the incel phenomenon is not a result of feminism but of personality and character, incels have always been with us

lefactorybebe · 2018-05-07T15:51:14+00:00

Oh yeah, they've always been around and likely will be forever. Now they're just able to congregate with others who are like-minded online. I always think about an incel 150 years ago, he was that weird guy in the village who everyone avoided. But now he has a bigger platform to speak from, and others who will listen to him.

It's the same idea I have with mass shooters/mass attackers. The people have always existed, it's just a lot easier to kill a whole bunch of people now than it was 150 years ago.

goatismycopilot · 2018-05-07T16:11:21+00:00

In the old days, women who were not married by a certain age were considered super suspect so I am sure they married some weirdo incel dudes with horrible personalities and just moved into a separate bedroom after they popped out a few kids or some of those guys just became quirky bachelors. Now women would rather be cat ladies and go to unicorn conventions than get stuck with some weirdo who does not bathe and talks about libertariansim or some other ism nobody cares about has no social skills or talks too much about their social anxiety.

storffish · 2018-05-07T15:28:32+00:00

it's the result of the internet. those guys always existed but they didn't always have online echo chamber forums to crystallize their personal experience into an ideology. the "phenomenon" comes from them gathering in groups and forming a culture, not the fact that socially stunted individuals exist.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-05-07T16:01:19+00:00

Feminism has been around longer then these comics.

There are more incels now then there was in the past. Times were a little tougher in the past. It was hard to be fat and on the computer all day, and the truly weak were more likely to die

Pope_Lucious · 2018-05-07T15:36:03+00:00

Yes. INCELs have always been around, but now they have Internet forums to broadcast Black Pill nonsense. INCELs wouldn’t have faired any better in the Pre-Feminism SMV.

[deleted] · 2018-05-07T17:30:47+00:00

Your confusing the nice guy for an incel.

Incel's don't actually believe moral actions and kindness should get them laid. Incels believe they are genetically inferior to chads and cannot get laid at all, due to not having good facial structure.

wub1234 · 2018-05-07T16:02:43+00:00

I'm sure there has always been an archetype, but IMO 'inceldom' is far more prevalent today because women have way more choice. If you went back to the 70s, for example, when my mum and dad got together, your potential dating pool was anyone that you came into contact with. I can easily imagine at that time if you were a plain or unattractive woman that you could be shunned completely (although there were far less fat people around at that time). You'd almost be glad of any guy showing interest. I'm not sure if this led to happier relationships, but I'm sure that there were less incels.

Nowadays the same woman of the same level of attractiveness can just log on to any dating app or website, and have, conservatively, dozens of options. If you're actually attractive then you'll have so many options that you won't even know what to do with them.

Some people advocate daygame and mass approaching, but this has to become almost a full-time occupation, even for guys who are good at it. This also isn't good for introverts, and also for people who don't want to have hundreds of inane conversations, the vast majority of which lead absolutely nowhere.

The best way to meet someone is still organically, but if this doesn't happen and you have to 'date' then I can easily see how you could be perfectly adequate, but become alienated and feel worthless. To be perfectly honest, there is no guarantee I will have a partner ever again, in fact I'm not sure if I'll even bother with the 'dating market' again. It's not worth the hassle, from my experience it's a huge amount of time, effort, flaking and bullshit for very little reward. Honestly, if all you want to do is get laid, you're better off getting hookers.

darla10 · 2018-05-07T15:56:17+00:00

I own that movie, and it is depressing to watch more than once. Yes this character is familiar and YES I know people like this IRL. One guy in particular is an old-school nerd who embodies Crumb except for the success part...and that guy has nothing nice to say about us gals. There is nothing anyone can do to fix him.

paccount112 · 2018-05-07T16:21:14+00:00

So why have they only recently taken to renting vans?

BiggerDthanYou · 2018-05-07T15:43:04+00:00

Isn't the argument that before feminism women often didn't had the choice not to get married and therefore feminism caused incels because women no longer have to settle for a provider?

The argument isn't that feminism made them short, ugly or autistic, but that feminism removed the necessity of women to commit to such men.

ifelsedowhile · 2018-05-07T21:42:54+00:00

I see some people are using incel as 'involuntary celibate who share feelings of hatred towards women' rather than just 'involuntary celibate' regardless of how he feels like about women.

analt223 · 2018-05-07T18:53:18+00:00

There are many many more incels now, especially since social media took off.

Social media is primarily for women, it allows them to receive lots and lots of attention (even if its just through likes, retweets, follows, etc), allowing them to pick from a larger pool of men (since men initiate usually), however they are mostly gravitating towards a fewer raw number of men.

The internet being everywhere and anywhere has also caused people to just retreat to it instead of going out and socializing.

Finally, women are now not considered weird being unmarried, thus women latched onto some dude more often

DareyFathom · 2018-05-07T16:11:29+00:00

Isn't the percentage of sexless young men (17-39) increasing annually? Something like .6% increase/year. I'm sure they always existed, but I think their problems are getting exacerbated in our modern society.

wtknight · 2018-05-07T17:28:27+00:00

Sure, but the problem is likely getting worse though due to the decline in marriage. The type of man who previously had an N of 1 may now have an N of 0.

ganso_bum · 2018-05-07T17:45:13+00:00

The internet brings everyone together.

[deleted] · 2018-05-07T20:07:56+00:00

There used to be more outlets for the incel type. The church, the military, remote physical labor.

These are still outlets, but they represent a much smaller portion of the labor economy now.

There's also the notion that women used to rely more on men economically, so there were fewer cases of divorce and single motherhood.

With women entering the workforce by storm over the past fifty years, the incel types now are in a real pickel.

So, yeah they've always existed, but only recently are they so loud and obnoxious.

Fiendish · 2018-05-07T21:09:21+00:00

It's neither of those, it's that almost all women have the opportunity to have children whereas less than half of men get the opportunity, just statistically. Look it up!

oftheinfinite · 2018-05-08T14:05:37+00:00

It is a result of being unattractive or downright ugly and not of personality and character. At the same time, I believe that incels are actually volcels to an extent who themselves have varied standards. However, I believe them when they say that even ugly women don't want to sleep with or have relationships with them and for that to even happen, they have to maximize their looks, personality, character, and possibly career. I see why they would hate that: to go through so much change and maximization to get an ugly woman who is mediocre and does not put an equivalent amount of maximization into her looks, personality, character, and career. I do know some ugly guys in relationships with ugly women, but I pity their relationships because their partners are not really interested in touching them. Simply put, an unattractive or average looking man is not only unattractive and average looking to hot and average looking women, but to ugly and fat women as well. No amount of showering and personality is going to make an equivalently ugly women wet.

There are incels who have personalities and character better than most people. I know a guy who is incredibly hilarious, witty, honorable, humble, and very intelligent. Basically, a very maximized individual in nearly all non-[physical categories. He also showers and dresses well, but is ugly and has no interest from women whatsoever. To be average looking and be a man is to be unattractive; it is "meh, nothing to look at or pursue. The majority of women will not view average looking men as sexual beings worthy of hot sex they would give to "Chads" and so they are not desperate to accept their advances. The average man cannot have sex with the average looking woman because she is not eager to have sex with or turned on by average looking and unattractive men and advances by them are rejected. It will take a lot of hard work and money to entice an average looking woman to sleep with an average looking or unattractive man. And all sex that is given is merely an exchange of perceived responsibility. For example, an a

The problem is a confusion about entitlement and fairness, lies and exaggerations perpetuated by society that contributed to fooling oneself, as well as possible accidental self delusion from a lack of introspection and reflection. Women in the past were not a. belligerent and b. sexually emancipated sluts with exposed bodies and c. had traditional morals. Incels of the past were not constantly bombarded by hot women with "loose morals" and women in the past did not engage in repeated attacks and emasculation against men ("male tears", "fragile masculinity"). The female body and shape was largely concealed and men and women were segregated. So, incels in the past were placid and content. Today, the average man is visually assaulted by women parading their exposed bodies everywhere, from college campuses to grocery stores, the streets, and the beaches. Hot women with a gun to the head of the male ego and self esteem cannot be escaped. At the same time, men put more work and effort into bettering themselves than women. It takes very little for a woman to be considered attractive/sexy and worthy of being fucked or relationship'd, whereas men have to undergo various maximization of physical and non-physical qualities while also being financially competitive. Generally speaking, men can find beauty and sexual attraction even in ugly women whereas women cannot find beauty and sexual attraction in ugly men. Men can find skinny, round, tall, short, overweight, fat, poor, rich women attractive. Most men consider it debatable whether a woman is average looking or hot whereas women are united in their belief that most men are unattractive or ugly and not worthy of fucking.

SkookumTree · 2018-05-07T17:42:21+00:00

Every barrel's got to have a bottom. The sorriest chump caveman, if he lived, quite possibly became a shaman. It's rather significant that shamans in many tribes were celibate. Taking the guys and gals that just can't hack it in the real world and turning them into religious specialists is something that's as old as the hills.

KrispyMcSockington · 2018-05-07T17:42:46+00:00

So, this is innate and not the result of our social programming, as per the feminist doctrine?

He is not suffering from toxic masculinity, which has led to misogynistic ideas and expressions?

Reven311 · 2018-05-07T21:49:22+00:00

The gap between the percentage of men and women who never reproduce has gotten much wider. This implies a dramatic increase in hypergamy.

The share of men who are childless at age 45 rose from 14 percent in 1985 to 23 percent in 2013. The share of women who had not become mothers by age 45 increased from 10 percent in 1985 to 13 percent in 2013.

http://sciencenordic.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/300x/Barnloshet-statistikk-2_None.ipadFull.jpg

http://sciencenordic.com/quarter-norwegian-men-never-father-children

crackrocksteady7 · 2018-05-07T16:37:15+00:00

I think what we're seeing is the fattification of America has turned their potential matches into unfuckable blobs that they can't get their dicks hard for, where they previously would have gotten plain looking healthy bmi girls (who are now 7+/10 minimum by default)

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2018-05-07T15:50:30+00:00

But Crumb himself isn't an incel. might have come up that way. But he married twice and has kids. I presume they have some sex, since his current wife (whom he's been married to for almost 40 years) is his rough SMV/RMV equivalent and is herself an underground comic artist.

I agree the story you linked to illustrates the incel mindset and appearance. Yes, the story is familiar - it's literally the beta "why they like hot assholes and they don't like nice, kind, affable, friendly me?" It also shows in candid fashion the sexual predilections and frustrations unattractive men experience .

I think feminism exacerbates and aggravates the incel problem, though, which is something that you didn't address.

SinisterIntentions24 · 2018-05-07T17:49:28+00:00

Idk how relevant this is but I’ll put in my .02.

‘Character’ as you say it is a construct, meanings that it is a concept based off of smaller less complex concepts. So your use of character is a very broad concept that could be broken down in many ways. But my argument is that the more we understand social psychology, the more we are finding that personality is formed by social interactions via positive and negative reinforcement and some punishment. Meaning that these incels are more products of circumstance and not this free will or ‘character’ you refer to. They never had those positive traits reinforced enough for them to become part of their character. If I were to take a gander at these incels, I would say through positive punishment they have learned helplessness and become bitter.

Feminism shames masculinity, we have seen it countless times. Whether it’s our young males in the classroom being shamed for not being able to sit still, or when an unsure male approaches a feminist they are attracted to and get shut down. Feminist mothers are positively punishing their boys for their boyish masculinity, not reinforcing those behaviors. Ironically those behaviors punished in boys are what could manifest themselves into attractive traits in their later life. Instead they go through life in fear of punishment, maybe they get bitter, maybe they go blue pill and waste the rest of their life. Whatever they do, they are products of society, not born with this ‘beta-character’ trait. Feminism and several other factors are what dug this grave.

Five_Decades · 2018-05-07T23:02:28+00:00

They've always been around but the internet changed everything.

For one, incel communities can sprout up and give birth to the worst aspects of the incel community.

For another, the internet has resulted in women's standards for men going up, pushing more men into incel territory.

So now there are more incels and they are easier to radicalize, both due to the internet.

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Jcart105 · 2018-05-08T03:52:35+00:00

Incels didn't necessarily always exist, but this is largely due to majority of men being slaughtered in combat and/or dying from scavenging resources and hunting. As a result, these mechanisms helped weed out weaker and inferior men, and the remaining men were able to live very prosperously as most of their competition want neutralized. However, humans eventually did adopt social monogamy as it produced the best environment for children — men were still weeded out by war, but hypergamy played a very significant role from there on too, which also weeded out exceedingly inferior men as well (even in an environment where seemingly all living men were guaranteed reproduction).

Women have evolved to fall in 'love' with the conquering rapist who just killed their husband.

Gravel_Roads · 2018-05-08T08:39:37+00:00

Yes, incels have always been amongst us. If there are more now than there ever used to be, it's probably due to women no longer being dependent on marriage to succeed in life. Especially now that the internet exists and many men have confirmed out loud that they are, indeed, just as unpleasant to be around as they appear. Women have stopped being pressured to give infinite benefit of the doubt. If a person tells you they're an asshole, believe them and move on.

[deleted] · 2018-05-08T13:40:40+00:00

And "Skutch" was handsome and badboyish while "r. crumb" looks completely unattractive. Bonus, no amount of physical training will turn a Crumb into a Skutch (side note, these sound better than incel & chad).

Again personality is in large part influenced by that person's life experiences.

One can't act like a badboy if deep down he's got no chance of winning most conflicts regardless of looks.

Faking it works for some men but not all.

Mellon2 · 2018-05-08T14:31:41+00:00

Just another wave that cannot evolve with us. Natural selection

Chaddeus_Rex · 2018-05-08T16:39:59+00:00

Nah. Incels are a result of a feminist primary social order where a wife or lover is not guarenteed through arranged marriage, religion or the social order. I can guarentee if the Van Attacker or Elliot Roger got their dick sucked at least once a year, no attacks would have happened.

TwentyX4 · 2018-05-08T21:36:48+00:00

Interestingly, I remember a quote from R.Crumb talking about how he never had much luck with women... and then he said that things changed once he got famous. Kind of am interesting observation on the value of status.

[deleted] · 2018-05-07T17:38:04+00:00

Lol no

statsfodder · 2018-05-07T21:38:04+00:00

"he has similar "misogynistic" revenge fantasies and in the end spends the rest of his life taking his early bad experiences out on all women after he is able to get them because of his fame"

Funny that when women take out their bad experiences on other men they are cheered, revered and "empowered" but when men do it they are misogynistic assholes... "equality"

daveofmars · 2018-05-07T22:44:30+00:00

Crumb wasn't an incel. He had sex. He even had ex wives, and kids. At first, his comics were adored by feminists because it presented women without the glitz and glamour of the pussy pedestal.

But if Crumb was anything, he was a neurotic nice guy with an amazon fetish, his psychological profile created in part by an overbearing mother.

Reven311 · 2018-05-08T00:04:58+00:00

YES it is a result of feminism.

PPD-Angel · 2018-05-07T15:26:41+00:00

Do you want this to be a CMV or a discussion? Your title is not neutral, but the content is.

DrySpellCel · 2018-05-08T00:21:41+00:00

Incels have been around forever, but feminism certainly has made the issue worse. Why? Because feminists see simply going up to a strange woman and saying "Hi" as harassment. Remember that infamous video they released of that skank walking around the Bronx getting compliments? Yeah. Fuck off feminism. You have blood on your hands now.

Title	the incel phenomenon is not a result of feminism but of personality and character, incels have always been with us
Author	Atlas_B_Shruggin
Upvotes	38
Comments	210
Date	May 7, 2018 3:24 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8hob8j/the_incel_phenomenon_is_not_a_result_of_feminism/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-incel-phenomenon-is-not-a-result-of-feminism.262567 https://theredarchive.com/post/262567

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