Biological father should always be held responsible for child support, otherwise every tax payer is BB.

not_a_robot_either · 2019-05-19T00:37:30+00:00

If the 80/20 rule were true, the majority of men would support this right? It is not fair that Chad sleeps with the women but you pay tax to help raise their...

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Yes, but men should have 50 % default custody and have equal rights to their biological children to go with it. Not only should the biological father be responsible for child support, but for the total support given to single mothers currently financed by the tax payer. He should pay the whole bill together with the child’s mother. Keep in mind that all the biological father has to do then is to raise his child 50 % of the time, to avoid any bills going to the child’s mother at all.

That way the biological father either accepts 50 % of both financial and caregiving responsibilities for the child, or pays big to avoid these natural responsibilities.

This is how the SMP and RMP looks without artificial subsidies by the way. People overlook and forget that the welfare society enables and subsidises sexual irresponsibility and promiscuity. A lot fewer families would break up or go through divorce too. People forget how much state monopoly on violence goes into enforcing the current circumstances. It does not reflect the natural distribution of power between sexually and economically free men and women at all. Under these more natural and wholesome circumstances a distinct balance of power between men and women would emerge. Nothing like the current circumstances of the oppressed man.

EDIT: Spelling.

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lol dont talk about the fucking law then say "lawyering has no place here". https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/child-custody-presumptions.html

10 states and the district of columbia have a PRESUMPTION of joint custody, an additional 5 have a presumption of joint custody if both parties agree, in the rest joint custody is ALWAYS available as a custody option, but as an option, not presumptively. the majority of divorces end in joint custody today.

US law is based on british common law not "european law" at all (except for the state laws of new orleans, which are based on the napoleonic code), what isnt based in common law is based in modern statutory construction that is in fact a result of US jurisprudence thought

im sorry if you live in a country that doesnt have joint custody, but youre certainly not describing the situation in the US

[–]N0blesse0blige1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

lol dont talk about the fucking law then say "lawyering has no place here". https://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/child-custody-presumptions.html

Lawyering isn’t the same as talking about the law in a contextually appropriate manner. Lawyering is practicing law. It has no place here on a political and ideological sub. Here you speak English and not legalese, so that your arguments are understandable to laymen aka ordinary people. I see it a mile away if someone comes here with their fucking lawyering, presenting their encrypted comparative semantics between English and legalese as superior arguments.

10 states and the district of columbia have a PRESUMPTION of joint custody, an additional 5 have a presumption of joint custody if both parties agree, in the rest joint custody is ALWAYS available as a custody option, but as an option, not presumptively. the majority of divorces end in joint custody today.

Joint custody isn’t the same as default equal 50 % parenting time along with default shared legal custody, and furthermore that the 50 % shared parenting time effectively eliminates any legitimate demand for child support.

Laws that require joint physical custody could also lead to the elimination of child support in some states, women's advocates say, disrupting a system that was designed to help women, who have historically been paid less in the workforce while performing more unpaid labor at home.

Source: Washingtion Post (link at the bottom)

Straight from the horse’s mouth...

US law is based on british common law not "european law" at all (except for the state laws of new orleans, which are based on the napoleonic code),

Pretty sure Britian is part of Europe. The other major tradition of law as far as I understand being Roman/civil law. Yes, the Roman republic, later Empire, one of the other European civilizations which has influenced the development of the US a great deal.

More importantly, politicians and lawmakers in the Western nations regularly copy each other. The "Child’s best interest" for example is found throughout US and Europe, and I bet Canada, New Zealand and Australia too.

what isnt based in common law is based in modern statutory construction that is in fact a result of US jurisprudence thought

Translated to English: What isn’t based in common law is constructed through legal habit, regularity and common practice resulting from US theory and philosophy of law.

im sorry if you live in a country that doesnt have joint custody, but youre certainly not describing the situation in the US

You’re implicity equating the possibility of joint custody with my proposition of 50 % default shared/physical custody/"parenting time". That’s just wrong, not being the same or equivalent at all, plain and simple. There are many different arrangements of joint custody, and they do not default to equal parenting time, but are rather the possible result of a judge’s, possibly alongside expert, evaluation of the "child’s best interest", often favoring the mother.

The guiding principle in custody rulings changed to a more flexible and gender-neutral "best interest of the child" standard, and states overturned previous rules that disallowed joint custody.

But despite changing laws, judges continued to use their discretion to award primary physical custody overwhelmingly to mothers in many places, reflecting a lingering bias, many say.

—

He and his son's mother could not agree on a custody arrangement, so they went to court, where Paasch asked for primary custody. A court-appointed investigator tasked with representing the interests of his child recommended equally shared custody.

A judge in southern Virginia instead gave primary custody to the mother and granted Paasch visitation, he said.

He appealed and in a settlement worked out an agreement to have physical custody for almost half the time.

—

Maintaining close contact and being involved in important decisions has required frequent court intervention. If the laws had given fathers more explicit rights, he believes, the process would have been less contentious.

"It took us eight years and eight or nine times in court and about 15 attorneys to get to this point," said Paasch, who has since married and whose wife, Kristen, has become involved in advocacy for shared parenting.

Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/more-than-20-states-in-2017-considered-laws-to-promote-shared-custody-of-children-after-divorce/2017/12/11/d924b938-c4b7-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512_story.html?utm_term=.6d126ef95089

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (22 children) | Copy Link

The laws favor the primary caretaker.

Which would be the mother in a clear majority of the cases, especially for small and newborn children. I even recognize the mother as a natural primary caretaker for small children.

They are gender neutral, this can be both men or women. The “custody gap” goes hand in with other disparities like the “wage gap” when you factor in the choices each gender tends to make.

Not equivalent. This conveniently exaggarates the wage gap (which has been debunked as a straight forward, unqualified claim) and trivializes the "custody gap". The laws shouldn’t favor the primary caregiver because that is already heavily associated with the mother. Instead both biological parents should have an equal right to raise their child, and be guaranteed that they don’t have to pay anything to anyone as long a they fulfil their part of the responsibility.

Thus, you see more women getting primary residential custody because they prioritize the kids, the consequence of which are often that their career takes a hit.

Men can’t even feed an infant without artificial, sub-optimal means. A man cannot be held to his innate biological limitations, but should rather have rights and responsibilities to the the child based on genetic contribution.

That being said I’m still in favor of 50/50 default assuming men opt in for it.

There should be no opting out of natural economic responsibility for the father, though. If a man wants to opt out of fatherhood he should either have to finance half of the child’s expenses for the next 18 years or be relieved of his economic responsibilities through adoption.

There are actually many states which have moved for this recently or are in the process so I’ve read.

There you go. Confirming that it is still not the default or the case most places.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

It absolutely is equivalent, you can’t just say “biology” and ignore men’s choices that help create this gap as if they have no part in it. I’m saying the parents have to opt into a 50/50 set up, opting out would be a PRC set up. Honestly not sure how many men even want 50/50, some do legitimately, sure, but not sure it’s anywhere close to 100% in divorces.

It’s also not as stacked as you’re making it seem when men do actually spend a significant portion of time taking care of their kids relative to mom - even when the children are young. I’ve negotiated plenty of 50/50ish agreements. But they don’t, generally speaking.

You can get mad and make me out to be some sort of bad guy for reporting the truth but i already said I’m in favor of 50/50 default so...

I’m not hiding anything most states still follow a PRC model. Which I’ve said many many times in this sub before.

[–]N0blesse0blige0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

It absolutely is equivalent, you can’t just say “biology” and ignore men’s choices that help create this gap as if they have no part in it

We are not talking about an innate psychological disposition that can be molded in many directions by experience. We are talking about a physiological limitation, the inability to breastfeed.

Men’s current choices are affected by their inferior legal status as parent together with a bail out subsidised by the tax payer.

Lastly, men tend to view the family, wife and children, as their domain of protection and provision. Their motivation to invest is already complicated and compromised if the family breaks up. This should noh be held against them legally either. Women initiate the majority of divorces, and should not be economically incentivized anymore.

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asks questions such as who picks the kids up, who arranges for their activities and necessities who bathed feeds and clothes them, who puts them to bed, etc. there’s nothing that men can’t do if they wanted to at 50% or more

These are, skills, domains, cultural and natural sex-gender roles that favor the mother. It punishes reasonable and sensible men who know for what roles the mother is better suited. They could have included domains naturally and culturally primary to men, such as provision, discipline, moral development, learning to relate to authority figures, learning to work in hierachies, becoming and developing into a man for boys, and seeking quality life-partners later in life for girls. We can leave this discussion at a draw on account of differing interpretations if you want, otherwise I’m fine with dogging it out and drive my point further until it sticks.

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The guiding principle in custody rulings changed to a more flexible and gender-neutral "best interest of the child" standard, and states overturned previous rules that disallowed joint custody.

But despite changing laws, judges continued to use their discretion to award primary physical custody overwhelmingly to mothers in many places, reflecting a lingering bias, many say.

—

Maintaining close contact and being involved in important decisions has required frequent court intervention. If the laws had given fathers more explicit rights, he believes, the process would have been less contentious.

"It took us eight years and eight or nine times in court and about 15 attorneys to get to this point," said Paasch, who has since married and whose wife, Kristen, has become involved in advocacy for shared parenting.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/more-than-20-states-in-2017-considered-laws-to-promote-shared-custody-of-children-after-divorce/2017/12/11/d924b938-c4b7-11e7-84bc-5e285c7f4512_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.e1a6666efe7e

You don’t know my emotions, and my emotional state is not relevant to the discussion. For all you know I just find you pathetic and couldn’t give a shit. In fact that’s closer to my psychological state.

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Because there is no law that discriminates against female nature (female innate dispositions) in achieving equal pay, while there is for custody. "Child’s best interests", which favors the mother (though gender-neutral on paper, which was probably what you were relying on with your lawyering in the first place). To the extent that it is about "choices", it is about men being less likely to choose to fulfil roles better suited to female nature, or choosing not to artificially replace breastfeeding (a part of female physiological nature), which has been shown to be very important to the child’s development. That’s why I offered a draw based on differing interpretations, though your interpretation of "choice" is unsophisticated.

For work there are plenty of choices that cater to female nature: Physician, psychologist, social worker, nurse, pre-school teacher, primary-school teacher, running a kindergarden, and a growing number of pink-collar jobs where qualities such communication and social skills are valued. Conversely, it is blue collar jobs requiring physical labor that are disappearing, causing not just low pay for mostly men but unemployment without pay.

More importantly there are no laws that undermine female nature in achieving equal pay. Quite opposite, there are laws that protect contextual work-related "disadvantages" to female physiology at the costly expense of companies: It is for example illegal to ask about pregnancy in job interviews (if your laws are anything like mine) and considered an act of dicrimination to withdraw a job offering after pregnancy has been revealed. There is also maternity leave.

Where is the equivalent custody law that actively protects men against being discriminated against because of their inability to breastfeed?

[–]sublimemongrel3 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well there’s your problem - I don’t agree that there’s anything lacking in “male nature” that would prevent them from being able to contribute 50% or more to child caretaking. You keep focusing on breastfeeding - that’s a tiny percentage of the caretaking in totality generally speaking and I’ve never once in practice seen that be the deciding factor.

You can’t have it both ways - if there’s something in female nature that makes them more suited to caretaking and thus preventing men from doing 50% or more than by that same logic there is something holding women back careerwise whereas it doesn’t hold men back. It’s the exact same logical basis that’s why it’s equivalent. The law doesn’t discriminate against men anymore than capitalism discriminate against women IMO. But if you feel laws favoring primary caretakers do discriminate against men than surely you’d believe that our current capitalistic/social culture also discriminates against women wrt the “wage gap” - yet you don’t. It’s a clear contradiction.

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I can try to explain it another way. Your article you listed linked to another article. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/02/upshot/the-divorce-surge-is-over-but-the-myth-lives-on.html . This article explains: "About 70 percent of marriages that began in the 1990s reached their 15th anniversary (excluding those in which a spouse died), up from about 65 percent of those that began in the 1970s and 1980s. Those who married in the 2000s are so far divorcing at even lower rates. If current trends continue, nearly two-thirds of marriages will never involve a divorce, according to data from Justin Wolfers, a University of Michigan economist"

In other words, it's making a claim that if "current trends" hold then the divorce rate will be lower for college educated. It is assuming a current data trend, and that nothing will foul this data trend. This is where the "why" is important. Because if current trends don't hold, you would need to re-examine your theory and explain why it didn't pan out. One possible reason could be that women are just as likely to divorce after the children are out of the house. I don't think that is necessarily the case personally, but you would need a "why" reason if the trend doesn't hold.

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Yes, it applies to women as well. But here’s the thing: women have an out which is abortion.

At least you call it for what it is: a way out of having to take responsibility for their decisions.

Men have an out which is a vasectomy.

That's not an "out." Abortion is an "out" because it gives women an option where one did not exist before. Vasectomies completely take away all choices, or prevent the scenarios where a choice could be made. They are not the same thing.

You can’t sit on your ass and think woe is me but do fuck all as men have been doing.

Ummmm okay. The problem with this line of thinking is that men are trying to do something to rectify the imbalance that abortion proposes, but those things are unfavorable to both sides. As you mentioned male birth control already, that is really not an option for most men who want to be sane and continue to feel like men. The other option is getting rid of abortion so that both sides of the field are equal again, but women don't want that, of course. There's too much power and convenience with abortion for them to just let it go.

Edit: There really is no middle-ground or compromise on the subject of abortion and reproduction. Someone has to lose or sacrifice in order for the other to win, and it's understandable that neither side wants to concede to the other.

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Why hasn’t the male birth control pill been rolled out yet?

They're trying.

The side effects aren’t nearly as bad as the side effects of the female pill when it first came out and now.

They're actually way worse. Do you even Google?

Maybe instead of trying to grapple with women’s choice and bodily autonomy, you should redirect that energy to achieving the real solution, which is male autonomy in fatherhood. Would be a lot easier to shoot blanks if you don’t want kids and don’t want to be stuck paying child support.

Nah. Fair is fair.

Personal responsibility for NONE (abortions fully legalized, no involuntary child support)

Or personal responsibility for ALL

(abortions banned, involuntary child support)

That's equality

That's justice

And that's very close to happening in this country

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Why hasn’t the male birth control pill been rolled out yet? The side effects aren’t nearly as bad as the side effects of the female pill when it first came out and now.

"Not nearly as bad" does not equal "good." I'd guess because men don't want to be depressed and suicidal while having their testosterone levels drop to a point where they don't feel like men anymore.

Maybe instead of trying to grapple with women’s choice and bodily autonomy, you should redirect that energy to achieving the real solution, which is male autonomy in fatherhood.

You do realize the problem with what you're saying, right? There is no "male autonomy" and "fatherhood" when there is "female autonomy" and "motherhood." Abortion rights give women their autonomy and motherhood while taking away male autonomy and fatherhood via "women's choice."

Would be a lot easier to shoot blanks if you don’t want kids and don’t want to be stuck paying child support.

"Would be a lot easier to get your tubes tied if you don't want kids and don't want to be stuck caring for and raising them."

What good is this argument? It applies to both men and women, but all you're doing is taking away the women's portion of responsibility and options to make it look like it's solely the men's responsibility and fault for not utilizing their (limited) options when they had the chance. Not a good argument at all.

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Ideally, yes, but it isn't always possible. Some biological fathers are not capable of paying child support. I don't know the figures, but I suspect that fathers who are capable of supporting their children generally do. They'll live with the child and the child's mother, or if they don't live with the child, they generally do pay some child support if they are capable. For the minority who are capable, but don't, I'm all for holding them responsible.

That leaves the fathers on low incomes or who have pretty much no income at all. You can "hold them responsible" if you like, but what does that mean? If they can't pay, they can't pay. The state often is faced with a choice: step in and pay for them, or leave children living in poverty. Those children will grow up with fewer resources, worse nutrition, fewer educational opportunities, and when they grow up, will be less capable of contributing back to society as a result. Since OP brings up fairness issues, I'll add: What is fair to those children? It is not fair they are penalized for their father's poor choices or inability to pay.

[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]curiouskiwicatPurple Pill Man2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (14 children) | Copy Link

With you on that! I probably agree more than disagree with you. But this was marked as a "CMV" my top-level post must focus on our areas of disagreement.

I wonder where you're coming from though because isn't this actually the expectation in practice in...pretty much every country...that both parents should take responsibility for children? Are you just saying the status quo is basically correct: fathers should pay child support if they don't live with the child?

Funny story: a few years ago I moved temporarily to the USA. I got a Los Angeles phone number and within a few weeks I was being called by LA County Court telling me to show up and pay my child support I was delinquent on. The thing is, I'm not a father, and seeing as I just arrived in the country, it was physically impossible I could have been a father there :-P I ignored the messages, because what else could I do? they were intended for someone else, whoever had had that phone number before me. If there's any lesson from that, it is that the expectation from the government and society was there, but it's not always carried out in practice.

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I suspect there are some trust issues going on and some of these guys are terrified some woman will trap them into parenthood. No woman I ever slept with seemed keen on the idea of single motherhood with or without a payment so it's not been an issue for me. If you use a condom correctly the chances are pretty minimal. Guys, do that, plus avoid casual sex with women who have moral issues with abortion, and you'll be fine.

I knew a guy who had a real scare after he was casually dating a woman and got her pregnant. She had told him she was on contraceptives whem she wasn't, or had missed a pill, or something. She went back and forth about abortion for a long time, he thought she was just messing with him. She went through with it in the end. I sympathized with his position as it looked tough, and I was a friend. But to me - men and women having casual sex both need to independently ensure they're protected. Until you know your partner well enough to trust them...trust yourself. You don't trust strangers you met on tinder with your wallet or email password...Don't trust them with your reproductive system either!

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I'm struggling to see the equivalence here.

I do see the inequality in that after sex, only a woman gets a say in whether the couple has a child. I also see the inequality in that women tend to get looked on favorably in custody battles, although I suspect that's because women get an advantage in forming an emotional bond with the child after having physically carried them for 9 months and then, in most cases, nursing them as infants.

I get confused when you talk about "unfair to punish only the men while the women don't have the same level of responsibility".

The law definitely holds both parties responsible for raising a kid. In the minority of cases where a father is raising a kid that the mother ditched, the law would hold her responsible for child support just like it would hold a father responsible.

[–]reddtormtnliv0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I would say the law requires both to raise the kid, but not necessarily fairly or in the same aspects (for example mothers do most of the child care, while fathers do more financial support). For example, considering child support, I don't have stats and maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong and you do have some stats- but I would guess less than 10% of women are obligated to child support while up to 50-70% of men are obligated. And some laws for child support are so strict that sometimes the man gets sent to jail. But I would guess this doesn't happen proportionately to a woman. I know a common reply to this is that the man didn't ask for child custody, so therefore was obligated to child support. But how do we not know if there is a bias in the court systems? I've seen bias in other areas of laws where a man gets punished more for the same type of crime. I do think the courts are becoming better but still have a ways to go.

So what I'm saying is that I think men will face stricter obligations (mostly related financially and going to jail more often if they fail to meet expectations) while women can choose to get on welfare if they want. So one group will have more responsibility and less rights, while the other group would remain unchanged. This is another point that needs addressing- is the concept of rights vs responsibility. If men will face more harsh requirements for child support (responsibility), will society offer guaranteed jobs with a certain amount of pay so men won't get sent to jail (a right)? If we will have stricter child support laws for men, will we have stricter laws for women to help identify the father or get a DNA test if necessary? I can see people now claiming already this is an intrusion of rights, but no one will probably claim the same with stricter laws for men. I don't know if this is how it will go down, but seeing the track record- it seems a possiblity.

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It's as fair and sensible as a human being being painfully pushed out of a small hole in a woman especially in places where MEN remove the ability to safely abort.

It seems like most of your beef is actually with the religious anti-abortion laws of the US then, not the actual topic at hand.

To be clear I am 100% pro-choice. I said already in my top level comment that abortion should be readily available and accessible for any woman who wants it. No argument there.

No matter how you feel about it, a child is there.

No matter how you feel about it, a child is only there if the woman decides she wants the child there.

We shouldn't have to pay for your shitty decision making.

Why should men have to pay for the shitty decision making of women then? You can't have it both ways.

This shitty whining about your own flesh and blood is pathetic. If draconian rules ever come back, I support then cannabilizing weak whiny men for strong ones that understand duty and lineage

Would you like a Xanax?

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Yes, because you have to live in a country to know some things that happen in that country.

Just because you know what's happening doesn't mean you know the in's and outs of it. I know Brexit is going on, I understand it but to any real depth or knowledge? No. Nor do I pretend I do. More so especially with US media outlets its really easy to get a bias point of view of things. Most of our media is liberal slant/bias. As such they are pushing an agenda/narrative. Hell look at /r/politics per example.

Unless you’re telling me these things never happen in the US, then I stand by my statement.

They do, but not to the degree you think it actually happens. People who become disabled can go on medicaid for their healthcare needs as long as they qualify. But as I said before people can walk away from their jobs in the US as they don't face jail or what have you for not doing what their employer wants them to do. More so people in the US fear prison more than their employer. Surely you heard about our prisons.

The draft still doesn’t fit into that definition for me.

Despite it fits perfectly.

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Most men don't need the lecture - men in general are not irresponsible in reproducing out of wedlock kids. The United States has an OOW birth-rate that hovers at 40%, with many of these women producing multiple OOW children with just a small number of deadbeats and losers.

The penalty for producing OOW kids is court-mandated child support, thus smart men with money and careers are not producing excess kids all over the place. They have much to lose by way of child support.

Nowhere is this narrative more false than within the U.S. Black population.

A number that gets missed from the mainstream media narrative is the 24% of Black men who are doing all this damage. It’s not most Black men. It’s a small number impregnating and abandoning these children.

The data comes from the National Health and Statistics Report (April, 12, 2012 titled "Fertility of Men and Women Aged 15–44 Years in the United States: National Survey of Family Growth, 2006–2010"). It lists as fact that 43% of Black men DO NOT have children. Additionally, and although it’s very low, 32% of Black men are married…presumably producing children in marriage and caring for said children. The report is linked to the 2010 Census. I’m actually interested in numbers for the upcoming 2020 Census. It should be both interesting and very telling.

See report:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/nhsr.htm - (select Tab #3)

See also Black marriage-rate:

https://blackdemographics.com/households/marriage-in-black-america/

It makes sense when you consider that 43% of Black men have never married/yet to marry, but don't have children and 32% of black men are already married and (presumably) producing children with their wives. With Black men who DON'T have kids (43%) and the married men (32%, albeit a very low marriage-rate), this accounts for 75% of Black men NOT producing out of wedlock kids. It's basically 24%, (consistent with the report) all impregnating and railing multiple women.

The mainstream narrative speaks ill of Black men who create the out of wedlock problem, but ignores Black men who don't have kids and the married men who actually care for and nurture their children to adulthood.

24% percent seems reasonable when you consider that only 26% of Black women are married to a legally recognized husband. This means the 74% who can’t get a man are likely the single-parent unwed mothers who got blasted by Tyrone who left them pregnant and alone at a rate of 72%.

https://www.chron.com/life/mom-houston/article/72-of-black-babies-born-to-unwed-moms-data-1709669.php

This particular article from The Root (a Black-focused website) highlights the problem and the negative childhood outcomes for a single-mother's children

https://www.theroot.com/72-percent-of-african-american-children-born-to-unwed-m-1790881542

It’s reasonable to deduce that Black men who DON’T have kids, but are available DO NOT want these women who birthed Tyrone’s kid(s). It's makes sense that other races of men DON'T want them as well.

Bottom line - men don't need the lecture on reproductive responsibility. It's women who need the lecture - especially the ones who produce these OOW kids with deadbeats and can't seem to get it right by doing it again...and again.

cc - u/guffynemo

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I'm disagreeing with you but don't see you as a misogynist... yet... lol.

Oh no I'm quaking in my boots. I really am. However will my gf react when she finds out that all this time I've been hating her for six years. My life is over.

🙄

However treating women with contempt (your dearest friend, subtly insulting women isn't just a disagreement ffs) and constantly telling that women are basically subhumans (Atlas) is misogyny.

Lol you use one quote from one thread to say conca "treats women with contempt."

How do you know how he treats women IRL based on a single Reddit comment?

And please do link me to where Atlas called women "subhuman." I've love to see that.

Again... at least you admit in your own words in previous threads you are unkind and have no empathy. I can at least respect honesty.

[–][deleted]0 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So you can use sarcasm but can't see it when others use it? Oh so weird 😏

Oh yeah in one thread it was just an accident. He's all nice, white and fluffy. I already got it that's how you see him.

Oh god. She doesn't need to call them 'subhumans' directly, I already said it. She obviously won't do it, just like your dearest friend won't do it. But the absolute majority of her posts when she talks about women scream about it.

I don't see what kindness has anything to do with it and, don't worry, my cognitive empathy is even higher than average. I only lack the emotional one. But again I don't see what it has to do with this convo. And no, I don't need some bullshit excuses to make my actions look morally right, so I can feel good about myself. Rationalisation as a defence mechanism is for the weak. It's not like I care what you can respect though.

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No, it’s implying that if a woman using birth control and still gets pregnant is still told “you should’ve closed your legs” then men should receive the same response.

I don't support women being told that either.

If birth control is used, and it happens to fail, I am not going to blame the man OR woman for that or make any moral judgement.

I believe abortion should be readily available for women and Vaselgel or vasectomies readily available for men. I cannot stress how Vaselgel cannot come soon enough. Only reason it hasn't is cuz big pharma doesn't wanna sell you something you only need once every ten years. So it's being developed by a non-profit with limited funds.

It’s implying that when every woman I know has a story of a man trying to get out of using a condom because it doesn’t “feel as good” then they’re just as to blame for irresponsible/stupid decisions.

I have multiple stories of women trying to convince me not to use condoms js.

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BOTH men and women should have the opportunity to opt out post sex,

It's called adoption.

Yeah women also know how babies are made, so no problem banning abortion!

You and feminists are so funny, and yes, I think you're no better than feminists. 47% of American women are pro-life, 3 of the 5 writers of the Georgia bill were women, the person who wrote Alabama's bill was a woman, and the Governor who gleefully signed it into law WAS A WOMAN. Mind you, Alabama doesn't even give exceptions to rape.

So both you and feminists need to stop being smartasses about abortion topics, because you're not good at it.

One more thing: Most pro-life activists are women and the founder of one of the biggest pro-life movements....is a woman who lost her virginity to her husband and is currently pregnant with her first child. So checkmate.

[–]Lordb0lton 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

BOTH men and women should have the opportunity to opt out post sex,

It's called adoption.

If the woman doesn't consent to adoption the man is still on the hook.

So no.

Yeah women also know how babies are made, so no problem banning abortion!

You and feminists are so funny, and yes, I think you're no better than feminists. 47% of American women are pro-life, 3 of the 5 writers of the Georgia bill were women, the person who wrote Alabama's bill was a woman, and the Governor who gleefully signed it into law WAS A WOMAN. Mind you, Alabama doesn't even give exceptions to rape.

I know. And most pro-lifers are women. That was not my point. My point was that there's no need for abortion since women know how babies are made ..if they don't want to be a parent, they can just not have sex (also known as the advice given to men currently who don't want to be a parent)

Personal responsiblity for NONE

or personal responsibility for ALL

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My attitude is this- either as a society we care, which means we agree for some of our taxes to be used for social services for those who need them (not all single moms do). We dont put the entire burden on one person and we equally apply the concept that having sex doesn't mean consenting to being a parent (unless you only back out after the child is born/abortion period is over.)

Second option is we dont care and in that case we can stop pretending that universally forcing some guy to pay wont solve a much greater issue of economic inequality in which kids are raised (and anyway why should one kid be granted tons of money because their father is rich and the other barely make it with two parents?), so we have limited social support and let the mother decide whether or not she can afford a kid by herself since there is always abortion and adoption.

It feels very wrong to me to pretend you just have to ruin someones life for the sake of the child, but also supposedly hate the very idea that some of our taxes go towards children in need in general.

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If you cant afford to raise a children by your own means you should use every contraception you can if you cant even afford that you shouldn't fuck until you can. Government taking care of single moms is the problem be it forced child support or government support. If they knew they would have to work their ass of to take care of their spawn they would consider it thousand times before being reckless.

If men doesn't want to be father but mom does she should have all custody while also having all the burden, no government child support either. Men cant have anything at this scenario and can be banned from being in the vicinity or contacting the child till the child is 18x

If men wants to be father but mom doesn't she has right to end the pregnancy and men cant do anything about that. In that case woman should pay for his therapy, that shit should have consequences.

If both want it and both are decent human brings 50-50% on absolutely everything.

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In America, you grow up in a "secure environment" if your parents can afford to live in a nice suburb or some such. If not, you live in the ghetto, or a trailer park in BFE, etc., and take your chances.

Same with education. If your parents can afford to send you to a nice school, great; otherwise, you go to one with metal detectors at the entrances, 20-year-old textbooks and BYO toilet paper.

Whether you get to "use your potential" depends on myriad factors ranging from the circumstances of your birth to your personal drive to sheer luck.

The good news is that in this system, the bright, talented and/ or lucky can do extremely well for themselves because their wealth isn't continually being siphoned off to subsidize the incompetent and lazy. The downside is that there isn't much of a safety net for those latter groups.

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I don't see having a few super-rich individuals as a problem, unless they're doing things to stifle the competition and keeping new innovations from reaching the market. Then we might have a problem, but otherwise? No. They're not breaking my arm or picking my pocket. They're free to cruise around on their yachts or bring even more products to market if they wish. They're not hurting anyone by virtue of being rich.

A progressive tax rate in a democratically elected society creates an awful temptation to set confiscatory rates, since things are decided (in a roundabout way) by the popular vote, and there will always be more poor and average people than there will be super-rich ones. Wise government are careful to not kill the geese who lay golden eggs. Foolish governments nationalize successful businesses then run them into the ground because guess what? It seems competence matters, and giving jobs to political allies who don't actually know what they're doing seldom works out in the long run. Huh. Who'd-a thunk it?!

[–]Juko0071 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Of course they do. They can only be super-rich because a lot of other people are super-poor. And while super-poor people directly lead to an increased crime rate and political instability, we as a society gain nothing from a few super-rich individuals. You are just as innovative and industrious with 10 billion in the bank as you are with 100 billion in the bank, so why not use that money to prevent the negative consequences of poverty?

I can give you two examples from Germany where exactly the opposite happened: Deutsche Post and Deutsche Bahn. Both were extremely efficient and well-respected state-run institutions that turned to shit when they were privatized because pouring out money to shareholders became suddenly more important than good services and building infrastructure. We're seeing the same thing happening right now with companies like Vonovia. I'm curious though, was there ever a private company in the US that became worse because it was taken over by the government?

[–]Willow-girl2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

They can only be super-rich because a lot of other people are super-poor.

This is a fallacy. The fact that a lot of people choose to use Google and Facebook, thus enriching their founders, doesn't automatically make someone else poor. It's not a bad thing if money flows to a person or business providing a superior product or service. That's the way things are supposed to work. It's only a problem if one seeks to unfairly stifle competitors.

You are just as innovative and industrious with 10 billion in the bank as you are with 100 billion in the bank, so why not use that money to prevent the negative consequences of poverty?

If a rich person arrives at this conclusion, I have no argument with him. It's his money to spend however he wants. If he wants to give it all to charity, more power to him! But it's not my place, or society's place, to decide when he has "enough" money and to confiscate everything over that amount. Morally, that's theft, even if it's sanctioned by the state.

Both were extremely efficient and well-respected state-run institutions that turned to shit when they were privatized because pouring out money to shareholders became suddenly more important than good services and building infrastructure.

In a free market, a company that makes bad decisions will lose market share and may even fold as a result. And that's OK -- a competitor will step up and offer to give customers what they want.

The U.S. government is not in the habit of taking over private companies. I believe President Truman tried to nationalize the steel industry to ward off a strike but was ultimately denied by the SCOTUS. And that was nearly 70 years ago. The closest example that comes to mind is the change in airport security screening that took place following 9/11. Even though security screeners were not to blame for the hijacking, the government deemed it necessary to make them federal employees, ostensibly to raise standards and prevent further attacks. In reality, the way this played out was that most of the people already doing the job were hired by the government and got a whopping pay raise and a great deal more job security, as it's extremely difficult to fire federal workers, even when their performance leaves something to be desired. According to internal documents occasionally leaked to the public, screeners still aren't very adept at finding bombs, and a number of scandals have erupted ranging from theft by TSA agents to sexual assaults of passengers. The agency has also spent tens of millions of dollars on new technology that hasn't panned out.

A number of airports have exercised the option to hire private security companies to replace TSA screeners, but the TSA has to approve the request and retains control of the bidding process and details of the contract. This is rather like firing someone while allowing them to hire their replacement and dictate the terms of his contract! I can't imagine that is going to go well.

Almost no one is happy with the TSA's performance. It serves as a good cautionary tale as to what can happen when the government replaces private workers.

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Title	Biological father should always be held responsible for child support, otherwise every tax payer is BB.
Author	not_a_robot_either
Upvotes	45
Comments	647
Date	May 19, 2019 12:37 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/bqay88/biological_father_should_always_be_held/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/biological-father-should-always-be-held.255706 https://theredarchive.com/post/255706

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