My college class recently discussed student expectations. Most of the women expected to have a good career, marry a man who earned same or more, share housework equally, not sacrifice her career for his. Have children around 30, have the choice to work or stay home after kids.

Shagata_Ganai · 2011-03-27T15:52:17+00:00

Problem for these women is, there aren't many guys that stupid who make real money.

Too fucking bad.

They'll just mistreat the guy they "settle for" and then make his life hell through child support.

A_Pathological_Liar · 2011-03-27T15:36:55+00:00

I think I feel more sorry for the kids these women may raise one day, and that they will be instilled with this same set of beliefs and ideals.

2011-03-27T15:35:31+00:00

Dudes said almost nothing, seemed to tune out.

Modern education in microcosm...

wingnut21 · 2011-03-27T18:45:32+00:00

What is particularly selfish is that a lot of women expect their husband to make more than her. Why does that matter? How is that equal?

If every wife wanted her husband to make more than her, how could we ever achieve wage equality?

We need to judge our professions by how much they contribute to society instead of how much money goes to the bank.

giveitawaynow · 2011-03-27T22:09:45+00:00

Was anyone surprised by this title? Seriously...are you back in 2001?

I'm surprised they didn't add, "Get married to start hubby @ 25, pop a kid or two, divorce, take everything, then play sex and the city then get married 'for real this time' by 30, get divorced about 1-2 more times, then either get a cat or another sucker."

It's not bitter, it's just realistic expectations on what actually happens. Don't be sad by this, take advantage of it.

AimlessArrow · 2011-03-27T23:10:51+00:00

They can't divorce you if you don't marry them.

VisIxR · 2011-03-27T15:23:55+00:00

Dudes said almost nothing, seemed to tune out.

Because guys have stopped caring what women think of them. If the system is rigged why play the game?

Those women may expect to find a man who will do all of this for her but it's unlikely that she will.

For men the best strategy is to learn game and have sex via short term relationships, never get married and never move in with a woman. Make your own money and live a carefree life.

If you want kids try and find a woman who wont divorce you and claim child support as soon as she gets bored with the relationship. (easier said than done and one reason why the birth rate is dropping).

otakuman · 2011-03-27T17:44:02+00:00

A close female friend (that I know very well) has a good career, married a man who earns way or more, they share housework equally, and she hasn't sacrificed her career for his. She's way over 30, has two little kids...

and her life IS A FUCKING MESS. They're filled with debts to the neck, she has so many things in her mind that has barely time to take care of her kids, can't afford a fulltime nanny, and is struggling with one of these MLM businesses to try to keep their income above their debts.

If that's your definition of success... well... good luck to you. You're gonna need it.

skooma714 · 2011-03-28T02:23:14+00:00

Notice how they seem to not like the idea of being with an otherwise good guy that earns less than they.

If love was something real income would be more random, but it isn't. You can only get as much love as you can pay for.

They also seem to think they have every right to expect the fucking world.

pvtshoebox · 2011-03-28T03:16:19+00:00

On my first day of college, the first-year advisor read the results of a survey conducted prior to the term. The question: "Do you think you will be in A) the top 50% of the class B) top 25% C top 10% or D) none of the above.

Not surprisingly, only 2% listed D, even though 50% of the students would eventually find their way into this boat. Most chose B (large majority).

The point: most college students, perhaps over-confident for making it into college, have expectations that exceed the average. Psychologically, it makes sense. Mathematically, many will be disappointed.

fondueguy · 2011-03-27T18:53:27+00:00

[permanently deleted]

thetrollking · 2011-03-28T01:02:27+00:00

Women recognized these expectations were tilted in their favor, but said they deserved it because they worked hard and were fairly critical of guys for not being more responsible and ambitious.

Dudes said almost nothing, seemed to tune out.

WTF? Women spend countless hours deconstructing male identities and they demonize the hard charging, hard working masculine identity and they force this shit on us as boys....then we become men who have been conditioned not to be ambitious and they fuckin bitch about that. What the fuck do they expect? I really wonder if women can understand cause and effect at all. What is truly amazing to me is that more boys and young men don't off their selfs or drug and drink themelves to death.

I guess it isn't really these girls fault. When boys were being torn down and deconstructed they were being pampered and lifting up and told they could do anything, while boys were punished for doing anything. IDK, I guess I just with the supposed empathetic and introspective gender would actually be what they claim and do some looking around instead of shaming guys.

falsehood · 2011-03-27T21:43:28+00:00

Most of the women expected to have a good career, marry a man who earned same or more, share housework equally, not sacrifice her career for his. Have children around 30, have the choice to work or stay home after kids.

Doesn't everyone want this stuff? I get why the stuff in the text box is problematic, but I would think a good career with similar-ish incomes would be desirable.....

hopeless_case · 2011-03-27T15:51:59+00:00

You told that story brilliantly. Well done.

Did you pick that particular set of expectations out of a much larger set that were discussed in one class (to illustrate unreasonableness), or did the discussion seem to naturally follow a fairly tight path that hit mostly those points?

abramN · 2011-03-28T02:41:58+00:00

I just think that both men and women need to think about themselves first. Guys: take care of yourself, make yourself a better person, and when the right woman comes along she won't be a drain to you or your pocketbook. There are losers, or duds, in both camps, so let's not make it an us vs. them situation. Seriously, if you have your sh*t together, and you can be a man (which includes standing up to someone who claims to be entitled to the sweat from your brow), then you've got nothing to worry about. The only tragedy is anyone that forgets who they are, and what they've accomplished for themselves, for the sake of someone else.

And also, what do you guys want out of life anyway? Do you want a companion or not? If you look at it from that angle, you might find that some of your expectations are not that different from a woman's: get a good job, find a good woman with similar ambitions for the future, and hope you don't get too screwed by the other person (in a bad way).

s0nicfreak · 2011-03-27T22:16:23+00:00

As a man I find it extremely difficult to respect a woman who's sole ambition is just to have kids so she can become a stay at home mom and do nothing all day and live off her husband. I look at these women as parasites, leeches, no good lazy bitches with over inflated entitlement issues.

RosieMuffysticks · 2011-03-27T19:38:17+00:00

Girls are being raised with those expectations now. When I was growing up, the schools pretty much taught us that we could have a family OR a career. My parents taught me that if a woman has a family and a job, that she is still subject to her husband's whim, and is expected to obey him. Also that her job is less important than his, if he has no job, she is to downplay her position as provider to soothe his ego.

My ex-husband was a spender, expecting to have his own salary to play with, and it was my job to pay the mortgage, the bills, and every other thing that was necessary for the household. When I became disabled, he had all kinds of shitfits over having to provide for us. Eventually, he left.

All these years later, I am a stay-home mom, in charge of housework, yardwork, household finances, and taking care of the kids. My husband works, and helps out whenever I need it. Our kids are being raised to understand that they are in charge of their lives, including having to work for what they want.

I do get child support from my ex-husband, but I figure his children are due that, since they had to go without so many times, because of his gambling, whores, and drinking habits that messed up our finances so often during our marriage.

I think that the public schools and the colleges/universities should be urging more balance between gender responsibilities. Partnership is a good thing. Truly bad parents should not have custody of children, but they should have to help support them.

dorky2 · 2011-03-27T17:40:09+00:00

You don't have to feel sorrier for either gender. IMO, we've both contributed to the problem and are partially responsible for this mess and neither of us deserves any sympathy.

I find it appalling that women think it should be their choice (alone) whether or not they stay home with the kids and that they think they should get custody of kids in a divorce. I can understand not wanting to sacrifice her career for his career, but sacrificing your career for the sake of your family is not the same thing. I see nothing wrong with wanting to have children around the age of 30. And sharing housework equally isn't inherently unfair, it's only unfair if other responsibilities (like making money) are not equally shared.

punkypoet · 2011-03-28T02:26:23+00:00

O.K., I'm ready for the down votes because I have to ask, what is wrong with wanting that? While I don't agree that the woman should automatically get sole custody of kids in a divorce scenario, I agree with most of it.

Have a good career. The economy sucks and most people won't have a good career for a while, but who doesn't want one?
Marry someone who earns the same or more. I assume that everyone wants someone who has the same financial expectations as themselves. Many women want the husband to make more so that they have the option of being a SAHM (see below).
Share housework equally. If you work the same amount of hours in the week (and that includes looking after small children all day), you should absolutely share the household work equally.
Not sacrifice her career for his. Just as he should not sacrifice his career for hers. If someone doesn't want to, say, support someone through grad school or move across the country when they have the potential to have a great job where they are, then those are things you might not choose to marry someone because of (whether it is you or the other person who shares those views).
Have children around 30. Sounds good. Still healthy but older, wiser, more willing to give up staying out on Friday and sleeping in on Saturday.
Have the choice to work or stay home with kids. As I said in #2, if it is a financial possibility, women should have the ability to stay home with kids if she chooses. Some women want to, some don't. Some women think they won't want to and discover that they do. There are pros and cons to doing both.
If return to work, get the same salary. Unless she is involved in a rapidly changing field, why wouldn't she get the same salary, and probably adjusted for inflation if it's been a long time. Nobody has gone back in time and erased how much she's put into her career already. If she is a teacher and she taught for five years before having kids, and takes a few years off, she still has five years under her belt. However, if she works in a field like law, and gave up the right to make junior partner by becoming a SAHM, she will have to work to get nominated for that again. Also, the amount of time she has stayed home will affect whether or not she can expect to go back to the same company in the exact same position.
O.K., I definitely agree that if both parents are capable of parenting (non addicts, sane, have a place to live, etc.) they should get equal custody. Are working single moms still penalized for having to put their kids in day care? Should it make a difference if the mother is still single and works and the father has married someone who is able to stay home with the kids? Probably not.
Dudes not saying anything, not being ambitious... Women are graduating college at a faster rate. Why? There's probably lots of reasons. But by tuning out and saying nothing, I doubt men are helping themselves.

So, please, there is a reason that I subscribe to /mensrights. Tell me what I am missing.

wild-tangent · 2011-03-28T23:03:52+00:00

"Dudes" tune out because it's easier than correcting an entire room. You can say something, but it's your funeral. You realize that it's her taking your kids, and you just shrug, because you don't plan to have kids, and figure "well I won't marry anyone here." Guys are all too used to being told they aren't responsible enough for one thing or another. It's easier to just humor these people, short term.

It is going to be a rude awakening when these women get into their thirties to find that men have no interest in letting women have most of fulfilling most of these expectations. I therefore feel sorrier for the women, because the men have every right to demand a pretty hefty pre-nuptial that includes child visitation or the children in the event of a breakup, as well as to stipulate the demands of child support if they should split.

At least these women realized their expectations were slanted.

NoPleases · 2011-03-27T18:54:32+00:00

With the exception of the child custody issues I really don't understand what the problem here is. My estrogen may inhibit my reasoning here but isn't all the rest a reasonable dream for a 20 year old to have? Honest question, where is the inequality?

Fatalistic · 2011-03-27T21:54:53+00:00

Apart from this (which is obviously unfair)

If divorce, then get custody of kids - cause I should not be penalized for working hard and, after all, they will be MY kids.

What's wrong with what they wanted? In my eye, everyone regardless of gender should strive for a good career, to marry an equal, to not sacrifice their career for another person, to have children while they are fertile and healthy, and have the choice between working and staying home?

luciansolaris · 2011-03-27T17:25:08+00:00

Apart from

If divorce, then get custody of kids - cause I should not be penalized for working hard and, after all, they will be MY kids

I can't really see anything messed up about this. Anyone care to explain for the ignorant?

2011-03-27T18:48:31+00:00

I'm really having a hard time trying to figure out what's wrong with the expectations in the title...

I understand the problem with custody of kids.. But otherwise uh.. What's wrong with this?

barbadosslim · 2011-03-27T19:40:31+00:00

sounds mostly reasonable except for the full custody part

baconOclock · 2011-03-27T17:22:38+00:00

Vouloir le beurre et l'argent du beurre. It doesn't make sense to me that women have children in their 30s when they make healthier babies in their 20s but whatever I guess indepence means a lot more than the sake of our specie. When I'll be 30+ and I've got all my shit together I will deserve a younger fertile woman to have children with. I don't want a career women who support the family I just want her to raise my fucking babies and prepare them to conquer the world.

sinsyder · 2011-03-28T03:12:28+00:00

Bitches are going to die lonely.

arrrrrrrrrr · 2011-03-27T17:10:11+00:00

not that hard for a guy to make more than a woman... we make more even in the same job.