Someone Gets It!

[+]umar4812 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (22 children) | Copy Link

Great tweet, but you're a little late. That tweet is old as hell.

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[+]PaulMurrayCbr points 9 years ago* [recovered] (51 children) | Copy Link

Step 2 - once you get your electrical engineering certification, don't take a decade off to have some kids.

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[+]PaulMurrayCbr points 9 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Agreed, but this is not systemic discrimination on the part of men and society. More simply: yes, but we are not to blame.

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[+]unbelievablepeople points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

a woman has to take a break

Has to? No. Most women choose to, but they're not forced to take maternity leave if they don't want to.

[–]gamerlady1937 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]unbelievablepeople points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

This may come as a shock to you, but some families prefer to have the father stay home and look after the baby while the mother works. There are also families of two mothers, two fathers or other arrangements and they can decide for themselves how they'll balance work and caring for a new baby. Each family can decide for itself. That's what equality looks like.

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You can't reasonably argue that paying well means that teachers will be less inclined to do well. I've seen too many teachers leave for better opportunities elsewhere, people that liked teaching and were effective teachers, because the amount of work and personal investment that goes into it isn't commensurate with the pay and they can find easier jobs that pay way better.

Paying teachers well just makes the market more competitive, it means that teachers would have to be good and motivated. As is, there are people teaching especially at the high school level because it can be quite easy to get the job due to low competition. Those are the people you don't want. Yeah the pay is shit but if they do just enough to float by it's a very low effort job. As soon as you engage and start doing more it becomes a much more challenging and taxing job.

So that's the problem now. And paying teachers more does nothing but fix that. Once you start making the salaries competitive, more talented and driven people will be able to do it instead of moving their skill sets to other fields.

[–]w76 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think you reach the wrong conclusion about pay. Teaching attracts one of the lowest pools of average SAT scores, because people with higher ability are attracted to higher compensation even if teaching as an idea sounds nice. Because of the low pay, and low standards, there's ample supply, particularly in elementary education. (Note all the elementary education majors working in retail) There'd be nothing wrong with attracting highly capable people with good pay. Raise pay, raise standards, and you'd get what you want. The downside is, naturally, some low performing teachers would have to go. The cost of education isn't really driven by teacher pay anyway. Someone below mentioned admin, that's a big part, some of it is standard corruption in procurement, etc. (I have personal experience in seeing how schools overpay for new facilities, maintenance, other contracts, particularly in shady circumstances with relatives of school board members, etc)

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[+]Xyexs points 9 years ago [recovered] (61 children) | Copy Link

I can't find the data right now, but I'm pretty sure that even in the same fields women earn less on average.

[–]the_peoples_elbow91 63 points64 points65 points 9 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

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It isn't that women are being shafted for doing the same work. Part of it is that society still expects professional women to raise children despite the men focusing on careers. That's why women tend to take lower paying, stable, less long hours jobs while men can take more risks, and work longer hours.

For example, I work in a law firm where all three Partners are men. They've dedicated their careers and lives to long billing hours, while their wives can take care of the kids. There are women who are lawyers who have been there for just as long, but take 2 days out of the week or leave at 5:30 each day (instead of doing the expected overtime) who are still making roughly the same they made when they started because they have a family to raise.

This is one of the actual reasons the wage gap exists, I'm open to any responses (except "well the woman doesn't have to have any children" excuse - society and family still pressure women to have children as well)

[–]typhonblue 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]headphones66 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

What is pressuring women to make these choices is their own biological urges and desire for "life/work balance".

Right, because no man or husband has ever wanted to have kids with their wife or significant other.

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[+]SwordfshII points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

If the pay gap were real, all company's would solely hire women and save a fortune on salary.

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I can't find the data right now, but I'm pretty sure that even in the same fields women earn less on average.

Sure, because same field is not the same job. People just lie and say that it is.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/why-gender-gap-won%E2%80%99t-go-away-ever-13395.html

But proofers often make the claim that women earn less than men doing the exact same job. They can’t possibly know that. The Labor Department’s occupational categories can be so large that a woman could drive a truck through them. Among “physicians and surgeons,” for example, women make only 64.2 percent of what men make. Outrageous, right?

Not if you consider that there are dozens of specialties in medicine: some, like cardiac surgery, require years of extra training, grueling hours, and life-and-death procedures; others, like pediatrics, are less demanding and consequently less highly rewarded. Only 16 percent of surgeons, but a full 50 percent of pediatricians, are women. So the statement that female doctors make only 64.2 percent of what men make is really on the order of a tautology, much like saying that a surgeon working 50 hours a week makes significantly more than a pediatrician working 37.

[–]switzerland -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[+]ae_bb_u_wn_sum_fuk points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Men are shafting themselves by choosing to have sex and get woman pregnant.

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how are women getting shafted if they are making a free choice? If you ask men and women what they look for in a job you will get different answers.

First off there was a study done (which i cant seem to find right now so take this with a grain of salt) where they wanted to determined job preferences of men and women. They found that overall men much more preferred to work with objects, and women more more preferred to work with people.

Second when you ask men and women what characteristics they are looking for in a job, i guarantee that money is one of the most important things for men when they are looking for a job. On the other hand for women there is a much higher interest in shorter commutes, shorter hours, flexible hours, etc.

If you want to make the point that as a society we should not have and semblance of gender roles and have no cultural pressures, i think its practically impossible. We evolved in a way that promoted gender roles and division of labor because that is what helped our species get to where it is today. In the end you are trying to shape a culture which goes against our biology which is a battle you are rarely going to win. Men are always going to be predisposed to being breadwinners and women are going to be predisposed to being caretakers, the only thing we can do is not punish or discourage people who want to do something different. As long as people are making their own free choices there isn't a problem we can fix.

[–]Bulletproofmonk 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]LvS 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That's the common explanations that people always give. But I'm not sure if those are just retroactively made up explanations.

First of all, your explanations are all universal, so well-paying jobs shouldn't differ across cultures. But some countries pay for example teachers way better than other countries.

Then your explanations are not really measurable, so you can't apply them to compare all jobs, ie I'm not sure how to compare the relative danger of being a cop with that of a construction worker or a nuclear scientist. Heck, how much more should cops in Detroit earn than those in Bradford, VT?

And last but not least the explanations don't explain how jobs came to be described the way they are. In particular liability is a thing that in some jobs is included (structural engineering) and in some jobs it isn't (software engineering) - even though in both of these jobs people just use computers to make liability-relevant decisions anyway.

TL;DR: While those explanations look good on the surface, I don't think they work.

[–]Jesus_marley 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

First of all, your explanations are all universal, so well-paying jobs shouldn't differ across cultures. But some countries pay for example teachers way better than other countries.

There will always be outliers. that does no invalidate the core truth. There are objective realities that transcend cultural biases. In places where dangerous work is a voluntary exercise (that is, not done by slaves), compensation is generally higher as a means of enticing people to volunteer. If working as a walmart cashier paid more than being a miner, no one would be a miner.

It also isn't about how much compensation one area gets in comparison to other areas for similar positions. Country A may pay teachers twice as much as country B. but then the question becomes how much does Country A also pay its miners compared to its teachers?

I'm not sure how to compare the relative danger of being a cop with that of a construction worker or a nuclear scientist. Heck, how much more should cops in Detroit earn than those in Bradford, VT?

Relative danger is only one variable. and the differences in wages again are a function of many variables. The point is that relative danger is a large factor (but not the only one) in determining the relative compensation. Other factors include, but are not limited to, demand, supply, education, attractiveness of the job, perceived effort, stress, even non tangible factors such as respect, glory, and excitement can factor in.

In particular liability is a thing that in some jobs is included (structural engineering) and in some jobs it isn't (software engineering) - even though in both of these jobs people just use computers to make liability-relevant decisions anyway.

WRT my engineering example, the liability involved should your building or bridge fail during or worse, after construction, is enormous. not only are there enormous financial consequences, but the potential for injury and death also factor in.

Again, these are not factors that exist in a bubble. you can't take any single one and say This is the reason, but they are factors that affect the outcome, and you simply cannot dismiss them because you don't like what they do.

[+]LvS -7 points-6 points-5 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Jesus_marley 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

This is where the other factors that I spoke about come in. If working on an oil derrick was as exciting and glamourous as being an astronaut, High pay wouldn't likely be as important as a deciding factor. Also there is the novelty factor, as the percentage of the population that have actually gone into space is miniscule. Once space travel becomes something commonplace, monetary compensation will once again move to the forefront of factors inticing people into the job. The fact that working on an oil derrick is objectively less glamourous and exciting now, means that the monetary compensation needs to be higher comparatively, assuming that you are correct in the assumption that astronauts do not get paid a lot of money. I've honestly never looked it up.

EDIT: I just looked it up. Staring pay for an astronaut in the US starts at 66,000/year and can go as high as 144,000. an oil rig roughneck starts at around 34,000 to 52,000/year and depending on whether they get promoted to other positions can make as much as 100,000.

[–]Pathfinder24 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Destroyer_SC 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Men are going to go toward jobs that pay more, because that is what they value most in a job. They will accept more risk of injury, worse hours, less flexible hours and worse work environments for more pay. Whereas women will value other things more and sacrifice pay. As an anecdote for example, I worked in a dog day care where i worked with dogs, could request off days i didnt want to work or request certain shifts. Then i worked in a machine shop where there was 1 shift, every day not a very fun work environment, much more risk of injury and harder work. In one of them i was one of 3 guys, the other there is 1 woman, Guess which one is which and guess which one pays more.

Edit: Also see the "nordic gender equality paradox" where the more choice men and women have, the bigger disparity there is in these types of fields.

[–]LvS 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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ok first of all, being unemployed is not equivalent to a low paying job at all as i doubt if any of them had a choice, they wouldn't be unemployed. I dont know why you would make the connection that unemployment is an occupation it just makes no sense at all. The only point i was making is that pay is the primary motivating factor for men, whereas for women it was not as much of a factor. I was more looking for a source for your first claim on the gender disparity by pay grade.

There are alot of "low paying jobs" done by men. But term is relative to where you are working. You will find alot of men in factory work which in the context of the economy is low paying, but in the context of someone who is middle or lower class, pays pretty decently. So yes there are alot of men in low paying jobs, but there are alot of women who work in low paying jobs as well as part time. If you want a source, see every video or article debunking the wage gap, and they will have plenty of sources.

[–]LvS 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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You shouldn't project your own disgusting personality onto other normal people. Life as a nice guy must be hard.

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[+]RoastedMocha points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I don't think that was the point at all.

[–]the_peoples_elbow91 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Lulwafahd -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

It bears relevance to what I said the first time. You mischaracterised my entire statement which is based not only on my personal experience, but in studying the phenomenon too.

It was as if you didn't recognise someone could be telling the truth because it disagreed with your perspective despite the fact that I myself am a woman who works in a STEM environment, and you are apparently not, as are not the men who initiated the comment thread.

Many women leave a field because of the same type of reasons as what is happening to me in this conversation.

What I said was mischaracterised and discounted out of hand despite the fact that I was and am speaking knowledgeably about the issue from the inside out.

It isn't as though the science, programming, or maths are some mystical concepts most women are incapable of achieving understanding of and doing a job with. No, the work forces are often notoriously unbearable for women due to many factors, such as the way men respond to the sound of a woman's voice, judging their contributions through a gendered perception of them, and many other similar events.

http://www.businessinsider.com/7-things-keeping-women-out-of-science-2013-10

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[+]RoastedMocha points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

They can't hear you over the raging typhoon that is their circlejerk. I need to get off this fuckin site.

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[+]Merouxsis points 9 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

No, i just get a vibe from you, not sure about what it is tho, but its definantly something.

[–]Lulwafahd 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]RoastedMocha points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Compared to her comment history, you look like a boring boring simpleton.

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[–]iBreakAway 39 points40 points41 points 9 years ago (39 children) | Copy Link

Much less the wage gap isn't women in general vs men, it is the people in same field same job.

And I've yet to see an actual fair comparison between the two. Comparing two people in the same field only isn't fair. You need to compare things like actual experience, or other skills that one may bring over the other.

Also why do these Feminazi's who believe in the wage gap never bring up the fact that being a women in a stem field gives you an advantage over men. Women are more likely to be hired even if they are less qualified than a male simply because it makes the company look better. And women in the stem field have it easier for scholarships if they're in school as well.

But you will never see your average idiotic Feminazi say that... despite claiming they want equality for both men and women.

[–]seahorses 38 points39 points40 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[+]diametric points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

for academic positions

Lol okay, they can have those.

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[+]renloo points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Sure, I don't dispute that. What I am saying is that in the software industry, right now, they will hire a less capable woman over a man for diversity reasons. It has nothing to do with what people imagine when they close their eyes or whatever, it has everything to do with looking good on paper. My sister also worked in software and noticed this as well.
Of course every company is different, I can't speak for all of them, this is just something I've noticed in the industry. I have been to conferences with HR / hiring managers for tech companies and they use coded language to basically say the same thing 'we need to minimize attrition for employees from diverse backgrounds' (paraphrased of course, I don't remember the exact wording but you get the picture).

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[+]Cute_single_grl points 9 years ago [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

Wrong, in STEM fields, men are hired before women: http://gender.stanford.edu/news/2014/why-does-john-get-stem-job-rather-jennifer

[–]EtherMan 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'd suggest you actually go read the actual study for that link. You can find that at http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474.full.pdf if you wish, along with the supplements at http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2012/09/16/1211286109.DCSupplemental/pnas.201211286SI.pdf

As an example, the ones rating it, was aware of what they were rating. As in, they were aware that this was a study about gender hiring practices. The only thing they didn't know was that the person they're evaluating was fictitious. Now, that's a HUUUUGE no no in these types of studies, because you're now directly causing people that want to show that there is a difference, to give answers that portray that. Point being, that the study is not as rigorous as it's made out to be. There's a lot of research you can show to that that are much better. Don't use faulty studies that did not pass peer review when trying to make a point. Use proper ones that do.

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By using "actual fair" what are you referring to and what is your heuristic for fairness. It's a pretty tough area to study as their are many variables. It's really hard for there to be a studied of 'true' qualifications. As there is no 'reals scotsman'. (Referring to the informal fallacy)

Myself, being an software engineer, I work with typically 90%+ males which is off of that by degree by a large margin. Having been involved in the hiring of many individuals, I find it can go both ways mostly depending on the company. Currently 8 : 12 people on my direct team are blonde males, 2 gray hair males, and 2 brown haired males. All white. The diversity of thought is pretty terrible. No one asked the 'dumb' questions and so many times we miss 'dumb' answers. I feel it is our right to have women in the work place. If not for their rights, for men's damn rights.. we deserve more from life than white boyz club, which imo is kinda lame.

[–]iBreakAway 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

By using "actual fair" what are you referring to and what is your heuristic for fairness

You cannot say 2 people with the same degree are equals when one person could have fished with a higher GPA or have taken a bunch of internship while in school and has more experience. Pretty simple.

I feel it is our right to have women in the work place

This is the dumbest thing I've read today. Is anyone stopping women from going into stem fields? In fact, women HAVE AN ADVANTAGE WHEN GOING INTO STEM FIELDS! It's not anyone's fault that the majority of women either do not want to work for a degree in stem or do not find it interesting.

we deserve more from life than white boyz club, which imo is kinda lame.

Why don't you feminazis ever bring up the fact that there are many jobs out there where men are a minority? Why isn't that an issue?

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Of course comments are disabled on the video you posted ("Check out this vid"). I had it muted, but I knew exactly what they were saying based on the video. They trotted out the tired old logically fallacious argument that "since pink used to be a boy's color, that means that all ideas about sex differences were randomly created out of nothing". First of all, that doesn't follow logically. Second, it seems much more likely to me that pink became a girl's color because little girls kept showing a preference for pink and so society went along with it. It's scientifically proven that females' eyes are more sensitive to shades of red than males' eyes, and that they can see more shades of red than males can. Therefore it seems highly likely that they would more often choose a shade of red (such as pink) as their favorite color.

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[+]CountDodo points 9 years ago [recovered] (19 children) | Copy Link

But everything you just said goes against Men's Rights. Did you say men should have the same right as women to stay home and raise the kids? How burdens should be equally shared between both men and women?

No, you just whined about how men should earn more because of their societal roles.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

How so? Men and women can be different while still being equal. I think you're confusing men and women on the whole versus individuals. Every individual should have the right to have a child or work, or do both (women). And men can choose to work or starve.

But on the whole, women must have children, or the species will end. Beyond that, earning is just an arithmetic problem; even if women stopped working for 9 months, are men just supposed to sit around? Men are going to still work in jobs that pregnant women can't, which will yield more earning for men on the whole. Of course, women can choose to do the same jobs as men, earn the same money, and be equal by your definition, but then there will be no humans in ~100 years.

And I'm not whining; I'm gay, and don't even have a dog in this fight. Please try to read and think critically before criticizing.

[–]letsfuckinrage 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]CountDodo points 9 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

Every individual should have the right to have a child or work, or do both (women). And men can choose to work or starve.

So once again, women have to choose to have kids or work, but men don't have that choice?

And do you honestly believe that women can't work while pregnant? What the fuck are you on? Maternity/Paternity leave is about giving parents the right to choose who takes care of the kid AFTER the child is born. Engineers, Scientists, Doctors, Lawyers Pharmacists, Managers, etc. can keep working while pregnant. Do you really think that construction workers and coal miners are the ones 'tilting' the 'wage gap' towards the men's side?

I would say the same thing, please try to read and think critically before opening your mouth, but I honestly doubt you can. If you somehow think it's labor intensive jobs that are the highest paid and that maternity leave is about not working during pregnancy then the complete disconnect you have with the real world can't be fixed by just reading and thinking.

[–]iongantas 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]CountDodo points 9 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

WTF are you talking about? Nothing you said makes any sense. Honestly, do you have a brain you can use? Because I assure you that would really come in handy.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[+]CountDodo points 9 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

You're a complete idiot, aren't you? A woman can give birth and be working 2 weeks later fully recovered. A 2 week break has no impact on your career.

Instead you seem to think that being pregnant means you're out for 9 months. Even if you're gay this is still something you should know. I have no idea how you can be so detached from reality.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ignigenaquintus 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Well, feminists have stopped the proposals for both men having the right to forfeit their father rights and the economic responsibilities that come with them and giving equal probability of having custody of the children in case of divorce. Therefore, if the so claimed defenders of equality don't want men having the right to decide if and when they want to be fathers nor their right to mainting access to those children how is it that feminists demand that men are equally responsible in the economic consequences of having children?

Also, there is this absurd and undemonstrated hypothesis that the children are better of with their mothers, this is exploited in order to gain custody in cases of divorce, how is it that the same argument that we accept when women are benefited can't be used here? Just because now women aren't the beneficiaries of such stupid belief?

Bottom line, when men have the same rights than women, specifically in regards to reproductive rights and custody of his children, then a claim of inequality in regards to the effects that having children have on work careers could be made without being disingenuous.

[+]CountDodo points 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

You seem to really enjoy rambling on about feminism. So much so that your entire point is lost.

[–]ignigenaquintus 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Please don't assume that your opinion is everybody's opinion nor that the validity of an argument depends on its popularity.

In regards to what you call "rambling on about feminism"

1.- My comment is perfectly on topic as answer to yours. Including mentioning feminism due to the parent commentary. I don't enjoy criticizing anything but if it's on topic then I don't see the problem.

2.- Feminism isn't perfect, if you are serious about equality maybe having an open mind about posible issues in which feminism hasn't been in the right side may be positive. When something is so sacred than a critique on a specific subject is considered reason to believe that the whole opinion in which it was mentioned is unworthy of consideration then we are talking about radicalism.

3.- I don't see any answer to the points I made save saying that because my arguments include critiques to feminism then "your entire point is lost". This attitude speaks volumes.

[+]CountDodo points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Please don't assume that your opinion is everybody's opinion nor that the validity of an argument depends on its popularity.

I didn't, I just said your comment pointlessly rambles on about feminism and I for one am not particularly interested in searching through the crap to find a relevant statement to my post. If you want to whine about feminism this and feminism that then go ahead, just don't expect other people to eagerly welcome pointless and derailing comments.

There's a difference between Men's Rights and Anti-Feminism. If your post is about the former than I'm all ears, if your post is about the latter then I'm just not interested.

[–]ignigenaquintus 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If you refuse to read it how are you going to know what it is about?

Stay on topic, read the post and answer the arguments. Otherwise that is an answer in itself and you already have my answer to that attitude in the second post.

I could give you examples on how feminism is working against men's rights and therefore how your claim that men's rights and anti-feminism are unrelated don't sustain, but because you simple asume that because you believe the contrary and me criticizing feminism gives you some legitimacy for you "not particularly interested in searching through the crap to find a relevant statement to my post. " it wouldn't make any sense for me to write as you wouldn't even read it. I will save my efforts to communicate on someone interested on communication and not just having their ideas validated. I will not answer any more comments on this thread.

[–]CountDodo -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

Is it okay for men to earn more than women?

Yes. Women have uteruses, and are thus able to contribute to society and the progression of humanity in the form of childbearing, which men cannot do. Men, in turn, must derive their value from somewhere else, which historically has been resource gathering.

Can we expect women to both bear children AND gather resources on par with men? Yes, but that seems a bit unfair to demand more of women. Unless we take uteruses out of the equation with test-tube babies, biology dominates this decision.

Of course, this is for men and women on the whole, not individually. Individual women can and do outearn and outcompete men, but this is relatively rare.

Do men and women inherently play different roles >in society?

Again yes, on the whole for the reasons above. Individually, women can choose to be work horses, and just earn money their whole lives, but the species will not continue if all women choose this.

What is wrong with income redistribution?

Quite a few things, but most of which are not germane to this subreddit. When courts bias against men, meaning women end up with child custody more frequently, and take assets in a divorce, it hurts the reasons to be productive at all. Why should a man be anything but selfish (meaning only looking after himself; no kids, no wife) if he will likely end up alone paying alimony or child support based on someone else's whimsical decision? Why not just play video games, watch porn, drink, and hire prostitutes if the benefits of marriage are turned into liabilities?

[–]ChrisBabyYea 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I'm perfectly open to this. The difficulty comes in practicality; do both parents have a part-time job, the sum of the income of which (in my experience having two jobs in college) is less that of one full-time job?

My main biological argument is that women will have some time while being pregnant in which they cannot be as productive as men, all else equal. Thus when you take all men vs. all women, men are likely going to outearn women for this reason alone.

I definitely believe that both parents need to be involved in the raising of children. The issue is that women are not necessarily going to earn the same amount as men because they put so much more energy into the process of childbearing. And there is nothing wrong with that- same as with women making the other choices that tends to lead to them earning less (fewer hours, more breaks, etc.), but there is a consequence for everyone's actions.

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misogyny incarnate

Because you can't have any negative criticism of females without automatically being Hate incarnate...

Give us a fucking break. That word literally means "Hatred of Women" yet it gets trotted out by ignorant sheep like you anytime someone dares to say anything slightly negative about a female.

That is conditioning and you aren't even aware of it. You've been conditioned your whole life to view females as being pure and anything negative about them has to be viewed as hatred. Can you not see how stupid this makes you sound??

It is perfectly acceptable to call someone, a group or an organization out on something without hating them. It is perfectly acceptable to criticize a societal mindset or policy without hate ever entering into the picture.

The reason why you see so much anti feminism stuff posted here is because of the very conditioning you are expertly displaying. Men can have no voice in society so long as everything we say is viewed through the lens of conditioning. Making you interpret everything you see as toxic hatred when it is mere criticism or Gasp ridicule.

When you see guys ridiculing other guys about something do you instantly think they hate men? No. Because that is stupid and you haven't been conditioned to do so.

misogyny incarnate... Get the fuck out of here with that nonsense.

We post anti feminism stuff here so often because it is a very real enemy we are fighting. For every step forward we fight for we get reamed three steps back by a society so blinded by conditioning that they can no longer think clearly. We have to open their (your) eyes to the truth before any real dialogue can begin. The truth that modern feminism is a joke and should no longer be seen as anything remotely resembling the once noble movement it started out as. It has morphed into a movement designed to create perma victims instead of strong women. We here can see this clearly and we attempt daily to educate others, like you, who still see the world as black and white.

That is what it has to do with Mens rights.

[–]SpurmQueen 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]Leto2Atreides 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SpurmQueen -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You are still not saying anything with substance, and I truly don't understand the argument. From the first post.

You've been conditioned your whole life to view females as being pure and anything negative about them has to be viewed as hatred.

No. I can tell the difference between valid criticism and hatred. I'm a rational adult.

It is perfectly acceptable to call someone, a group or an organization out on something without hating them. It is perfectly acceptable to criticize a societal mindset or policy without hate ever entering into the picture.

I agree completely. But the argument is that this is an impossibility for women. See point #1.

You can't just say, "You're brainwashed to think X" and then provide no support or clarification whatsoever. Every time I ask for details, people tell me it doesn't matter because I'm brainwashed. I still haven't seen one rational argument. Just opinions.

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[–]PornoAlForno 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What in the fuck has this to do with "men's rights"?

In case you were out of the loop:

The wage gap is a myth often touted by feminists as an example of "patriarchy" or "male privilege" despite the actual gap being smaller than claimed and due mostly to personal choices rather than discrimination.
Christina Hoff Sommers is a somewhat controversial feminist and men's rights advocate who has done quite a bit of work on the topic.
In the quote above (which is admittedly quite old) she's mocking those who undertake studies which require the acceptance of the wage gap myth, because they are choosing lower paying degrees over the degrees which lead to careers they claim women are "forced out of."

This subreddit is just misogyny incarnate.

What misogyny exactly? I see no misogyny here, unless pointing out irony that those complaining most about the wage gap choose lower paying studies in favor of useful yet challenging high-paid degrees, is now misogyny.

Remember everyone, even criticising women is now misogyny, what a joke.

Men's rights are not anti-feminist rights.

"Feminist rights" isn't a thing. Women =/= feminist, feminist =/= women, equating the two is a pretty common, very underhanded tactic used by feminists.
Feminism is one of the buggest roadblocks to men's rights. Challenging feminist ideology and narratives is critical to men's rights.

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According to this, no one agrees on if it is or isn't.

The way BLS categorizes nursing is complicated (as, it seems, is the way most people seem to categorize nursing): While it's included in a very broad list of STEM fields, it's more properly categorized under a secondary STEM "domain," along with other health-related professions. When asked why the agency categorizes nursing the way it does, a spokesperson was careful to note that "there’s no single official definition of 'STEM,' and a different one might work better for another user."

& the opposite

The Department of Commerce , on the other hand, takes its cues from the National Science Foundation, which supports "all fields of fundamental science and engineering." Nursing is an applied field, not necessarily focused on the fundamentals of physical sciences. No pure science research, no STEM designation. (Going beyond NSF designations, the DOC also doesn't consider social sciences to be STEM.)

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How would equal gender ratios in these fields be met

So you have a pre-determined ratio that needs to be met? How have you come up with that ratio? Why should it be always 50%? You start with the presumption that the outcome of a just society MUST result in that ratio and when you don't see one, you cry foul that patriarchy is responsible for unbalanced ratio and the society is unjust.

If women are free to make their choices and those choices are different from what men make you turn around and blame men for that situation?

Its a jungle out there. Regardless of the civilized society that we have created, its a jungle out there. Fight it and win. Men do it. Women want to join the party, they should fight the fight men do. Feminism must teach women how to fight and win and not whine and cry. Leopard doesn't plead the pig for a meal; it ambushes, hunts, kills and eats it.

[–]goodbeertimes 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is not only pointing out where women are oppressed but also where men are oppressed.

To justify or strengthen the case for oppression, Feminists are baiting for allies among men claiming that they are also oppressed and they are fighting the same fight. Weak, stupid, opportunistic, beta simp idiots who are lazy to kick themselves in their butts into action have now found an easy way out and reason that they are oppressed and join the flag carrying useless march party.

eh! men are oppressed!

Life is hard. Success is hard. Instead of teaching skills to succeed, Feminism has created an industry around this Oppression narrative. Can you solve any of the real problems with any of the contributions of Feminism. May be a better sanitary product for women? more women friendly toilet (commode ?). Nothing! Zilch! Zero!

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"For this study, the author inspects the relationship between segregation in the workplace (measured as the proportion female in job cells) and the gender wage gap using linked longitudinal employer-employee data from the German Employment Register. He extends the literature by controlling for nonrandom sorting of workers into job cells, establishments, and occupations. In line with previous studies, the pooled least squares estimates show that the gender wage gap increases as the job -cell-level proportion of females increases. This increase is attributable to the fact that women experience greater wage declines than men do when additional women enter their job cells. Controlling additionally for unobserved heterogeneity at the individual, establishment, occupation, and job -cell levels considerably reduces the size of the proportion female effects on women's wages while rendering the effects on men's wages insignificant or even positive. The same controls also significantly decrease the proportion effects on the wage gap . The related sorting analysis shows that a good deal of the proportion effects can be explained by unobserved individual ability and suggests that especially women working in job cells with small proportions of females show above-average unobserved individual ability." LUDSTECK, J. (2014). THE IMPACT OF SEGREGATION AND SORTING ON THE GENDER WAGE GAP: EVIDENCE FROM GERMAN LINKED LONGITUDINAL EMPLOYER- EMPLOYEE DATA. ILR Review, 67(2), 362-394. TL;DR- Women tend to have large wage gaps when there are more women in the same job with similar qualifications. Wage gap appears to be more based on unaccounted for, perceived differences such as work ethic, productivity, etc. when the ratio of male:female is more male. There is also academic studies that suggest that the gender of the hiring manager correlates more with issues with wage gap between men and women working similar jobs with similar qualifications.

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Comments

notallmen, just enough for it to still be a bad thing.

Title	Someone Gets It!
Author	Gocountgrainsofsand
Upvotes	9364
Comments	444
Date	April 15, 2017 8:07 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/65l4sw/someone_gets_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/someone-gets-it.925703 https://theredarchive.com/post/925703