The idea that female oppression is worse than males' is irrelevant to admitting the existence of male oppression

YetAnotherCommenter · 2013-07-08T05:21:51+00:00

I was simply arguing that male oppression exists in western society. These women were extremely offended by this remark accusing me of comparing unfair male financial burdens to the stoning of women in the middle east.

In other words, their rebuttal is completely irrelevant to your point. You talk about Western society, they talk about the stoning of women in the Middle East?

I tried to explain that discussing male oppression is not contingent on a comparison to female oppression.

Exactly. But remember that perceived victimhood is a valuable resource because it can be used to buy sympathy. As Hume and Smith pointed out, sympathy has to be economized/prioitized, and as such we have the phenomenon of the Oppression Olympics. The more you suffer, or are perceived as sufferring, the larger your slice of the Sympathy Pie.

Which is why the female friends you were talking with were so desperate to maintain a monopoly on victimhood.

4man · 2013-07-08T05:17:21+00:00

I had a recent conversation with two women friends, which ended with me being labeled a sexist.

This is just a way of silencing you. I make a point in my debates of framing the location. It is even crucial not to generalise concerning the Anglo-west as each jurisdiction has slightly different laws.

These women were extremely offended by this remark accusing me of comparing unfair male financial burdens to the stoning of women in the middle east.

If the theatre of debate is the middle east then the stoning of women should be compared to the stoning of men, the amputation of hands of men and the execution by beheading of men.

You are right though, just because women are oppressed as well does not take away from the evidence that men are oppressed in different circumstances.

Stratisphear · 2013-07-08T07:44:33+00:00

Can we stop calling it "oppression"? It's a disadvantage and discrimination, but I really don't think anyone's being "oppressed". At least not in the western world.

Arlieth · 2013-07-08T06:10:28+00:00

Sounds like Oppression Olympics were just held.

MikeFromBC · 2013-07-08T12:03:38+00:00

Personally, I think female oppression is way worse.

Are you talking about western society here? Because if you are you're wrong.

giegerwasright · 2013-07-08T07:38:46+00:00

male oppression exists in western society

stoning of women in the middle east.

See that. Right there? The middle east isn't western society. So. They're conflating two entirely different social paradigms.

Those of us in the US, UK and Canada... yeah, we have no say about what goes on in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, or Dubai. Those societies are quite closed to any influence we may have. We're discussing western society. In western society, women do not have it "way worse" then men. The way your post is worded suggests that you are on a mining expedition.

2013-07-08T05:14:08+00:00

Whenever I hear "group A has suffers from problem X more" I think its odd, because its usually advocating for someone's problem to be ignored because they are in the minority. Funny, I thought we weren't all about do discrimating against minorities.

JohnPeel · 2013-07-08T10:12:53+00:00

Women's oppression in the west relative to men has been a non-issue as far back as my historical knowledge goes (around 1000 years).

However, people like to pick and choose. For example they label any disadvantages women receive as "oppression" and advantages as "benevolent sexism".

This is what happens when you analyse past events using modern context. This is a very bad thing to do when attempting to understand why things are as they are.

So the question is, what is the real answer to all this? Well, men and women have fundamental biological differences such as women being the only sex able to bear children. To this end, society developed roles and assigned them to each simply because of survival. The fact that male stamina and strength will on average be close to 40% higher than a woman is not insignificant when it comes to performing tasks.

The problem with patriarchy theory is that it assumes a conspiracy, which is completely silly when there are far simpler explanations with historical and scientific evidence to be found.

N64Overclocked · 2013-07-08T14:49:01+00:00

I was actually talking to my sister about this yesterday. She basically said that because "women are still more oppressed in society," we shouldn't be looking at men's rights issues at all. She compared it to dealing with a scrape v. dealing with someone's broken leg. Both need addressed but you're gonna help the person with the broken leg first.

While I saw her point, this felt wrong to me. Can anyone please provide some reasons why this kind of thinking is wrong?

MaestroLogical · 2013-07-08T05:22:08+00:00

GWW has a good vid up now called When female privilege fails (I think) and it outlines some of this bias and even highlights how the treatment of women in the middle east is actually a recent decline. Worth watching.

drunkenJedi4 · 2013-07-08T14:06:13+00:00

It is clearly your friends who are sexist. If they want to bring up stoning, you can bring up war. Let's see who comes up worse.

The entire idea of violence against women being a special problem is rooted in deep-seated sexism that simply doesn't regard male suffering as being on the same level as female suffering. Violence against men is clearly more prevalent, yet most people just ignore it.

Jdp206 · 2013-07-08T17:18:11+00:00

The American female... That's your first problem. Expecting to have a rational, mature, forward thinking conversation full of reason and logic. And then there is reddit commentary... Most coming from people in which have never been married/divorced, had a female boss, or had to deal with "confusion and evil" out of any American female but your mother/sister/grandmother. If you think I'm off, ask your significant other which movie to see or what to eat and where to eat it. Watch the decision making process go down in front of you when it is something as superficial as food/entertainment... Or you've never lived with one and your points are moot. Good luck, it's a jungle out there.

Demonspawn · 2013-07-08T08:27:37+00:00

The reason is simple:

Once you are "allowed" to see male oppression, you instantly see that women have been a protected class now and throughout history. Once you recognize that men's rights have been earned through lives on the battlefield while women's have been given to them by men.... women's "oppression" seems downright tame in comparison.

8745quantus · 2013-07-08T14:01:55+00:00

I think a lot of what we call "female oppression" is actually female privilege; take, for example, the idea of benevolent sexism - if women were expected to open doors and buy shit for men, you bet your ass it would be called male privilege.

Ahmahgah, there was a story about a woman getting stoned, oppression!

Ahmahgah, there wasn't a story about the 3,000,000 male slaves in Dubai, privilege!

The fact that we report on female suffering more often, regardless of actual frequency, is de facto evidence of female privilege; after all, do you think that American headlines from 200 years ago were full of black suffering?

Asocialism · 2013-07-08T14:52:40+00:00

Oppression pissing contest. Sounds like a great way to tackle an issue.

HappyGerbil88 · 2013-07-08T15:39:29+00:00

Most Feminists reject the idea that men can be oppressed. To them, any disadvantage men face is merely a side effect of male privilege and female oppression, and women are the real victims.

SilencingNarrative · 2013-07-08T21:58:48+00:00

Personally, I think female oppression is way worse.

Did you just say that as part of a negotiation with women that you have internalized ("if I believe that they are more oppressed, perhaps they will start to care about some of the men's issues I care about, like unfair financial burdens"), or do you actually believe that statement?

Perhaps your friends can sense the fact that you are trying to negotiate from weakness and are having none of it. Why should they grant you anything if you can't back up your claims, or shoot down theirs?

Getting back to this statement of yours:

I think female oppression is way worse.

I don't think it is possible to say which gender has it worse overall.

I would be curious how you think you know that women have it way worse than men overall.

roninski · 2013-07-08T10:58:00+00:00

What they're doing is using a strawman argument known as an "appeal to worse problems", and it's usually used to trivialise legitimate problems due to the existence of stronger or more important ones. An equivalent statement on your side would be going up to them and saying "Oppression of females doesn't exist/is irrelevant because there are starving children in Africa" The fact that larger problems exist does NOT mean the less important problems are not still problems which need to be dealt with.

Edit: Grammar

slinkyman98 · 2013-07-08T14:00:18+00:00

Don't worry about it calling you sexist for bringing up me is a silencing tactic. I was arguing on reddit a couple days back. The feminist dropped this gem "She had to walk on bright streets in better parts of town. He could walk anywhere he wanted. Power and privelige." An exact quote. How is it power and privelige that he is confident in his ability to protect himself and she is not. They will say anything to push an agenda.

NotaPoet · 2013-07-08T14:33:39+00:00

By their sheer inability to accept your very reasonable idea confirms that male oppression likely is worse.

Annoying at best.

Super_delicious · 2013-07-08T16:40:20+00:00

I got told I should give up caring about those who are falsely accused of rape, because rape victims are more important. I told them I will when my abusive mother can no longer pull and accusation out of her ass and get custody over my father.

TheRealElvinBishop · 2013-07-08T17:43:31+00:00

In what ways are female oppression worse?

samspot · 2013-07-08T17:48:32+00:00

I'm finding that many people's thoughts about any subject are extremely one dimensional, and that includes some commenters in this sub. IMO the proof is in the downvotes to this topic. That you even acknowledged female oppression means you are not a true believer in mens rights to some people.

BrambleEdge · 2013-07-08T20:04:30+00:00

I don't understand, do they believe that only women are stoned to death in the Middle East? Do they believe men are exempt from such punishments? Do you believe this?

Bohica69 · 2013-07-08T13:06:11+00:00

Get a better, and more intelligent, class of friends.

2013-07-08T13:05:53+00:00

Women are not oppressed in Western Society. They pretend that they are because it makes them feel important.

Hypersapien · 2013-07-08T12:13:31+00:00

It exists, and it's important enough to be addressed. No comparison with female oppression is necessary.

Tastysalad101 · 2013-07-08T10:29:59+00:00

I'm part of the MRA and feminist group and i think in the western society men have it worse than women.

shiftyswar · 2013-07-08T16:09:47+00:00

I run into this logic all the time with my SO. Lets say she broke her wrist and I stubbed my toe. since hers is more "serious" mine doesn't deserve any sympathy or count for shit. this is just an analogy of course.

2013-07-08T17:20:13+00:00

Oh please. Male oppression exists. Men are sometimes victims of discrimination and sexism. Men commit suicide at a higher rate across all demographics than women. More men than women are homeless. Etc etc etc. They're being disingenuous by only mentioning financial issues, as if that's the only problem men face, and then comparing it to the lot that women face in the Middle East - it's extra stupid when you consider the fact that western women don't face the sort of oppression that women in the Middle East face either.

They're being sexist. And they're being pretty immature if they want to turn this into an "oppression olympics" and then fight for the gold medal by bringing up oppression that isn't theirs in the first place. Please please please do not date either of these women...if that's how they feel about men it won't be fun for you.

2013-07-08T17:29:51+00:00

I agree. It's not a zero-sum game! Just because one group is oppressed doesn't mean the other isn't or can't be oppressed as well.

MRMRising · 2013-07-08T19:06:06+00:00

to the stoning of women in the middle east.

Did you tell them that life for men in the middle East is not a bed of roses? Men get executed for bullshit reasons over there as well.

wiscondinavian · 2013-07-08T19:23:54+00:00

Were you originally talking about female oppression? Or opression in general?

SabatoPsy · 2013-07-08T23:10:07+00:00

What, precisely, do you mean by 'oppression'?

NiceIce · 2013-07-08T08:23:36+00:00

Personally, I think female oppression is way worse.

Well, there's your problem right there.

rightsbot · 2013-07-08T05:08:17+00:00

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willmaster123 · 2013-07-08T08:07:50+00:00

This is the #1 argument I get with anyone on /r/MensRights ,

I truly do believe that women, around the world, are persecuted and oppressed on a massive scale, and that men in the third world actually do have a lot more freedom than women. I also think that even in the first world, domestic violence against women is a bigger issue than domestic violence against men, especially rape.

However, even while I do believe this, I am subscribed to this subreddit because I do believe that men face problems that women do not face, the same way that women face problems that men do not face.

Divorce, crime, military service, the fact that men are expected to do physical work, and that gay people are often more persecuted than lesbians are all things that men have to face and issues that /r/MensRights should be addressing. However, instead we try to downplay the issues of women and try to even the playing field, when in reality it makes this subreddit look foolish.

2013-07-08T13:57:00+00:00

Well after some of the posts I have read about cheating wives and how they get all this money from their husbands... Well sometimes I think those dudes in the middle east have the right idea.

ragingpineapple · 2013-07-12T08:06:16+00:00

You cannot be both protected and oppressed, until those who've protected you have made your world safe enough to where you no longer need the protection. Western women are transitioning quickly into a world unknown to their female ancestors in which men have removed or significantly reduced any barrier that would have prevented them from having a safe, fulfilling life independent of the duties of the men in their life. We made it safer with medicine, we eliminated or reduced hunger, we leveled biological differences through technology, etc,. Western women are in the position they are in now because their men largely won the game of surviving the natural world. They have the luxury now of hating those very men for being so damn successful in fulfilling their duties to women. We were so successful that we've all but eliminated the need for us to be anything more than women with penises. After thousands and thousands of years, we won. Pat yourself on the back everybody.

Women elsewhere are still living in a world that is dangerous. Disease, famine, lack of water, lack of modern luxuries such as washing machines, farming equipment, etc,. In this world, women still need division of labor. In this world women still need men to take not only responsibility for themselves, but for women, too. They need their men to risk their lives for the safety of women. The natural world doesn't give one iota to any notion of "fair". In this world, women still need men to be men. In this world, restrictions are placed on women to keep them safe, and duties imposed on their men to keep them safe. None of it "makes sense" when applying it to the West, because we don't have to deal with the same reality. It's very tribal, and it's the kind of civilization most of us sprung from but are fortunate enough not to have to live in anymore.

Trying to look at the 3rd world from a western point of view doesn't make sense. Viewing them is more like looking back in history than simply looking across the pond. Their societies need the kinds of quality of life advancements that the west has already obtained. Pushing feminist theory on 3rd world people before putting in place the advances that allowed gender division to crumble in the west is putting the cart before the horse.

The same thing is happening within populations of the west. Minorities and the poor are less concerned with feminism and women's rights than middle and upper class whites because they're still dealing with everyday problems surviving that white women largely do not. They, too, need men to be men. Western feminists don't understand that, so they sure as hell don't understand what's wrong or how to fix the 3rd world.

idontgetmentsrights · 2013-07-08T06:07:00+00:00

"Male financial burdens"? What do you mean? If you mean having to provide for a household you're not exactly oppressed considering being the source of sustenance would put you in a position of dominance within said household.

If you're talking about being in a position of equal economic assets with a woman and being expected to be the one to pay, then you're still not being oppressed... it means you're economically enabled.

Title	The idea that female oppression is worse than males' is irrelevant to admitting the existence of male oppression
Author	SabatoPsy
Upvotes	427
Comments	239
Date	July 8, 2013 5:07 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1huhcx/the_idea_that_female_oppression_is_worse_than/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/the-idea-that-female-oppression-is-worse-than.1169284 https://theredarchive.com/post/1169284

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