Just less than a month apart.

[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 346 points347 points348 points 9 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link

[+]gabblox 9 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

Is there any evidence that Tammy Hughes is a feminist, or is that just a gendered assumption based on her name?

Feminism's ideology of toxic masculinity doesn't seem especially at odds with this post. This is probably an area where feminism and the MRM should be meeting as middle ground.

[–]mochacola 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[+]gabblox 9 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

No, there's no evidence? No, feminists shouldn't be working with MRM?

[–]mochacola 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

No, MRM shouldn't believe feminists is trying to help men too.

No, the idea of 'toxic masculinity' was not invented to help men.

Truth: feminist movement hijacked dv narrative to hoard relief funds to their movement, by rejecting the idea that men can be victims.

But instead of admitting their Duluth Model was false, they spin it as toxic masculinity made it difficult for male victims to open up and seek help.

Truth: feminist movement continue to use male violence as a potential threat to children to rig family court system.

But instead of looking the consequences of fatherless kids and admitting they created a system that makes it easy for moms to lie to extort money from dad's, they spun it to dad's not having custody due to toxic masculinity which made men unable to express their love to their kids, creating a weaker parent/child bond.

I can go on and on. But 'toxic masculinity' is just a way to blame everything back to men. Saying, if men stop acting like men, all their problems will go away. Nevermind all legislative changes made against men.

[+]gabblox 9 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

You have a very polarised view of the world. It sounds very "us versus them". Do you want women to be oppressed? If not you should consider that there may be feminists who don't want men to be oppressed either.

[–]mochacola 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]gabblox 9 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say that you want women to be oppressed, in fact I had an assumption of the opposite. I was using rhetoric to highlight the absurdity of your position that feminists want men to be oppressed. They don't want men to be oppressed the exact same way that you don't want women to be oppressed.

There are aspects of the system that aren't fair for men, there are aspects of the system that aren't fair for women. We should be trying to help each other out instead of demonising each other.

[–]mochacola 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]gabblox 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I know a lot of what Erin Pizzey has to say. A good chunk of her dislike towards feminists are militant feminists who have become so radicalised in their views that their reaction to all feedback is hostility. Given your tone and attitude toward me saying that it would be constructive to work with feminists towards mutually beneficial means I have a feeling you may be the MRM equivalent of a militant feminist.

[–]mochacola2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Like what? Like I advocate violence against any women who don't agree with me? Please.

Radical feminists? Duluth model is still taught in genders studies despite we already know domestic violence is learnt behavioral pattern and not a gendered issue. Has feminist stopped pushing the narrative that domestic violence is a form of male oppression on women? Nope.

Who set up campus kangeroo courts? Radical feminists? Or feminists with enough funding and political muscle to lobby for White House to implement those changes?

Harriet Harman, who stated in her 'Family Way', that "it cannot be assumed that men are bound to be an asset to family life or that the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social cohesion", is condemned as a radical feminist by academia or a feminist role model to look up to?

Can you explain to me what is wrong exposing historical truth and spreading scientific facts? That's being militant extremist?

[–]wanderer7791 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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i don't think she deserves ridicule like that. i think some women are just very irresponsible with power. it IS true that "the patriarchy" has hurt women for a LONG time. But now that that time is ending, some women who have the right to wield power over men do it quite irresponsibility. the same is true for any oppressed group. as soon as they are able to free themselves from oppression, a certain amount of them seek revenge on anyone who was or even would have been part of the oppressing group.

many of the Jewish nazi hunters were quite ruthless. am i defending nazis? no. many blm activists are quite ruthless. am i defending slavery? no. but im against oppression no matter what. i don't condone revenge. i see abuse/oppression as a sickness both to the oppressed and the oppressors. many women see men and mens rights activists as "cancer" because they think there's some level of vengeance due. i disagree with that. and i disagree with this woman, but i also disagree with you.

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[–]sunascorpion 77 points78 points79 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Not "desirable" in the sense that I then want to sleep with him, but I'll give you examples from my personal experience for the sake of the conversation.

I had been married to my husband for a few months and made some stupid comment about his weight (I can't remember what it was). I wasn't intending to be mean, but it came off that way and reminded him of how he'd get made fun of and excluded from groups growing up because he's fat. He started crying, and I was shocked. I had never seen him cry before.

My first reaction was, "Holy shit, I'm an asshole, I just made this strong and usually happy man cry because I said something fucking stupid." Then, as stupid as it sounds, I realized that he wasn't always strong and happy. He wasn't this all-powerful rock that could handle anything and everything life threw at him. He's a fucking human being, and he has emotions like everyone else, I'd just never seen the unhappy ones before.

Three years later, we're still married, we're still very much in love, and he knows that he can talk to me about anything because I will listen. Our relationship is based on communication and honesty. When he's refusing to talk to me about what's bothering him, I get unhappy because I can't be there for him. When he opens up, when he's honest and even when he's vulnerable and cries (which doesn't happen often but it does happen), I don't think any less of him. I'm happy he feels safe enough with me to be that honest, and I'm happy when I can help him feel better about what's bothering him.

This may just be my opinion, but if you're with a woman who's making you feel bad because you have emotions, you are a thousand times better off without that woman in your life. I know it sucks--i have been insulted, made fun of and smacked around for showing my emotions to the wrong people, and it fucking sucks. But that doesn't mean you should never open up to anyone ever again.

You just need someone you can trust, be it your parent, sibling, spouse, best friend, therapist, even writing down how you feel and then shredding it can be helpful. But there are people who care about you, there are plenty of people who care about men and want them to succeed and be happy. Don't let the few assholes make you guys think otherwise.

[–]Strange_Bedfellow 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're a great woman, and your husband is lucky.

But what do you do when all you know as a man is to hold your emotions in? Especially when you are introverted, and don't have a large number of friends? Even less that you see on a regular basis?

It's been over 5 years since I've had a girlfriend, or for that matter, just a friend I could open up to. I can't afford to talk to a therapist, so what do I do from here?

As a coping mechanism, I have accepted that I will be alone until the day I die. Though, as much as I like my solitude, now and again I need social interaction. But I always get cancelled on when I reach out. I also don't get much in the way of invites any other time.

So, what do I do? My schedule is restrictive, I have no confidence, and few friends. How do I change any of this?

[–]sunascorpion3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Unfortunately, I don't think I have any easy solutions on this situation. I have three friends, and we're not especially close, just familiar enough with each other that it's comfortable. And the only family I can talk to about personal issues is my husband. All of them live on the opposite side of the country, so I rarely get to see them. I know that loneliness.

I noticed the opposite in myself--I was too trusting with new friends, or coworkers or family. I would vent my problems or cry in front of them because they said they cared and wanted to help. Long story short, I did it too much, and they stopped caring. But that was mostly on me. It was a shitty time in my life, and I was never happy, and it pushed everyone else away.

I started making an effort to keep things in, to pretend to be happy, and to focus more on others in conversation than myself. Sometimes I slip up and feel awkward, but I wave it off pretty quickly now and go back to pretending.

The funny thing I've noticed about pretending is, after a while, it stops feeling like pretending. Not in the sense that your mask is so good it feels like a second skin, but in that you stop feeling like it's this big show you have to put on. I can have pleasant conversations with my husband's family, and while two years ago it was a chore, now I find myself actually caring about making them happy.

When I was focused on nothing but my own unhappiness, it never went away. When I started focusing on making a difference in other people's lives, however small, I stopped hating myself so much. From time to time I still do, I still get upset, I just started trying to handle it on my own instead of involving other people, because even your best friend will start to resent you if you've got nothing but bad news.

As for coping with it, I do talk to my friends, I just keep very in control of how I talk to them. Instead of honestly saying, "my life is falling apart and I feel suicidal again," I say, "I just need to vent a little, I'm having a bad day" or "do you have any advice on how to deal with xyz?" Usually they try to help and offer encouragement, and I feel better having said something. And I tell them that they helped, even if only a little.

When I can't do that, I've written everything down in a journal, played my music really loud until I'm exhausted, attacked a punching bag until I wasn't furious anymore, even just getting outside and taking a look around for a bit helps sometimes. There are also free sites you can go to for counseling or just someone to talk to, though I haven't used any yet myself.

As for social gatherings, maybe there are some places where you live hosting events you can go to, like fundraisers for something you agree with, or just general get-togethers open to the public (if you're cool with meeting strangers to make more friends). You could also try just being direct with the people you invite to do stuff who cancel on you: "hey, I really want to hang out with you but you've been flaky the last few times. Do you think you can make it or no? Don't tell me you can if you can't." Stand up for yourself.

And as for the confidence, I honestly don't know. Sometimes I feel confident when I take care of my appearance or eat well and exercise, sometimes no matter what I do I'm just a ball of nerves. I still think most people I meet hate me, based off past experience. My husband tells me any time someone talks about me to him, they always like me. I'm slowly starting to believe it really might all be in my head. But I have noticed that the less I've hated myself, the more confident I've felt. I hate to sound sappy, but I really think it comes down to you just believing in yourself that you're not a bad person. No one is half as bad as they think they are.

Lastly, if you decide that you're going to be alone until you die, then you probably will be. But I've heard many people say something similar and I've yet to see a single person follow through on it. You just need to decide what you want to have in life and decide how you're going to get there. Do you need to do different things? Do you need to be a different kind of person? And figure out what changes you can make to yourself and your life that are real for you.

That's how I've been doing it anyway, and so far it's been working alright. While I'm not exactly who I've always wanted to be, nothing has gotten worse and several aspects of my life have gotten better little by little.

I'm sorry this was so long. I hope I was able to help you even a little, or at least give you some new ideas.

[–]mrmensplights 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I completely agree with you but there's also a huge contextual difference between men in public and men in private. In public, men are expected to be more stoic, to take more risks, and to tackle problems without hesitation. These behaviours and the expectation of them are just part of the dice roll evolution instilled in men. Because these are biologically 'male' behaviours they are seen as attractive by most women when it comes to casually dating as well.

Private is totally different. Your husband isn't just any man to you. He's your husband. It's precisely because you know him so much better that he can open up without it being off putting. You only know the surface details of strangers and if they break from the script and act in an aberrant way it means uncertainty, and uncertainty could be a threat. However, when your husband breaks from the norm you don't see that as dangerous to you.. you just see his pain.

[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

if you're with a woman who's making you feel bad because you have emotions, you are a thousand times better off without that woman in your life.

This is a systematic problem, not just a few isolated women who act as a hated minority. These are expectations that are culturally adopted by women, which other women collectively emulate, encourage and legitimize. There are certainly women who grow to empathize with their significant other, especially as they mature over the years, but those women will still generally have a much different outlook towards men outside of that pre-established relationship and how women view/judge men will still be a cultural reality. You cannot just "get rid of these women", because these are just about every women you have in your life, and will likely meet or interact with in the future. The fact that you even described this story as some kind of revelation to you, kind of shows that you had pre-existing ideals before getting into the relationship.

[–]neart_roimh_laige 61 points62 points63 points 9 years ago (208 children) | Copy Link

[–]majortom22 171 points172 points173 points 9 years ago (168 children) | Copy Link

[+]EWSTW 9 years ago* [recovered] (130 children) | Copy Link

I opened up quite a bit to one of my close female friends, who I have some feelings for, about my depression. After three weeks I got told I was "exhausting".

[–]captshady 198 points199 points200 points 9 years ago* (82 children) | Copy Link

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[+]A7K 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah that's not healthy, your spouse sounds toxic.

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[+]Toparov 9 years ago* [recovered] (21 children) | Copy Link

Shit high school kids say. If you are in a long term relationship where you can't cry in front of your partner and confide in them you are in a shitty relationship or dating a shitty person it isn't the norm or healthy.

[–]FuckURedditor 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]candyman420 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[+]Toparov 9 years ago [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Dude I am in a relationship like this, one of the cementing moments in it when I realised this was a for life thing is when seven years back I had some heavy shit happen at work (I worked in an Emergency room a the time) came home and had a panic attack and cried for a couple of hours and was supported and cared for by my now wife, it turned a casual relationship into an enduring thing, people find honesty and trust attractive.

Obviously you can be too emotional, both men and women can but in the appropriate situation it's an attractive thing.

Neither gender wants to date a rock, your partner is the centre of your interaction with people and of your life, people want a human being who they can relate to and who they know will be able to empathise with them and share with them on an equal level. Imagine if the person you were going to share the rest of your life with had no apparent emotions, that would be shit.

[–]LucifersHammerr 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I noticed above you wrote "yeah only from men" about the tendency of enforcing gender roles. This is backwards:

What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early assumptions, men's shame is not primarily inflicted by other men. Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor.

"Most women pledge allegiance to this idea that women can explore their emotions, break down, fall apart—and it's healthy," Brown said. "But guys are not allowed to fall apart." Ironically, she explained, men are often pressured to open up and talk about their feelings, and they are criticized for being emotionally walled-off; but if they get too real, they are met with revulsion. She recalled the first time she realized that she had been complicit in the shaming: "Holy Shit!" she said. "I am the patriarchy!"

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/messages-of-shame-are-organized-around-gender/275322/

Female disgust at male weakness is rooted in biology.

The reason women cannot readily admit to contradictions that end up hurting others, such as telling men to be more vulnerable and then recoiling in disgust when they do, is they cannot face the public shame of being thought of as a bad person, one who hurts others. And without the ability to face their shame, they do not learn how to override these instinctual drives.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-some-women-repulsed-by-male-vulnerability-as-discovered-by-Bren%C3%A9-Brown

Whatever you may think of your own relationship and how well it's going, you are NOT giving men good advice on this thread.

Edit: I'm being downvoted by feminists for quoting a feminist who took a scientific approach to the issue lol.

[–]Toparov5 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]LucifersHammerr1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Well, you can trust what an expert on the subject says (she's a feminist no less) who has been studying the issue of gender-based shaming for over ten years or you can go on pretending that women love men who are emotive and vulnerable. That would be unique in the animal kingdom, but perhaps a divine being made female humans different.

Studies do indeed show that whereas men value kindness and sensitivity in a mate, women do not. Women value strength, confidence, high social status and wealth.

Physically attractive men or men with high wealth/social status can gat away with being sensitive, but it's not considered attractive in and of itself. Men aren't stupid. If women valued sensitivity there would be men crying their eyes out on every street corner instead of going to the gym and trying to earn money.

Your advice is actually harmful to men because it flies in the face of all available evidence.

The whole thing about "men need to cry!" is bullshit anyway. If it worked we would be seeing the suicide rate drop (these campaigns have been going on since the 70's). Instead it's at an all time high. Men commit suicide because no one values men who are struggling, whereas women are valuable by default (wombs). Going around crying to your friends and relatives will probably just make the situation worse. What is needed are changes in the law regarding things like custody and divorce, protection for men who suffer false allegations, employment programs, an end to affirmative action, celebration of boys and masculine virtues etc.

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[–]candyman4201 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not about reading minds.. I'll elaborate more on why it's ok to generalize people - if it's done in the right framework.

For example, it's ridiculous to say that ALL people behave a certain way, although there are minimal common traits that all women share, which are unique to them. I'm sure you know what some of those are, even though it's not politically correct to talk about them.

It's also true that a man displaying weakness in front of his significant other is more of a deal-breaker to some than others. Some fragile little princesses need to feel that they are with a strong man at all costs, or they move along. While at the same time other women are more tolerant to it.

But to say that there are some completely unfazed by it, I don't buy it. Your points as a man definitely go down every time you decide to "open up." And I think you know it.

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[+]Toparov 9 years ago [recovered] (26 children) | Copy Link

Yeah but only from men.

[–]Hitleresque 32 points33 points34 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]Toparov-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Hitleresque3 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

We are both just shooting around opinions, studies on this are going to be very limited. I am aware of this study that shows that typically masculine appearance is not desirable to women and that women prefer males with lower testosterone levels:

That's not what it shows though, most of the data still suggests that women prefer more masculine faces or neutral faces.

"Women’s Preferences for Male Faces. In male faces, women showed evidence of nonrandom preferences in all groups (Fig. 2). Randomization tests revealed significant female preferences for masculinized male faces across both relationship contexts for the Canadian, Hangzhou, and Kadazan samples (P < 0.00001, P = 0.017, and P = 0.0009, respectively); a significant preference for neutral faces among Cree, Fijians, Shanghainese, and Tchimba participants (P < 0.00002, P = 0.047, P = 0.002, and P < 0.00001, respectively); and a significant preference for femininity among the Miskitu and Shuar (P = 0.00002 and P = 0.038, respectively)."

Also I would suggest looking around at male sex symbols of the modern day and seeing how many are openly emotional through their art and not stereo-typically masculine in appearance.

I think any man who's famous is a sex symbol because of the fame, not because of their appearance. Women might swoon for Johnny Depp but I bet on average they're a lot more attracted to Hugh Jackman.

I'll offer this study as a counter source http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S019188690800202X

Here they show that women are more attracted to more masculine looking men when they are ovulating. In other words, when it's mating season they prefer masculinity.

[–]Toparov1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It shows a preference for neutral faces i.e. less masculine faces overall, certainly it puts a lie to the "biological universal" narrative since different cultures like different amounts of masculinity.

That is immediately a non falsifiable premise because to be a sex symbol you have to be famous and therefore apparently a sex symbol because famous. It's total nonsense btw, all the anguished poets and emos were getting laid in uni way more than I was and they were all emotional and waif thin.

Yeah that's true, women prefer more masculine men (on a relative scale to their usual attractions) during ovulation because at that point they are biologically considering child protection more than other factors but it's not like the human experience is dominated by partner seeking during ovulation, people form relationships completely independent of their menstrual cycle. There is evidence that women prefer less masculine men when on the pill (for the reverse reason) and if anything those women are more likely to be sexually active and available from a rather gross but pragmatic partnering view.

[–]Bascome1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Drippyskippy1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Toparov1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Drippyskippy2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So your counter argument is to use examples of incredibly famous highly attractive men as an argument? You also do realize women like men who have very high social status as well right? Fame, money, attractiveness, these guys have all of it. They don't need muscles or to be tall when they have other very attractive features.

Take 2 average guys with the same social status and similar facial features. One who is 6ft 5inch weighs 220 pounds with noticeable muscles and a 6 pack VS a guy who is 5ft 6inch weighting 140 pounds with no noticeable muscle. If you asked women who was the most attractive, the overwhelming majority would say the guy who is 6ft 5inch, guaranteed. If you disagree with that, then I really don't know what to say other than...have you heard of the internet? Have you ever googled "features women like"?

[–]Toparov1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Alternating variables here, being tall isn't the same as being muscular, women like men who are in shape but you don't need testosterone excess to be in shape, women do not necessarily like bulk muscle at all which is the testosterone traditionally masculine associated appearance.

Height is a separate function, women do find height attractive. If you take a guy who is in decent shape of the same height and social status etc. and put him up against a jacked dude then opinions will vary from woman to woman on what is attractive however testosterone hair etc. is not attractive.

Those guys are the most attractive dudes around, the Rock is super famous and wealthy but I think Di Caprio would be considered more attractive by most women based on appearance even though he is taller and super jacked.

[–]Drippyskippy1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I like when I'm in an argument with someone and they down vote me. Shows I struck a nerve and tells me I'm winning. That being said, your previous post doesn't address my argument. You said women don't find masculine traits attractive, sorry but they do (muscles, height, aggressiveness, stoicism). You're entitled to believe what you want to believe. However, in instances such as this I like the saying "You can lead a thirsty horse to water, but you can't make the horse drink the water". In this instance, I'm leading you (the horse) to the water (the facts), but you aren't drinking it. Do you know what happens to thirsty horses that don't drink water? They die of thirst. I no longer subscribe to the "ignorance is bliss" moto. Its how I fell into believing many of the feminist myths for a good portion of my life. I use facts to motivate me and better myself, not hide from them. Have a good day, we are done here.

[–]mwobuddy4 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]gfjhgjfhghfghjf7 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Shut the fuck up and get out.

Nice guy memes

"Nice guy" is like "creepy" is like "fuckboi"

It's manipulation of reality via words, in order to shame and silence what are otherwise cogent observations on the world around us. Get the fuck out. You're such a low-intelligence tool spouting opinions you picked up along the way based on the way you want the world to work.

Women want to pretend to be everything at once, and here's the thing ----- you can not fuck studs and then call actual nice men "nice" in a condescending fashion. You can, but you're going into the echo chamber where women pretend the men they slept with are "fuckbois" who they would never want a relationship with, just to sleep and possibly have sperm ejaculated inside of them from the party. Get the fuck out, no one likes you and your lies. We see through your shit, and trying to shame us won't work. Go shame those other dudes while they ignore you. All you are teaching us is to ignore your opinions, fuck, I could write your opinions for you.

Every time you lie to us we hate you more. Why is this so hard for you to understand?

We all know you're lying. We all know you're lying. We all know you're misdirecting. It's why you lost the election, and you need to shut the fuck up and check your lies. Get the fuck out. We saw through your shit years ago.

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oh man, evo psych is hilarious. masculinity and femininity aren't evolutionary concepts. Sexual selection is not a consistent force, selective pressures have changed over time and will continue to do so. Our current cultural beliefs are not here by design, they are the accumulation of a numerous different selective pressures that often don't even provide any benefits towards survival. Sexual conflict and sexual antagonism are important concepts you should read into. Evolution is far, far more complex than your simple explanation of sexual selection and survival of the fittest.

[–]Hitleresque 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

oh man, evo psych is hilarious. masculinity and femininity aren't evolutionary concepts.

They certainly are when you can make qualitative observations about traits that tend to exist more on average in males or females.

Sexual selection is not a consistent force, selective pressures have changed over time and will continue to do so.

Of course, although much of our current psychological traits were influenced by hundreds of thousands of years. Human society did not exist as we know it for the vast majority of human existence, we are not adapted to our current environment yet.

Our current cultural beliefs are not here by design, they are the accumulation of a numerous different selective pressures that often don't even provide any benefits towards survival.

They provide benefits towards reproduction though, which is as important if not more so than survival.

Sexual conflict and sexual antagonism are important concepts you should read into. Evolution is far, far more complex than your simple explanation of sexual selection and survival of the fittest.

I know of them, and of course it is. That doesn't change the fact that a lot of human behaviours are well explained by evolutionary concepts. At the end of the day I can't make you see something you don't want to, but in case you feel like looking into it, there's a big body of work in this field by David Buss that's worth a read.

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By saying that to me you are saying I am not in a healthy relationship and you imply that I am not a healthy man

I thought it was obvious that I was referring to men who cry, but you're correct, a better wording would have been what I stated in my reply to you.

"Men in healthy relationships, who have effectively communicated to their significant other that crying is an important emotional release, can and should be able to cry to their significant other without risk of judgement or shame."

If crying is not important to you, and your SO thinks crying men are unattractive, that is possibly a healthy relationship.

Do you understand that codicil to your argument, did you consider it?

No, I thought I was having a conversation about men who want to cry and the appropriate or expected response from an SO or other women in his life.

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Considering she then bailed and we haven't spoken for two years....

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Wow, did not expect so many responses.

That being said, I fully recognize that I'm a minority. Being a very emotional person myself and having dealt with a lot of trauma in my past, I know how valuable it is to relieve yourself emotionally. Being the "more masculine" kind of woman, I made a lot of male friends, and because misery loves company, many of us were dealing with similar trauma. I always felt so much more connected to them when we cried together over whatever shit life was throwing at us that week.

For those of you who would chalk that up to teenage hormonal drama, a couple of years ago, my husband's dog passed away. She had been with him for about ten years and he loved her dearly. He was devastated at the news and cried a lot. I definitely felt much closer to him afterward and it, strangely enough, was a huge bonding experience for us.

As for the comment about only finding it attractive when "Hollywood hunks" cry, I actually feel the opposite. Most of the time I dislike on-screen male emotion because it feels forced. Unless it's a scene of extreme desperation or loss, I don't feel much of anything as an emotional response.

As far as these things go on a macro level, definitely don't expect women's panties to drop at the sight of a tear on a man. But it's a two-way street, you know? If you want a deep, emotional connection to a woman, it takes both of you being vulnerable for that to happen. And some--maybe most--women won't necessarily like it, because there is definitely this idea of the "man's man" who is super tough and never cries and takes bullets like a champ (which is a stupid image imo) and that's what women desire. Granted there is just as much of a stigma (in my opinion) of a confident woman seeming bitchy or an emotional one seeming hysterical.

There are shit expectations of both genders and shit treatment of both by the other that needs to end. Being vulnerable is hard--period. No one likes it and it's so easy to be rejected and never want to open up again. But unless you keep trying and wait to find the person who respects you for it, you're going to be in the same place you've always been.

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[–]AndresGleamingChest 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Dude have you actually even been in a relationship?

The vast majority of women want for you to open up to them, and it is required that you share your feelings for any long term relationship to function.

Obviously if you go on 2 dates with a girl and then breakdown in tears she's going to haul ass out of there, you come across as emotionally unstable.

But any woman you know well, and who knows you well should have no problem with it.

If this has been a problem for you, it may be that you're attracting the wrong kind of women. Don't pretend to be something you're not. If you are tacking on masculinity and bravado, the women you attract most likely will be into this kind of attitude, and may possibly be turned off by big displays of emotion.

I'm a fairly sensitive guy and make no effort to hide it. I may poke fun at myself for these things that some people feel are "feminine traits". But whenever I feel there is a benefit in sharing these feelings I do it.

I've cried in front of a pretty significant number of my girlfriends, and none of them have had any problems with it.

But at the same time you have to pay attention to their feelings as well. If your girlfriend's mother just died, don't come to her and make her listen to you stress out about something that happened at school or work.

Caring and emotional venting is a two way street. You can't expect someone to deal with all your shit, if you have showed no interest in dealing with theirs.

Maybe the problem here is you are viewing women as "vaginas" that "turn into the Mohave desert" when you display your feelings. They are human beings with their own problems and you can't just bombard them with your own without any consideration.

What do you expect them to do? Give you a sloppy blowjob because you cried at them?

Treat people with respect and any good person will treat you with respect.

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What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early assumptions, men's shame is not primarily inflicted by other men. Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor.

"Most women pledge allegiance to this idea that women can explore their emotions, break down, fall apart—and it's healthy," Brown said. "But guys are not allowed to fall apart." Ironically, she explained, men are often pressured to open up and talk about their feelings, and they are criticized for being emotionally walled-off; but if they get too real, they are met with revulsion. She recalled the first time she realized that she had been complicit in the shaming: "Holy Shit!" she said. "I am the patriarchy!"

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/messages-of-shame-are-organized-around-gender/275322/

The reason women cannot readily admit to contradictions that end up hurting others, such as telling men to be more vulnerable and then recoiling in disgust when they do, is they cannot face the public shame of being thought of as a bad person, one who hurts others. And without the ability to face their shame, they do not learn how to override these instinctual drives.

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-some-women-repulsed-by-male-vulnerability-as-discovered-by-Bren%C3%A9-Brown

[–]FuckURedditor 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]AndresGleamingChest 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well you should be communicating with them better.

Explain to them that it is not okay to berate any person for opening up, especially to close family members. Explain to them that both men and women have strong emotions and it is okay for both of them to display these. If you don't teach your daughter these things, no one else will and she will continue to think this is perfectly acceptable, you have to show her that a person can still be strong and cry, that masculinity and emotions are not mutually exclusive.

And your last statement is complete and utter bullshit. As a human being you are "allowed" any emotions that come your way, no one can tell you otherwise.

So no, I will never purposefully withhold my feelings from my loved ones. It is extraordinarily unhealthy for both your own mental health and your close relationships.

[+]YthreeK 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

You are describing a perfect world. The truth is, no woman wants a man who is as emotional as them. There are exceptions, but what you are saying does not apply to anything outside of like a long term relationship.

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I like how you come out swinging Andre.

Yes I have been, including a 5 year relationship where I was engaged.

You're not making nuanced distinctions here which is where your analysis falls short. Yes, you should absolutely be emotionally intimate, but there are parameters for how this needs to be done if it's to be successful.

Your attempts to prop yourself up with these faux-righteous insights that aren't based in reality -that I "view women as vaginas" (I don't) for instance are baseless. You're hearing what you want to hear. That is short hand for something that cuts through all the minutiae and bull shit; does it work or not work on a deeply primal, human level? I say the same thing to men -does it make you hard, or does it make you go limp?

I've had a lot of good relationships and am friends with a lot of women. This is just the reality of humanity though. Crying, by and large, turns women off.

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Maybe you've just gone through a lot more shit in your years than I have, but you seem to be saying that you've experienced tremendous emotions and wept because of them quite a few times, in front of friends and in front of girlfriends.

I think this might be a direction away from the norm, and reading your last sentence I do agree with you, but I wonder why you have let yourself show those emotions in the first place before you could trust them? I've learned that you get way less judgment from same sex friends than you would from opposite sexes. YOur male friends know what their thresholds are, and in turn will be judge you much less harshly than a female friend under the same circumstances.

If my best friend cried, I wouldn't think less of him, because there isn't anything there that constitutes him being able to protect me, or lose romantic interest or sexual attraction, because it wasn't ever there in the first place. We are mostly on the same plain of masculinity, we know the things we can take emotionally (I don't actually have a best friend like this now, but I have had friends in the past where this was true).

When a woman experiences emotions from you that differ wildly from the norm of what she has seen, her reaction could be understanding or not understanding at all. And I feel that comes down to emotional intelligence when it crosses the bounds of gender. A woman who has that emotional intelligence, and intelligence in general, can see through the "men can't cry ever or they are pussies" fallacy and should understand and embrace this kind of behavior when your legitimately trying times have caught up to you emotionally.

For the women who aren't intelligent enough to understand your situation, well, it's a different story.

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[+]DredFX 9 years ago* [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

I don't think it's as prevalent as it used to be, though. As someone with several sisters and who has met numerous women over the years, I'm finding that it's becoming more acceptable for men to be upset over genuinely trying circumstances.

Obviously, it still exists, and most of us have run into some women (and men) who've told us to man up after the family dog died or after we failed that crucial math test, but I'd like to believe that dissonant crap like what we've seen above isn't as brainwashing anymore.

[–]ExpendableOne 17 points18 points19 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ExpendableOne 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I consider myself a feminist. I have a ton of friends who would say the same of themselves. They would think that the article shitting on guys for crying is harmful for all.

I have known a lot of women who have called themselves feminists and who might have even agreed with this on principle, but who held men to completely different standards in their personal lives(basically "it's okay if men cry but I would never date/fuck a man who cries"). Those women also typically viewed this general social/cultural disdain for crying men as a "people hate men who cry because women cry and society really hates women" problem because that is the only way they could really justify the issue within their narrative, often completely oblivious or indifferent to how they treated men in their personal lives. A lot of these feminists were also often quickly to scream "white male tears!" at men, whenever seeing them essentially breaking down over pain, mistreatment or trauma they might have experienced in their lives(plenty of which directly resulting from feminist activism/inequality).

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[+]DredFX 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Before, "man up" would have been the only thing heard by men.

I can guarantee that most men on this sub and beyond can regale you with stories of women who also told them to man up.

Pretence can come from both genders.

[–]ExpendableOne 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not only that but, realistically, the vast majority of men wouldn't really care about another man telling him to "man up". Even if other men judged them negatively for it, they would take it with a grain of salt, because it doesn't really affect them in any real capacity(unless maybe in a professional setting). Constantly being judged by women for crying, however, actually does have a direct and tangible impact on men. It affects their romantic/sexual opportunities. It affects their capability to marry/reproduce. It affects their self-esteem and self-worth as they are directly judged by the opposite sex. It affects their social value, given that men are often judged by inherent worth to women(you can see this in virgin/nerd shaming too). When a large quantity of men tell you to man up, it's easy to tell them to fuck off. When a large quantity, or rather an overwhelming majority, of women tell you to men up, you either men up or further alienate yourself from those you love/desire.

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That is exceedingly rare across the globe. Don't ever let that reality be forgotten. Most of the time, women shame or leave men if they show emotion. It might not be right away, but it is often caused by that show of emotion. This has to do with biology, as does most of gendered behavior, but the fact remains this is the reality for the majority of human male-female relationships.

Thankfully, with the advent of gender equality, it's more okay both for women to be more masculine (in this case, this masculinity manifests as acceptance of emotional male expression), and for men to be more feminine (allow themselves to be emotional, and also to show that emotion outwardly).

The sexual revolution did a LOT right; it caused quite a bit of turmoil, too, but it definitely resulted in a lot of positivity and progressiveness. This is an example of early feminism (and, by extension, any gendered movement's push for actual equality) benefiting both genders.

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in hopes they catch the rare woman who happens to be feeling charitable that day.

That's kind of what I'm talking about. It's not charity, it's respect, open-mindedness, and sympathy or empathy. There is a reason pop culture is a thing--because it's popular. The popular opinion is that men need to be infallibly strong. The popular opinion is that women need to be domesticated, stay in the kitchen, and pop out babies. They're both terrible ideals and leave little room for individuality and growth. That's why I mentioned in my other comment that, in general, being vulnerable sucks. If women do it, we're being hysterical or clingy. If men do it, they're being effeminate and weak. It sucks. Both genders have really negative views about each other in various aspects and we all just need to learn to be more open and understanding about everyone.

[–]dungone 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not really sure where you are coming from on this. But let's agree on one thing: men don't owe it to you to approach you any different from any other women. Your unique views and perspectives don't make a difference in a society where the vast majority of women take a very dim view of men who are in the need of any sort of help.

The popular opinion

Men don't behave a certain way because "popular culture" tells them to. It's because they've tried to show their emotions and the pushback they got was caustic and unsympathetic. They had been castigated and they learned their lesson.

If women do it, we're being hysterical or clingy

This false equivalence just goes to show that you really don't understand the situation.

You don't really have sympathy or respect for men if you actually expect men to behave in a way that leads every other woman they might encounter (beside yourself) to abandon them. If you just looked at the situation - looked at men's behavior, looked at the rates of male vs female homelessness, male bs female suicide, etc., and stopped trying to blame this kind of think in men acting in accordance with popular culture, that would be respectful.

So to start, I would like it if you could realize that you are just one person and that men can't be expected to alter their behavior just on account of you.

[–]neart_roimh_laige 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Wow, so many things going on here.

First of all, I'm not saying I expect anything or deserve anything different. I was only trying to point out the fact that not all women view men who share their emotions with distain. My whole point was that I saw young men who were in dire need of help and did what I could to help them.

Isn't that exactly what I said though? Society expects men to act a certain way--women desire men who act that way--if men act otherwise, they're looked down on. All of this because that's the picture society has painted of what a man should be i.e. the popular opinion.

It's not false equivalency. There is just as much of a stigma against women for being emotional and being told we just need to "get over" something as there is for men to "grow a pair." Is it more acceptable for women to show their emotions? Yes. But we, often, are defined by them. If a woman is more stoic, she's a bitch, not just a women who's less emotional than the average.

I'm not in the least trying to blame pop culture alone for this issue. I'm merely saying that it's a huge part of the problem. Why do you think I'm in this sub to begin with? Because I recognize that there are battles men fight that get swept under the rug in favor of women (among other things.) I find that disgusting. I was also only trying to point out that not all women feel disgusted by male emotion and was backing it up with personal experience. I was not at all expecting any behavior to change, rather just was making a point. Maybe ask first next time before assuming my intentions.

[–]dungone 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]tempinator 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To be honest, while I believe you, you're in the minority.

It's not an overt thing, like I don't think girls will (usually) explicitly get turned off by a guy that cries. But I've found a majority of girls want someone who's stable and grounded, someone who has their shit together and is confident. That's the sort of personality type that they like and are attracted to.

Crying undermines all of those things.

I've cried in front of a couple girls before and while it didn't torpedo my relationships with them, I could tell it made them uncomfortable and sort of...disappointed, maybe? Like I wasn't what they thought I was.

I'm not a big crier, honestly I wish I cried more, it's such a cathartic experience, but every time I have opened up in that way to a girl it's been universally negative.

[–]SarahC 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

It's like with short men. When women are asked if short men should be treated the same way tall men should be treated, their answer is virtually always "ofcourse!", but then when you ask them "so would you ever date a short man?", they always answer in some variation of "ewww. no. never.". They don't see how these two sentiments conflict, how these predispositions affect men or how these personal negative predispositions stem from pre-existing social biases(which they are reinforcing/perpetuating).

It's the same thing with men showing emotion. When men show emotion and weakness, they are very quickly reprimanded and further emasculated, and they learn this lesson very early on(men who don't, simply make things harder, and more painful/traumatic, for themselves until the day they catch on). Feminism will then laugh at these problems or inequalities and then just legitimize the way women treat those men(because feminism isn't about equality but, rather, about prioritizing women and maintaining this victim/oppression narrative).

[–]OnTheSlope 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]kittens_and_cupcakes 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]gabblox 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

It makes you seem radical when you say things like "where one woman". I imagine you believe that not all men are the same, and different things do and don't appeal to different men. Perhaps you should not speak in absolutes about a gender that encompasses several billion people.

[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]IlII4 -13 points-12 points-11 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne 29 points30 points31 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]IlII4 -8 points-7 points-6 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Maybe you don't understand what patriarchy means, or maybe you are just misunderstanding how others are understanding it?

I posited that you misunderstand it because in your comment you asserted that because the article was written by a women, it couldn't possibly be patriarchal. That demonstrates a clear misunderstanding of what the term means.

Patriarchy theory, regardless of how it is upheld or reinforced, still assumes men in a position of power and authority, which is not only false(women have power and authority)

Here is a good, albeit slightly outdated, comment giving some statistics of the power balance in both politics and business in the US. It's clear that the majority of power in western society is held by men.

The fact that "women have power and authority" in a society does not mean that said society is not patriarchal. A patriarchal society is not simply one in which men hold literally 100% of the power.

but also contradictory(if women uphold and reinforce patriarchy, then they have power and there is no patriarchy)

As I said, women(as a class) do have power, but not as much power as men(as a class). (n.b., here I'm talking about men and women in the collective, I'm not referring to individuals)

harmful(calling it "patriarchy" only serves to further delegitimize and vilify men, and further victimize women at the hands of men).

Feminists do not use it to delegitimise or vilify men, only to describe the system in society which, on the whole, gives men the majority of the power.

[–]jrackow 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Santaball 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]IlII4 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

With regard to the fact that women make up a larger portion of the electorate than men, this would go back round to my point that everyone in society upholds patriarchal values to some extent, regardless of gender(yes, even feminists). A day before the US election, I heard a woman on the radio saying that while she wasn't voting for Trump because she felt he didn't espouse Christian values that she held, she wasn't voting for Clinton either because she didn't believe a woman should hold the office. This is a fairly extreme example, but a huge number of women hold similar views, but lesser in magnitude. Almost everyone is more likely to perceive a man as a leader than a woman because we have all grown up in a society in which most of the leaders we see have been men and where the qualities that we value in a leader(such as confidence, strength, stoicism, etc.) line up with male gender roles. Feminists believe we should critically examine these gender roles in society and how they reinforce patriarchy.

I'm not so familiar with the spending statistics or the arguments surrounding it - I've not personally read any of the studies that determined these stats so I'm afraid I can't give a good answer on it. I would implore you to ask a question on it over at /r/AskFeminists. I'd certainly be interested in seeing some discussion on the topic!

It's important to remember that while these patriarchal gender roles result in men obtaining the majority of the power in society, it does not mean that they don't have negative implications for many men. While the idea that men are unemotional and shouldn't cry means that the male ideal lines up with the ideal for a leader, it results in a lot of men feeling that they cannot properly express their feelings, which of course has a lot of negative effects(which I'm sure you are familiar with).

[–]Santaball 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]IlII4 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Forcing men to act like women or "express themselves" in the same way as men is damaging and counter productive.

I never said I would like to "force men to act like women", I would like for the restrictive male gender roles to be broken down. Using the image in the OP, the idea in society that men should cry is very harmful to lots of men. I, and the vast majority of feminists, would agree that the hypocrisy in the image in the OP is terrible and that the Daily Mail is a rag.

For the other point, so if the majority of the people have an idea that certain genders are better suited for certain tasks, why is it so important to change that, despite having no evidence that the outcome would be positive?

If society puts men and women into such restrictive boxes, it will result in many people not being able to be themselves. Looking back a couple hundred years in our own society, if a woman wanted to eschew raising children and have a job instead, there were some very restrictive barriers to this. Over the past two hundred years, feminism has been very successful in breaking down many of these barriers, resulting in a more fair and equal society. Of course, there is still a ways to go.

The same is true for men, which is literally what the image in the OP is complaining about. Many men feel restricted by these gender roles.

[–]Santaball 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Ok, here we go, wall of text! Thank you for reading it.

With regard to the fact that women make up a larger portion of the electorate than men, this would go back round to my point that everyone in society upholds patriarchal values to some extent, regardless of gender(yes, even feminists). A day before the US election, I heard a woman on the radio saying that while she wasn't voting for Trump because she felt he didn't espouse Christian values that she held, she wasn't voting for Clinton either because she didn't believe a woman should hold the office.

So basically this comes down to, yes women have the majority of the political power via voting, but since they don't vote or think the way I vote, then they are part of the patriarchy. Definition below, let me know if you see the contradiction.

Patriarchy is the term used to describe the society in which we live today, characterized by current and historic unequal power relations between women and men whereby women are systematically disadvantaged and oppressed http://londonfeministnetwork.org.uk/home/patriarchy

Sorry but for the spending stat I could only find this article that is fairly recent. I mean, honestly if you've ever been to a mall or shopping center the womens sections are generally much larger than the mens but lets not go with personal experience.

http://www.nielsen.com/us/en/insights/news/2013/u-s--women-control-the-purse-strings.html

If society puts men and women into such restrictive boxes, it will result in many people not being able to be themselves. Looking back a couple hundred years in our own society, if a woman wanted to eschew raising children and have a job instead, there were some very restrictive barriers to this. Over the past two hundred years, feminism has been very successful in breaking down many of these barriers, resulting in a more fair and equal society. Of course, there is still a ways to go.

I disagree with this. The reason men, in my opinion, are having more problems expressing their feelings because there are no more male spaces. Before feminism, men had clubs, golf courses and things where they could go and be men without the watchful eye of women. But now there are really no mens spaces. Maybe a strip club but that isn't really a male space. Also, there have always been women with jobs and careers before feminism. Yes, women did have to work harder (possibly) but it could be done. Most teachers were women, as were nurses, seamstresses, etc etc. I think the only difference between now and a couple of hundred years ago is that women now do not have the choice to stay home. Women now must work.

[–]Toparov-2 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]OnTheSlope 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]gryts 9 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

ooo so when my teacher tells the women in class to look at the men and assume that at least 1 of the 20 guys in there are rapists, she isn't actually calling me part of the patriarchy? The looks didn't make me feel good.

[–]buttermetestes 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[+]HoundDogs 9 years ago* [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

Is there some sort of correlation between men not talking about their feelings and male suicide?

I'm no scientist but I'd be in much more of a hurry to believe that men are killing themselves because they have:

-Seen the horrors of war

-Been emptied out by the "family" court system

-Lost their children in a bitter custody battle

-Realized that they were taught a false ideology instead of how to be a man so they're destined to be lonely the rest of their life.

Talk therapy is great and all, but I'd imagine that if you want to prevent male suicide, you might want to understand the reasons they get into such dark places to begin with.

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[+]Oe-P 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

False ideology?

[–]HoundDogs 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]zZE94 15 points16 points17 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]DredFX 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Let me guess: you both failed the semester.

[–]zZE94 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]mwobuddy 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

Single mothers have really fucked up a generation or two of men, because they actually listen to what their mothers tell them what women want. "nice, giving, generous, helpful, etc", then they do that and receive negative results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VM1UA0pCMQ

Skip to the part where he says that if you punish someone for doing something nice, they are not going to do it again, and if you punish them for lots of nice things they do, the relationship falls apart. We have a social relationship, a general one which extends to groups of people.

Men vs women, there's a relationship whereby guys have continued to think that being nice and doing the right things gets rewards, then they see PUA-type stuff actually get the rewards, then they turn bitter. They claim they can't get laid or get a girlfriend, while "assholes" do, and then they are shamed for "thinking they can act nice to get laid/a girlfriend", by those very same men and women who are getting laid, and GETTING LAID FOR SELFISH REASONS, E,.G. BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET IT, or getting a girlfriend/boyfriend for selfish reasons, .e.g. they want to get it.

The "nice guy" complainer is the antithesis of everything a woman wants because its a guy who is complaining that he's not thriving in the world, (getting laid or a girlfriend), and therefore not only is he worse because he can't succeed, he's even worse than that because he complains about it.

if you're a loser, stay quiet if you have testicles, because you're only going to make women hate you more.

[–]Potomato 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I am generally a nice person, and if i'm in a relationship, i make her my number 1 priority. Maybe i'm a little needy, but i never even kissed a girl or got laid till i was 21. Since then i have had 3 relationships. My most recent one, i fell in love with her, first girl i ever loved and told her i loved. I did everything i could for her, spent all my money and always made time if she needed anything. All i wanted in return is to have quality time with her. over time she answered her phone less and texted less, then after trying to see her for a month she texts me and says that she is engaged to her ex-boyfriend who she has been talking to the whole time we where together. I loved her and she told me that she loved me, she lied. Her fiance is a bum asshole who left her 3 times to go fuck other bitches. no future, no money. but here i am sleeping alone at night.

[–]mwobuddy 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]bolunez 9 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

Can we just start letting people feel how they want? We don't need to encourage people to cry about shit, or hide their feelings. Just let folks be themselves.

That said, I am getting a little tired of this bullshit public crying stuff. Seems to me that it's a result of parents who let their kids have their way if they threw a fit.

[–]ametalshard 24 points25 points26 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]bolunez 9 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Everywhere you look now, there's some moron crying over something and posting the video to social media.

You want to cry, fine. Bawling over something and making a point to show the world is just attention whoring.

[–]ametalshard 13 points14 points15 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]The1KrisRoB 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ametalshard 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]bolunez 9 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

What's your point? All I said was that I'm getting tired of it.

If you don't agree with that opinion, you're free to not read the post.

[–]Prometheus444 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ametalshard 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]bolunez 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

There's a difference between disputing your situation and actively making a point to cry into a camera.

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[+]DredFX 9 years ago* [recovered] (21 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps it's naivete on my part seeing as it's my first day visiting this place, but why would you be banned for posting on this subreddit?

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[–]SentientEnglishman 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ametalshard -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]SentientEnglishman 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Because you shouldn't be "solving" this problem. If people are racist then let the downvotes and moderation team deal with it on a case by case basis. It's too easy to control the message if you can just get a thread closed down by being racist. It's exactly the sort of chilling effect that KiA is meant to be against.

Reddit was perfectly fine before locking was a moderator power. Now it's just encouraging this place to become even more locked down, owned by a small group of elites, and ran like a old PHPBB style board with powermad little idealogical teenagers running it. It's unpleasant and drives away legitimate conversation.

If a topic doesn't belong in a sub then delete it outright. Locking leaves it there for everyone to see and pollutes the sub. I am not suggesting letting the sub have off topic topics, but the comments should be open discussion. We should welcome dissenting views in any sub's comments, and anyone being hostile should be banned for hostility. Disagreements and alternative viewpoints are not hostility of course.

I also see you're a mod of some subs, I do hope you see my point on this. I've moderated very large forums in the past and know from first hand experience how much effort it is, but know from it that abusing mod powers to save time or push a viewpoint is just damaging to everyone.

[–]ametalshard 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

If a topic doesn't belong in a sub then delete it outright.

Yeah... you think the mods are ideological teenagers? Wait till you delete alt-right content. You've never even fucking seen a teenager.

We should welcome dissenting views in any sub's comments

Sorry; I wasn't referring to comments. I'm referring to complete sub takeovers where the highest-voted posts are completely against the entire point of the sub, and the moderators are left helpless to deal with it. Like KiA going full-Trump, and /r/MensRights going anti-Men's Rights with their support of the alt-right homophobes and male-shamers (political horseshoe in full effect).

KiA didn't really have a choice. They could have decided to ban homophobia and racism, but then they would have had to ban thousands of accounts. It's not their job; they shouldn't be forced to sit there banning every alt-righter who had nowhere to go after CoonTown was deleted but then was emboldened with Trump's rise.

[–]contractor808 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Toparov 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Isn't the point in the article that they are crying about a reality tv show experience rather than something that matters? There is nothing wrong with crying but doing so at inane shit is a different issue, emotions are appropriate or inappropriate in their set context.

[–]EADGod 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Toparov-1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SpaceCowboy734 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Just less than a month apart.
Author	DredFX
Upvotes	5738
Comments	373
Date	December 12, 2016 12:31 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5hwcvj/just_less_than_a_month_apart/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/just-less-than-a-month-apart.935971 https://theredarchive.com/post/935971

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