35
Comments	191
Date	August 1, 2015 7:36 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3ffps2/should_we_really_be_mocking_feminists_at_every/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/should-we-really-be-mocking-feminists-at-every.974206 https://theredarchive.com/post/974206

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