What's missing from the incel conversation?

Speedy_KQ · 2022-12-12T14:33:33+00:00

I don't have a solution, but it would certainly help if people had a better understanding of how much emotional suffering these men are going through, and showed some compassion.

I really wish the frame around "incel" was less like "someone who hates women because he can't get his dick wet" and more like "someone struggling to hold his self-esteem together in the face of constant reinforcement of the idea that nobody finds him good enough."

I have a very low opinion of anyone who uses the term as an insult.

traveller1976 · 2022-12-12T14:56:52+00:00

This won't stop society and vindictive women from labeling every non compliant male an incel. There is absolutely zero sympathy for male mental health. Which means men must get the help they need without expecting sympathy from anyone. That's just the vicious world we live in now, where men are considered disposable.

TheTinMenBlog · 2022-12-12T13:30:45+00:00

Incels.

The newest hot button topic, and latest dragon to be slayed by our social justice warriors.

So what is to be said and done about incels?

Those who frequently become embroiled in misogynistic hate. And who live in often problematic online groups with words of “Chads” and “Stacies”.

I don’t know. But I do know, if we are to address the problem, we must ensure we’re starting from the right place.

Sadly, low-effort social media advocacy has already done its usual bit. Stirring poorly made assumptions into the pot, with broad stroke generalisations that simply do not fit the reality of the problem.

First off - incels are actually a diverse group in terms of sexual orientation, political affiliation, ethnic background and religion. No. They are not all right wing white men. In fact a new study shows incels are mostly left wing, and are disproportionally men of colour.

Most are non-violent, most are vulnerable and often traumatised, most are severely mentally unwell and yes, in need of help. And whilst newspapers splash words like ‘terrorist group’ on headlines, this is not what the experts are saying either.

These surprising and perhaps uncomfortable realisations show how we’ve already started off on the wrong foot, and are wholly unprepared to address the issue at hand.

Too soon we have reached for condemnation before understanding, too soon we have dehumanised and vilified what we don’t understand, and are scared of.

So here’s a question – for all our armies of virtuous mental health advocates, with all their care and compassion, why are so many refusing to go near what is clearly a crisis of mental health, albeit an extreme one?For mental health support is not just for those who want it, or even deserve it, but those who need it most.

~

Images by Rhett Noonan, Mitchel Lensink, Fabrice Villard, Emile Seguin from Unsplash.

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Craig Harper PhD

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CzechoslovakianJesus · 2022-12-12T20:31:36+00:00

People always go on about how "entitled" incels are, but if you ever actually looked at them you'd find nothing but pure, unfiltered self-hatred and suicidal ideation.

Rent_a_thug · 2022-12-12T16:07:11+00:00

When incels first became popular on the internet I was on tumblr and I whole heartedly joined in on shitting on them. I feel so guilty looking back at it now because the more I found out about them, the more I was exposed to the suffering they go through just being alive, and how the women (with victim complexes) vilifying them had much better lives. Feminism has turned into such a right-wing punch down movement it makes me sick

avarciousRutabega99 · 2022-12-12T17:01:45+00:00

Reddit claims to hate incels yet their lingo has permeated the dating conversation and the “pill” concept has multiple, active communities dedicated to it. See the red pill, the black pill, the purple pill, the pink pill. Even on the regular dating subs and some the beauty/fashion/self-improvement will you see terms used like looksmax and looksmatch. The desperation and fatalism isn’t as pronounced, or absent, but the concepts are there.

My apologies if “pill” communities have nothing to do with incels. I really try not to go down these rabbit holes, I just take bits and pieces of info that I feel are useful to me .

Bonko-chonko · 2022-12-12T13:42:58+00:00

How do you possibly determine who is and who isn't an "incel"? Is it anyone who is currently not engaged in a sexual relationship but would like to be? Or does it depend on self-identification/ engagement with incel communities?

As far as I can tell, it's most often used as a slur. It's like asking whether there are more black whores than there are white whores.

BKEnjoyer · 2022-12-12T20:56:55+00:00

Recognizing the issues guys have with socializing/romance/dating/sex is not a sign that you are a secret misogynist and guys (like me) who face those challenges need support and love, because everyone desires intimacy and deeper connection. We’re not inherently bad for having desires. And many of us have legitimate issues, whether it be mental health conditions or autism, that make socializing more difficult overall and we want to feel “normal.” We often have poor self-esteem and little to no confidence.

I don’t necessarily disagree with the advice that many feminists give to incels but it’s in such a mean and passive aggressive manner, there’s no sympathy or perspective taking

Charl3magne · 2022-12-13T00:46:02+00:00

The word "tragedy". It's absolutely fucking tragic how alienated these young men are becoming, and how much they are suffering.

I never counted myself an incel but I was close for a few years. I remember spending an afternoon looking for it on Reddit one day, but I was one of the lucky ones and managed to pull myself out of the downward spiral that I was on. I remember choking back tears as I asked my sister what was wrong with me.

The tragedy is that "incels" are human beings and they are suffering. People discuss them as some monolith or political entity with an agenda, when it's a collection of lost boys collectively writhing in pain. There are forces trying to shape them into something, but fuck talking about those evil charlatans, I wish we would just talk about these men and how they are suffering. I was a kid who'd chased a dream and gotten lost and then gotten lonely. I know how dark my days got, I can only imagine how much darker they would be for someone who fell in all the way.

All this awareness for mental health and we demonize the largest collective of men suffering. 75% have moderate to severe depression? I bet the other 25% have "mild". I didn't think I was depressed, but years later I know that was just a necessary lie I told myself.

The incel conversation isn't just missing pieces, it needs to be completely torn down and rebuilt with love at its very centre.

WeEatBabies · 2022-12-12T14:52:13+00:00

I've said it before and I'll say it again :

Calling someone an Incel is virging shaming, it is equivalent in pettiness as slut shaming!

Do not let feminists shame you into dating them, followed by child support and alimony! Stay single if that is what you wish to do, King!

Martijngamer · 2022-12-12T21:24:47+00:00

"The misogynistic current in the incel community is real, and it shouldn't be ignored"

Be that as it may, I doubt it's more prevalent than the misandrist current in the feminist community. But only one is recognized as a problem by society.

Tmesis26 · 2022-12-12T23:23:07+00:00

My 2c worth:

The issue I had was I was seeking validation externally. My self worth was literally tied to my ability to make the women in my life happy. This lead to numerous failed relationships because it’s quite simple: you cannot make someone else happy.

It took a long time and plenty of counselling (I’m blessed to have the means to afford access to private therapy) but I’ve since been able to rewire my brain to not seek validation from others.

The relevance of this for me is men are not taught to do this enough. So many love to quote the idiom that men are only worth what they can offer to society. We need to be raising our boys to self validate and to know that whatever and whoever they are is always enough no matter what. I know that’s how I’ll be raising my kids.

SailSignificant5812 · 2022-12-12T16:11:08+00:00

I don't think there is anything possible to be done. The incel term has its uses for some people (it's a slur with which nobody want to be associated with so kind of killing a debate) and who really wants to start a debate in public that incel is ironically pure toxic masculinity.

The whole debate is so poisoned that we should shut down and start again in 5 years.

But till then start in your personal surroundings and try to help if you can.

Moist-Quiet-647 · 2022-12-12T23:07:54+00:00

I've read many studies on incels and they seem inconclusive when it comes to how they approach the problem (mentally ill men to be "helped" - or dangerous terrorists to be monitored and possibly locked up). They are also inconclusive on demographics: some studies *do* seem to show that incels are majority white and right-wing.

Last problem, the definition of the term "incel". It has at least 3 definitions from the broadest to the narrowest:

"Incel" as involuntarily celibate people (etymological sense). Rarely used this way nowadays.
"Incel" as any man who is misogynistic because he can't get laid. I.e. men who would have been called "neckbeards" in the 2010s. Mostly used on forums like reddit and discord.
"Incel" as self-identified incels who explicitly adhere to blackpill beliefs. Only used by people who observe the group, like academics; journalists; and mocking communities r/IncelTear.

Any discussion of "incels" that doesn't specify which definition they're using is pointless.

lingdingwhoopy · 2022-12-13T23:20:26+00:00

The term has already been successfully co-opted as a cudgel to mean "any male opinion we bristle at."

And attributing it to the "right wing white male" scapegoat is all they needed to crystallize the term and anybody who identifies as an existential threat.

I've been saying for years already that understanding the incel phenomenon is how we prevent it in the future and help those who already identify.

But for the most vocal online commentators the very idea of anything remotely approaching a base level of empathy for incel is seen as excusing them, supporting them, or/and being one yourself.

Actually suggest "hey maybe we help them?" and you get attacked for daring to suggest they can even be helped at all. Oh, and the "not our job to educate those who hate us" rhetoric always comes out.

Well, it should be somebody's job, don't you think? I'm not saying it's women's job. Of course it's not. But people seem to gloss over incels harbor hatred, resentment, and dismissal for other men, too - men they see as successful and functional.

maxcorrice · 2022-12-12T20:13:39+00:00

One of the easiest ways is encouraging and trying to get people connected, there’s not really a feasible way to get a date for a lot of men nowadays, dating apps break the whole system

SnooBeans6591 · 2022-12-12T19:23:22+00:00

"Incel" is a weird name.

Literally everyone is or was an incel, except if they were forcefully married and therefore never were celibate, or if they are asexual/aromantic and therefore never wanted to get into a partnership.

But other than that? Before your first date and between two relationships, you're an "incel".

throwburneraway2 · 2022-12-12T19:34:24+00:00

I've bought into incel beliefs in the past and have been trying to drop it for the past 2 years, but now as I'm becoming more lonely and my mental health is getting worse, as well as my appearance. These beliefs are coming back full swing. If theres anything incels are RIGHT about is that your appearance determines almost every social aspect for you. I've gained back around 100 pounds of weight I lost and I've never been so lonely and abandoned by all my friends.

hotpotato138 · 2022-12-12T18:22:49+00:00

I have an issue with the term "incel", because it implies people who aren't, can get laid with whoever and whenever they want. There are also different types of people who are celibate for different reasons. The term incel lumps everyone into the same category.

BloomingBrains · 2022-12-23T00:02:22+00:00

In my experience, it makes perfect sense why incels would be more likely to be liberal than conservative. The whole reason why a lot of people identify as incel, including myself (in the past) is because they feel like they are being held up to a standard of hyper-traditional masculinity they can't live up to and therefore will never get a date. Like, if you look at incels, they are not typically jocks, bodybuilders, etc. Most are shy and "sensitive" types, intellectuals, gamers, etc. There are definitely some that do believe in the conservative ideal and despise themselves for not living up to it, but even in those cases, I'd day its from internalizing a lot of society's toxic beliefs.

They are actually die-hard romantics who turn into bitter cynics (oftentimes going too far the other direction, admittedly) because they were burned and scorned by society.

Unexpected-bug · 2022-12-12T21:12:17+00:00

There is no other way to solve this problem besides leading society to a more balanced dating scene in which both men and women have reasons to date on their respective leagues. For this to be possible, it's necessary to end any ideologies and policies that give privileges without responsibilities to any sex, and also to end any ideologies and policies that promote equality of outcome instead of equality of opportunities. By doing this, society will organically shift to a more balanced and healthy dating scenario. But this requires a real revolution, and only strong people can do that - are we seeing the seeds of this revolutionary group growing?

halladall · 2022-12-12T23:32:38+00:00

The framing of this pamphlet really bothers me.... I don't know who made it or why but it sounds ominous.

They start out by claiming to be "The truth"

Taking a very loosely defined group of people. Incel does have a definition (they even use it here, though it's a little subtle) "Involuntary Celibate" but most people who use the word incel doesn't take it to mean that, they usually just mean "Looser male person i don't like" when they say it. Which is maybe something that should be adressed in a pamphlet like this.

They expand on the stereotype so that it now includes anyone who is male and young further loosening the definition. Now it could be anyone.

They then spend several pages subtly painting incels as mentally unstable, while outright calling them misogynists. Additionally blaming the incels for not seeking out help with their issues, even though every other group with mental issues are told where and when to get help while these somehow has to seek it out themselves and are bad if they dont. On that note I'd like to know, where does a young man go to get help with anxiety and depression? Every institution I know of would blame the young man for having feelings he's not entitled to.

On page nine they start talking about terrorism, as if that is even remotely appropriate. Imagine the article said: "Islam in and of itself is not a terrorist ideology." While that statement is true, making that connection in this document is pretty wild.

Then the last page "What is your solution to the incel problem." ... not "How do we help incels get better?" or "These young men need help, what do we do?" Their last statement makes it sound like they think rounding op the "guilty" and shooting them at dawn is among the valid options.

I am sorry, I might be way off base here. This document might be an honest attempt to make a problem more nuanced than it currently is in the media, while still having to run the gauntlet of censorship of said media. To me it just comes off as thinly vailed war propaganda and that's a little scary.

MarigoldNCM1101 · 2022-12-16T22:53:32+00:00

I think what’s missing from the uncle conversation is that the term has lost meaning as it has become more popular. An uncle is a very specific type of male that is equal parts lonely and sad, as well as terrifying and vengeful. I also do think incels range the span of sexualities, races, ethnic group, and political affiliations.

A male being depressed, lonely, lacks assertiveness, or is struggling with relationships is not an invés in my opinion. He is just an average dude.

B1G_Fan · 2022-12-12T20:47:56+00:00

Single guys like myself don’t see any realistic chances at mutually beneficial relationships just want to be left alone

Don’t tax me, don’t expect me to work hard to keep society chugging along, and stop nagging me when I coast along on impulse power

It would also help if women would be honest about how they have no interest in making relationships mutually beneficial unless the dude is a 9.5/10 or better.

The Book of Proverbs was right every time about how it’s not worth it to marry a quarrelsome wife. And most wives have no interest in restraining their quarrelsome nature unless her husband is a 9.5 or better

And I wish women would be honest about how disinterested women really are in the bottom 95% of dudes. That way, we could avoid the anger that understandably grows out of being lied to about how attainable a mutually beneficial marriage is

Eledridan · 2022-12-12T17:17:07+00:00

Wait, is slide 4 correct? How can they be “disproportionately non-white” when white has 64%?

ScreenPrintWalrus · 2022-12-15T01:17:57+00:00

Let me just be the nth person thanking you for these posts. It's like Instagram from some alternate universe where people responded well to measured thinking and reason.

Next-Rip-9026 · 2022-12-15T05:20:44+00:00

its kinda insane how this was a terminally online lingo for a long time, and now has become so mainstream communities have broken into many different colored pills. So which even makes this term even more complex because those communtiies dont really have alot in common with each other. I hate red pill culture and people who promoted it but then i was swayed by the black pill community until I snapped out of it myself.

This whole thing is so complex I still am barely scratching the surface of understanding this and the consequences of it.

AwfulUsername123 · 2022-12-18T20:18:04+00:00

The claim that the overwhelming majority of incels are white has been deliberate misinformation from the beginning. You can't take even a cursory look into inceldom without discovering all the people of Asian descent.

ADHighDef · 2022-12-13T10:19:08+00:00

based

rochesterslim · 2022-12-12T22:23:40+00:00

make prostitution legal worldwide…

QuantumBullet · 2022-12-12T19:50:58+00:00

My solution? The collapse of society should clear up the incels and their legitimate complaints.

frackingfaxer · 2022-12-13T03:48:31+00:00

This will probably sound awfully depressing, but I think if there is such a thing as a real solution to the incel problem, it is going to involve the end of romance.

It's often said that prostitution isn't any kind of solution, even if it were completely legal and free from stigma, because incels don't just want sex, they want all this other stuff that they imagine has to accompany sex to be "real" sex. Hence, the existence of the incelese term escortcel, an incel who has sex with sex workers, but considers it an inauthentic sexual experience, a mere cope.

But what if sex work was completely decriminalized and completely destigmatized and they didn't hold to all these myths idealizing romance and vilifying sex without love? Consider that our contemporary Western notions of romance are, in the grand scheme of things, a fairly recent invention from the Middle Ages#Popularizationof_the_term%22Romance%22). Romantic love, as we understand it, is not a cultural universal#Historical_usage). Many cultures and most of humanity managed to live without it for millennia. Sex, on the other hand, I think we can all agree, is a lot older and is a much more fundamental base desire of ours. There's no healthy way of eliminating someone's libido, but I suspect that there is a way to deprogram one's culturally learned desire for romance. If incels could manage that, perhaps they might conclude that they can live a fulfilling life obtaining companionship and love (not of the romantic kind) from friends, family, and pets, while obtaining sex from sex workers.

RexFx96 · 2022-12-24T00:54:34+00:00

Solutions. 1: skill based, hands on education for men. 2: enforced monogamy and arranged marriages. 3: workplace fraternities.

DepDic2 · 2023-02-02T19:50:29+00:00

i know i'm late to the conversation but I have some thoughts i've been meaning to get out.

the first thing I'd say is missing from the incel conversation is a distinction between Incels (that is, with a capital-I) and incels (with a lowercase-i). capital-I Incels are the ones that post to certain forums and fantasize about/promote violence against the rest of the population while lowercase-i incels are anyone that wants to be in a relationship but isn't. all Incels might be incels but most incels aren't Incels. Incels I think are too far gone to be helped but there are plenty of good incels who are suffering in silence and get unfairly lumped together with Incels.

i think the main cause of incels is 'unmanliness'. meaning, they may be short and slight-of-build, or unassertive and introverted, but these 'unmanly' traits make them unattractive to women and/or unable to navigate the challenges of dating.

the best solution i can think of is a radical cultural shift that accepts unmanly men but that's obviously easier said than done. hopefully, we can begin by raising awareness for incels (probably under a new name, which is a shame because 'incel' is already a lot nicer-sounding than the v-word) and cultivating empathy for them instead of hostility, dismissiveness, and shame.

Of_Monads_and_Nomads · 2025-01-08T23:31:36+00:00

I used to say it’s all in the lack of mental health resources. But it’s not that simple; the reasons we even need half these mental health resources are mostly psychologically toxic factors that spring from capitalism itself.

Not to mention that everything one needs to live a basically healthy lifestyle, conducive to being social and attractive, is behind a paywall. I have a family whom I love but I am also someone who made it over these paywalls earlier in my career.

Micsuking · 2022-12-12T18:51:50+00:00

The way I "imagine" incels is not even remotely based in political leaning or race. I imagine them as toxic and insecure, as people who will take literally every single chance to bash and blame women. I imagine them as the exact same kind of people that frequent subs like r/witchesvspatriarchy but males.

hshsgdve · 2022-12-12T15:06:45+00:00

Jordan Peterson.

That man is the embodiment of the for incels.

blaizken_420 · 2022-12-13T00:24:55+00:00

The fact that these men could hire a prostitute at any time. They can change their plight to "not having a relationship", but that's moving the goal post.

VisceralSardonic · 2022-12-12T16:25:38+00:00

I think it’s always been very clear that incels have very poor mental health. The problem is the approach they take to coping and the way that women end up being blamed and even threatened for their struggles. Incels are the epitome of why men need to be able to develop healthy coping mechanisms without shame from those around them, and why emotional intelligence needs to be addressed universally. Men often don’t have enough genuine connections either, so the lack of a partner becomes even more acute.

If the incel movement was getting famous because people were saying “I never learned how to talk to women and don’t have enough connections in my life, which is a pervasive problem for many of us” it would be very different than the “women are at fault for my loneliness because they only care about dick” that gets popularized now.

Aniihya · 2022-12-13T10:51:43+00:00

People who self-identify as "involuntarily celibate" instead of as virgins or untouched, are usually entitled misogynistic pricks. You are not entitled to sex and mental illness is not an excuse.

All in all, I think it is time to leave this sub.

griii2 · 2022-12-19T20:14:44+00:00

Whether the solution exists or not, the first step is to normalise sex work. (This would solve many other problems too)

Title	What's missing from the incel conversation?
Author	TheTinMenBlog
Upvotes	312
Comments	192
Date	December 12, 2022 1:30 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/comments/zjz668/whats_missing_from_the_incel_conversation/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates/whats-missing-from-the-incel-conversation.1144150 https://theredarchive.com/post/1144150

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