I live in a part of California where any domestic violence call will result in the arrest and prosecution of the male party regardless of the facts surrounding the incident. As a result, I am in a domestic violence class to avoid harsh penalties. AMA.

firex726 · 2012-10-30T08:53:57+00:00

First off: Thank you for doing this AMA. The current laws where you live are appaling, and highly problematic for male victims of domestic abuse.

What happened between you and your SO, that made you end up there?

BrSy · 2012-10-30T09:56:04+00:00

Why would any male still live there? That's outrageous and only serves to allow female perpetrators of violence to further victimize their victims.

ninjarxa · 2012-10-30T08:57:19+00:00

Why don't you write a paper on all of the bullshit in the book and try to get the curriculum updated? Include sources and citations that point out all of the inconsistencies, bias, and bad logic. Be proactive so others don't have to suffer through the same stuff.

Broccoli_Tesla · 2012-10-30T09:16:14+00:00

How does it affect your thoughts/methods of going into a relationship? Also, how do they respond to domestic violence calls for female and male homosexual relationships?

blueoak9 · 2012-10-30T16:42:56+00:00

"It used to be a 6 month class, but it was decided by a committee made up of dv profiteers including the owner of the facility I attend that it "wasn't working" so they doubled it. You know, because if something fails you should do it more."

Yes, and charge the state for the extra class time.

There is usually a financial reason behind all these policy changes.

truthjusticeca · 2012-10-30T20:35:47+00:00

FYI about California's dominant aggressor profiling and mandatory arrest policy.

These policies shall discourage, when appropriate, but not prohibit, dual arrests. Peace officers shall make reasonable efforts to identify the dominant aggressor in any incident. The dominant aggressor is the person determined to be the most significant, rather than the first, aggressor. In identifying the dominant aggressor, an officer shall consider the intent of the law to protect victims of domestic violence from continuing abuse, the threats creating fear of physical injury, the history of domestic violence between the persons involved, and whether either person acted in self-defense.

tl;dr Police officers make judgements about who to arrest, usually based on their discriminatory Duluth model training.

Jamungle · 2012-10-30T16:49:38+00:00

Does anybody have any actual documentation that this is an actual policy police departments follow (arrest the man no matter what)? I feel like I'm not getting the whole story.

truthjusticeca · 2012-10-30T20:45:46+00:00

This is an interesting article from Richard L Davis (retired police Lt)

The POPIPV documents that almost two of every three (62%) of law enforcement IPV interventions are for "verbal arguments." And one of every five (20.4%) are for incidents where it is difficult to determine who is the offender and who is the victim. Hence, the vast majority (82.4%) of IPV interventions can be problematic for responding officers.

Most criminal justice data documents that in serious incidents females do suffer from more injurious and fatal violence than males. However, as the POPIPV documents most IPV incidents are minor or there is no empirical evidence to demonstrate who initiated the assaultive behavior. Contemporary unprecedented IPV training curriculums establish a bias found nowhere else in the criminal justice system. IPV trainers simply refer to females as victims and males as offenders

It is difficult to understand how or why the officers did not make a single arrest of a female offender when a recent study from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention documents that women are the perpetrators in more than 70% of nonreciprocal IPV incidents

And the story of David Woods

The anti-male bias of police policies was evident in the Woods case. During the 1995 shotgun incident, Ruth called the police after David wrestled the shotgun away from her. Maegan yelled to her mom, “Tell the truth!” and Ruth told the police she wanted them to come because she wanted to kill her husband.

Nevertheless, when the police arrived and David opened the door to let them in, the officers immediately grabbed him by the wrist, wrestled him to the ground, and handcuffed him. They only uncuffed him after Maegan told them that it was her mother who had the gun.

BinaryMn · 2012-10-31T10:35:37+00:00

Upstate NY here. Had an ex do similar years ago. County sheriff knocking at my door a hour later, threatening to arrest me.

I showed him the text message I received from her that prompted me to yell. He changed sides at that point and told her he'd arrest her if she contacted me again.

Have hope. It's not this bad everywhere.

Theophagist · 2012-10-30T10:28:16+00:00

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Theophagist · 2012-10-30T10:48:28+00:00

I hate to be the one to ask, but since this is an AMA.... Proof?

2012-10-31T00:12:25+00:00

Well sense were all sharing... did not happen to me but it happen to my best bud (let scall him) Jim. I just happen to be his only friend at the time. I Met Jim 5 years ago when I first started working at this company. The first few years he seemed miserable all the time. He seemed paranoid when it came to talking to other women. His physical appearance was of acne ridden 35 year old man he was 25 at the time. One day I get a call from Jim saying that he needed help. His Girlfriend who he had a kid with and was living with had called the police and told them that he had a gun to her head. We later found out she was high on cough medicine or some knockoff brand of drugs. The swat team arrived and found him sitting in the front porch with his son waiting for them to arrive. Because he did not have any guns in the house the intelligent police officers deducted that she was lying. They took her to her mother’s home and his son to. After I got of a 12 hour 3rd shift and not having slept for 24 hours from prior parting I went to his home to make sure he wasn’t thinking anything stupid. I don’t recall what we talked about except that I bought him some pizza and I left for home and got into a car accident which ended costing me $2k. Fast forward a few days and he is back with her because he needs to be with his child. He thinks everything is going to go back to normal. He does not know she’s been getting more and more addicted to the drugs she’s taking. I don’t recall what happened but he ended up in jail and his mom called me to tell me he was in jail. I found out he had a $1500 bail fee and I used my wedding money to get him out. He had only his work uniform and his wallet. He did not have any ware ells to go so I took him home and gave him my old clothing that I did not fit into anymore. I made him a room in the basement and let him stay there rent free. He got suspended from work when somehow they found out he was charged with a crime, as is policy for our shitty contracting company. You can’t work for them if you’re accused of any crimes. He gets a lawyer to start trying to get his kid. Finally some luck. He gets a call saying that he needs to go to the police station of the city and pick up his son. The crazy woman (letscallher) Ana dropped the kid of at the police station saying that she couldn’t deal with him anymore and did not want him. BTW it’s been 4 months when this happened from when I bailed him out. He had to see a state legal person (not sure of tittle) to talk about the problems they were having. because Ana kept lying about being a battered woman tis legal person (letscallher) Linda took her side all these months and make my friend Jim give Ana half of their kids’ stuff so he would have something to play with when at Ana’s' moms home. Also the landlord took his name out of his 1 year lease and changed it to Ana’s because dumb landlord believed Ana story. So for the last few months will was suspended from work, labeled a woman beater by an legal person Linda who was supposed to help him, unable to see his kids, had to miss hunting because he was not allowed to have a gun during this time, living in a basement at a friend’s home, uncertain about his future. I don’t know how he got through it. He says I helped him a lot but I could not go through what he did. So now on month 5 he has his kid. And all charges were being dropped against him. His lawyer is in the process of suing the state. I forgot to mention that he has another kid, the other woman who lives with another man but won’t marry him for benefits reasons is getting child support from him, and Ana left him with a lot of debt from credit cards and unpaid bills.

Epilog, Jim lived in my home for a few more months until my sister came home to visit. Then I had to kick him out. He got his own place he got his bills paid off while living at my home. He dated a lot of women until he found the right one. Jim’s son is now 5ish and has taken a liking to (letscallher) Beth who Jim is engage to now.

Surfing_magic_carpet · 2012-10-31T09:59:57+00:00

Not a question, just a story. I had a roommate call the police on me once time. Didn't spend a night in jail, but story tiem!

My friend and my roommate got into a VERY heated shouting match at roughly 6AM over something I wasn't involved in. Roommate was at the top of the stairs at my apartment, my friend was downstairs, and I was on the stairs between them. Now, I'm not the type to shout, but I am extremely protective, and the situation was getting tense so I start yelling at this rommate girl to get the fuck back in her room. My friend had had enough of the bullshit and was about to walk two miles to her at-the-time boyfriend's place. As she's heading out the door, roommate starts to head down the stairs with that "I want to fight" look, so I grabbed her by the wrists, firmly but not in any way that could have hurt her, and walked her backwards a few feet. A period of roughly 12 hours pass while I take care of stuff and eventually get home. She demands that I talk to her about bullshit that had been piling up since she moved. It was talk or she'd call the cops.

My state laws are probably the same as your's, domestic disputes result in at LEAST a night in jail, if not an arrest. I didn't want some stupid bitch tarnishing my name over something stupid, so I talked. Eventually I tell her I'm going to evict her, she flips he shit, calls 911, tells the dispatcher "My roommate just put his hands on me. He has guns and I'm scared." So I freak out, I don't need this kind of crap, I go outside and wait for the police.

They arrive, I'm outside, arms stretched out, and let them frisk me for weapons. They even had an Lt with a rifle there, so it was serious. I talk to the cops, told them she's been looking to get me kicked out so she could live there, the whole incident happened 12 hours prior, in the DAMN MORNING, and that all I did was deescalate a fight before it happened.

The good news is she couldn't keep a straight story, the incident was listed as defense, and I spent the night at my moms. So, the moral of the story is if you are defending yourself or someone else, make damn sure to state that. Most states have Use of Force laws where you are allowed to use the minimum amount of force necessary to defend yourself or others. Also, don't ever associate with crazies.

LaFridge · 2012-10-30T16:21:26+00:00

I don't really have a question, but I wanted to comment to thank you for bringing to light a very serious issue with California's (and perhaps many other states', I wouldn't know) domestic violence policies.

"A part of California."

You mean EVERY part of California, right?

It's particularly common amongst firearms collectors here. Wife knows that TRO will require surrender of all guns w/i 24 hours. So, she files a fales police report, gets a TRO, and the collector or shooting sports enthusiast loses their entire life.

pcarvious · 2012-10-30T22:16:44+00:00

Is this the result of the written laws in your area or a result of public policy and interpretation of the laws?

Theophagist · 2012-10-30T12:48:55+00:00

Have you considered appealing to human rights groups?

matt_512 · 2012-10-30T20:55:49+00:00

What exactly do they teach?
What is an example of the typical class?
Is it a generalized program, or one specifically for abusers?
Did you plea-bargain this, or were you found guilty?

2012-10-30T22:24:02+00:00

Wow, thats some bs... what part of california are you in? northern, central or southern? i live in the cv and i've never heard of this...

NoNamesAreWorkin · 2012-10-30T23:36:09+00:00

Why can laws like this even exist... I mean I know people can be stupid, bigoted etc. But REALLY?!

actanonverba8 · 2012-10-31T03:45:01+00:00

Feminists got this anti-male, female supremacist law put in place. There's no excuse for it, it's barbarism.

SDcowboy82 · 2012-10-31T11:02:59+00:00

Where in CA are you?

r_rships_account · 2012-10-30T11:11:49+00:00

Do you avoid altogether any finding of guilt?

Theophagist · 2012-10-30T15:54:08+00:00

Do you point out inconsistencies during class? I don't think I'd be able to help myself if I were you. Though it would also be easier for me to get away with it of course, because I'm female and the people in charge of all this shit appear to be complete motherfuckers.

LaFridge · 2012-10-30T12:04:34+00:00

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truthjusticeca · 2012-10-30T13:04:35+00:00

Can you please explain what you were facing if you didn't take the plea bargain?

Theophagist · 2012-10-30T14:15:40+00:00

California seems like a crazy state. It used to have that 3 strike law.

Nesman64 · 2012-10-30T15:03:30+00:00

Do you pay for the classes, or does the State pick up the tab? Either way, can you give us a ballpark on the cost of the class?

If this is posted and I missed it, I apologize.

JELLY__FISTER · 2012-10-30T17:56:29+00:00

Can I have a link saying this is the law there? I can't find one myself and my friend doesn't believe that's the law.

KINGCOCO · 2012-10-30T19:33:50+00:00

That arrest policy must be unconstitutional. Surprised no one has challenged it. Or maybe they have?

Willravel · 2012-10-31T03:16:53+00:00

What do you think about the practice of verification as a part of the AMA subreddit? Do you think that should happen here, too? I ask this because /r/mensrights has been targeted in the past by people who stretched the truth. It's happened often enough that it could be a problem. This is not an accusation, please understand, but rather my concern for the truth.

DougDante · 2012-10-31T06:12:22+00:00

"The 2005 reauthorization of VAWA added a provision noting, “Nothing in this title shall be construed to prohibit male victims of domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault, and stalking from receiving benefits and services under this title.” (VAWA Section 40002(b)(8). http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ162.109.pdf)"

source: SAVE

The US Department of Justice says:

"Q: Does the Violence Against Women Act currently serve men? A: Yes. VAWA funds continue to be available for services provided to victims regardless of gender, and male victims frequently receive help from VAWA-funded programs. For example, men who contact domestic violence and sexual assault programs and hotlines are provided advocacy services and legal assistance to protect their safety. VAWA programs also train law enforcement officers on how to respond to and assess situations of domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault and stalking, which enhances their capacity to properly identify victims and their perpetrators."

So, in your personal experience, what do you feel the value of this section of federal law is?

How do you feel the US Department of Justice is doing in its commitment to serve male domestic violence victims and to properly identify victims and perpetrators?

Pecanpig · 2012-10-30T10:24:27+00:00

And to think, it's the laws in Saudi Arabia prohibiting a woman from driving that get attacked and labeled as "unjust".

THE IRONY! IT BURNS!

rightsbot · 2012-10-30T08:24:18+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

MR_Recursive_Ion · 2012-10-30T14:10:01+00:00

Gather information from your classmates for a Class Action Lawsuit.

2012-10-30T15:07:42+00:00

That's disgusting. What advocacy has there been in California for y'all?

Theophagist · 2012-10-30T15:42:26+00:00

Not that I would advocate violating copywrite... but I wonder if that book is online in PDF format so that everybody can see the manual they are working from.

TruBlue · 2012-10-30T22:17:39+00:00

My advise - Go live somewhere else!

koeselitzz · 2012-10-30T17:52:24+00:00

So, to recap:

Your partner was verbally abusive to you. You had an argument, and you "snapped on her with a verbal onslaught that would scare and belittle anyone." She called the cops, and you were immediately arrested. In court, they offered not to charge you or give you jail time or a criminal record, and in exchange you have to take a class on domestic violence.

As a guy who's been in similar circumstances, let me say: it seems like the system is working here. You shouted at somebody in a way that was sure to scare them - that's verbal abuse, and it's something you'll need to work out. The way you describe it, it sounds like what led up to this outburst was a long time of verbal abuse from her, and her abusiveness is something she's going to have to deal with; but it's wrong to shout at someone and scare and belittle them, even if that someone is a psycho BPD verbal abuser herself.

I said above that I've been in similar circumstances; in fact, I was in a marriage for years that was horribly abusive. She belittled me and tore me down constantly. Eventually, I started to reciprocate. The whole thing got worse and worse until she left. Thank god it ended, though, because it was causing me a massive amount of unhappiness.

As far as I can tell, the lesson here is pretty basic, although that doesn't make it easy. When someone is habitually verbally abusive toward you, walk away and don't stop walking. It's easy to get drawn in; verbal abuse is kind of a whirlpool, and the temptation is always to go with the flow and join in the abusiveness. Don't. Walk away. Because no matter what happens, you're responsible for what you do. So it's really incredibly important not to let someone else take your self-control away from you.

I've said before here that I'm a feminist, and I don't really think of myself as an MRA at all, but that doesn't stop me from seeing that men aren't told this often enough. For a lot of reasons (mostly acculturation - abusiveness is a contagion we get from others) women tend to have more subtle ways of being abusive than men. So it's easy not to notice these tiny things that are said which are actually poisonous barbs of abuse. My ex-wife used to do this constantly; the last time I saw her, for example, the first thing she did was notice I was wearing an old t-shirt of mine and remark: "looks like that shirt's getting a little small for you." I didn't even respond to that derisive implication about my weight, because I didn't think of it as abuse in the moment, but it ate me up inside for weeks. Those little remarks pile up, and you often don't even realize you're in an abusive relationship.

I know it sucks having to take a class, but all in all I think it's much better than other possibilities (jail time, a criminal record, etc) and moreover it can only help you if you can learn a little more about how domestic violence and verbal abuse work. Again, the key is to learn to recognize the signs of verbal abuse and train yourself to walk away. That can be tough, I know, but it's absolutely necessary. If you hang around with a person who's abusive, sooner or later you'll end up being abusive, too.

TL;DR: Don't put up with verbal abuse; learn to recognize it, and walk away from it immediately, because otherwise you might get pushed into doing something abusive yourself.

atlas720 · 2012-10-30T14:20:16+00:00

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killyourego · 2012-10-30T14:04:16+00:00

don't believe you

real-dreamer · 2012-10-30T23:36:19+00:00

So, you're not learning to not abuse? That's fucked up.... I think it's kind of important to not abuse people, and the fact that you're not learning me makes me wonder if you shouldn't be in jail and paying a large fine...

Cause, you don't seem to have the most empathy.

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