Is holding the opinion “men and women are abused at similar rates” a red flag in a guy. Why?

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2022-09-24T16:21:07+00:00

thinking crime statistics are a matter of personal opinion is a red flag.

lastfreshstart4me · 2022-09-24T19:57:16+00:00

The problem with this video and these type of breakdowns is that the behaviors described throughout are just vague enough to be able to apply to anyone you want them to. So if, for example, you're a woman watching this video (or reading the book that it's based off of) who has recently had a bad breakup with her ex, you can easily find an "abuser" type within it that fits him.

Which is exactly how you sell books.

What's funny is I can use the same abuser types to describe my exs (all women). Because these profiles are so vague that every person on earth could fit into at least one of them if you cherrypicked the right moments from their life.

Here's an interesting breakdown of the author Lundy Bancroft: "Lundy Bancroft: An Anti-Vaxxer Who Thinks All Men Are Abusers"

(The acsh isn't the best organization but the article still stands.)

According to OP's video, Bancroft claims to have "decades of experience with abusive men"... although by his definition, he could have just said men.

I definitely think there are a lot of emotionally abusive men out there. But I would avoid these type of charlatans who are trying to claim that nearly everyone (or every man specifically) is an abuser.

jcdbionicman273 · 2022-09-24T20:17:33+00:00

Holding the opinion that

holding the opinion “men and women are abused at similar rates” a red flag in a guy

Is a red flag in a woman

FrostieTheSnowman · 2022-09-24T18:07:52+00:00

Men who say that women and men are abused at similar rates are familiar with statistics. That says nothing about them as a person, or how they treat their partner. Anyone who says otherwise is projecting hard.

Final_Philosopher663 · 2022-09-24T16:16:32+00:00

This is what they refer to when they say that. I have seen another study too saying that there are more types of IPV and because they are not stated in this study that is why the findings are "similar rates". Something in the lines of Casual Partner Violence is similar but not other kinds of violence. I haven't saved it (unluckily) but I'm pretty sure someone will post it.

63daddy · 2022-09-24T16:29:42+00:00

There’s a lot of inaccurate, agenda driven information out there regarding domestic violence and spousal abuse. Challenging inaccurate information or wanting equal rights for men doesn’t make a man an abuser.

It’s funny she says a man not contributing equally constitutes abuse. I’ve been in relationships where the woman didn’t contribute equally, but I certainly wouldn’t consider it abuse on her part.

Robotemist · 2022-09-25T04:11:55+00:00

There is a reason lesbian relationships have the highest domestic violence rates by a large margin.

PlatypusPolka · 2022-09-24T17:18:03+00:00

No, there is evidence backing up that men and women are abused at similar rates. There are also not as many safety nets for abused men that there are for abused women. Holding the view that because men are abused at similar rates to women that women who did nothing to you deserve to be abused, that would be a red flag.

_Duriel_1000_ · 2022-09-24T17:20:02+00:00

Many women believe they can't mistreat men, let alone abuse them.

LotBuilder · 2022-09-24T21:08:17+00:00

The most abusive relationships statistically are lesbians beating on each other.

cast-away-ramadi06 · 2022-09-24T16:44:50+00:00

You'd have to either be naive or willfully ignorant to either think that woman don't abuse at roughly the same rate or that men aren't more likely to cause more physical harm when the do abuse.

gate18 · 2022-09-24T16:44:49+00:00

If you are referring to the "The victim" section. Yes, I agree with it. The video says

Pay attention to how he talks about abused women. A genuine male victim tends to feel sympathy for abused women and support their cause. The victim on the other hand often says that women exaggerate or fabricate their claims of abuse or insist that men are abused just as much as women are.

That's spot on.

We can see it in every walk of life. If you are rich and insulated from hardships, you see a beggar on the street and think how lazy that beggar is, all he needs to do is have drive and motivation, after all, it's so easy to make money.

If you've been homeless but now you have your shit together but still look down at the homeless, there's something wrong with you. The rich prick is a prick but in a way, you can understand.

When King Charles was heckled and asked "how are the Britst (his subjects) are going to heat their homes this winter) he, the king, dismissed the question. He can't possibly comprehend the struggle. Yet there are people that have struggled and still think those struggling are lazy...

Similarly here, a male victim (or female victim) that is incapable to relate with other victims but uses the same rhetoric other people use when talking about him, of course, is a red flag.

Between the two (whilst I would run away from both) I understand the prick that never experienced abuse and doesn't believe victims, but if someone that has been a victim of abuse still believes other victims exaggerate, between the two, I would be more against the victim that doesn't believe in other victims.

qwertyified · 2022-09-24T16:40:52+00:00

If the stats are true (I don't know anything about this particular topic so don't ask me) then why wouldn't the girl agree? Surely that would be a green flag if anything

SoIlikeMangos · 2022-09-24T19:48:47+00:00

I think women are more abusive verbally.

liefelijk · 2022-09-24T17:36:16+00:00

While the book is called “Why does he do that?”, the scenarios they describe can also apply to women who utilize the same abusive techniques. In fact, this chapter outlines many of the frustrations men in this sub have with toxic women. For example:

Victims also seem to twist reality on its head by blaming the Target for the problems in the relationship, making statements such as: “You have a distorted sense of reality.” “You just don’t understand me.” “You’re abusive (narcissistic).” “This relationship is destroying me!” (Implying that you, somehow, are the culprit in the destruction.)

The truth about the Victim is that he/she cannot be in a healthy interpersonal relationship and use the manipulation or “tool” of abuse to prevent the possibility of any true and meaningful connection. In essence, the Victim sabotages his/her own happiness and blames you for it.

And if you are like most Targets, you will turn yourself into a pretzel to try and convince your loved one that you can improve, care better, be more available, etc. You even ask the Victim how you can be a better partner. The Victim may not even respond to your requests to explain him/herself more clearly, preferring to imply that you’re fatally flawed and incapable of “getting it together” enough to meet his/her needs.

This is VERY frustrating for the Target, who cannot understand why the Victim is so miserable and is deeply perplexed over how to solve this problem. The Target, believing the rhetoric, becomes overly responsible for fixing the relationship. The irony is that the problem only exists because the Victim created it in the first place; and there really is no solution! At least as far as the Target is concerned.

The abuser may say the following things: Everyone has done me wrong; particularly my previous partner(s.) Poor me. If you start accusing me of being abusive you are just proving that you are just as cruel and unfair to me as the “rest” of them. It is justifiable for me to do whatever I feel you are doing to me, and even to make it quite a bit worse in order to make sure you get the message. I’ve had it so hard I’m not responsible for my actions.

HTML_Novice · 2022-09-24T17:25:43+00:00

I’ve been mistreated by women I’ve dated, many many women. I’ve had stuff thrown at me because they were upset, insulted, belittled, manipulated. Although it doesn’t really bother me that much, I think women just complain about this stuff way more to be honest. I’ve dated them, they were shitty and I don’t date then anymore that’s kinda it I don’t have to make a twox post about it

tms79 · 2022-09-24T18:28:43+00:00

We have to many people brainwashed by the propaganda of a certain movement, that is currently in the 4. wave. This movement loves to show extreme cases on male domestic abuse in combination with cherry picking data to strengthen their narrative. This gets stated by psychology professor Donald Dutton, who has excellent talks about this topic on YT. He has 45 years of experience in the field of DV. I advise to watch his 10 minute talk (black/white video) on YT.

There is also a meta study from 2014, that contains 270 empirical studies and 73 reviews from the last 3 decades. The massive data shows, that females in relationships are equally physical aggressive (or more) as males are.

Abstract of the meta study:

This annotated bibliography describes 343 scholarly investigations (270empirical studies and 73 reviews) demonstrating that women are as physically aggressive as men (or more) in their relationships with theirspouses or opposite-sex partners. The aggregate sample size in thereviewed studies exceeds 440,850 people.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-013-9194-1

Dont trust a certain movement, trust science.

SmilesLikeMardiGras · 2022-09-25T03:46:15+00:00

its a sign hes the kind of stupid im not attracted to lol not the good kind

2022-09-25T16:47:58+00:00

Obviously men and women are abused at least equally. Imo id say men probably even more now cuz they aren't a protected class. And also for the fact that it seems male homosexual predators arent as extremely vilified as straight male predators.

And guys who get abused don't even wanna speak up cuz people will call them "gay".

All abuse of any kind is bad and must be discussed

darkvalleys · 2022-09-24T16:16:34+00:00

Anyone who ignores reality and my personal experience is not someone I want to be around, let alone intimate with

Dark_Knight2000 · 2022-09-24T16:18:57+00:00

I'm just here wondering how stuff like this comes up in casual conversation. Is this a normal courtship topic now?

_revelationary · 2022-09-24T16:18:51+00:00

Yeah, I’d say it’s a red flag, but it’s also a red flag to assume that men aren’t abused or sexually assaulted.

Away_Adeptness_9950 · 2022-09-24T18:58:37+00:00

At this point, most up-to-date data shows that men and women are abused a similar rates. The only difference i can really think of are the outcomes of the abuse, like i think women are more likely to die or end up seriously injured. Obviously this makes male-on-female abuse worse in a sense but not so much that discussions surrounding abuse need to be as one-sided as they are. Im abusive simply for thinking that men and women are abused at similar rates? If you answer yes then just tell me how to interpret the studies people posted in these comments.

bunnakay · 2022-09-24T16:25:09+00:00

Depends on the data.

belachewhm · 2022-09-24T17:30:33+00:00

It depends what you constitute as abuse.

You could argue then mens bodies are abused in a way that women’s bodies are not, for the betterment and advancement of society (war, dangerous jobs, providing physical protection for partner and family, etc). The result of this is that men have a much lower life expectancy than women.

ClaraBow01 · 2022-09-24T16:52:21+00:00

Not if it’s done from good intentions and doesn’t come with other RedPill talking points. The statistic is true in some ways, but it’s often used without context.

Rhubarb_Fair · 2022-09-24T19:31:28+00:00

I haven't watched the video.. But... What glares as a flag to me is any man who, when someone mentions abuse against women, responds "but men get abused too". Its literally a victim mind set. He's trying to turn it into some sort of sick competition to minimise what abuse women do suffer from. And, yes, in that casr, it shows a worrying, immature and possible red flag behaviour

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m0rbidowl · 2022-09-24T16:46:17+00:00

Yep, that gives "men's rights" vibes. Men's rights beliefs are cope. Statistically speaking, men and women are not even close to being abused at the same rates (it's incredibly more common for women to be abused).

kokorwqac · 2022-09-24T16:11:34+00:00

DerekMorganBAUxx · 2022-09-24T16:12:45+00:00

How is this a BP question?

womandatory · 2022-09-25T01:20:03+00:00

Yes, it’s a red flag. The issue is not so much rates of abuse, it’s the other factors that come into play.

Men are socialized to not believe they can be abused by women, so often don’t even recognise it as abuse, or if they do, are too embarrassed to seek help. If their wife or girlfriend actually hits them or throws stuff at them, they are probably more likely to just leave and not tolerate it. If they tell a friend, they will be more likely to leave. When men leave abusive relationships with women, they tend to face social embarrassment and discrimination, but not the kinds of structural difficulties women do.

Women are socialized to accept that they are physically weaker than men, that compliance and agreeability are attractive traits in a woman and are therefore more likely to stay and tolerate abuse long-term. They seek to placate their abuser, keep the peace in the home (especially if there are children involved or if she relies on him for income/resources), and women are more likely to forgive and stay in the relationship due to structural inequality that makes leaving difficult or dangerous (women are most at risk of being killed by their partner when they leave).

Women on average earn less than men. If they’re in a marriage and there are children, they might not have their own income, or will be working part time. They will have less retirement funds and fewer if any savings. All these things mean securing alternative housing and an ongoing income are much harder for women.

There is also structural inequality for men too, of course, like stigma and social expectations, not being believed, fewer refuges for men etc, but largely those inequalities are offset by the structural inequalities that women already face. Male victims of abuse tend to recover to a similar standard of living financially and socially much faster than female victims of abuse because they tend to leave sooner, the abuse is less severe, and there’s is less disruption to their income and life overall. Women are more likely to remain stuck in cycles of abuse and end up in another abusive relationship because they are targeted for their vulnerability and victimhood by abusers.

Then there’s the type of abuse. Men commit 95% of violent crimes in western countries. Men are physically stronger and more capable of doing more harm with a slap or a punch to a woman than a woman is to a man. In most countries, women are murdered by their current or former partners at a terrifying rate. When women kill their partner, it is most often after years and years of abuse from the man. I watched an awful documentary on indigenous women currently incarcerated for murdering their husbands and the things those women put up with for decades (rapes, beatings, threats to rape their daughters and nieces, being prostituted, tortured, utterly horrifying stuff) would be enough to tip most people over the edge.

Of course there are outliers in everything and women are quite capable of doing harm, just less so than men, probably due to a mixture of biology (testosterone) and socialization. There’s also different kinds of abuse - physical, sexual, financial, emotional, etc. I’ve seen men and women perpetrate all kinds of abuse on each other in the course of my work, but on the whole, more men are abusers than women, and men perpetrate more harmful abuse with longer-lasting or permanent consequences than women.

So all in all, I think it’s not as simple as ‘abused at similar rates’. The type and severity of abuse matters, the length of time it’s been perpetrated matters, and the structural inequality faced by male and female victims and what society does to offset or address those inequalities also matters.

medlabunicorn · 2022-09-25T06:08:36+00:00

Idk if it's a red flag but it's definitely retarded. The average man has 50+ lbs on the average woman, and far more lean muscle mass. The physical gap between men and women is a canyon wide, women's pro sports often can't keep up with men's college or even high school level athletics. Pound for pound the average man can kill the average woman with his bare hands.

Following this logic it's fucking ridiculous to even insinuate that domestic abuse is occurring at comparable rates, it's not. Women are far more vulnerable.

AdmiralWoke · 2022-09-24T16:17:05+00:00

Only men can be abusers

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2022-09-25T03:22:55+00:00

Facts are facts honey. I don't care what a man's opinion on it is. I've never met a man or been with one that discusses abuse stats in any interested way anyway.

risdeveau · 2022-09-24T18:46:52+00:00

A man who ignores how we live our lives is of no interest to me. Every man I dated had no problem acknowledging it

Stunning-Potato-1984 · 2022-09-24T19:35:21+00:00

So I always think about emotional and verbal abuse. There is no reporting mechanism for this, it's not a crime, it is still abuse however. I don't know that there will be good reliable statistical data for this because of the issue of not being able to tell the difference between conflict and abuse many people have and that many people don't recognize emotional and verbal abuse when it occurs, usually die to the history as child abuse victims so such behavior is normalized.

Just-Pie-5579 · 2022-09-25T01:58:34+00:00

Having an opinion on abuse is a red flag. Let me explain. Abuse is something normal people agree should not happen, and this is where this conversation needs to start and stop. If a person says anything along the lines of "X abuse Y all the time" - they are a walking alarm bell, a man or a woman. A healthy individual should be too busy bettering his life and fixing his own shit to develop any sort of elaborate perspective regarding abuse. If you developed a whole conception of who does what to who all you are telling me is you are not getting enough hours at your job. Complaints and finger pointing make my \/ dry and are a waste of everybody's time

hairlossthrow4w4y · 2022-09-25T13:58:20+00:00

No, it's not the opinion itself that's a red flag it's when you bring it up unprovoked because it means you're either projecting or bitter. You're not neccessarily wrong, you're just being cringe and unstable when bringing it up unprovoked which is why it's a turn off and red flag.

Think of it this way, if you were on a date and brought up Hillary Clinton and the girl goes "WOMEN ARE STRONG AND INDEPENDENT AND ARE ABLE TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT." Yeah sure, she isn't wrong she's just being a cringelord.

Additional_Speech164 · 2022-10-22T20:36:07+00:00

Pretty tone deaf so yeah.

Title	Is holding the opinion “men and women are abused at similar rates” a red flag in a guy. Why?
Author	Dark_Knight2000
Upvotes	28
Comments	202
Date	September 24, 2022 4:09 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/xmwsn8/is_holding_the_opinion_men_and_women_are_abused/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-holding-the-opinion-men-and-women-are-abused-at.1131858 https://theredarchive.com/post/1131858

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