U.S. Navy Finds That Circumcision Does Not Prevent HIV or STIs

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Obviously the CDC's most recent statement is more recent. That blog entry is from 2011, but the report it's referencing is from 2004. There were references at the beginning:

Thomas AG, Bakhireva LN, Brodine SK, Shaffer RA; International Conference on AIDS (15th : 2004 : Bangkok, Thailand). http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA458066
Int Conf AIDS. 2004 Jul 11-16; 15: abstract no. TuPeC4861. Naval Health Research Center, DHAPP, San Diego, CA, United States http://www.iasociety.org/Abstracts/A2176002.aspx or http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/thomas1/

Thomas (2004) is part of the partial list of research in /r/intactivists/wiki that found male circumcision either did not reduce HIV risk or increased risk.

Chao, 1994 - male surgery significantly increased risk to women
Thomas, 2004 - no protection in a high-risk population
Connelly, 2005 - no protection for black men, only insignificant protection for white men
Shaffer, 2007 - no protection by traditional circumcision
Turner, 2007 - no protection to women
Baeten, 2009 - no protection to women
Wawer, 2009 - RCT found male circumcision increased risk to women by 60%
Westercamp, 2010 - no protection to men in Kenya
Darby, 2011 - no benefit in Australia
Brewer, 2011 - circumcised youth at greater risk in Mozambique
Auvert, 2001 - 68% higher odds of HIV infection among circumcised men (just below statistical significance)
Rodriguez-Diaz, 2012 - 27% higher risk of HIV in circumcised men in Puerto Rico (P = 0.02)

If MRAs would like to be persuasive instead of just argumentative, it would help to cite sources as often as possible. And avoid terms and ideas like mutilation. Yes, destroying healthy foreskin without consent is technically mutilation but this is like any involuntary non-therapeutic cultural body modification.

[–]thegreatbrah 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MooseKnocker 57 points58 points59 points 11 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[+]wayfarout 11 years ago [recovered] (25 children) | Copy Link

Because a trade group that makes a profit from circumcision said so under the guise of actual medical advise.

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[–]circuitology 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Thanks a lot.

I'm only on the first page and already:

However, data now indicate that male circumcision reduces the risk of male HIV acquisition through penile-vaginal sex.

It would help if you could point out where this document claims that circumcision prevents HIV/STIs. It mentions it as a goal but never claims it as a reality.

Maybe the issue is that people can't read or understand what they are reading (not a personal attack!) and assume that if the words are there, then so is the meaning?

EDIT: By the way, I am totally against infant circumcision. But I don't think it's right or fair to say that the CDC is being dishonest. I suspect that the results of the studies are credible, but I think it's ultimately a different argument to the one we should be having. It's not a question of whether it reduces the risk of infection - I mean, for one thing why would a baby/child need protecting from HIV or STIs anyway? It's a question of consent, a fact that a lot of people seem to somehow miss while they argue about whether it helps reduce the risk of HIV etc.

[–]aPseudonymPho 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I should mention that your confusion may be one of semantics. When we say HIV prevention, no one is talking about true prevention. It's meant in the most common of medical senses as seen in that report, HIV acquisition risk reduction, and in this case one that is quite significant in magnitude. It is referring to HIV prevention strategy, in which, acquisition risk reduction is a large piece. This is not where the honesty and transparency of the CDC / AAP come into question.

Where it is being critiqued, is for both organizations complete and utter failure to even begin to address this topic in a complete fashion, with the standards of modern medical practice as a baseline guide. The paper presupposes circumcision as an inherent reality boys will face, and builds from that base assumption it's case.

There are a few other aspects, but ultimately the intactivist gripe with the CDC and AAP is that they do not tackle this procedure from the same perspectives with see with any other procedure that ablates healthy functional tissue. To be more specific, is it not given the consideration that destroying healthy tissue is something mandated against in basically every facet of modern medicine except in very strict and specific circumstances, within which prophylaxis imposed on an individual does not fall.

Edit: I agree by the way, that the question of whether circumcision reduces HIV risk isn't significantly relevant to the validity of the procedure as a neonatal prophylactic. The question isn't, "does circumcision prevent disease" it is, "Is circumcision the best, safest, and most efficacious method of disease prevention?" which is a true test of ethical medical practice. Unfortunately, it fails miserably to answer that question affirmatively. I think however it is important to answer all of the arguments in this debate thoroughly and completely where possible.

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[+]S1GMA 11 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Hey since you're not serious I'll not be serious with you.

I hope you get fucked with the business end of a drywall knife.

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Not really sadly, I'm from Sweden so the most I have are some Swedish sources.

Doing some research about male circumcision, foreskins, and all that jazz is really scary because you see the vast differences in facts. We don't circumcise boys here and our national doctors association has actually demanded the practice being made illegal on several occasions.

So before posting this I did a search and came across This very good article about foreskins and the difference between physiological and pathological phimosis. It's not that long and worth a read and it's peer reviewed for whatever that's worth.

I would like to add though that washing the inside of the foreskin with soap can dry out and damage the mucous membranes. Rinsing with warm water should be enough to clean, and if that doesn't suffice applying some olive or coconut oil should do the trick.

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Is it possible that even heterosexual circumcised men engage in more anal sex than their intact counterparts? Could men with lowered penile sensitivity find anal sex more attractive?

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The more fundamental a right, the more it should be respected. It makes sense if you see rights as a hierarchy; then once you realise the right to life is the most basic, as all others are irrelevant without it, all others fall into place. A parent SHOULDN'T have the right to kill their own child except in the most extenuating circumstances.

What rights do you think stem directly from the right to life? If life is the most basic right due to its power to make all others irrelevant, then the right to ownership of one's body is probably two on the list, as we are our bodies for all relevant matters here. Justifying the violation of someone's body integrity is not easy; it must first pass a rigorous cost benefit analysis and infant circumcision does not, for reasons that I could happily go into.

What the law says is mostly irrelevant in this context, except as a roadblock. We're activists here; the only reason we exist as a group is because the status quo, often embodied by unjust laws, is sexist towards men and responsible for male suffering. Communicating the fact that it is legal to mutilate healthy male children here is as helpful as someone coming into a discussion about how alimony or child support are wrong and stating: "well, it's legal!"

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Let me tell you something about phimosis (which appears to be what you had). Phimosis is a natural condition of the penis in young boys, it's a binding tissue between the glans and the foreskin, this tissue is the same kind of tissue that holds your nails to your fingers.

In the US it is exceedingly common that neither parents nor nurses or even doctors actually know how the healthy uncut penis works. This leads to an unfortunate amount of boys who have their foreskins forcibly retracted at a very young age. Imagine someone separating your nails from your fingertips without removing them. This leads to scar tissue forming on both the glans and the foreskin, it damages the cells that would become protecting and cleaning mucous membranes. It has also been shown to highly increase the risk of pathological phimosis.

Pathological phimosis is when it hurts and or becomes a medical complication. Part of this is when the "tip" of the foreskin (the part where the inner and outer foreskin meet) hardens and gets a white color. Now I don't remember what this was called but it does have a significantly higher occurrence rate with people who had their foreskin forcibly retracted as babies.

Why am I telling you this? Because you seem to actually listen to reason and willing to think and consider another side of the topic and you mentioned having a child in the future.

Now the penis of an infant boy is self cleaning much like the vagina of a girl. All you need to do is wash the outside and at most rinse a little with only lukewarm water in the "opening" of the foreskin. The binding tissue that holds the foreskin and the glans together will dissipate of it's own for about 98% of boys by around age 10. Even if it doesn't this does not mean it's a medical problem, and at late puberty almost all can retract their foreskins.

All kinds of pathological phimosis (except for a minutia of cases) can be treated without circumcision, they are treated by steroid creams, masturbation habits (yup you read right), and in some cases with a small incision to widen the "opening" somewhat. In cases where circumcision is more likely to be preformed are medical emergencies where there is no time or when all other options have been tried, note that this is very rare. When it is an emergency it's often because the foreskin has been retracted and is too tight so it can't be pulled back over the glans again.

While you obviously had a bad experience with this as a kid chances are it could have been avoided without amputation of tissue. And as an intact male from Europe I have never come into contact with a circumcised male who had to have it done fore medical reasons. I also have never come into contact with anyone who would voluntarily have it done to them for any reason. It's a cultural thing but I would hope that you would value choice over culture when it comes to your own child.

Also, keeping it clean is incredibly easy as long as you manage to maintain general hygiene overall.

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infact most of them dont. /u/stillcasey seems to be one of the cases where it was helpfll.

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But what if nothing at all is wrong with your son's foreskin from cradle to grave? What if he wants to have that decision to make about his own penis? It's not yours.

I am not happy I didn't get a choice. The cut the tip of my urethra, the cut off too much skin so I have hair on my shaft, my dick dries out easily and the friction is sometimes unbearable. And the amount of pleasure I feel is miniscule. The scars are constant reminders that I was mutilated without consent in the most defenseless state a human being is ever in; infancy.

You are viewing this from just your own experience which was bad. A flip of the coin and you could have been just fine, would you have wanted them to do it if nothing had been wrong? Proposing such a question to you though, I wonder if you wouldn't allow bias into it. Given you're happy about it now, and many are incapable of separating their present feelings with alternate reality concepts.

Your situation was unforeseeable. Where is the logic in mutilation based on the off chance something could happen? Where is the logic when said mutilation proposes it's own unnecessary risks to a defenseless infant? Why take that choice out of the hands of the person who should have the ability to decide?

I really hope you reconsider mutilating your child. It's irreversible. This is another human being. I can't fathom the mental gymnastics you must do to justify your way of thinking.

I'm sorry it didn't go well for you, but it does for millions. And many are not pleased they had no choice in their own bodily integrity. And unlike you, we can not fix our grief. You had issues, you got to fix them. We have issues that can never be fixed, because someone decided for us how we would want our penis.

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I had "uncut" friends growing up that had infrequent penis problems that I never had to worry about. Honestly, I'd do it to my kid if I had one. My fiancée and I have talked about it and we are both for it. I experience all kinds of sensation, my penis is definitely over average in length.

To go through this as an adult, I think would be terrible. To me, I look at this like I look at immunizations. As a parent, this is a decision you make. I personally feel that there are benefits to circumcision, and my two best friends weren't, so I heard their complaints. We don't diss each other over being cut or uncut. Sometimes they have expressed envy that I don't have to spend extra time cleaning my penis.

I think on this one the benefits outweigh the risks and it is up to the parents to do this early so that it can't be remembered. I don't remember it at all so, in my mind it never happened. Because of this, definitely not unpleasant, because I can't remember it.

Maybe I'm articulating badly.

[–]chocoboat 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I had "uncut" friends growing up that had infrequent penis problems that I never had to worry about.

Your friends need to learn how to wash themselves. Seriously, those problems happen pretty much to filthy people who don't wash.

To me, I look at this like I look at immunizations. As a parent, this is a decision you make.

It couldn't be more different Immunizations do not involved cutting off part of your body. Immunizations have massive health benefits with virtually no drawback... circumcision has no health benefit with serious drawbacks.

Immunization is considered a medical necessity. Circumcision is not necessary at all. It is a pointless ritual, it is permanent body modification of another person without their consent for the reason of "my parents did it to me" or "that's just how we do it around here", which is no reason at all.

If someone wants to be circumcised, they can choose it for themselves. If you have a son, you should let him decide what he wants. You have no moral right to modify his body for him and give him no choice.

We don't diss each other over being cut or uncut.

No one should. I don't know where people get that idea about anti-circumcision people. There is nothing wrong with being circumcised, there is nothing wrong with having it done if you need it. There is EVERYTHING wrong with forcing it on others without their consent. Those are massively, gigantically different situations.

it is up to the parents to do this early so that it can't be remembered

What kind of excuse is this? Can I beat my child as long as he's too young to remember it? Can I rape a sleeping woman, because hey if she doesn't remember it then it's all good?

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I think the issue is that the logic behind those for it seems very skewed. Reading your posts, you have the pro stance because you unfortunately suffered for being uncut and if you had had the procedure as a baby, you could have avoided years of suffering. In your case, a case that is vastly important to you because it happened to you, preemptive cutting would have saved you years of pain. For you, I agree that preemptive cutting would have been a good think, but how were your parents supposed to know that 10-11 years down the road, you'd have problems? They couldn't have, so they left your dick alone and left the choice up to you later. It is unfortunate that you suffered, and I'd hate to think that your potential son (not sure if you know the sex yet) would grow up suffering, too. As someone who sounds like he wants to be a good dad and prevent any unwarranted pain for your boy, I can appreciate why you'd want it done for him, especially since you said you have a family history of this issue and to be honest, it will just be some pain now that he won't remember or understand. The issue is that you are gambling on him having it, a solid gamble in my eyes given the circumstances, but you are still cutting him based on a gamble when he could end up being fine and not suffering.

Someone like myself, who is uncut and has never had those issues doesn't see the point of cutting because I'm natural and have had no problems. Preemptive cutting to me seems quite brash and illogical, like along the lines of, "well, since there is a chance that junior could grow up to develop skin cancer, let's remove several inches of his skin from his face and stitch it up so that it doesn't grow back to improve his chances of not getting skin cancer on his face," or, "well, since there is a slight chance that junior could develop testicular cancer, let's just make a couple snips and remove his balls a few days after he's born."

Both of my examples seem silly, but that's how myself and many others view the pro side to the issue. Granted, you have a family history of the issue, but your argument is that if there is any chance of an issue later, we might as well remove the whole problem now. That's fine when it comes to engineering a bridge or building where removing all chances of a problem is really crucial and could prevent death, but that's not a stance to have on humans, in my opinion.

You've said and have had it said to you that the chance of your son having the same issue as you is less than 5%, so cutting your kid's dick when he has a 95% chance to be fine seems borderline crazy. As I imagine that a large amount of Redditors are uncircumsized (this may be false since a majority seem to be from the U.S.), that's why it is such an issue on this site. And this is from the purely medical standpoint or freedom of choice stance, let alone an appearance preference stance.

Regardless of what you decide to do with him, and that's up to you as one of the parents, just be sure to prepare yourself down the line if he ever comes to you and/or the mother and demands to know why you did it. I have a few friends that are cut that have issues and they are very resentful of their parents for it, but they are in the minority. Just be aware of it for later.

[–]Porkfish 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's a stance against unilateral removal of a useful part of the body without good reason. The foreskin does a few important things:

protects the glans, preventing keratinization of the epithelium (forming a callus), making the head more sensitive. Every circumcised man has a thin callus over the head of his penis from rubbing against clothing his entire life. This decreases his sensitivity.
Makes masturbation better by providing increased stimulation and lubrication of the glans.
Makes sex more comfortable for the woman by requiring less lubrication from the vagina to achieve a smooth gliding motion. The intact penis moves partially within its foreskin, instead of entirely against the vaginal wall.

Based on your comments, it seems like you needed to be circumcised. I'm sorry you had to deal with that at age 11, but most men do not need, and would not/do not benefit from circumcision.

You might as well chop off a baby's ears. He would still hear, but sounds would be muffled and harder to localize. Similarly, circumcision inhibits the normal function of the penis. It still works - just not as well, but the circumcised man never knows what he is missing. He has never had normal genitalia.

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actually, it does. a large amount of the orgasmy feely glands (scientific term) are in the forskin. In my opinion, and im not circumcised, i feel like there is no issue with people choseing to do it, but there is no benefit for it, and it is something we force on children who cant object. Also it was started basically to stop masturbation, but we all know how that worked out.

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the commenter below who essentially insulted you for lacking altruism because you made a statement expressing confusion

That was me, and I stand by it. His lack of compassion is in my opinion the source of his confusion. Keep in mind, the person I was referencing straight-up said he doesn't have a problem with female genital mutilation. Said that infant circumcision is perfectly fine because it's better to agonize male children when they're too young to remember it than have them endure that same pain when they're older -- personal choice be damned. Giving them the choice to avoid enduring that pain entirely isn't important. Still want to defend his altruism? Or perhaps you'd rather take a shot at the argument he's dodged twice:

What's the problem with letting men decide for themselves to have it done when they get old enough?

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[–]jmg83 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't know about that guy, but here are my reasons.

As a result of a botched circumcision (that's the funny thing about circumcision, even if it goes as planned, your penis is still disfigured), I have two skin bridges on my penis. I didn't even know there was a name for them until a few years ago.

Sex is more painful than pleasurable, and when you throw a condom into the mix, it's pretty much pointless. I've seen videos of how a normal dick moves. Mine is nothing like that. It's frustrating as hell, for me and my partners. I blame myself, and they blame themselves. I've been asked on more than one occasion "What do I do with it?" by women who've never even seen a penis that isn't intact. Unlike men who live in places like America, I don't even have the luxury of deluding myself that what was done to me is normal.

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Add me to the list of men circumcised, whom wishes they weren't. Especially on reddit, we aren't that hard to find. We don't risk public humilation, shaming and derision by expressing our feelings here. Out in person, the opposite tends to be the reality.

To answer the question you posed to another user;

Okay.. why would you prefer to be uncut?

(that unfortunately wasn't answered), here are the three largest reasons;

First and foremost, it is really upsetting to think that a part of my body, of my genitals (what we as humans generally consider to be the most personal and intimate part of our bodies), was taken away from me. Imagine for a moment that your right arm was removed at birth. As you grew up you'd probably learn to adapt, and live a normal healthy life. Then imagine the day that you learned the reason you have 1 arm instead of 2 like everyone else, wasnt because you were sick and needed help, wasn't because you were born that way, but because someone else took it away from you. Someone else decided you didn't need it, and that was that, away it went forever. How would you feel? Obviously this is an extreme example. I am not at all saying that being circumcised is like losing an arm. However, the fundamental principle is the same. Why it would be upsetting to have an arm removed at birth, is the same as why I'm upset for being circumcised. The difference is that I draw the line at "any part of my body" being removed as being too much, instead of simply large and extremely severe parts like an arm or a leg. I do not think it is unreasonable to desire a complete, healthy and intact body. Just as amputees might desire their limbs back, so do I desire my foreskin back. Again, this is not an attempt to compare amputation of full limbs as equivalent to circumcision, in anything except nature. The nature of the two is the same, and thus leads to similar feelings.
I do not like the appearance of a circumcised penis. I don't say this to offend, or make other circumcised men feel bad, but personally I think the circumcised penis is quite unfavorable in its aesthetic. I do not like the two-tone colouration, I do not like the dried mucosal tissues of the remaining inner skin and glans. I absolutely hate, the jagged, uneven and dark ring of a scar I have forever reminding me this was done. To me, the circumcised penis looks sickly. Unfortunately, I am forced to spend the rest of my life bearing that scar and this appearance anyways, despite me being given by birthright a penis that is far superior in aesthetics (again in my opinion, not that aesthetic is a strong basis for the circumcision decision in either direction).
The question of sexual function and sensitivity. I am in the process of restoring my foreskin (this is a bit of a misnomer, since a true replacement cannot be created; this is a functional analog) and have found that with every bit of tissue I grow back, my sexual function and satisfaction increases tremendously. My average sexual experience now, is better than my best experiences before I started restoring. I don't say that lightly, and that is coming from someone who did not have what he would call "unsatisfactory" orgasm quality before. If my sexual function is so much more enjoyable now with a knock-off foreskin, what might it have been like, had I been allowed to keep the rest of my penis? How much am I actually missing? Maybe it's a little bit, and maybe it's a lot. I'll never know and that was again, something forcibly taken from me by another person. Not by bad genetics, not be bad luck in the form of an accident. It was purposefully (indirectly, since the choice was made with good intentions, but regardless) taken from me.

So there is a brief overview. There are other reasons I could delve into, but these are the most direct and significant. I'm sure if you were to ask others you'd find a surprising level of uniformity across their responses, in how they parallel my own.

[–]jmg83 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]aaxxsed 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was born and raised in South Korea, one of the countries with >90% circumcision rate with most obscure reason. I didn't make it to the lucky 10%. We mostly do it to kids around age 10~12, since even we do see cutting off flesh off babies' dick cruel and barbaric. At that age range means some kids hit puberty and discover masturbation before the surgery. Again, I was one of such cases. I miss the sensation that part had. The psychological trauma didn't hit me until I was 20-something when I realized what was done to my penis. There was absolutely no reason to cut off my foreskin. I didn't have any complication there, and I was able to retract it without problem. I couldn't stop thinking about my meaninglessly mutilated penis. The word 'circumcision' became a trigger (I know, it's lame), and it still is a little bit.

Yeah, you found one, an unhappy one. I'm circumcised and I wish I wasn't. I wish I'd resisted, stood up and ran away from the operating table.

[–]Dixieduffy 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Many guys like it, and that's peachy-keen. I met a guy that loved being less sensitive because it gave him greater stamina and his wife really wanted that. They are both very happy with the procedure (there was also a bit of 'it looked wrong!' from the wife, but that's a separate issue).

The problem is choice. What can you do if you want it done later in life? You can get it done. What if you wish it had never happened? Too bad, go cry about it. This is a one-way street and I'm grieved that I was thrown down it head-first shortly after birth. Unlike my friend, I desperately want more sensitivity and sensation, and my wife wants less friction, less duration and fewer breaks for getting lubricant. He got what he wanted, I can only stare over the wall in melancholy.

Did you have phimosis or balantitis, or even some other condition that made it difficult to have a foreskin? Do you know for sure if your foreskin was retracted and the connective tissues to the glans ripped prematurely, which can be a cause of both phimosis and balantitis?

With utmost respect and no intention to labast your belief, do you have any cultural or religious background that is pro-circumcision? (Jewish, Muslim, some central African tribes?)

[–]stillcasey 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]I_fight_demons 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you'll find that most of the comments to you are fully supportive of your mature, informed, medically indicated decision. I certainly bear you no ill will and am happy for you and your wife.

The opposite does not seem to be fully true, and in my experience rarely is. Men that don't care about being cut tend to be hostile and demeaning to those that do care. I mourn deeply for the involuntary and unnecessary cutting of my penis. When I say this the most common reaction is insult and derision. That's quite sad, especially given the way these people treat FGM as an abhorrent and barbaric practice. Few seem to care that my wife and I wish this had never happened, but are quick to assert that they don't (so why should I?) I envy those that don't care, it'd be wonderful, but it is simply not my experience.

Your statements that it's just a little piece of skin, and comparisons to ear piercig are very common. They are not accurate in my opinion. The area removed is about 50cm squared, or the size of a 3x5 card, roughly. That does not strike me as insignificant- especially since that area is highly vascular, produces mucus lubrication, is protective in various ways, has a muscular sphnicter and nerve density rivaling the fingertips and lips. Comparing removing the foreskin to ear piercing is wildly misunderstanding the scale of the procedure. After all, piercing is easily and quickly reversed and destroys an incredibly tiny part of a generally unthought about area of the body. Id be interested in an experiment- watch a half dozen videos of infant circumcision (not even the anti-circ ones, just the medical training ones) and watch the same number of ear piercing videos. I wonder if your opinion will be the same

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(obviously there are issues like phimosis or personal preference, which you are fully entitled to, just like a woman is to a clitorectomy)

we can't convince americans to stop cutting on a boys genitals as a rule rather than the exception, even if it can be proven there is no medical need. and this is in a society where even stage-IV female circumcision (least destructive) is a crime against humanity.

if that is the mentality, how the hell do you think you could ever fix any of the things "that fucking matter," like that whole GIRLS ARE HELD IN HIGHER REGARD thing?... it's hard to come up with a better double standard when the man who made circumcision popular in the US also pushed (and practiced) burning the clitoris of young girls with carbolic acid. He didn't even condone routine circumcision either, but women picked it up and ran with it because they prefer circumcised penises, and people thought it would make men stop touching them as much, there isn't much else to it.

now why would one gender's genital mutilation be okay, but not the other?...they were both pushed at the same time for the same reason, but only one has stuck around long after it was proven fraudulent.... could it be a symptom of a "real fucking problem?"

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[–]davidrexs 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

People come to the MRM for different reasons, and everyone has different priorities. From your perspective, MGM doesn't seem like too big a deal. Personally, I find the mass mutilation of boys penises really upsetting. It should be a basic human right for people to leave your junk alone and effects a vast number of men around the globe. Personally, it's my main point of interest in the MRM, but I'd never derail another conversation with it. ("Yeah, it's shit that people don't get to see their kids, but did you know thousands of boys and teenagers will die every year from unsafe, botched and unnecessary circumcisions")

And it ties in pretty heavily with the idea of the disposable male.

Also, get over yourself, you don't get to dictate the concerns of the MRM. Fuck. Off. You. Fucking. Plum.

[–]N3TS3cure -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]davidrexs 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I really don't get your problem.

re: getting over oneself. I'm not the one going onto discussions to derail them. Because WAAAAAHH THIS DOESN'T MATTER TO ME AND EVERYTHING HAS TO BE ABOUT ME.

Think you'll find that a lot of people in the MRM regard it as mutilation. Sorry. There's really not a vast lot you can do about it.

MGM is important. It affects many people. It only happens to men. Men die unnecessarily from the procedure. It ruins men's lives. Seems the exact sort of thing the MRM should care about, and it's not surprising that a lot of us here do.

I don't know if you've got some sort of agenda, but it is really unlike anybody else on this board to bitch and moan because people aren't talking about what they want them to talk about. Grow up or fuck off to some other discussion you're more interested in.

[–]N3TS3cure -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]3rdLevelRogue 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Small milestones man, small milestones to get things rolling.

As a MRA, I agree that circumcision is kind of a low priority on fixing society's shitty treatment of men, but it is still an issue. Circumcision for no medical reason is basically telling a boy that he's ugly, unattractive, and some how a disgusting freak because he has foreskin, something with which he was naturally born, or that chopping up his dick as a baby is cool because it is tradition and he didn't really deserve a say. He has his freedom of choice taken from him days after his birth. Feminists and supporters of women's right to choose often argue, "my body, my choice," and it is seen as valid, so why can't men argue with the same point against circumcision? Women can bitch about how society tells them that they aren't attractive unless they are a certain way, so why can't men do it too when they're told (at least in the U.S.) by so many people that uncut guys are gross?

As I said, I agree that there are a lot of issues of relatively greater importance, like depression/suicide, lack of shelters or help for homeless of needy men, workplace safety, or child rights, but it is still a valid issue for MRAs to look at, and as a fairly disorganized group that doesn't have much of a voice or hold in society to a degree that feminists do, any headway made on any stance is progress

[–]Eryemil 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Eryemil 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

That was sarcasm. Straight, male MRAs almost unequivocally accept the wrongness and importance of the issues I mentioned above because they've either been affected by them or see themselves as being potentially affected. They sacrifice very little in accepting, for example, the fact that the courts might be biased against men.

The harm/wrongness of circumcision, on the other hand, is not so easy to swallow for an audience that is mostly circumcised. There's an emotional/intellectual cost to both accepting the fact that it's an issue and that it is an important one. It comes with all sorts of implications about self-worth, parental duties, love and betrayal etc.

The treatment of circumcision by countries such as the US is actually a perfect example of male disposability and our general disregard for the suffering of males. Circumcision is one of the most direct and basic human rights violation any man in a developed country is likely to be subjected to as a matter of course.

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lolmany, the world is filled with more natural dicks than not. Most women don't care, and if they do then they are hardly the type of person you should waste your life on imo.

As a gay man, the natural penis is the way it should be. An ugly penis is an ugly penis, it has no bearing on foreskin or not. I've seen many, not personally mind you, but there are ugly penises. Intact and mutilated. It makes little difference in whether it's ugly or not, but the most beautiful are intact. With some you just pull the skin back and it looks 'cut' anyway. And it doesn't lose any of the sensitivity or benefits during sex. ie; less friction, more stimulation, male addition to lubrication

Also, if you've got "smegma" then you're just gross. And thus if you were cut, you would have stanky balls and asscrack and armpits. You're just gross.

Knowing how to bathe isn't hard.

[–]N3TS3cure -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Elvick 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Preference is one thing. What I am referring to is the type of person who would say, "EWWW GROSS" and no longer date you because of it even if everything else was perfect between you two. Or have it as an actual requirement in their checklist, so if they ask and you give an answer against their "preference" they decide never to date you.

That would be shallow and not so much a "preference" as a requirement. I repeat, anyone that requires you be cut, or uncut, is not a person worth anyone's time imo.

Being cut for many isn't even an option. And anyone that expects you to chop off your healthy foreskin just to date them, is a douche. So why bother? Most women [or men] will more than likely take it as it comes. No pun intended.

If a man chops off piece of his penis because his girlfriend is "grossed" out by the foreskin and she dumps him anyway, that's not exactly a situation comparable to losing weight to attract someone. If that "250 lard monster" liked being fat, but lost weight for you and you dumped her, then she could gain it back and be happy again.

You can't regrow your foreskin. Those never endings are lost.

[–]jmg83 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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The thing is that even if you don't compare the actual procedures this is pretty much exactly what a lot of African women say when they hear about our stance on female circumcision.

Again disregard what is actually being done, one being worse than the other is not relevant here for the time being. The fact is that a lot of African women don't consider themselves mutilated, they think they are beautiful and they can't wait until they can do it to their own daughters.

It's horrifying to us to think about that but it is the truth and a really interesting parallel.

The issue is not so much you having a problem with it as you never having had the choice. You don't know what you never were allowed to have. There are a lot of people who have serious issues with being circumcised, and while a small percentage, over 100 baby boys die each year in the US as a direct result of circumcision. To me that should be enough.

Lastly it is literally genital cutting, it is cutting off parts of small children's penises. The fact that this is not seen as "a big deal" could actually be seen as the quintessential way that men are viewed in this society. "Man up! We only cut part of your penis off without you having a say in it, what are you wining about?"

[–]iainmf 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]iainmf 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]I_fight_demons 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Main concerns:

It may not actually have the benefits that are claimed. STI reduction, cleanliness and other benefits are controversial at best. The US is the only medically advanced nation that claims benefits outweigh harms- the Far East, all of Europe, Latin America, Canada and Australia condemn the practice as unhelpful. Inside the US, the medical community is very divided, there is very good research against, and not really any amazing studies that are for circumcision.
Medical ethics, it is the only preventative surgery performed on completely uninformed patients. In fact, even researching whether FGM had benefits would never, ever get past an ethics board. It is often nothing more than a significantly risky cosmetic surgery to make the boy 'look right.' This would be illegal if there were not cultural tradition supporting it. Given the controversial and possibly non-existent benefits, the risks which include infection, skin bridges and even castration and death (100+ deaths in the US in a year) seem hard to accept. This is compounded by the fact that you don't even need any kind of medical qualifications to perform male genital cutting, it is often performed by non-doctors in non-hospital conditions (this is the case in Islam and Judaism).
Loss of sexual pleasure. The foreskin protects and provides blood to the glans, increasing its sensitivity and preventing chafing and callousing present in cut men. The foreskin is at least as sensitive on its own as the finger tips, and is much more sensitive to fine touch than all of the structures that remain after circumcision. The foreskin is about the size of a 3x5 card and this extra skin provides a sheath that the penis glides within, reducing sexual friction and sealing lubrication inside the vagina. It is also a mucus membrane and provides a small amount of actual lubricant, just like the vagina. (I know an uncircumcised guy that can pump his full length and have an orgasm between his girlfriend's breasts without any lubricant- that's how much the skin gliding reduces friction).

This is a first brush, you can read more here:

Brian Earp writes a very good piece here.

A shorter listicle style here

[–]GetWreckless 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Frittern -12 points-11 points-10 points 11 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]Adrelinen 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]WolfShaman 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frittern -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Eryemil 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]vatreehugger 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Adrelinen 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]mud074 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Adrelinen 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frittern -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Well that made it easy..Gathering circumcision data/Studies now..See ya folks on the front lines done with this echo chamber..

Wow 50-60 hiv reduction from PIV sex..-30% reduction in hpv, 60+% reduction in male UTI. UTI to CVD correlation. Now Looking for data Gonorrhea and syphillus. Holy crap!! look at chlamydia infection rate in the south east US..Wonder what the Vector their is? Warm moist dark.. foreskins are like bacterial incubators..Takes me back to microbiology and growing bacterial cultures..

Seems the only thing Circumcision doesn't protect against is anal sex HIV, Hmmm?

2nd year transfer student I'm starting a RN program this fall..Working with a BSN in less that 24months..I'll remember you ideologs as I interact with thousands of people..Will take your rhetoric and myopic perspective and one way filtering into account as I refute anti circumcision talking points I encounter..Congratulations you folk WIN!!

[–]Adrelinen 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Frittern -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Doctor_Loggins 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Peter_Principle_ 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]govt_took_my_baby[🍰] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]chocoboat 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

If you are anywhere remotely close to "open minded" then you should be able to understand that circumcision should be a personal choice that everyone should be able to decide on for THEMSELVES. It should never be something that's forced on you, or something that you force onto others.

Your real opponents will not even talk with you about circumcision.They will take their boys in for the snip without a thought.

True, there will always be some people who don't care for a debate and will just have it done to their sons. But for anyone who isn't sure... it's good for them to see circumcision condemned and criticized, and for them to see others judge it as barbaric and unacceptable.

Routine circumcision won't be ended by ultra-polite discussions that say "well, either way is fine really, there are some nice things about either option". No... people need to be exposed to the idea that forcing body modification surgery onto others is WRONG, and that this is the kind of thing that everyone should be able to choose for themselves.

[–]aaxxsed 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AndrasOpinio -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I understand that circumcision is a contentious issue. There is seemingly more evidence to suggest that it is cleaner, lower maintenance and does decrease the risk of STD transmission, however; I also accept these studies show correlation and not causation. I am for parental discretion in the case of circumcision. I would have my children done and I will tell you why. My two nephews had to be circumcised at ages 5 and 8 due to a condition called ‘phimosis’. This is where the foreskin becomes so tight that it makes urination difficult, and in extreme cases, can actually prevent urination all together. It was horrendous for them and the healing process took a lot longer than if they were infants. When babies are circumcised, there is less pain and a decreased healing time. The foreskin can be a breeding ground of bacteria if it is not kept clean, and let’s face it, men sometimes aren’t very detailed orientated in that department (especially in their formative years). I was circumcised and I am grateful for it. I would also offer a warning about the validity of isolated scientific research that is a pilot study; that goes against general scientific consensus; that hasn’t been replicated AND has been completed using a self-administered tests. The best example of this is a study by Andrew Wakefield who published a 1998 paper on the now disproven link between autism and vaccination.

[–]I_fight_demons 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Was the phimosis caused or aided by retracting the foreskin early in life and breaking the connective tissue attaching and sealing the glans to the foreskin?

Please realize that you are recommending a preventative surgery- which is not something we do in any other case than male genital cutting. Literally no other surgical procedure is routinely performed in the hope that it might prevent some problems that occur in a very small percentage of the population. Also, far less invasive methods can often treat phimosis or infection- such as stretching, steroid creams and simple topic and oral antibiotics. Even in cases where surgery is beneficial, far less deep cutting can often achieve the desired results. Removing only enough foreskin to consistently expose the meatus is usually effective, you do not need to excise skin to down below the corona of the glans to prevent UTIs and increase retractabilityp

Also please realize that this study is not at odds with scientific consensus. The WHO, CDC and AAP are just about the only medical bodies in the OECD countries that have this opinion. Most of it is hung firmly on the tree of a very biased and poorly controlled WHO study in sub-Saharan Africa. A very large body of research (which the Navy study cites) from everywhere from the Netherlands to South Korea, affirms the position that circumcision has no real association with STI reduction.

Title	U.S. Navy Finds That Circumcision Does Not Prevent HIV or STIs
Author	joewilson-MRA
Upvotes	525
Comments	312
Date	January 15, 2015 8:30 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2sjvmp/us_navy_finds_that_circumcision_does_not_prevent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/us-navy-finds-that-circumcision-does-not-prevent.990431 https://theredarchive.com/post/990431

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