Hey, I just have a quick question!

TracyMorganFreeman · 2012-12-20T07:13:42+00:00

Both movements(or at least to appear to) agree on seeking equality, but the major schism is ontological, not ideological.

They disagree on how to measure equality, and they disagree on how to define power and oppression. There are not universal positions on any one thing for either movement, but it is clear that certain ontological views pervade each side, and the prevalent views on each side do not agree with each other.

Another major problem in political discourse in general is the confusion between opposition to the intents of a movement and opposition to the methods used to achieve those goals. Being anti-feminist(which much like 'feminist' itself is a hard term to nail down) does not necessarily imply being anti-woman or anti-equality.

Another thing to remember is that what feminist theory says, what everyday feminists view, and what feminist advocacy has achieved do not necessarily comport with each other. Intentional or not, feminist advocacy does shoulder some of the blame for the harm of men in its quest for helping women. The MRM in part exists in opposition to harmful policy, regardless of how earnest and pure its intentions are, which includes scrutiny of feminism; this isn't to say the entirety of feminism, but the other major problem which I would attribute to simply being unaware is that in treating feminism as a homogeneous movement for equality, genuinely harmful advocacy is given tacit legitimacy by other feminists. Again for the majority of well intentioned people who identify as feminsts I would attribute this to being unaware of its effects and not apathy.

I could go into more detail on these statements more if you wish, and feel free to ask for any clarifying/amplifying information.

EvilPundit · 2012-12-20T05:43:35+00:00

Welcome, and thank you for your honest question.

I don't have time to go into details, but in many ways the current Men's Rights Movement has arisen because of feminism - in particular, the ways in which feminism blames men (AKA "patriarchy") for all the bad things in the world, and the ways in which feminism attacks equal rights for men.

As a feminist, you probably won't feel comfortable here. But if you really want to know why we are the way we are, stick around for a week or two. Read the top posts and the comments. That's how you'll learn all about us.

Edit: I think there could be common ground between feminism and men's rights. But there are a lot of issues - on both sides - that need to be resolved first, so there will be some fighting in the meantime.

Celda · 2012-12-20T06:11:05+00:00

This is why MRAs / this subreddit is anti-feminist:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g2eme/feminists_tell_you_that_the_solution_to_mens/

comehitherhitler · 2012-12-20T08:48:25+00:00

Couple issues here:

You may be under the impression that because the MRM and Feminism are often opposed some area smack-dab in the middle of the two must contain the "right" answer. This is not a necessary truth.
The MRM is not the male version of Feminism. We see Feminism as having outlived much of its usefulness, at best, and a female supremacy movement, at worst.
Feminism != women. Feminists have worked tirelessly to bring the idea of womanhood under the umbrella of their movement. They have done this by telling everyone that the definition of Feminism is female-empowerment or equal rights. There was a point when this was true, but it hasn't been so in decades. The biggest successes of Feminism today revolve around the expansion of female privilege and the reduction of men's rights.
To reiterate, Feminism has not been an equal rights movement in a long time. It has gone from securing equal opportunities for women (good), to mandating equal outcomes regardless of circumstances (misguided, wrong), to finally advocating for absolutely superior treatment for women (full on bigotry). And that's just where the law is concerned. The social and economic ramifications are also grave.

OuiCrudites · 2012-12-20T13:22:26+00:00

We have one thing in common with feminists - we believe that women deserve human rights.

Beyond that:

We believe men deserve human rights and equal rights on a wide variety of social issues where we lack it. Feminism aggressively lobbies against male human rights all over the world.

We believe women are adults, capable of all the responsibilities that men are expected to handle. Feminism infantilizes women, and aggressively lobbies for special privilege to alleviate them from adult responsibility.

We seek a world where everyone is allowed to earn respect and experience success, based on their merits. Feminism has a long history of hating on men, deliberately fostering disrespect for men, and (as said above) infantilizing women.

We are a human rights movement. Feminism is a hateful supremacist movement that actually doesn't even respect women, let alone men.

Boethias · 2012-12-20T05:19:56+00:00

Feminism and the Disposable Male

ZimbaZumba · 2012-12-20T06:00:02+00:00

Your question is answered here, as are many others.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/wiki/faq

Always_Doubtful · 2012-12-20T06:10:23+00:00

KennaCokehead (heh, hilarious name btw)

Theres no common ground between the movement cause of the ideology set forth, its very anti feminism in a majority where i can't speak for everyone here i'll explain for myself only. Why we are anti feminism is the fact that the movement in itself has been trying to destroy rights of men from healthcare, employment, marriage, parenthood for the last 40+ years since its creation. Feminists have openly stated thata any woman live or to be born was automatically oppressed due to men based on the notion of Misogyny and patriarchy which ultimately has never existed till the times of the start of feminism.

Mens Rights are ultimately anti feminist but we do fight the right of women but have the rights of men as a priority, Feminism has been trying to sabotage our movement based on the false tense that it "cares" for mens rights which men are in the ranks of feminism but feminism is a female priority group and majority is NOT in favor of rights of men but has a mission through radicals for female superiority.

Gender equality and a common ground will never occur do to the damage that has happen due to feminism and mens rights have been trying to correct issues that men face with is in Divorce court, family court, sentencing of crimes, health care and various rights such as reproductive rights and in the USA anything that deals with rights of fathers those bills or reforms have always been dealt a automatic death blow due to the actions of pro female group N.O.W but since the event that have occurred in Canada (Warren Farrell at the UofT mens rights have gains huge road)

I openly recommend that you watch videos from Erin Prizzy on topic of feminism based in the UK and her views of the movement in the US and Canada. Common ground as i've said will never happen cause we have no ground thats truly calling things equal.

DerpaNerb · 2012-12-20T14:25:21+00:00

Is there no common ground between the MR Movement and Feminism?

In theory? Sure. Feminism says they are for equal rights, and says they want to eliminate gender roles and says that they are for men's rights too.

The problem with all of this, is when you look at what they have actually accomplished, they have done none of these things (in recent times).

It's okay for a mother to stay at home or go to work, but a guy is still a loser if he stays at home.

We have stuff like VAWA, or Title IX (dear colleague letter), or the AHCA, one sidedness in custody battles, absolutely ridiculous and uneven application of alimony/child support....

And then we have feminists actually opposing (and having an effect on) men's rights. The men's centre at SFU, or the Warren Farrell speech, or any other attempt at making shelters/programs with a focus on men.

So yeah, while feminism has a lot of people that say they do a lot of things, these same people don't actually do anything. Feminism has done nothing to advance men's gender roles or anything like that, they have pushed for only ever more (aka not equal) rights for themselves, and in some cases actually oppose equal treatment for men.

Which brings me to the next quote:

This place seems really, really anti-feminism to me.

Yes it is, as it should be. Feminism has been responsible for every single source of discrimination against males in western society... and even if it's not feminists directly pushing it, it's from using their totally false and misguided statistics and dogmatic theories that are shouted so often and so loudly that people take them as fact. And then after all of this bullshit creates problems for men, they turn around and say "Don't worry bros, we got this because we actually care about men's rights too". This totally deflects the focus from groups who actually want to help these people in need, back on to feminism, thereby preventing help from actually happening, because it's pretty fucking clear that feminism wants absolutely nothing to do with helping men.... If you disagree... you can try and find me a single instance where feminists have done something to help men where it doesn't also help women in equal or more amounts.

If someone who identifies as a feminist says something like "I want to make sure every woman has good access to abortion"... I (and many other people here), will be 100% behind that goal. That does not mean however, that I am behind feminism, as feminism does not have a monopoly on wanting equal rights for women (and all). Continuing to use that term, after you (and assumingly other "good feminists like you) have allowed it to be absolutely hijacked by radical, sexist headcases, does nothing but support these people.

DerpaNerb · 2012-12-20T05:14:01+00:00

You want to know why I have a problem with feminism? Because I haven't met a feminist yet who didn't buy into the very false idea that women, as a whole, in the U.S., were oppressed. You weren't, not all of you at least. Black women were, they were considered less than human under the eyes of the law when the U.S. was founded. White women have never had that problem. And yet most of the prominent feminists are white women. I don't think that's an accident or a coincidence.

I also haven't met a feminist yet who doesn't blame everything on men. Your collective turns us into the enemy, turns the situation into one where it's men versus women, when it doesn't need to be that way. Rape is always male-on-female to you people, domestic violence is the same way. You look at the men in Washington and Wallstreet and scream "Patriarchy!", and very conveniently ignore the much more massive number of homeless dudes. You act like we're all privileged, well I don't see women getting their ass kicked by a bunch of total strangers when they strike a man. I don't see infant girls getting their genitals mutilated.

Women have their hand in a lot of wrong that goes on in the world, and your movement would have everyone sweep that fact right under the rug. The MRM is here to throw that rug into a wood chipper.

C0CKPUNCHER · 2012-12-20T07:30:43+00:00

This thread again. Answers are in the faq.

roadhand · 2012-12-20T10:36:53+00:00

This place seems really, really anti-feminism to me. I understand this is MensRights, but there seems to be a bit of misinformation.

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/153pi2/a_tale_of_two_criminals/

mikesteane · 2012-12-20T11:23:23+00:00

I am against feminism. The radfems are a group of hate filled psychopaths who support the complete eradication of most men.

Moderate feminists ride in their slipstream and it's all about more for me, even though women in the western world are the most privileged group there is.

Demonspawn · 2012-12-20T05:48:39+00:00

Premise one of feminism: Men and women are equal.

Premise two of feminism: Women need assistance from government.

Given W = M, then W + G > M if G > 0

Ergo, feminism is a hate movement seeking superiority over men.

AManAlone · 2012-12-20T05:42:33+00:00

Check the links to the sidebar. ~~This place isn't necessarily anti-feminism.~~ This 'place' is anti-feminism because it needs to be. What specifically doesn't sit right with you?

Roddy0608 · 2012-12-20T11:34:22+00:00

Is there no common ground between the MR Movement and Feminism?

Not if feminism keeps trying to claim ownership of the ideas of fairness and equal rights and believes in the "patriarchy". I care about men's rights and women's rights, not one more than the other.

ExpendableOne · 2012-12-20T15:06:39+00:00

The middle ground between men's rights and women's rights is being a gender egalitarian. The people who understand the problems with feminism or who truly seek gender equality have stopped calling themselves feminists a long time ago. The people who still call themselves feminists either do it out of ignorance, solidarity(gender solidarity no less, which is still a form of sexism) or delusion, or simply because they refuse to let go of an inherently misandric, hateful, misinformed and outdated ideology.

2012-12-20T15:23:17+00:00

A lot of feminists or feminist groups (but NOT the entire movement) advocate against mens rights when they make their shelters women-only and protest any funding being diverted to shelters that are open to men (or all). Feminism is also seen as hypocritical because it claims to be for equality but ignores mens issues (eg homelessness gap, death gap). Finally there are feminists who actively argue against 'mens rights', usually using a straw man that portrays it as the Patriarchal Council of Evil Men (a group dedicated to furthering rape culture and oppressing women).

That is why feminism is seen as 'the enemy'.

An example of common ground is the dislike of traditional gender roles - what feminists call 'patriarchy'. Traditional gender roles basically hold that women should stay safely in the kitchen while men risk life and limb in dangerous 'manly' jobs (like soldier, lumberjack, builder, oil rig worker, trawlerman...) to provide for the family.

Unfortunately feminism seems to think that traditional gender roles were installed by the aforementioned Patriarchal Council of Evil Men, and any way in which they harm men are the result of the patriarchy 'backfiring'. mens rights, on the other hand, can see that traditional gender roles are the natural thing (based on evolutionary psycology), but also that as a society we are now beyond the need for them. so feminism blames men for a universal problem whereas MR just wants to grow up and deal with it.

notoriousjey · 2012-12-20T08:15:39+00:00

I'm probably way too late to reply and may never be read, but I'll just go ahead and give my 2 cents. I personally would prefer that there were no such thing as feminism, nor MRA, I would much prefer only humanism, but unfortunately thats not the case, and never will be. Instead of women pointing out a certain situation and saying "is that fair to women" or men saying "is that fair to men" I would much prefer "is that fair". We all are human after all and it is human nature to find differences and fight over, and though it saddens me I am forced to be a part of MRA to not just right an imbalance of what is and what is not fair for myself, but possibly my future son or daughter. I dont want my son to grow up and feel the same amount of oppression that I have, nor my daughter to hate ANY group of people through lies and hear say. In my studies of BOTH groups, MRA has been the only ones to be able to point out facts that are reliable resources that are able to discredit many claims that current feminism use as the corner stone for many of their campaigns. I am a man of facts, I appreciate sources, and MRA are the only ones so far that has been able to produce that for me. I never take anything for face value, even from friends who spout off some statistic or random fact. I always look for a CREDIBLE source to know its legitimacy.

If it helps any. I have a military back ground (just got out a few months back) and one of the first things that were hammered into our heads was that, "now there are no woman, there are no men, we are all the same. We are all Airmen, and we are all expected to carry our weight for the greater mission" and thats how I've lived ever since hearing that. Thats something that I would like to see in civilian life. Right now, its greatly unbalanced a certain direction. I would like to see that changed. It worked well (for me at least) in military where on one side of me there was a woman filling a sand bag, and on the other side of me another man filling a sand bag, why cant both men and women enjoy equal civil rights? Equal rights to their children? Equal rights to government aid? Equal rights to help? Equal rights to education? Heres a question that you need to ask yourself. What is so absolutely special about you (I'm going to assume your a woman,if not just play along) that you deserve more rights than me? Answer that question with anything other than "because I'm a woman".

rightsbot · 2012-12-20T04:54:18+00:00

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baskandpurr · 2012-12-20T13:56:05+00:00

You're right, MRs generally don't support feminism. However, you will find that most MRs do support womens rights. There lies the essential issue with feminism, if it was about ensuring that women (or both sexes) had a fair deal from society, it would be called womens rights, or sexual equality. Feminism is about getting advantage for women at the expense of men. In that sense MR and feminism pulls in exactly opposite directions.

MR believes that the scales are now tipped completely against men and they want to bring things back to a balance. There are plenty of signs that it is harming society and yet feminism wants to make the imbalance even more of a problem. While feminism continues to pull in one direction, MR has to pull back to prevent men's position becoming even worse.

The majority of MR's would agree that feminism did improve society in the past and that there are still serious problems for women in some parts of the world. Sadly, feminism doesn't seem interested in dealing with those problems.

MRMRising · 2012-12-20T23:06:36+00:00

Listen up to GWW;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSaT9utl4Ys

DJoshquay · 2013-04-10T01:59:24+00:00

I personally have nothing against women's rights. However, I do think that many feminists do too much to gain rights for women as if they are trying to gain more rights for women than there are for men. Feminism used to be the idea that men and women should be treated equal, but I fell like it's moving away from that and it's becoming more of a way to decrease men's rights than it is to gain equal rights. I live with a sister who is a feminist and not to be offensive, but it gets very annoying. She'll come home from school complaining that she thinks that men think that they should get treated better by women since they treat women better. Well, of course they should! but she disagrees. But the way she put it she makes it seem that all men should be treated the same no matter how the men treat women. I think that everybody should take a step back and see what they are actually fighting for. Not men's rights or women's rights, but EQUAL rights.

chillmonkey88 · 2012-12-20T12:33:41+00:00

This sub r/ is really for men who have been wronged by the legal system that if he was a woman... probably would have skated... a prime example and I'm pulling non saved info off the top of my head that moved to subscribe... was a woman who divorced from her husband and attempted to murder him because she was still his beneficiary on his life insurance... anyway when plotting she hooked up with another man who then was going to kill the ex... after shooting him multiple times and leaving he didn't die... he didn't, now the verdict in the case when something along the lines the hit man - life in prison. the ex wife - 30 days in jail 2 years probation and the ex husband... failed to pay his medical bills and after the expensive divorce had a lien put on his house and became homeless... these are the (and the number story one for me) why this sub r/ are popular... injustices that take place in a man's life that other wise wouldn't even be talked about if the roles were reversed... understand women's rights are as important to me as men's... and i fully support any woman who wants to see more equal and balanced rights and rulings among our (as people rather than gender divided) legal system... this is place where we put the shoe on the other foot... thank you for dropping by

DavidByron · 2012-12-20T17:30:25+00:00

Well feminism is an anti-male hate movement so what common ground would you expect there to be?

ThePigman · 2012-12-20T10:28:53+00:00

ConcernedCokeHead, more like.

AnnArchist · 2012-12-20T05:28:20+00:00

read the sidebar please

Bodertz · 2012-12-20T06:07:17+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Thuren · 2012-12-20T09:19:27+00:00

I think the common ground is larger than the separate grounds. If you ignore the extremists on both sides, you'll find that there are some disagreement left, but nothing very serious, nothing that can't work out with some open minded discussions between parties.

The reason why there seems to be quite a lot of hate towards feminism here is that feminism as a group don't see mens problems, because they are typically not men, not exactly surprising! Feminism thus jumps to the conclusion that since men don't have the problems they have, they must be better off. However, men aren't happier than women (at least not in the western world, I'd bet), in fact, they kill themselves a lot more often, so obviously society is favoring women in some ways and men in some ways.

Therefore, we need to be more nuanced than this men vs women bullshit, we need to recognize that there are subgroups within genders who have problems, not genders.

Just_Brad · 2012-12-20T18:31:31+00:00

I'm afraid you'd sooner find a "true Scotsman" living cheerfully under English rule than a "true feminist" advocating for actual equality. The definition of a "true feminist" is hardly up to you, or to me, for that matter.

However, if there is any definition of feminism which should be given more weight, that definition clearly belongs to the scholarly voices and the prominent political voices. Even though your version sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable, you have no credentials nor a bully pulpit.

The "scholarly" voices have long advanced fantasy as fact. I have no idea how easily-debunked myths and purposely misleading data (or even totally fabricated data) continually make it into their treatises, but it is unacceptable. Its not debatable either; we are talking about outright lies, knowingly told by PhDs. Women's Studies (certainly the instuction ground for all flavors of "feminist"), as a field, has EARNED my contempt for failing to detect and censor such things.

The harm is demonstrable. Law-makers have used these apparently scholarly treatises, taking them at face value, and continue to use the illogical premises and the underlying bad/fraudulant data to MAKE POLICY. The result is the unfair family court system, routine denial of public services to males and strong anti-male bias in schools from primary up.

What you need to understand is that your nice version of feminism is the fringe version, not the other way around. Your version sounds lovely and you're probably a lot more egalitarian or even MRA than feminist. However, YOU ENABLE GENDER IDEOLOGUES by taking their label and not speaking out against their lies.

Here's a link to the AVfM article on the subject - its a little harsh, but right on point. I hope this helps!

EDIT to add: Here's a link to the GirlWritesWhat video which has basically the same content as the earlier cited article.

Bobsutan · 2012-12-20T19:09:03+00:00

What are your thoughts on reproductive rights? Here's mine:

http://i.imgur.com/jY6gR.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwRZeBGiYxw

SilencingNarrative · 2012-12-20T23:06:24+00:00

I think there is plenty of room for common ground, but not until the mra partisans have built an army that can counter the feminist partisan one. until they do, the peacemakers from each side wont be able to engage each other in good faith. Fortunately, tremendous progress has been made on this front in the last 2 years and I see it accelerating, so we are well on our way. As an example of the progress the partisans have made, search youtube for feminism, and girlwriteswhat's video, feminism and the diposable male, is in the top five.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-12-20T06:46:55+00:00

Hey everyone, first of all, thanks for taking the time to read this.

O.o

I'd like to start this by saying I am a woman, and I am a feminist.

-_- Oh, joy. Another one.

I've seen a lot of things on this subreddit that don't quite sit right with me.

Tough shit.

This place seems really, really anti-feminism to me. I understand this is MensRights, but there seems to be a bit of misinformation.

There's no misinformation at this end - merely an understanding of the real-world effects of the practical application of feminist advocacy. Check the sidebar for more information.

Is there no common ground between the MR Movement and Feminism?

To yet another (I've lost count) "friendly" feminist visitor, the answer to that is as much no as it was to the first brave debater to try this tactic.

Sindibadass · 2012-12-20T07:58:55+00:00

I think Feminism and MR are two sides to the same coin...its just the flip side to feminism as we need contrast between the two to reach fair and just equality.

getthefuckoutofhere · 2012-12-20T08:10:19+00:00

I'd like to start this by saying I am a woman, and I am a feminist.

WOW NO KIDDIN. that makes you SPECIAL!

I've seen a lot of things on this subreddit that don't quite sit right with me.

here's a tiny violin playing a tiny funeral dirge. to suit your tiny brain and tiny tits

This place seems really, really anti-feminism to me

if by anti-feminism you mean "anti-female supremacy" then yeah it is.

but there seems to be a bit of misinformation.

yeah? examples? you mean like "that thing about 1 in 4 women being raped is a canard". pointing out that urban legends and popular myths are false isn't spreading misinformation.

Is there no common ground between the MR Movement and Feminism

it's possible. the KKK and Black Panthers both believed in segregation, for example.

Title	Hey, I just have a quick question!
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	91
Comments	272
Date	December 20, 2012 4:53 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/155gtd/hey_i_just_have_a_quick_question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/hey-i-just-have-a-quick-question.1006147 https://theredarchive.com/post/1006147

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