Dear the Mens Rights Movement,

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-06-01T13:56:56+00:00

I would like to try to offer some clarification to the anti-feminist vibe one sees among MRAs. I don't the issue is feminism in principle, but the assent given to it. Feminism has taken many forms, or rather many different ideologies have ascribed the label "feminism" to it. There is the perception that feminism is "just about equality", but what "equality" means differs, how one defines power, oppression, privilege or equality among the different arms of feminism differs, sometimes exclusively(as well as exclusively with the MRM). The explanations for inequality differ, as well as thought to be insufficient in the MRM(Patriarchy/Kyriarchy theory), and the solutions offered intended to achieve a given metric of equality also differ(e.g. equal treatment versus equal outcome).

None of these things mean the MRM is inherently anti-feminist, but for myself I find it sufficient to say that because there are harmful aspects of advocacy done under the feminist banner, and feminists who might disagree instead judge it based on the assent given to the label and not the action itself, is why I don't identify as a feminist, and am critical of feminists who other disagree for not calling it out. The assent given to the feminism label is powerful rhetorically, and even well meaning feminists are aware of this and I think they fear by not having this "solidarity" it reduces the rhetoric weight of their own feminist ideals, when in reality those ideals are not unique to feminism and their moral and rhetorical weight can be evaluated on their own merits.

That is why I am "anti" feminist, because feminism has become a political label so diffuse as to not mean anything concrete. I am remind of bell hooks' quote regarding feminism in this respect:

“The significance of feminist movement (when it is not co-opted by opportunistic, reactionary forces) is that it offers a new ideological meeting ground for the sexes, a space for criticism, struggle, and transformation.”

Emphasis mine. Contemporary feminism has been co-opted. Now this doesn't mean that what you or a particular individual means when they use the "feminism/feminist" is wrong or hateful, but that their use of the word feminism has become sullied by the disconnect of what feminism means. When someone says "oh I am feminist", in today's age that doesn't really offer any clarification on their position on gender issues, both because none of those positions are unique to feminism, nor is any position universal to feminism. This creates a situation where the word "feminist" is merely political flag, which much like "liberal" or "conservative" doesn't offer much insight into what they think about particular issues. I assume when it is used that they agree with some notion of equality of the sexes, but what it does not tell us is what measure of equality, or how they think it should/can be achieved. Because this for lack of a better word political tribalism allows harmful ideas and actions to go relatively unchecked, I cannot abide the assent given to the label; that doesn't mean I necessarily disagree with anything feminist, but that when someone says "I'm a feminist", it doesn't offer any insight to me on how they feel about a particular subject, and I have to ask clarifying questions as to what they mean by it making the label, not their positions themselves,in its current contemporary usage not very useful.

I think the questioning attitude you displayed with your fiance is absolutely great and helpful for both you understanding were you're both coming from, and I think a more questioning attitude of feminism will be as well; additionally, the MRM must be wary of hateful elements trying to co-opt themselves with that label as well, such as PUAs and especially the Manhood Academy, although currently it seems the MRM's detractors wish to ascribe them to being part of us(along with false flags issues, but I'm getting off topic at this point).

I hope I was clear, and am willing to clarify further if something is not.

Memyselfsomeotherguy · 2013-06-01T23:18:31+00:00

Feminism may not be my favorite word in the dictionary, but actions say much more and are much more important, and yours are excellent. Please don't ignore that the barbaric comments are both downvoted and outnumbered.

Disorderly-Conduct · 2013-06-01T03:15:13+00:00

Thanks, great insight into your behavior! Don't feel intimidated by all the animosity towards feminism here, there are actually quite a few feminists who identify as MRAs as well. Christina Hoff Sommers is a bestselling author of men's rights that MRAs often quote who criticizes feminism, but still identifies as one.

Disorderly-Conduct · 2013-06-01T06:43:05+00:00

As you can plainly see, there's still a lot of animosity toward feminism. Honestly, it's justified. Don't confuse it with misogyny. This is what modern feminism has done: They have equated feminism with women and women's equality and used that to point at us and say "YOU'RE A MISOGYNIST!" whenever we criticize it. In fact, few here disagree that women deserve equality. Fewer still hate women. Many dislike what feminism has done and continues to do to men. Feminism no longer champions women's rights; it champions women's superiority. It is staunchly against the idea of even entertaining the possibility that men have legitimate issues. If there's ever going to be improvement for men or women in the world, it will need open-minded people, not extremists.

I appreciate what you've said.

Omni314 · 2013-06-01T09:26:22+00:00

MRA's don't hate feminists, we just hate feminists, there's a difference and sometimes it's forgotten but were not here for the woman hating really.

2013-06-02T06:33:12+00:00

I'm new enough to this sub that I never figured out where all the backlash came from. I always see feminists on r/feminism talking about MRA's like their soul purpose is to be misogynistic.

Maybe it has changed... I wouldn't know for sure, but it is nice to have a place to talk about the hard things about being a man that the rest of society seems to overlook due to our "privilege" of being born a man.

(I don't think it's any better or worse to be a man or woman--both have plenty to deal with in life.)

Raudskeggr · 2013-06-01T08:43:30+00:00

Ah, This lightens my heart a great deal! It is always good to see people thinking of one another like the equals they are, instead of obsessing over the politics of who's more vulnerable, powerful, victimized, or whatever.

I always feel happy when someone realizes that this really is largely what the MRM is about; just opening people's minds to how they think about the relationship between the genders. Especially in feminism; by focusing on what women want and need, feminists can often fail to see that men have needs and feelings too. In some cases, the feelings and needs of men are even shrugged off as unimportant, if they are even thought of at all.

That makes it especially frustrating for us to hear more extreme people say that the MRM wants to bring back the old system, that it is some conservative movement. I'm pretty liberal myself, though there are a few conservatives involved as well.

I'm glad you saw through that!

As to your comment about us needing your approval: I actually have to disagree with you here. The MRM does need the approval and support of women. Without women who are sympathetic to MRAs, the whole movement isn't going to accomplish much at all.

JoshtheAspie · 2013-06-01T05:54:58+00:00

First of all, I would like to thank you for coming here and posting about the positive experiences that this sub-reddit has engendered in you. I'm relatively new here, but I'm sure that some of the long time contributes appreciate the positive feedback, that some good is coming from this reddit.

I personally prefer to up-vote and link to good news, and issues of import, and intend to help make the content here "lurkable" for a wide variety of people.

However, a few things you have brought up concern me. I am attempting to use polite, formal language. In fact, I've re-edited a few areas of this post, to attempt to make myself clear, and remove any unnecessary hostility. While I try to make my points softly, I am not going to self-censor the meaning behind them.

If you are as open to the concerns of men as you seem to claim here, I hope that you will read, and attempt to understand them, before reacting.

I consider myself a feminist.

I feel that the loud minority is still there, but gets some backlash now from true MRAs.

this shift and seemingly more accepting tone

Coming from a woman who has read this sub-reddit, and still feels comfortable identifying with the feminist movement, I honestly find this truly alarming. You are presuming to judge who is, and is not, a "true" MRA, and that seems to be, by your definition, those who say things a feminist can find value in.

Feminism has brought us VAWA, men-at-fault divorce laws, lighter sentencing for women than men, defining witholding of moneys as domestic violence, and a whole host of other horrors.

A number of the MGTOW blogs that I read, which are warning of a co-opting of the MRA movement by feminists. Your post, and a number of things I have seen on this sub-redit and A Voice for Men make this seem quite plausible.

beema · 2013-06-01T08:44:28+00:00

The reverse joking thing is all that I'm really bothered by; I love to split chores by task, and will gladly bring in one load of groceries for my hypothetical fiancee to put away for us. However, if you assumed either and reprimanded me for not following your implicit plan, then I would have a problem.

cajunrevenge · 2013-06-01T08:13:19+00:00

I dont think anyone here is going to complain about the things your fiance is. We can live with stuff like that just fine. Its the things like getting screwed in family court and unequal application of the laws based on gender that we dont want to live with.

Overall we want equality for both genders. If we fix the inequalities for women and not the inequalities for men then we are just flipping the scale and not really achieving equality.

evilbrent · 2013-06-01T10:16:46+00:00

Great that you're thinking about it. Don't make too big a deal about it though. I'm sure your fiance would say something if he were really upset.

AmuseDeath · 2013-06-01T12:55:11+00:00

Break yourself down, be open minded. Be willing to accept anything and everything you know could be false.

brauhze · 2013-06-01T04:06:43+00:00

Wow, I really appreciate your efforts to read the subreddit with an open mind and talk with your boyfriend about it. Kudos!

stop_stalking_me · 2013-06-01T22:07:04+00:00

Please don't be discouraged by the hateful comments here. The majority of us aren't like that. While I don't agree with feminism and I don't particularly like the name as it refers specifically to one sex I make exceptions for people like you who really understand these issues. I'm glad that you are able to see the other side of things.

KRosen333 · 2013-06-01T03:27:31+00:00

Thanks for your vote of confidence. I'm sure you know mainstream feminism is really looked down upon here, but you seem like a decent hearted person. You also seem to truly care about your SO. Thank you for that. You give us hope.

dalsgaard · 2013-06-01T10:51:53+00:00

Keep this post in mind, OP. Men are not used to think about the ways they are disadvantaged as a gender, and once you start the ball rolling you may not like where it ends up. The reason being: It's never fun to have to face your own privilige.

2013-06-02T22:05:30+00:00

(not that you need my approval!)

I'm pleased to have yours although don't need it. Men's lives have improved a lot in the past century without women caring or helping out but good on you for doing your best for one man.

Mythandros · 2013-06-01T05:34:26+00:00

Thank you for coming here and sharing your story.

I'm glad that you are listening to your boyfriend and he is listening to you. Communication is VERY important and can only help your relationship with him

Although I do hope that one day you can discard the feminist title, as it will only end up sending the wrong idea to the right people.

If more people like yourself existed, and were willing to listen without judging, this world would be a much nicer and better place.

Please keep it up, you're doing great!

rbcrusaders · 2013-06-01T06:35:56+00:00

that is a very mature move, op

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-06-01T14:28:27+00:00

Little_maroon_alien,

Thank you for your integrity and sincerity.

The gender discourse needs more sane and levelheaded people like yourself.

Nepene · 2013-06-01T08:12:09+00:00

The jokes thing definitely hits home. With feminists I have often noticed that they know a lot of jokes against men but they have a strong dislike of jokes against women. I hope you can continue to improve and make the world a better place.

nlakes · 2013-06-02T00:42:39+00:00

With all due respect, you sound like a nice and reasonable person and I appreciate your message.

However, I don't feel that I can respect a movement that is centered around patriarchy theory / 'rape culture'. I fundamentally view your movement as sexist/misandrist, however that probably doesn't apply to you personally.

tyciol · 2013-06-02T01:34:42+00:00

I consider myself a feminist. Not a man hater, but a feminist.

That's nice. There are some misandrists among feminists so it's nice to know when we're encountering one of the non-misandric ones.

We don't all think that all feminists hate men. It kinda encourages it, but it's certainly no absolute requirement. I just happen to think our wellbeing is deprioritized, but not making something an equal priority certainly isn't hatred. Just like I don't hate dogs. But humanism is certainly not FOR dogs.

I never considered the fact that when we get groceries I assume that he will bring them in because I am always the one that puts everything away. He would like to split it.

Good for him if he's into organizing cupboards and stuff. That stereotype probably exists because of a general preference to do some brief lifting and then leave organizing to the one who might be more apt to complain about not being able to find something.

That's just my sexism talkin' btw, situationally influenced mind you.

legbearded clamhurt

I only encountered this 'legbeard' meme within the last week in spite of reading since last year, but 'clamhurt' is certainly new to me.

rightsbot · 2013-06-01T03:10:17+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

Funcuz · 2013-06-01T12:32:46+00:00

I have yet to come across a truly misogynistic comment. A lot of us hate feminism (I'm one of them) and consider feminists (male and female) to be little more than professional victims. They're not good for anything else and as such I have no problem whatsoever voicing my contempt for them.

Nevertheless , I'm really sick and tired of hearing about how something was "misogynistic". Nobody who uses that term seems to actually know what it means but in a nutshell what most people who use the term do is assume they know what motivated a person to write or say something that doesn't reflect well upon women. That's not what misogyny is.

Misogyny is the hatred of women. It's saying something like "I wish all women died a violent death because they're all cunts." THAT'S misogyny. Saying "Seems like there are an awful lot of gold-digging whores running around these days" is NOT misogynistic. The way people throw the word around these days they don't see the difference but there's actually a huge one.

Another reason I'm fed up with cries of misogyny at every turn is that it's just the latest trend in trying to shame men into agreeing with women. If I say that women don't work as hard on their careers as men do (which , statistically speaking is absolutely true) some bitch or asshole will come along and say "That's a misogynistic remark !". No it's not. It's a fact. There's nothing even remotely hateful about repeating a fact. It may also be a generalization but in these PC days it's ridiculous how we have to preface everything with caveats when it's understood by virtually all that we're speaking in generalizations.

Anyway , make no mistake , your support is welcome. Just please understand that there is no room for false compromise.

TheMightyCheng · 2013-06-01T08:50:43+00:00

Sounds like you "get it". That's good. Keep treating your husband like he's a human being and thanks for paying attention to what the MRM has been trying to say.

DougDante · 2013-06-01T06:05:40+00:00

Thanks for sharing your story.

jimmybrite · 2013-06-01T08:26:39+00:00

Meh, still don't like the term feminist, and until you understand that the term is inherently sexist then we have nothing more to say.

theozoph · 2013-06-01T11:05:54+00:00

Good. Now open your eyes to the fact that it is feminism which is hurting your boyfriend and stop associating with sociopaths.

Have a nice day.

dysgraphia_add · 2013-06-01T16:20:19+00:00

We fight inequity, hate and ignorance, not feminism.

Hilscher · 2013-06-01T21:03:57+00:00

This sub needs less kidgloves and more spiked gauntlets. Seeing some of these feminist posts with so many points either means that this sub has more feminists in it than MRAs, or a very large percentage of these supposed MRAs are so desperate to be viewed as good guys that they're undermining their own cause.

I'm betting the latter.

Nomenimion · 2013-06-01T05:11:49+00:00

You've returned to discuss meaningless issues such as who brings in the groceries? Hooray!

I've noticed we aren't allowed to call false rape accusers names any more; I suppose that's part of the new sensitivity you mentioned.

theladyfromthesky · 2013-06-01T18:40:09+00:00

interesting word, clamhurt added to insult dictionary.

philinspirit · 2013-06-02T15:29:12+00:00

This has been a helpful discussion. Sorry about the offensive comments. Please just "scrape it off" and stay with us. I've gotten some offensive comments and also downvotes that seem unjustified, just for expressing opinions that some disgreed with. But if you are true to yourself, which you obviously are, you are going to get that kind of thing.

I think it's important that candor be encourged in this forum, because the biggest obstacle that the men's movement faces is that many men, and I would say most men, self-censor in order to please women. We tend to be emotionally dependent on the women in our lives, and we compete with other men instead of supporting them. So we tend to betray our own selves by supporting viewpoints that are anti-male. This subreddit is one of the very few forums I have found where that emotional dependency is called out, and where men speak their truth. I must say that although I have sometimes been offended a bit, I have learned a thing or two from reading this subreddit.

giegerwasright · 2013-06-01T20:18:51+00:00

I realized that I have never had a conversation with my fiancee about any qualms he has had as a man

Pretty revealing about where your priorities lie.

it was always me complaining.

That's essentially what feminism is. Politicized complaints by people who are entitled enough to think that other people should be fixing it for them.

I never considered the fact that when we get groceries I assume that he will bring them in because I am always the one that puts everything away.

You never considered it because of your privilege. You have had the privilege of being spared the hard work your whole life. When a vehicle shows up ready to unload, men are taught from a very young age that they are then to drop everything non essential and go help unpack the fucking truck. Helping unpack the truck is so fucking completely normalized for men that we don't even discuss it with one another. The truck show's up, we roll up our sleeves. We do the work.

Things like that that went over my head

This happens when you have only the intelligence to support a literal mind. Extrapolation of concept is necessary for the next level of intelligence.

like my willingness to joke about him in ways that would be inappropriate in reverse.

The problem isn't the joke. The problem is you being hypocritically cunty when he makes the same joke to you. That is the problem. You. But it takes more than a literal mind can handle to catch that.

fukuaneveryoneuknow · 2013-06-01T04:10:39+00:00

Not a man hater, but a feminist.

Godwin incoming.

Not a jew hater, but a nazi.

Action and even inaction speaks louder than words.

The actions and inaction of feminists have told a tale of hate.

Edit: it appears my disagreement with your hypocritical views means I'm attacking you.

Did I accidentally comment on an /r/feminism post?

2013-06-01T07:50:34+00:00

I understand your sentiment but please refrain from judgement of men in this subreddit. Angry or not, they are men and belong here.

CrossHook · 2013-06-01T16:49:06+00:00

If you believe in patriarchy theory then go kill yourself.

FUCK FEMINISM.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-06-02T13:00:59+00:00

It's good that this sub got you thinking about this.

Good input.

/also food for thought: consider why your feminist background never taught you to consider things from the make perspective if feminism is indeed about equality for all.

Nomenimion · 2013-06-02T19:44:33+00:00

As one of the "bad apples," I'd just like to say that I couldn't care less about who brings in the groceries at your house, and I would like to apologize for all of the man-kids who seem to think that your post has any significance whatsoever.

As for you, kids, here is your real MRA lesson for this week: don't pander to women (or hate them), and don't dive for the floor like a Calcutta begger every time a woman comes in here and throws a meaningless crumb at your feet.

iongantas · 2013-06-02T05:47:40+00:00

I think you can be a men's rights advocate and a women's rights advocate at the same time, but not an MRA and a feminist at the same time. Even if you don't personally hold any odious views, calling yourself a feminist gives tacit approval to things like 'patriarchy', 'privilege' and the general crappy ideas and hate spouted by the leaders of contemporary feminism.

SplashyMetal · 2013-06-01T07:15:25+00:00

So LMM, how has your coming out party been so far?

deadalnix · 2013-06-02T08:20:41+00:00

You are not a feminist anymore, you are a humanist. And that is a good thing.

Title	Dear the Mens Rights Movement,
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	219
Comments	330
Date	June 1, 2013 3:09 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1fg1tl/dear_the_mens_rights_movement/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/dear-the-mens-rights-movement.1172363 https://theredarchive.com/post/1172363

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