Presentation at My School

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As an introvert 'independence' is a pretty high requirement for me aswell. It was your dismissal of the statement "the two become one" which imparted the most distress. While I can understand a separation of sorts during the period before children. Once you have them the assets which you were saving for alone time I feel would be better spent on the children. But what I am seeing is that these sorts of relationships result in parents trading time with their children and support for their children away as a means of maintaining that lifestyle. It is my belief that pooling your assets is a necessity for developing a lifestyle where you can give-up the 'you' and embrace 'we'. Because regardless of your sociological and/or political affiliation, I believe, that your ability to support them is paramount over all else. This does not include the projection of what ever values you may hold dear, because whatever you think is right, you cannot prove objectively as being so.

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[+]earl_sleek 14 years ago* [recovered] (26 children) | Copy Link

Why's that?

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[+]earl_sleek 14 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

That's not how I saw it, I thought it's for teaching women that men aren't ATMs but I have no context except for the picture.

[–]MrJAPoe 31 points32 points33 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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It absolutely does happen that husbands take charge of the finances to such a degree that wives doesn't get to participate, or build their skills, even though they want to. But it is rare these days, because most men are conscious of it and see why it is bad - thanks to feminism, mostly.

What is not rarer, is wives similarly taking charge of traditionally female domains, to the degree that husbands don't get to participate.

For some, like cooking, it's not such a big deal. For others, such as social activities, arrangements and purchases, it can really harm a man. Child rearing comes in a special category, since not only does getting pushed out out of that hurt the husband, it hurts the child also. To the degree that feminism has adressed this at all, it has done it far less efficiently, and thus far fewer women are conscious about it and see why it is bad.

[–]Alanna 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]imshane14 14 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

This sounds like a good presentation. Of course, it should be obvious, but it may save some men, and some women. I think this is pro mens rights.

[–]Aikidi 70 points71 points72 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]brandnew87 14 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Thank you for clarifying that (seriously). Pro mens' rights is pro human rights.

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In high school I had girlfriends, but in college I dated a girl who was easily the most attractive girl I've ever been with. Brought her home to thanksgiving to meet my family, and my mom would make little whispers about how beautiful she was, and how she's already hoping that it works out for us as a couple. Commented on her nice body, tan skin, beautiful face, which made me a little uncomfortable. Of course she called her "nice and sweet" as well, but it was very obvious she was absolutely caught up mostly on her appearance. And then over the next couple years while we were dating, whenever we had family or friends over she would always mention how "gorgeous" my girlfriend was, never failing to mention her good looks. Even female friends and my sister seemed to be very caught up on her appearance.

Sometimes I would think to myself..."but...she has a great personality, too!!! I don't just like her for her appearance!"

The whole relationship was a real eye-opener. Both in the objectified treatment of attractive women (from an outsiders perspective I would still say there are more positives than negatives), and also the judgement of me as a man based on how attractive my girlfriend is --my status went up immediately simply because I had a physically attractive girlfriend.

At the end of the day, as much as it sucks, I still think that most guys would prefer their daughters/sisters to marry a man with a solid job. And most girls would prefer their sons/brothers to marry an attractive girl. It's hard to uproot that biology.

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[–]ExpendableOne 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

How many women do you believe stop working after having children and how many of those do you think had that as part of their life plan all along? How many women do you think meet men and not only become depended very quickly but also come to expect a certain lifestyle that is provided by their partner's income? How common is it for women to accumulate a serious amount of dept(student loans, credit cards, etc) and then enter into a relationship with the intention of having her debt become "our debt"? How many women depend on the income, spousal support and child support payments of former, generally male, partners? How many women still go out on dates expecting the man, or the person taking on an initiator role(typically expected of men), to pay? How many women still expect that their man spend and spoil them? How many women dream of a big expensive wedding, for which a man still ends up picking the bill on? A lot of this stuff does happen and it happens a lot. Probably a lot more so in the older generations but that mentality is still absolutely present in younger women as well(I would argue unanimously even, considering all minor cases, the wishful dreamers and all the different cultures/religions where this type of mentality is still going strong). Even if this was still a small fraction of women, or even men, who still felt this way, it would be a worthwhile message.

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A friend of mine (happens to be gay) from high school ended up going to law school and being really successful, and eventually married a nice photographer/professor guy.

I was talking once to his new husband, with whom I was commiserating about the difficulties of making a living in the art world.

I asked what his advice was (since he's about a decade older than me and a professor at a respected art school) and he laughed, "Marry a rich lawyer!"

I was confused for a second, then realized he was talking about my friend, whom I've known since I was 15.

I felt really confused and strange. I felt suddenly sorry for my friend and offended this guy would see him that way, but also weird that this guy was so much older and was in a position of respect.

My views of maturity and fairness changed a lot that day.

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[–]nycjohndoe 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

if you'd pick up a history book you'd see again and again that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

history shows that of the men who framed the federal constitution and those in the the state houses which later ratified it, have multiple 'understandings of the nature of people'. the framers and founding peoples of the US were not some monolithic block. They were composed of various groups primarily concerned with maintaining their own local power through throwing off the yoke of foreign rule. It should be plainly apparent to any student of history in the hypocrisy and moral bankruptcy inherent in our founding declaration.

regardless of individual agendas, the genius of the system compromised and agreed upon is in its malleability and its recognition that mankind changes and the gov't must be adaptable through due process to reflect the current environment.

What do you think feminism is? It's the selfish instincts of women and the white-knight instincts of men acting through the unrestrained state resulting in the system we have today.

again i challenge your belief that the state is unrestrained. what is the MR movement if not a civil restraint on the state?

what do you think the MR movement is? is it the selfish instincts of men seeking to destroy the current social support system or is it a rational group of people who recognize injustice that can work toward direct effective and efficient solutions rather than spouting irrelevant appeals to authority or banal quotes?

[–]neilmcc 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

oncerned with maintaining their own local power

Sort of plays into my point, no? However flawed the men were, the underlying reasoning of a restrained state was right. How you suppose the men of this age, who are leagues below the founding fathers in character and intellect, are going to fix this broken system?

How is welfare good in any way for men or women? It has destroyed the social fabric (the family) in this country.

In 1940, the illegitimacy rate among blacks was 19 percent, in 1960, 22 percent, and today, it's 70 percent. Some argue that the state of the black family is the result of the legacy of slavery, discrimination and poverty. That has to be nonsense. A study of 1880 family structure in Philadelphia shows that three-quarters of black families were nuclear families, comprised of two parents and children. In New York City in 1925, 85 percent of kin-related black households had two parents. In fact, according to Herbert Gutman in "The Black Family in Slavery and Freedom: 1750-1925," "Five in six children under the age of 6 lived with both parents." Therefore, if one argues that what we see today is a result of a legacy of slavery, discrimination and poverty, what's the explanation for stronger black families at a time much closer to slavery — a time of much greater discrimination and of much greater poverty? I think that a good part of the answer is there were no welfare and Great Society programs.

link

Liberals have no place in the MRM. Welfare programs are the single most racist and destructive policies ever enacted since slavery. Similar trends can be seen among poorer white families of all races- Sweden, the mother of all welfare states, has illegitimacy rates comparable to blacks in this country. No MRM in their right mind would believe in preserving this system.

[–]bucketh3ad 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]bucketh3ad 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]nycjohndoe 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

strawman? Your statement was as follows

There is a way to take care of those who are struggling in our society without giving an incentive to women to get pregnant for financial gain.

you mention financial gain. I do have a problem with that and my point referring to that is valid.

child support can be and is exploited by some women for financial gain at the expense of wealthy fathers, and it is enforced by the state. That whole system is broken, bottom to top, even when it "works."

In restating your point you choose one aspect of divorce law exploited by a subset of parents and conclude that the whole system is broken. that generalization is flawed. The specific subset of exploiters can and should be eliminated by enacting smarter policies. which, atleast according to this sub-reddit, is beginning to happen thanks to a vocal/tech savvy subset of the MR movement and some clear thinking legislators, politicians and family courts.

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Title	Presentation at My School
Author	Bikeraman2
Upvotes	1244
Comments	255
Date	May 31, 2012 11:14 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ueolu/presentation_at_my_school/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/presentation-at-my-school.1020713 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020713

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