#If I were a boy - I'd be able to make choices about my own body

Firstly, different kinds of sex are more risky than others. Vaginal sex is the least risky penetrative sex there is unless you count oral. The difference in risk between being the receptive anal partner in homosexual penetration and the active partner is vaginal penetration is at least one order of magnitude, if I remember correctly.

Secondly, there's prevalence. 56% percent of the people living with HIV in the US are gay men, and they account for 60% of new infections even though we are only 2% of the population. 20% of gay men are HIV positive and half of them don't know it. That means that on average, if you have sex with 10 partners, 2 of them will be positive and one of them will have no idea so won't be on antiretroviral treatments.

In comparison, only about 5% people living with HIV in the US are straight white men, unless you count those that acquired the virus through intravenous drug use.

To further put things into perspective: how many women have you slept with in the last month?

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In the same way thay it isn't fair to force a woman to either abort or carry a child to term, it isn't fair to force men to pay for a child they never wanted.

For women, consent to sex isn't consent to parenthood. For men, consent to sex is consent to parenthood. Doesn't matter if the reason she got pregnant is due to lack of caution, condom failure, or intentional sabotage of birth control.

That's not fucking fair and you know it.

Nobody here I'd claiming pregnancy or abortion are easy. We just don't think 9 months of risk to the mother should mean that men have to pay for 18 years for a kid he never asked for and tried to take precautions against having.

You're acting like we've never considered the physical toll that pregnancy takes. We have considered it and still don't think that a man should have to pay for the unilateral decisions made by a woman he had sex with once.

We have the same set of facts that you do. We're not ignoring what you've said, but we don't agree that no choices and indentured servitude for men and giving women the power to force men to give them free money is fair.

It clearly isn't fair, in fact. If you don't think so, then you aren't thinking at all.

Forcing men to pay for women's unilateral decisions sucks. If you spent even one second thinking about it from a man's perspective you would realize that.

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Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Sure I could. Since I'm literally stating the truth I could be much further from it. Like saying Santa couldn't be further from the north pole.

I'm just saying when you fuck a woman, you are definitely risking impregnating her.

And when she fucks a man she knows pregnancy is a possible outcome.

Which, at that point, is her decision. If she goes through with the pregnancy, then you're gonna have a child. You may have to provide for that child.
So, if you're not into that situation, don't fuck her.

It's her decision because we as a society have decided to allow her this decision.

We could give him a decision too. Or take hers away.

Then you can argue for women to have an opt out and listen to "well if she didn't want to be forced in to parenthood why did she have sex?!?!"

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If I were a boy, I'd be expected to take responsibility for my actions. I'd register for selective services when I turn 18. I'd pay child support for children who may or may not be mine, whether I wanted them or not, to women who can choose at any time to prevent me from seeing said children. I'd live a shorter life, would be more likely to end my life, and would face a harsher life in general where I am more likely to be assaulted, murdered, be homeless and suffer greater consequences of my nation going to war. I'd have to work to provide for myself instead of always having a fallback of depending on a man or men.

I could go on. But it always cracks me up to see the most provided for, pandered to, and privileged group of people on the planet (Western women, Americans specifically) complaining about how hard their lives are. Good times.

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This is actually pretty simple: 1: forced abortions, if you can do it without any procedure, then its entirely possible that an individual is pressured into it 2: almost everything costs money, and this is a way of measuring how much is spent on it, and allows for adequate preparation and planning (imagine if they only had enough to perform half the countries abortions...) 3: it ensures thorough thought on the issue, many people jump to conclusions and decisions etc. this causes people to think before they act. 4: many countries disallow abortion after a certain period, this therefore means we have to know when the abortions are performed so as to ensure the law is adhered to.

to put it simply, why do we have procedure for anything? to make sure it works as well as is possible, its not to oppress them but to ensure everything is done in a well thought out, orderly manner, where all issues are considered.

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Perhaps not. I would restate that the procedure is very objective:

A growing presence or growth is in utero of the Carrier. (Recognized as potentially very impactful on the health/life/social implications of the carrier)
A choice made to discontinue the process in utero is decided upon as treatment.
Treatment is objectively successful.
There is no more growth in utero. Carrier status is terminated.

This is the objective scenario, and unlikely to be disputed.

What I might be lacking is your subjective argument. In what ways is abortion subjective to you? Is it whether what we're doing is killing a life or not killing a life? Or perhaps whether a carrier should be able to desist in carrying as a choice made by the individual carrier... can it involve others? You stated it was subjective. I just desire to know what part of it is subjective to you, and perhaps others.

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The principle is the same. Even at the expense of another human life, you cannot be compelled to compromise your bodily integrity against your will.

That is different because you are not the cause of their condition, nor would you be directly harming them with a negative action.

If a person agreed to give a kidney but interfered during the procedure and caused the recipent's death, they are responsible for that death.

A mother should not be required to provide her body, but she is required not to kill even if that obligation may require her body.

An equally ridiculous requirement would be providing a mansion for your kids. Obviously it is not something parents have to do, but they do need to provide shelter which means that you cannot let your kids die outside if a mansion is all you own just because providing a mansion would be a ridiculous requirement.

Likewise, the requirement is not derived from their right to another's body but more of their right not to have spikes driven through their brain's or other methods of brutal killings even if the result of being gestated is the same.

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Then it should be zero problems with you if we call it Matriarchy, right?

I mean, if the word is just used to signify that we are against selected traditions, and it has nothing to do at all with disparaging men, it should follow that if we flipped it around and called it matriarchy, it should still signify that we are gainst the same toxic traditions, but at the same time, it could safe some feelings. I mean, that is, if it was not really meant to disparage males, that is.

Also, I wouzkld argue that circumsicion today in america has maybe 15 % to do with brahamic religions.

It would be like saying, the westboro baptist church are modell christians.

Instead, I would say the american flavor of circumsicion is born out of a peculiar sidestrain of american evangelical thinking, which, with the help of proponents like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Harvey_Kellogg#Views_on_sexuality , argued that masturbation was a sin, and the only way to stop it was to permanently surgically remove/damage the pleasure centers in boys and girls.

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Perhaps because babies born to mothers with FGM I, II, and III die at a rate 15, 32, and 55% higher than babies born to mothers without FGM, resulting in an additional 10-20 deaths per 1000 infants in Africa.

Maybe it's because it's far more painful and often performed close to puberty without anesthesia.

Or it could be because there's a 70% increase in postpartum hemorrhaging.

And then there's the fact that the procedure is far more extensive, often performed without antibiotics, and results in death between 1% and 30% of the time depending on the conditions under which it is performed.

Assuming everything goes well and neither the girl nor her future children are affected, she will make sex unenjoyable for up to 50% of women (depends on the procedure performed as well as post-op treatment).

The similarities between FGM and male circumcision are limited to the fact that they are operations on sex organs that are often done without consent. Beyond that, they are completely different. They differ in their risks, in their painfulness, and in their impact on people's lives.

If it was a minor operation with a low risk of complications and limited impact on quality of life, the movement against it wouldn't have the same level of popularity.

You do your cause a disservice by equating the two. Not everything is a contest to see who is worse off.

[–]Eryemil 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Firstly, you're comparing the complications of rural female circumcision in Africa to medical circumcision in the west. That is so dishonest that I hope you didn't think to differentiate.

These are complications of traditional male African circumcision.

Every year in South Africa, circumcision ceremonies leaves hundreds of young men injured and dozens dead. We have the most data out of South Africa for obvious reasons. We have no fucking clue about what happens in the rest of tribal Africa.

Maybe it's because it's far more painful and often performed close to puberty without anesthesia.

Do you have any evidence that it is more painful? As to the age, there's no meaningful difference between circumcision as performed on boys or girls in African cultures.

Assuming everything goes well and neither the girl nor her future children are affected, she will make sex unenjoyable for up to 50% of women (depends on the procedure performed as well as post-op treatment).

There's virtually no evidence that FGC affects female sexual enjoyment or function. I believe it does, and there's good rhetorical arguments for it, but of all studies done (and I can only cite four off the top of my head) three of them showed no difference in sexual satisfaction, arousal or ability to achieve orgasm. There is, ironically, more evidence of the negative impact of genital cutting on men than there is of for women. Whatever conclusions you've arrived here, you've done so with very little evidence. You're willing to believe that circumcision ruins women's sex lives without any evidence yet I strongly doubt you've even read a single paper or article on how it affects men.

Beyond that, they are completely different. They differ in their risks, in their painfulness, and in their impact on people's lives.

Bullshit. How different is FGC in Indonesia from MGC in, the US? Both done in clinical settings, both destroy the prepuce, (which is not really comparable anyway as the male foreskin is more functional than the clitoral hood, and both are done on infants.

Thank you for giving me a chance to flex my brain. It's been ages since I've engaged in an in-depth discussion on circumcision on the internet. I didn't attach citations to my hard claims above but I can if you'd like. Since you quoted plain numbers to me I thought you'd accept the same.

[–]GoatBased 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm comparing the circumcision that actually occurs in women to the circumcision that actually occurs in men. That is not dishonest, especially when the topic of FGM is brought up in response to a discussion about circumcision of western men, where complication occur as low as 0.2-0.4% of the time. Even in Africa, where persistent complications occur more frequently, they are still far less common than those associated with FGM.

FGC in Indonesia is a comparatively minor problem to FGM in Africa, not due to the setting in which it is performed, but due to the technique and extent. It's generally classified as Type IV and does not usually involve excising the prepuce or clitoris. While opponents of circumcision usually oppose all forms of FGC and MGC, the focus of their work tends to be FGM Types I-III because they pose the most severe risks and have the largest impact.

As to sexual pleasure, which is by far the least compelling argument against FGM, there absolutely is evidence that FGM (esp. of type II and III) can affect sexual pleasure. In some cases sex becomes so painful that it is impossible.

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The foreskin is certainly more functional than any part of the external female genitalia save for the clitoris and even that is arguable as the female orgasm is not directly involved in the reproductive process.

The foreskin is the most fine-touch sensitive part of the penis. In fact, it contains practically all of the fine-touch mechanoreceptors in the penis so excising it destroys the penis ability to perceive small textures and rapid changes in texture, the same way the tip of our fingers do, which is what allows, for example, blind people to read braille.
The foreskin is attached to one of the two most erogenous parts of the penis, which is also usually stripped away during circumcision, the frenulum. It is as least as sexually responsible as the corona of the head of the penis, probably more so.
The foreskin is two-layered, an outer layer composed of normal skin and an inner layer of mucous membrane. The internal structure of the penis is, like most mucous membranes, fragile and vulnerable to damage from friction and dehydration. On healthy mucous membranes, nerve endings are surface lying; in damaged ones they are buried under layers of dead skin cells. This is why circumcised men can stand having their glandes dry and rubbing against their underwear all day, it reduces how much stimulation is manages to get through to the nerve endings.
Circumcision mostly destroys the natural mechanical function of the penis from an object that can almost frictionlessly displace almost its entire length to one where there is friction at every point of contact. Not only is the surface area being stimulated smaller and devoid of specialised and erogenous bits, the penis itself loses the ability to stimulate itself. For all purposes the foreskin function like an in-built fleshlight.

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What you consider to be the worst type of female genital cutting, where the external genitalia are excised and the vaginal opening is sewn together into a narrow opening, is the rarest form of FGC outside of some forms of Type IV—which is defined as any kind of damage or injury to the female genitalia.

It is dishonest of you to compare male genital cutting as practised in the United States to infibulation. Why not compare it instead to subincision, another form of MGC where the penis is split open on the underside along the urethra? It is, at best, as damaging as the worst kind of FGC and arguably worse.

Genital mutilation exists in a spectrum of severity for both sexes. Some forms of female genital mutilation are less damaging that male foreskin and frenulum excision and some forms of male genital mutilation are worse or equivalent to infibulation. If you were to arrange all forms of genital mutilation on a list from most to least severe both male and female practises would be equally distributed, and more importantly, what you call circumcision would be around the middle of the list.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I get it, you can't take this choice back, but you also don't get to post ...

I don't see the big issue.

What you mean is, "I've never experienced a foreskin, so I can't possibly understand what is missing, or what I've robbed by son of. Since he'll never know, it doesn't matter."

Brief Primer - Video - Elephant in the hospital

I don't like writing these posts because they seem like an attack, but I've cited everything I've said so it's factually accurate. It's important to dispel the ignorance which is the idea that removing body parts from infants is normal. The majority of the worlds men are intact. The foreskin has a tremendous amount of functions all of which are lost when it's removed.

It decreases sexual pleasure and orgasm intensity, removes specialized erogenous tissue, and made masturbation less pleasurable for life.

You've increased the odds of his female partners experiencing painful sex, while making the penis far less sensitive.

Also, since he was cut probably without pain relief, his brain likely rewired from the trama, increasing his odds for a variety of mental disorders.

Here you can read the policy positions of Canada, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, the Netherlands, and the UK.

Removing body parts from an infant is not normal. Lot's of parents regret this choice. The blame will always rest with the medical community for failing to get informed consent, but ... you can help other couples and if you have more children, not repeat the same mistake.

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If I have another son, he'll probably be cut too.

Probably is a start. I hope you give pause to this false one-sided choice next time around without making flippant jokes about it. Obviously you cannot undo what was done but you can be a voice to other parents. You have access to this community. It's not an accident it's anti-circumcision.

I have a problem with it, because it's not your body. Your son is no more your property then mine, or anyone else's. He's in your care. When he's 18 he'll have another 60+ years to spend with the body parts he'll have been fortunate enough for you to let him keep. If he was a girl, thankfully this choice would be out of your (or your doctors) hands.

Unfortunately, we (I'm talking about a cutting-culture, not Europe) live in a society, where the champion of your future kids sexual bodily integrity is some random guy on the Internet, and against his own parents current wishes. Someone you probably hate, who makes you deeply unset. Maybe these words will give you pause.

There are many men deeply upset they were cut. I am one of them. Hopefully your kid won't be one of them.

My son is uncut. I didn't pay a doctor the $637 to remove part of his penis. I didn't take care of a bloody penis. I didn't hear my son scream, then do nothing.

My wife didn't deal with bonding difficulties from circumcision. My son didn't have problems sleeping from the pain of circumcision.

We don't do anything special to clean him. There is nothing to do. You don't retract the foreskin on an infant, it retracts at about age 10. It's just a tube of skin that keeps his penis protected from urine and feces. I can't imagine why you'd want to cut the skin from the penis, then expose an open wound to urine and feces, but I'm fortunate to have this knowledge now. I understand it's purpose.

When my kid grows up, he'll eventually ask about it, and I'll tell him, he has the choice I was never afforded. If he wants his dick skin removed, I'll pay for it and he'll have the benefit of full anesthesia. I'm betting he won't, because ... most uncut guys do not opt to have the best part of their penis removed. He'll always have the option though. It's wonderful to have control over your own body.

You don't have to keep posting. You don't need to defend your choice or circumcision status to anyone. It's done. I just want to share my experience and knowledge so you can't claim why you "don't understand why its a big issue."

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Im going to try the unpopular opinion: Women have been seen to have no agency. That is why laws about this thing have existed; to protect women from "ravenous defiling caddy bounders" of men. We now believe women are equal.

Since women are equals, in terms of agency for their own life, it is women and women alone who should be responsible for getting pregnant. If its their body, they have complete control over what goes in it, and therefore they should have complete responsibility for it as well.

It'd be like if an adult woman bought an earring, poked it through her own ear, and then sued the earring manufacturer for infection afterward. She made her own choice of what was going into her body, knew the possible risks and outcomes, and yet is putting someone else on the hook for it.

If a man has no rights concerning what is in her body, why should he have any responsibility for it, either?

All pregnancy issues need to be solely in women's hands. Men cannot decide what to do with a woman's body because it is hers. If we allow abortion because it a woman's body, then that means that she's responsible for her body, and thus no guy should be. The fetus counts as her body for abortion purposes, it counts as its own life for purposes of a man attempting to abort it without the woman's consent (he gets charged with attempted feoticide), and its her choice if she doesn't abort.

Once the sperm is given to a woman, it is a gift she can do with as she pleases. Because she literally owns the sperm, she is using something she owns to get pregnant in her own body, which she also owns.

The logic is undeniable. Men should have zero responsibility for any pregnancy, because it is her choice what she puts in her body. She could reject sex. She could abort. She could be on the pill. She is getting a gift of sperm and then allowing that sperm to pass without spermicide into an egg that is still viable and not chemically neutralized.

Male responsibility laws for a woman's body, if she chooses to allow it to grow and shoot out of her vaginal canal to become a separate body from the woman's, need to come to an end.

She bears 100% responsibility for her choice. The man acted, but it was all her choice to have a dick in her, to accept a sperm donation, and to allow pregnancy to occur.

[–]Splendidbiscuit 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy -1 points0 points1 point 10 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Hopefully it should be obvious that the court rules in favour of what is in the best interests of the new born baby.

Why should that be obvious, though? A baby is less potential in a society than a ready to work adult man or woman. They're a loss until they start producing something of value, which takes ages. I guess you could call them investments, but what if they get in a car accident, get cancer, or otherwise become a drain on the system?

This is a completely utilitarian viewpoint. If you're basing your value of "do whats right for kids before adults", then you're making a moral judgement, which is based on what exactly? Very recent historical reasoning? The hubris of wanting a genetic legacy, mascarading as morality of "think of the children"? Artists of most ages lived solely because they either dedicated a work or created a work that was completely of their sponsor. Religious artworks did it, secular ones did it. They want to live on through their religion via art, or through their own image cast in art. It is this desire to be recognized beyond death, either as a group or an individual. which gave artists their daily bread.

Children do the same thing for adults. They create a legacy, especially a genetic one. There is a shit ton of reason for people to desire children to be the most protected class, simply because of our genetics. The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins comes to mind.

Again, I have to ask why it should be obvious that the court rules in favor. Is it because children's lives are more valuable? If so, who made that universal decision for us, so that we just have to recite it without considering whether it is true or not?

There is no such thing as human rights, because humans had to die to try to get those rights for others. The natural state of man has no rights, no entitlements. Even in the U.S. where it is claimed you have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it is not claimed that you have the right to be GIVEN those things, just that no one takes it away from you. You don't have the right to be given a caring mother or father. You don't have the right to be given money to be able to eat daily. You don't have the right to be given anything beyond shelter, food, and the cheapest clothing available by your parents. If you aren't given those things by your parents, you go into a system which can make your life as a child even worse, from tearing you away from what you know, to giving you to abusive foster parents, or being stuck in limbo.

The only way we can argue for doing what is best for the fetus is by claiming that it at least has a right to life, as any other human. Anything else regarding children as more valuable than women or men is just blind social parroting.

[–]Splendidbiscuit 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Why should that be obvious, though? A baby is less potential in a society than a ready to work adult man or woman. They're a loss until they start producing something of value, which takes ages. I guess you could call them investments, but what if they get in a car accident, get cancer, or otherwise become a drain on the system?

I don't think the legal system takes into account the contribution to society potential that a 1 month old baby makes, rather, who is the victim(s) in all this and what should be done about the situation.

This is a completely utilitarian viewpoint. If you're basing your value of "do whats right for kids before adults", then you're making a moral judgement, which is based on what exactly?

A similar one to 'you can kill someone if they were in the middle of an attempt to kill you' I think. Someone died, someone killed. Make a decision about how to judge.

Very recent historical reasoning?

Hopefully, the more recent the moral in most cases, we become better societies overtime.

The hubris of wanting a genetic legacy, mascarading as morality of "think of the children"?

You are turning an argument about who to favour out of three people into the "think of the children" which is so often misused.

Artists of most ages lived solely because they either dedicated a work or created a work that was completely of their sponsor. Religious artworks did it, secular ones did it. They want to live on through their religion via art, or through their own image cast in art. It is this desire to be recognized beyond death, either as a group or an individual. which gave artists their daily bread.

If it weren't for the fact you quoted my comment I'd honestly believe you were replying to someone else about something completely different. None of this is relevant to whether parents should be compelled to support their children until they are deemed of independent age.

Children do the same thing for adults. They create a legacy, especially a genetic one. There is a shit ton of reason for people to desire children to be the most protected class, simply because of our genetics. The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins comes to mind.

Again something that I can't work out how it could be relevant, this about how the law should worded, what laws there should be, and what exceptions to those laws should be allowed.

Again, I have to ask why it should be obvious that the court rules in favor. Is it because children's lives are more valuable? If so, who made that universal decision for us, so that we just have to recite it without considering whether it is true or not?

It is because of how everything surrounding children and parents must be worded in order to have a semi functioning system.

About whether the way things are is true or not, in the moral sense, their are no objective morals, we decide as a society what should be and shouldn't be and try and work with that, we improve on this view over time. It isn't true that parents shouldn't be allowed to leave their 6 month old baby on the streets, it isn't true that a man shouldn't be allowed to rape a woman then not be legally liable to be compelled to pay child support, it isn't true that a women shouldn't rape a man then be able to cut him out of fatherhood. Nothing is true or false, we make it up as a best fit. Personally I think it is rather clear cut though in this case.

There is no such thing as human rights, because humans had to die to try to get those rights for others. The natural state of man has no rights, no entitlements. Even in the U.S. where it is claimed you have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, it is not claimed that you have the right to be GIVEN those things, just that no one takes it away from you. You don't have the right to be given a caring mother or father. You don't have the right to be given money to be able to eat daily. You don't have the right to be given anything beyond shelter, food, and the cheapest clothing available by your parents. If you aren't given those things by your parents, you go into a system which can make your life as a child even worse, from tearing you away from what you know, to giving you to abusive foster parents, or being stuck in limbo.

Long winded but yeah.

The only way we can argue for doing what is best for the fetus is by claiming that it at least has a right to life, as any other human. Anything else regarding children as more valuable than women or men is just blind social parroting.

So... you agree. I really wish I hadn't slogged all the way through that.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'll try to simplify it.

There's no reason to judge the child's needs as more important than the mother or father.

The only reason people do, is because of moralizing that children are somehow more special.

There is a biological basis for people wanting to go further for children, which is exemplified in people buying artwork of themselves. Artwork parallels the same reason people value children so highly; it is something of themselves which lasts into the future. You think that doesn't have any relevance, but it the human need to live on through something else which pushes people to have children or massive corporations named after them or artwork. Now it should make more sense as to why people would value children, especially their own, more than a random adult's life.

Why should it be obvious that they rule for the child's needs over a mother or father?

[–]Splendidbiscuit 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

There's no reason to judge the child's needs as more important than the mother or father.

More important no, more urgent certainly, people can live on a reduced salary, a child can't grow properly without substantial food. It is someones problem and the way things are now are better then anyway I can think of them.

The only reason people do, is because of moralizing that children are somehow more special.

Unable to walk or talk or lift their head up, not special.

There is a biological basis for people wanting to go further for children, which is exemplified in people buying artwork of themselves. Artwork parallels the same reason people value children so highly; it is something of themselves which lasts into the future. You think that doesn't have any relevance, but it the human need to live on through something else which pushes people to have children or massive corporations named after them or artwork. Now it should make more sense as to why people would value children, especially their own, more than a random adult's life.

I still think your conflating things which shouldn't be conflated.

Why should it be obvious that they rule for the child's needs over a mother or father?

Because again, we don't want the thing to die when the sacrifice been asked for is a reduction in someones living standard.

I'm trying to keep things practical. What laws would you eliminate, or change, or add if you had a magic wand and could do anything to make this situation better in your view?

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

a child can't grow properly without substantial food.

And this is not a right.

I still think your conflating things which shouldn't be conflated.

The reason people value the lives of children above the lives of adults is instinct based; the urge to protect your legacy. People always find some way to project themselves into the future. They sink lots of money into artworks for themselves in order to accomplish this, else roman leaders wouldn't get statues made. The whole point is that people have a drive to live on through something else, and children are the most easily created and most like yourself. Of course you'd want them to live more than a random stranger, because if the choice is one of them dying, you'll save your genetic material. It is your projection into the future.

This book should be read almost as though it were science fiction. It is designed to appeal to the imagination. But it is not science fiction: it is science. Cliche or not, 'stranger than fiction' expresses exactly how I feel about the truth. We are survival machines-robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes. This is a truth which still fills me with astonishment. Though I have known it for years, I never seem to get fully used to it. One of my hopes is that I may have some success in astonishing others.

The truth is that all examples of child-protection and parental care, and all associated bodily organs, milk- secreting glands, kangaroo pouches, and so on, are examples of the working in nature of the kin- selection principle. The critics are of course familiar with the widespread existence of parental care, but they fail to understand that parental care is no less an example of kin selection than brother/ sister altruism. When they say they want examples, they mean that they want examples other than parental care, and it is true that such examples are less common.

[–]mwobuddy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]stitchadee 12 points13 points14 points 10 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

I am intrigued by the discussions here as a woman who is 6+ months pregnant (happily planned), pro-choice, and planning on not circumcising my son. My husband and I strongly believe that both genders deserve choice when it comes to one's bodies, which is why we will let our son choose how he wants his penis to look and function, despite the fact that my husband and all the males in both our families were circumcised.

What baffles me is the anti-abortion sentiment I'm reading here. To focus solely on the body of the fetus is only part of the picture, as pregnancy and childbirth dramatically impacts the mother's body and puts her at risk of illness and death. I am currently experiencing debilitating chronic pain as a result of problems with my anatomy, the hormones (relaxin) produced by my pregnancy, and the weight and strain of my rapidly growing child. Even after pouring time, money, and lots of agony into doctor's appointments, physical therapy, and other treatments, I can barely walk, cannot sit for long periods of time, and can only get two hours of sleep at a time. I hate being pregnant and have been thrown into bouts of prenatal depression as a result of this chronic pain. While I love my future son and my husband and I believe that this will eventually be worth it, it is not fair to discount the physical toll and possible dangers that women face during this process. I am just incredibly grateful that I haven't faced life-threatening complications such as pre-eclampsia - if you want to hear some scary stories about the dangers of childbearing, feel free to read some of the emergency stories in /r/babybumps

I think fathers should absolutely get an opinion about fatherhood, but ultimately, if my body is at risk of harm and/or death, no one has the right to make that call for me. Time to brace for the downvotes......

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 10 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]stitchadee 9 points10 points11 points 10 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

For sure! If a mother is hell bent on carrying and keeping a child despite a father's objections, I don't necessarily believe that he should be on the hook for parental duties or support for the next eighteen years. If, from the get-go, he wants to waive his parental rights, so be it. It takes two to tango, and if accidental/unwanted pregnancy occurs, I believe both are at fault. Male birth control would definitely make this tricky topic easier on the male side.

However, nothing in life is black or white. My husband is heading into fatherhood willingly and with excitement, but, if years down the line he's like "nope, I'm out", I would fully expect his financial and parental support. I am appalled by men who support or even push for a pregnancy and then bail at a later date. In these cases, women are often left with the bulk of the burden. Equal rights about one's body, equal responsibility for parenting...that's my mantra.

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What it boils down to is this - if a woman wants to go through the trials and dangers of pregnancy but the man does not want to be a father, fine. He shouldn't be forced to be a father against his will. However, if a woman does not want to put her body or life at risk, men should not be able to force her to do so. There are many here lamenting about a forced choice with regards to harm to their body (circumcision), which I too am opposed to.

I understand that were talking about a fetus's life here, but even that is not black and white. While I have never had to terminate a pregnancy in my own life (kudos to sexual education, a family who didn't demonize sexuality, and responsible choices made by me and my partners), I am not opposed to the choice should a woman or couple need it. Abortion is not a simple issue - I feel quite differently about aborting a blastocyst of cells or barely formed embryo versus aborting my 26 month old fetus that responds to sound, is kicking away in my uterus at the moment, and could be viable outside of the womb. If you want to go into the whole "this ball of cells is holy because God made it happen" argument, you've lost me.

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How do you jack off without lube?

When the word "sensitive" is used in regards to your body, it's commonly associated with injury. Like your bruise is 'sensitive' to touch. Or a migraine makes you 'sensitive' to light. That sensitive is actually a negative. I would never describe my hands as "sensitive" even though they're the #1 sensory source for touch.

Disgressing. Uncircumsized penises are "sensitive" whereas circumsized penises are not. Outside of serios trauma there's nearly nothing you can do to hurt my penis that doesn't involve sharp objects (teeth). If you masturbate too frequently dry you will eventually rub yourself raw. In personal experience that's somewhere around 6 times in a single day or a dozen times across a couple days.

I fully believe this has a dramatic impact on my sex life. The first several times i had sex i wasn't even able to reach orgasm due to the radical reduction in friction. That went away quickly however i strongly believe it's a giant causation to why i can delay ejaculation by will power and last for extended periods of time. (When alcohol is involved, literally hours)

If i have any sons i definitely want them to inherit the same experience i have with sex.

[–]Kinbaku_enthusiast 1 point2 points3 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No sensitivity is not commonly associated with injury, it's associated with sensory perception and degrees to which you are able to sense them. Low sensitivity and you will only pick up loud signals and high sensitivity and you will even pick up soft signals.

(for a single datapoint: I have a foreskin and have never had problems with wanting to delay ejaculation.)

My penis is not sensitive at any time. That's because it's nicely protected by a foreskin. The only moment my penis is more sensitive than yours is the moment that the foreskin is retracted, something that happens naturally and continuously when you fuck someone without a condom.

Now I have no basis of comparison and I understand neither do you. I've read enough accounts of circumcised men to know that sex feels pretty awesome for you too.

But to call sensitivity during sex a negative, looks like a strange position to take. You'll feel more sexual energy when you're with a hotter girl, you feel more sexual energy when you're with a girl that you have an emotional connection with, you feel more sexual energy when you're with a girl for the first time and you feel more sexual sensation if you usually have a foreskin and it retracts naturally during sex.

If you want to look at the best side of being circumcised, good for you. It is pretty awesome to be able to delay orgasm. It leads to longer sex sessions.

I just hope you don't cut your kid, particularly since it's an unnecessary surgical procedure that has death rate that is not 0%

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I am pointing towards the philosophical, ethical debate and inferring logical consistency as well as deconstructing the slogan. Not making a statement either way. You do not understand. It is Pro choice vs. pro life. It is about the choices of the woman vs. the life of the unborn. Life in this context is made object of definition and when to protect it. The religious say at conception. In Europe it is mostly determined biologicaly at around 3 months as certain properties have developed. Some say when the baby is capable of living outside the womb, which is at 22-24 weeks. At that point it could be removed and kept alive in an incubator. To what degree does a woman's right to choice trump the life of the unborn? Remember there are TWO bodies. Woman's body, woman's choice just gives one answer. The answer being: Absolutely.

It's a slogan. Here's a slogan involving a body: Baby's body, baby's life. With two bodies being in conflict one cannot infer to one body and so make a logical case. There's not just one body.

We're not talking about getting a piercing or a tattoo. It is an ethical question of life. One involving choice. I understand the answer ignore the unborn baby, the woman's choice trumps it. It answers: the question of life is meaningless.

Only that is just one side of the choice vs life debate repeated and a fallacious argument when it diverts to the woman's body since it ignores another. That's the conflict. Of two bodies. Right of choice vs. right to and of life.

The slogan is evidently catchy, so it won't go away and everyone hates me for pointing it out. None of this changes the logic.

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Gonna finally call you out on your bullshit, human eggs can not be fertilized by "any sperm cell on the planet", and if you're going to take a "biological" standpoint, at least fucking understand biology. Not being able to live on its own? An infant can't live on its own or better yet my Grandmother with Alzheimer's - cant live on her own, has no conciousness, who honestly knows if she "felt pain" because she lost the ability to communicate. There is an inherent VALUE on her life, because she is a human, it would be wrong to euthanize her, or the mentally disabled, or infants or whatever. Please tell me you think there is a right to life?

Whats your point? I understand you're trying to say that SOME of the arguments being made by religious groups don't make sense, but you're deliberately misconstruing their messages - case and point being your claim that condoms are just as bad as early abortions, which is utter bullshit and I really don't understand how you came to that conclusion. (Killing a fetus/fertilized egg =/= never fertilizing an egg... its that simple, this isn't a matter of morals, you can't just jump through hoops to arrive at this logically dishonest point.)

I don't see how people don't value the right to life... are you a sociopath?

Prezygotic/Postzygotic barriers Chromosome counts Like Jesus I don't even know where to begin with that absurd claim.

Bodily autonomy>Right to life? Elaborate please.

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Title	#If I were a boy - I'd be able to make choices about my own body
Author	random60
Upvotes	2183
Comments	481
Date	December 26, 2015 10:02 AM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3y9ukd/if_i_were_a_boy_id_be_able_to_make_choices_about/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/if-i-were-a-boy-id-be-able-to-make-choices-about.964493 https://theredarchive.com/post/964493

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