How do we get people to have more empathy for incel men?

BlockBadger · 2024-03-14T18:20:46+00:00

Fundamentally it needs to be the norm for men down in their luck to be worthy of support and sympathy.

Durmyyyy · 2024-03-14T20:51:39+00:00

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Johntoreno · 2024-03-14T20:37:55+00:00

How do we get people to have more empathy for ~~incel~~ men?

FTFY. Men in general get zero empathy. Where do we even begin with this? I've watched psychos on reddit gleefully justifying the forced conscription of men. I've seen psycho feminists not even flinch when i mentioned that little boys were drafted in wars, they still replied to me with "Women are more oppressed", i have no hope in humanity. I have more faith in robot girlfriends becoming a reality than i do in humans changing their attitude towards men.

hottake_toothache · 2024-03-14T16:35:05+00:00

IMO it is unlikely to occur in the mainstream. Men are the disposable sex and women have both the incentive and the social power to prevent mainstream acceptance of empathy for men.

But it can and should be normalized within men's communities. (Unfortunately, those communities will continue to be marginalized for the reasons above.)

Educational_Mud_9062 · 2024-03-14T20:29:57+00:00

I'm not too optimistic in this regard. Any time the discussion concerning the increased difficulty of men to construct healthy marriages is brought up, the male-advocate is fiercely attacked by feminists and simps, people simply do not have empathy for men.

With regards to the failing marriages/relationships of the west, I believe this is a wider issue than just misandry or contemporary social media platforms.

I know this will sound authoritarian on my behalf, but this is an inevitable consequence of liberalism: the rugged individualism of the west causes this sort of radical drift of each individual towards their own micro-culture.

As Hegel would put it: man creates man, contrary to Descartes' "I think therefor I am", in an individualistic society, men and women run the risk if exploiting one another as they have little incentive for the abiding to any sort of collectively agreed upon morals. I am not advocating for authoritarianism, rather I am shedding light on what I believe is the side-effect of liberal individualism.

Illustrious_Bus9486 · 2024-03-14T21:14:16+00:00

Emphasize that the first word of this shortened phrase is involuntary.

Reset_reset_006 · 2024-03-14T22:50:27+00:00

Humans ALWAYS work based on incentive, you have to give someone tangible practical incentive to help men. Whereas women have social and physical incentives to help them.

Men don’t have a lot of “natural” incentives to help them, this is evidence based on just history itself.

tonicKC · 2024-03-15T15:46:27+00:00

As a self identified incel…I think we’ve lost the culture…I recently got banned from incelexit which was the last incel-help related space (oh btw incel*tears is still operating and hasn’t been banned despite it being mostly culture warrior types posting screenshots of them provoking mentally I’ll people and to communally mocking them). All I did was basically make intactivist arguments in the context of my personal feelings about my own body. TBH I blame the redpilled incels…I really hate they they dive into misogyny and right wing ideology. Frankly I see the Andrew rate and more Aeros redpillers as another side of the same coin. They don’t make any serious philosophical challenges to the “game”…they just think men can beat the game. As a lefty it’s the same thing I see with working class people who buy into believing they just need to win the capitalist game rather than critiquing it.

eli_ashe · 2024-03-15T03:29:39+00:00

Start by giving them empathy here, and in similar spaces. In spaces not similar to this, show empathy for incels when they say something there. Not just 'back them up', but show actual empathy towards them. Like 'sorry that happened to you, that was fucked up'.

See for instance how folks comment to posters on r/mengetrapedtoo they tend to just show empathy for the person, affirm that their feelings are valid, their experiences are real, etc...

Not that incels are the same as rape victims, but the technique is well displayed there.

Doing this has multiple effects.

it helps the incel out directly.

it tacitly defends the incel from the attacks by displaying to others that their feelings and experiences are real.

it actively displays to others how to empathize with an incel, which more directly answers the question you asked, e.g. 'how to get people to empathize with incels'.

BloomingBrains · 2024-03-17T07:49:58+00:00

I'm afraid the answer is that they never will until women start suffering in the same way. I hate to say this because it sounds spiteful, and I definitely don't advocate for turnabout, but I really do think that might be the only possibility.

As time goes on those women who called every nerdy or slightly awkward guy an incel will probably be alone when they gets older. In their 20's they can circulate themselves among a few "chads" through hookup culture, but as they get older and start to lose their youth and looks not even those chads will want them anymore. Its not sustainable. The thrill will run dry eventually. So there will likely be ever-growing waves of incel women following each wave of male inceldom until the numbers are about equal. And I guarantee you that if people starting mocking lonely women in their 30's, calling them femcels, spinsters, and crazy cat ladies, (which again I'm not advocating), then all of the sudden we would see articles being written about how lonely women are not bad and have plenty to offer. Whether it will click for the masses that the same also applies to men is anyone's guess, but it might be the only way.

History has already shown us that male problems don't become human problems until they become female problems first.

Cunari · 2024-03-15T04:28:47+00:00

First, you have to get people to feel sorry for people working 10+ hours a day in monotonous/jobs that are not needed.

Society wants you working. Not having sex. That's why the suggestion to men is always to work harder.

No1LudmillaSimp · 2024-03-15T07:14:51+00:00

You're not going to. Men aren't supposed to have needs or desires they haven't already fulfilled without bothering anyone else.

The Right thinks a "real man" neither wants nor needs intimacy, who starts a family for his ancestor's sake but does so solemnly and begrudgingly. A man who takes pride working 14-hour shifts at the orphan crushing plant, feels nothing for his wife and dreads sex night, and primarily communicates to his children via the belt.

The Left is steeped in misandry and a belief that men are ugly savages who must be kept at arms length and are only useful as beasts of burden. They might spare a small sprinkling of empathy towards dead men if they overlap with other groups (e.g., a gay man dying of AIDS or a black man shot by police) but will still drop them quickly.

anaIconda69 · 2024-03-14T15:50:22+00:00

You make it a part of the DSM-5.

cruisinforasnoozinn · 2024-03-15T13:22:12+00:00

Can you explain that? Most people's understanding of incel is that they primarily blame women for their ailments

TinyRespect5740 · 2024-03-15T05:20:04+00:00

Why invest empathy in incel men, you ask? Well, it's not as if they volunteered for the role, is it? Kudos for the revelation that 'incel' isn't a clever jab—quite the epiphany. But convincing them that inceldom isn't a conscious decision? Are we exploring the intricacies of innate incel predispositions, or simply pondering the absence of an 'Incels Anonymous' registration process.

9-28-2023 · 2024-03-14T21:33:48+00:00

You can't change people.

empireofadhd · 2024-03-15T19:23:59+00:00

Somehow not fall into the thinking error of the just world fallacy, where men who succeed with women do so because they deserve it or are good people and those who fail are doing so because they are bad people and hate women.

Living_Accountant_67 · 2024-03-17T11:00:56+00:00

The whole society basically has no empathy for male gender, not to mention incel ones, all they do will always be demonizing them because it is "fun" and takes no backlash for it

2024-03-26T19:14:47+00:00

I have been contemplating arguing that hatred towards incels is a problem of ableism, especially for ND people.

Title_IX_For_All · 2024-03-14T17:56:41+00:00

Edit: pasting my down-thread comment here because it seems to be the central disconnect:

Where are we seeing good evidence that there is a serious trend of 40+ year-old men who have lived all of their lives without having a relationship, despite their best reasonable efforts? I'm simply not seeing it.
Of course people go through dry spells for months, even years, and some people haven't had a serious relationship by age 24. I wouldn't classify that as being unable to attract a partner, as though they have been shut out entirely. Often, relationships are simply about timing.

Original comment: I'm honestly not convinced of the premise or that incorporating it into men's advocacy is productive. Many people who claim they cannot find a partner - both men and women - are overlooking some inconvenient details, including those who claim to be incels.

Supporting arguments for it being a serious issue are too often based on cherry-picking unrepresentative data from dating websites or other dating life analyses which skew overwhelmingly toward the under-30s demographic, when women have a natural advantage, and presenting that as the whole picture. Whereas after 30, the trend reverses permanently in men's favor. Which is why you see tons of women over 40 who say they "can't find a good man" or talk about the "male fear of commitment," the female version of the "incel."

There are people on the incel.co forum who make hundreds or thousands of posts a month about their...situation. They basically live their life on the forum. Imagine if they instead spent that time going to the gym, developing a hobby or taking part in a community that involved regularly meeting women, going to a bookstore, going out into society, etc.

There are also serious fundamental messaging and rhetoric issues. For example, the word is a portmanteau of "involuntarily celibate," which is incredibly narrow and refers to sex. But people often use the word to talk about broader things like loneliness or intimacy. Are the two connected? Sure. But putting "I can't get laid" as the immediate and central messaging point just seems like a rhetorical mis-step on several levels. Especially when presented under the umbrella of "rights."

I've tried to hear what supporters of the "incel" position say in their own words, but so far their arguments just don't seem to be convincing.

ratcake6 · 2024-03-18T00:20:59+00:00

I think not using dumb internet language to describe real people would be a good start. I mean, you don't go around calling people "trolls" or "lurkers" IRL, do ya? XD

Cearball · 2024-03-21T00:20:22+00:00

Could of just left the incel part out & it would still be needed

dajodge · 2024-03-15T17:55:42+00:00

I think time is going to heal some of these issues. I know that's not the answer we (as male advocates) would prefer, but it may be the most realistic.

Women aren't stupid. As much as the dogma of feminism is the zeitgeist of the early 21st century, men's issues are going to become increasingly difficult to deny. As the education gap expands, women will dominate a majority of the sectors of our economies, which will also expand the wage gap in their favor. Women, as the gender now earning the majority of advanced degrees, will be the most qualified for higher paying positions on paper. We know the oppression by the Patriarchy is a lie, so how does your average woman reconcile that in 20 years, when they are inevitably overrepresented in most fields?

In essence, they will be bludgeoned by the inequality of female to male medical doctors, attorneys, pharmacists, professors, etc. Most women are reasonable and will eventually see the disparity.

In terms of expediting the recognition of men's issues? I'm not sure I have an answer for that.

Sea2Chi · 2024-03-14T20:51:25+00:00

I think it really depends on the specific man.

While the root cause may be the same, socially there is a huge difference between a guy who wishes they could have a romantic partner and is sad that they don't and a guy who wishes they had a romantic partner and is hostile towards the world because they don't.

The latter gets all the attention and paints the former with an unfair brush.

It's like the difference between someone saying they're a feminist and they feel there should be greater equality between the sexes and someone saying they're a feminist and all men should die.

One of those is going to be a lot more relatable, but in men's rights subs, people usually are discussing the person spewing hate.

Balochim · 2024-03-15T15:40:38+00:00

Women will never give up their favorite insult

Alternative_Poem445 · 2024-03-16T04:24:45+00:00

this is because the avg person doesn't know the difference between connotation and notation. theres the literal definition of a word, and then theres the cultural tinge deciding if its socially acceptable or not.

luminarium · 2024-03-14T15:43:06+00:00

You do it by creating a political atmosphere wherein anyone who speaks out against men's rights gets their lives and livelihood mercilessly destroyed, their assets confiscated, and their asses put in jail for decades.

drhagbard_celine · 2024-03-14T16:32:44+00:00

Here’s my hot left-wing take. It might help if so many incels didn’t have a chip on their shoulder about their problem, entitled and justified in their opinions because sex is a human need, weren’t so argumentative when hearing advice given in good faith, didn’t attack women for making their own choices about how to be a sexual person, and stopped talking about women in ways that suggest they are only interesting to them in terms of being a potential sexual partner. It would also be helpful if incels who do not fall under these descriptions were seen as policing their own.

That would go a long way towards creating the atmosphere where others take your issues sympathetically. The worst and nosiest among you are not doing your cause any favors.

This is coming from someone who has been involuntarily celibate several times in my life, some of those times for multiple years.

GloomyLocation1259 · 2024-03-14T20:05:38+00:00

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Puzzleheaded_Pea_889 · 2024-03-17T04:06:09+00:00

Regarding the label 'incel' itself, part of the problem comes from the fact that many who openly self-identify as incels (most notably the ones on incels.is) do in fact have genuinely insane, stupid, or hateful beliefs, which gives 'incels' a bad reputation, and so men may avoid openly self-describing as an 'incel' for fear of being associated with them, which results in a feedback loop in which the only men self-describing as 'incels' are the ones who openly hate women.

If we do want to reclaim the 'incel' label, the first step is probably for more of the less hateful incels to begin openly identifying as incels while simultaneously distancing themselves from those you'd find on incels.is. The next is probably to begin making art expressing the life and sentiments of incels, as art tends to be the first step in a community gaining broader social acceptance. The incelcore subgenre of punk music seems to me a good starting point - I'd advocate for more forms of art expressing similar sentiments.

Gaining sympathy for the problem of being involuntary celibate however... I don't know of any good ideas for that. It may be politically wise to avoid self-identifying as 'incels' to avoid the negative associations. It's challenging enough to gain sympathy for the problems themselves, we may not want to needlessly drag ourselves down with debates over the 'incel' label.

tzaanthor · 2024-03-14T20:21:27+00:00

Make them hot women.

DaydreemAddict · 2024-03-14T19:09:01+00:00

Because incels have ruined their own reputation, no one will have empathy towards them.

There are incels who dehumanize women, who view sex as a right, who view marital rape in a positive light, etc. They ruin the reputation of all incels because they all share the same label. This is true for any group with extremists.

Abandon the toxic label and make one that better reflects your emotions and intentions.

2024-03-16T21:58:49+00:00

We don't.

The extremists were fucking retarded and ruined it for us.

There is no value in reforming the Incel identity.

So we do what we can do. Just don't treat men like loosers if they haven't had a lot or any sex. Treat the people that do like the assholes that they are. Try to encourage your friends and younger peers to improve themselves and focus on finding things they enjoy in life rather than defining themselves through women's approval.

For most people If they do that they will probably be find love, sex, companionship, whatever they are seeking.

For those that don't that's just kinda got to be okay.

And the best way to achieve that is have other shit going on.

Otherwise you'll drive yourself fucking mad over it like the incels on the forums who are lost in a self destructive hell spiral to nowhere.

2024-03-14T18:02:03+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	How do we get people to have more empathy for incel men?
Author	Cheetahfan123
Upvotes	146
Comments	120
Date	March 14, 2024 12:44 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/1bekao0/how_do_we_get_people_to_have_more_empathy_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/how-do-we-get-people-to-have-more-empathy-for.1427061 https://theredarchive.com/post/1427061

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