This girl gets it. | MensRights

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When in doubt switch female for white and male for black to see if something is discriminatory.

It does not work that way. Blacks dont care about number of whites in a bar (or even dont like them?), so more whites wont benefit them, they get higher price (harm) with no benefit. On the other hand, men care about number of women in a bar, and more women would benefit them, so their higher price is not harm, it is a voluntary payment for better service received. We need different treatment to satisfy different preferences.

Your analogy is flawed because it ignores that preferences of blacks / whites and men / women for the other race / sex are not the same, but in fact opposite (people either dont care about race, or generally feel better among members of their own race, but people in bars want members of opposite sex).

If blacks were sexually attracted only to whites (and vice versa), then your analogy would be spot-on.

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So... No, no it isn't illegal. Plastered throughout this thread is the assertion that charging different rates by gender is illegal because "gender is a protected class," but protected by what?

I'd assume what people are referencing is the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which extensively prohibits discrimination in employment and in pricing or accommodation by establishments receiving federal money; it also prohibits discrimination in hotels and restaurants (ie, can't tell someone there are no rooms for them because they're black).

Doesn't this protect men from price discrimination in any establishment? No it does not, because the federal government's authority in this area is derived through the Interstate Commerce clause (basically, the federal government may enact laws beyond its normal powers in areas necessary for keeping commerce between states running).

If you can't buy food, and you can't find a place to sleep, you can't be, say, an interstate truck driver; the impact of restaurants and hotels on interstate commerce is clear.

Concerts? Not so much. There could be a case for a lawsuit, but victory would hardly be assured. Off the top of your head, you can easily think of price disparities between men and women that no establishment would be worried about being sued for.

Off the top of my head, women pay more for haircuts most places, even if they want a man's style.

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The federal governments authority in this area is derived from the interstate commerce clause... The impact of restaurants and hotels on interstate commerce is clear. Concerts? Not so much.

This might be true under an ordinary person's definition of the interstate commerce clause. But under the expanded definition that is used to interpret the Constitution, this sort of activity is very clearly interstate commerce.

To quote Wikipedia,

Congressional use of the Commerce Clause has become slightly restricted again, being limited only to matters of trade (whether interstate or not) and production (whether commercial or not).

Relevant case law here includes Wickard v Filburn, which found that a person's production of wheat on his own land for his own consumption and not for resale is interstate commerce. Certainly the operation of a nightclub is far less tenuously interstate commerce than that.

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[–]_pH_ 42 points43 points44 points 12 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The same circumstances do not apply in this instance. You cannot argue that having a larger amount of white people in the venue would make it more attractive for other people to come to that same venue.the ladies night promotion is based solely around the entire heterosexual dating dynamic. The fact is that men pursue women and men who are interested in women will go to a venue that can reasonably guarantee that there will be available women attending. Ethnicity and race are not factors in this dynamic but sex is a definite factor in the entire courtship dynamic.

Therefore, in regards to the ladies night promotion it is a definite marketable factor and one that allows a certain degree of flexibility in the gender discrimination argument. But as I mentioned earlier, that is not what is going on here with the more than doubled fee for entry into a DJ set. Again, most bars and nightclubs only run such a reduced price promotion for a limited period of time and they do not run these for the entire night. Besides the illegality of running such a promotion for the entire night, the intention of this is to get as many women into the nightclub as quickly as possible which is the reason why most of these promotions end at either 10 or 11 o'clock.

Don't get me wrong; I understand where you're going with your argument. But you're barking up the wrong tree so to speak.

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Bam discrimination.

You just valued women more than men. Men are a dime a dozen are we? Women are rare and beautiful?

Bullshit.

Women are the majority in colleges and universities around the world. Women are in nearly every health club. Women are joining sports teams and womens leagues are popping up everywhere in every sport. Women are the majority of high school populations as well. Women often fill the audience at concerts and plays. Women patronize the arts. Women walk their dogs at the dog park. Women enjoy trivia nights at bars. Women go out after work with friends. Women are at the coffee shop. Women are on the buses and subways.

Tell me again how it is hard to see a woman in the wild. How hard access is to them. Just pardon me if I sputter with laughter at the claim.

Just wait a few years. I am in my 40's and the dynamic is nicely flipped. Women seek me out. I am happily in a long term relationship and my fitness instructor girlfriend is constantly worried about other single women because they learned.

Advice to men. Stay fit and starting looking seriously for a relationship when you are older. By then women have learned that this comment I am replying to is total horse shit.

[–]Maslo59 -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Women are the majority in colleges and universities around the world. Women are in nearly every health club. Women are joining sports teams and womens leagues are popping up everywhere in every sport. Women are the majority of high school populations as well. Women often fill the audience at concerts and plays. Women patronize the arts. Women walk their dogs at the dog park. Women enjoy trivia nights at bars. Women go out after work with friends. Women are at the coffee shop. Women are on the buses and subways.

Irrelevant. Is there more women than men in this particular club? If not, your point is moot and local value of a single woman customer would be greater than single man (and you said it yourself: "I am rarely at a bar with more women than men." So thats probably the case in this club too, assuming equal price).

Sorry if I dont want to wait into my wealthy 40s to pick up women, hence I value ladies nights clubs. If you dont like them, dont enter them, no one forces you to after all.

[–]Bascome 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't see how places to meet women are irrelevant to the value of meeting women. The more places to meet them, the less value meeting them at a single place holds.

Also I didn't say pick up women in your 40's I said wait for a serious one til then when they value themselves a bit less and you a bit more.

As for picking up women at your age? Well that is a different conversation.

I will give you one tip though on that front that I have never seen anywhere else and which worked for me regularly back in the day.

Always complement an attractive woman as you are leaving the bar. It goes like this.

You:"Hi, what's your name."

Her confused not sure she wants to tell you: "err um Vicky"

You:"Well, I was just on my way out (to a more interesting place if you are creative) but I wanted to tell you before I left that you really look nice, have a good night Vicky."

Now leave, don't look back.

If you ever see her or her friends at the same bar just smile at them. They will at the very least smile back, and if you are lucky they will actively seek you out or work on your behalf to get you laid by themselves or friends. Rarely (once ever for me out of dozens of times but I am very average looking) they will grab you, and ask you if they can come with you.

At the very least you come across as kind, attentive and selfless and make one girls night a little better who you never see again.

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That's a pretty stupid reasoning for justifying lower health care costs for women only. Yes I've had a period, and no it wasn't 'tougher' than any other mildly uncomfortable event. I understand some women have problems in that regard (PCOS, for one) but men also have their share of problems.

Using your tactic, ever have epididymitis? My husband was rolling around in bed in agony for a week, saying he felt like he was being kicked in the testicles over and over. Not an often enough occurrence? In that case - have you ever been kicked in the testicles? I surely haven't... a kick to my crotch and I would hurt, sure, but I could still continue on without much pain beyond the kick. Kick a guy and he could be down on the ground puking.

The point is, each gender have their own unique 'problem'. It's pretty stupid to suggest one gender has it worse in the grand scheme of things because of these. Each is subjective, and you can't really compare them. The only way I could ever say that maybe, maybe there should be a small pricing difference would be based on the fact that men statistically do not live as long as women, though I think the fact that men typically are the only ones taking more dangerous jobs (like logging) skew those numbers.

In the end, for every 'woman' problem there is a male problem and men and women should have to pay the same prices for insurance.

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There's all sorts of things wrong with your comment.

If the event became a notorious sausage-fest, I bet you'd see a decline in overall profitability.

Not likely, its an Armin Van Buuren show, people are going to fill in that place regardless. Its not going to affect it being sold out or not, it is going to however make them twice the profit on any dudes who come. What's more likely for internationally famous artist: they wanted to lower prices for girls so they get more people to buy tickets, or they wanted to make 50% more profit by doubling the prices for male admission?

And your attitude is basically "shut up and deal with it, because this is the way things are" which is a shitty attitude overall to have, especially in a forum where people are discussing equal treatment of the sexes.

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There doesn't need to be a 50/50 female/male ratio, nor is discrimination justified just because some guys are too scared or uncomfortable with the idea of having more guys around than girls. It really doesn't matter. If women don't want to go there of their own accords, or don't want to spend the money for the regular price tickets, that's their choice but the practice of gender price discrimination is still unacceptable. If justin bieber concerts were 500$ for women and 50$ for men, I'm sure a lot of women would be very upset by that too. If you had a hip-hop concert charge black people 300$ per ticket but 150$ for white people, that would be unacceptable too(especially if the only motivation for this was a general sense of disdain towards black people, because white people are given a greater social value the way women typically are or because black people want to have more white people around for their own entertainment). Equality of opportunity is far more important than the "equality" of outcome.

[–]philosarapter 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ExpendableOne -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Are you going to a show to see a show or just to leer at women? It really doesn't matter that it's a sausage fest, that's not what you're there for. Even if that was your purpose for going to a concert in the first place, if guys decide they no longer want to go to a concert because there's not enough women than that band obviously isn't that good, the price is too high or more women will be there simply by lieu of fewer men showing up(or because they want to leer at men). It's a self-balancing formula. Either way, heretosexual men can still have fun without there being more women around than men. Better yet though, why not address the initial issue of women not going to these events to begin with or even of not attracted to by the prospect of having more men there to interact with(something which primarily would stem from indifference or disdain, neither of which are particularly positive).

[–]spankaway 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

one of the prime draws is that there are acres of flesh on display.

Either way, you would get women showing up to these concerts but, realistically, that really shouldn't be your main appeal to go there in the first place either. There are a lot of other venues that cater and are better suited to that particular interest. If you really want to be spending that kind of money to leer at women, there are also strip clubs, bars, dance clubs, parties,etc. But, if the concert was that great to begin with, there would be women there too. Compensating for or paying the way for women to show up to concerts simply because you have a sexual interest in them isn't exactly healthy social behavior either(for either men or women). As much as any other heterosexual guy would appreciate a crowd full of women, it still doesn't really justify the discrimination to make it happen and there are plenty of other ways to allow it to happen naturally. Charging men extra to simulate a harem effect(penalizing a male majority to benefit the few) isn't really the best way to go about it.

not because of indifference or disdain, but because they get uncomfortable levels of attention.

So they react negatively to male attention or view male attention as something to be feared or offended by, how is that not indifference or disdain? If a guy received that kind of attention from women, do you think his immediate/natural reaction would be fear or discomfort? No, it wouldn't be, and women shouldn't be this negatively predisposed towards male attention either.

People are working so hard to get more women through the doors for a reason.

Based on what? Your word? Despite the fact that profit isn't everything and that social standards still need to apply, there's really no proof that getting more women through the door equals more profit. If you have a set number of tickets available and more men see it as a sausage fest, than it's reasonable to understand that you will either have other men who are okay with going for reasons other than meeting/ogling women or that you will have women purchase these tickets instead, therefor no longer being a sausage fest. If fewer men go, then women who are uncomfortable with men or male attention would also be more enticed to go.

[–]spankaway -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Either way, you would get women showing up to these concerts but, realistically, that really shouldn't be your main appeal to go there in the first place either. There are a lot of other venues that cater and are better suited to that particular interest. If you really want to be spending that kind of money to leer at women, there are also strip clubs, bars, dance clubs, parties,etc.

Is this where the disconnect is? There is a big overlap between a party and an EDM show. Hell, in my city they are actually called parties more often than not. For the purposes of this discussion it really makes more sense to look at this more like a party or a dance event with a famous DJ. And gender ratios are a big deal when it comes to everyone having fun at these things - and the way that girls dress there.

Charging men extra to simulate a harem effect(penalizing a male majority to benefit the few) isn't really the best way to go about it.

The harem effect? Nobody wants either a harem or a sausage-fest. Notice that the men's tickets are more expensive and are sold out, nobody is worried about there being too many women. They want a vaguely equal ratio because that makes these kinds of events more fun for everyone.

So they react negatively to male attention or view male attention as something to be feared or offended by, how is that not indifference or disdain? If a guy received that kind of attention from women, do you think his immediate/natural reaction would be fear or discomfort? No, it wouldn't be, and women shouldn't be this negatively predisposed towards male attention either.

In a perfect world...

I was going to write about how much it sucks to be a girl at an event when everyone is pumped up, drunk and on drugs, and there aren't enough women. Because it does, and there is such a thing as uncomfortable levels of constant attention. But it actually sucks for everyone. Guys start getting more competitive and aggressive, fights are more likely, etc. Hell, hanging out in mixed company in a bar where there aren't enough girls often becomes an exercise in frustration for everyone involved.

Frankly, at this point in my life, I become wary in any situation where there is alcohol, drugs, a lot of single men, and not enough women. Shit tends to be a lot more likely to happen. I'm generally in relationships, so I'm rarely out looking to meet women - I'm looking at this from the point of a healthy vibe and good times.

And to be honest in your role reversal, having to turn down a bunch of unattractive women all night long would actually be pretty uncomfortable and weird.

Based on what? Your word? Despite the fact that profit isn't everything and that social standards still need to apply, there's really no proof that getting more women through the door equals more profit.

It's pretty much accepted dogma in that world. And in my own experience you can simply see how much more money is spent at places where there are a lot of hot women.

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[–]MidnightMateor 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]2095conash 15 points16 points17 points 12 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

Catches my eye that the male tickets are sold out...... While I'm normally one who's all for economic values I think this may cross my line and be more 'criminal' (by my beliefs) perhaps.... I mean, I understand they only have a certain capacity for people together, but if we assume that the capacity is split 50/50 for women/men (which no guarantee, might be say 10 tickets for men and 90 for women iunno, I'm guessing they'd probably be more looking at a 50/50 split, or maybe even 33/66 to try to make the atmosphere more appealing allowing them to make money) having a limit on the tickets sold to each gender is a bit..... troublesome I would say.

Economically I think that it doesn't serve you at all, the fact that the male tickets are sold out means there's more demand than you gave a supply, which just seems.... stupid. You are intentionally selling certain 'spaces' so to say at half price because you don't want more men. Sure they might be trying to get a proper ratio, but if there's room for 100 people, 50 men show up, and 25 women show up (with 25 unsold tickets for women) your ratio is STILL screwed up, and now you basically turned away more or less 25 men (or so) worth of money on the basis that 'men are icky!'. Unless this is sorta a 'regular' thing and this week the men sorta bought their tickets 'earlier' unusually then this is just bad.

If they wanted to limit men to just 50 spots or so, then use better pricing things. Not saying that I approve of different prices for men and women, but I think that it says something that the men's tickets, despite being OVER twice the cost of the women's tickets, are sold out while the cheaper ones are not.

That said, this is a story nightclub from what I can tell, while I haven't exactly been to any of those myself I don't imagine it's full of men/women going to hook up with others, because I imagine the story would get in the way, as a RESULT of this I don't see any sound economic reason for people to price men and women differently, if they want the story they want the story, if they're taking their SO on a date again whatevs.

Sorry, I just see this screaming as either "BAD ECONOMICS" or "SEXIST" if not BOTH. Normally when it comes to bars and nightclubs I don't mind too much since dating environment leads to 'good' economics and sexist (add in general populace support and I believe the place that the sexism should be fought as dating culture rather than the clubs or blah), but this..... Ugh, even if this was a hookup sorta bar or something they should have the men priced more....

....... Though to be fair, for all I know there are only 2 women tickets left out of 1,000 total, which would in turn mean that there's not a 'huge' disparity between the ratio if all the people who currently bought tickets went, could just limit tickets as a means to ensure that like all the men don't get ahead of themselves (because maybe this is a PRIME hookup place in the area) and buy like 75% of the tickets, thus ruining the ratio, ruining the places reputation, losing their customers..... Iunno....

Sorry about my hugely long ramble, this just was just the first time that I saw what at least appears like such a..... 'disparity' not only between 'equality' and the business, but also what at least seems like bad business BECAUSE of the sexism which then turns it from 'unsightly but logical' into just 'bigoted'. Hope I didn't upset anyone with what I talked about, thank you for your time and hope you have a nice day!

[–]StoicSophist 2 points3 points4 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]2095conash -1 points0 points1 point 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I understand fully that this could be say they didn't expect demand to be this high so they didn't raise the price enough for it to equal supply, totally get that, I was trying to get at just how bad it seemed to me to both be making a cap on tickets for men/women AND charge different prices for them, I believe I sorta explained the general ideas I was getting at in more detail, wasn't scrutinizing them for this 'one' show so much as my best guesstimate as to how they show pricing/limits perhaps look based on that one image, in the second to last paragraph (since I REALLY got hugely rambling and was sorta working my thoughts out in that post) I admitted that there are COMPLETELY reasonable explanations for this sorta 'disparity' we see in the picture (of demand for womens vs mens tickets).

Still you are right, sorry that I didn't really use proper language to demonstrate that I do believe that and all. I'm ALSO sorry that you got such a big reply to a quick 2 sentence pointing out of fact. Thanks for your time and hope you have a good day!

[–]StoicSophist 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]2095conash 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]philosarapter 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]2095conash 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]philosarapter 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]2095conash 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

What I was saying is that you were getting upset about how supply and demand works rather than the discrimination which may or may not be going on.

And if the concert in any way was say an 'equality' concert, wherein black people payed money to have there be an equal number of white people as black people (as hookup culture that often takes place at clubs and bars has a harder time enticing women than it does men, so men are more willing to pay money if it means they get a guaranteed ration of 1 woman per man), then sure. They now have a 'logical' reason to separate the white and black tickets, not because they want fewer blacks in the bar NECESSARILY but because the black people will pay good money TO HAVE LIMITED BLACK PEOPLE IN THE BAR.

If the black tickets were sold out before the white tickets, even at say THREE times the cost, like if the white tickets cost $50, and the black tickets cost $150, and within 1 hour all the black tickets were bought, but after a week the white tickets STILL WEREN'T SOLD OUT. Guess what? That means THAT BLACK PEOPLE APPROVE OF WHAT'S GOING ON. Do all of them? No. Do all white people? No. But fact of the matter is, black people buying those tickets approve of that bar practice. If they didn't? They'd go somewhere else with their hard earned money.

Is discrimination going on here? Yes. Fact of the matter is that the men WANT the product despite the cost. Do you want it? No. Do I want it? No. But the fact that the men's tickets are sold out SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

You are getting upset about the supply vs demand going on and calling it sexist. Supply and demand is not sexist. The practice of separating tickets for men and women? Yes that's sexist. Is this event they're selling tickets for apart of hookup culture and thus 'benefits' from trying to force a ratio of how many men and women are there? I have no clue. All that I do know, you made it seem like the fact that they are gouging men for the men's ticket as if that's sexist, I'm sorry to tell you but the PRICE for the men's ticket is not sexist. MAYBE the price was picked for sexist reasons, however unless the owner goes to each of the men and explains that they're evil pigs and all, I'm sorry but the only person who feels oppressed (ignoring the other people in this thread other than the two of us) is you. And you're not even buying.

The practice of separating tickets for men and women is sexist. ONCE SEPARATED THOUGH, the 'demand' for the men's and women's tickets are different, as we can PLAINLY SEE, if they were the same then the women's tickets would sell out faster than the men's tickets (lower prices always increases demand for a product), but the men's tickets are sold out first despite being twice the cost, the demand for men's tickets is higher, as a result the principal of supply and demand determines the price for men's tickets will be higher than that of women's tickets.

The PRODUCT is sexist. The pricing is economics. To scream sexism at the latter rather than the former only serves to put us down the same line of thinking that resulted in the user account /u/Everything_Is_Rape and I feel we should strive to be above such thinking.

[–]philosarapter 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The practice of separating tickets for men and women? Yes that's sexist.

Ok I'm glad you agree with me...

All that I do know, you made it seem like the fact that they are gouging men for the men's ticket as if that's sexist, I'm sorry to tell you but the PRICE for the men's ticket is not sexist.

What... so the price isn't, making them separate tickets is. That's what I'm talking about! Making two separate categories of segregated tickets based on sex, is discriminatory. Charging different amounts for them is insulting, but not sexist. I agree with you there.

My bottom line is there shouldn't be a separate ticket depending on what gender you are. All fans should be able to enjoy the show without some bigwig telling you you have to buy THIS and not THAT ticket because you look a certain way....

[–]2095conash 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Okay, I am sorry, I misunderstood what you said. I UNDERSTAND why you were so angry, I figured that since you replied to what I said you were more of replying to what I said more so than venting your frustration and all (in addition to replying to what I was saying). I agree with you 100%.

That said I recognize that there is money to be made in these sexist practices, giving women free drinks at a bar during a certain time frame, clubs letting women in for free or at reduced prices, all of that entices single men looking to get laid because of hookup culture, there is a demand to have bars and clubs 'distort' the consumers of the venue so that the men/women ratio is more 50/50 rather than say the real 10/90 (or whatever the numbers are) that it actually is. I get that, and since there's a demand there WILL be a product whether legal or not.

Truly I think that to change this discriminatory and sexist practice we need to change hookup culture so that it's more equal, if it stops being so much distorted in the 'men after women' way and just becomes more about 'people', then there wouldn't be a demand for a distorted product because well, women would hunt for men in some places, men would hunt for women in some places, and so since there's 50% men and women it would become much harder for businesses to thrive off of hookup culture.

I don't LIKE these sexist practices mind you, I hate them and want to watch them BURN. But I recognize, my distaste for them doesn't change the fact that Joe across the street is willing to pay twice as much for beer if it means there's a woman 'for him' so to say in the bar.

[–]philosarapter 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Truly I think that to change this discriminatory and sexist practice we need to change hookup culture so that it's more equal, if it stops being so much distorted in the 'men after women' way and just becomes more about 'people',

Exactly and that is what makes me so angry. I'm a big fan of going to EDM concerts, and mostly what is popular there is this idea that everyone is welcome, everyone is weird and we should all love and respect everyone. It doesn't matter if its a whole 'sausagefest' of guys, the fact that they are all fans of the same music I am, creates a bond. Even if there isn't the possibility of hooking up with girls, I still enjoy making friends and its stupid that they would alter the balance of people coming in.

Let the crowd of fans naturally fill itself out... I see no reason why we should keep a bunch of men from going to one of their favorite artists because we are still waiting to fill 50 'girl' spots.

These sexist practices which encourage, what you call 'hookup culture' are exactly the scum that needs to get cut out of the equation.

I don't LIKE these sexist practices mind you, I hate them and want to watch them BURN. But I recognize, my distaste for them doesn't change the fact that Joe across the street is willing to pay twice as much for beer if it means there's a woman 'for him' so to say in the bar.

Yep exactly. I understand why it happens, I just don't agree with it. Especially for a concert. Let the fans see their artists... who cares what they have between their legs?

[–]2095conash 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I definitely agree with you, I find it immensely stupid that this is some sort of story club and they feel a need to more or less ensure a good hookup ratio. I mean I GET that there needs to be some place for hooking up to take place, because we all have sexual needs and probably a desire for a romantic partner, so I get that when you combine that with how hookup culture currently is it makes sense for clubs (that generally don't offer a huge experience in of themselves unless you like dancing, alcohol, or very loud music you can't control) or wherever it takes place to do it, but when it comes to say a concert that seems incredibly stupid to me, I mean you could have 100% guys there who'd still pay to come see the concert on the basis of the show, and with the music it's unlikely they're going to be hooking up and such there, as a result the set ticket amounts and prices seems...... bad economics given the 'experience' I imagine consumers are trying to get.

That said if this is just some sorta bar or club that isn't offering an experience in of itself, I would get that they are essentially offering the guys a chance to get laid so to say, which I also get is something that guys would pay good money for, the practice of the stuff they did with the tickets I just find distasteful (sexist too but nothing I feel government intervention or such would do anything but move where it happens) but the result of society, this specific event though.... Assuming they offer an experience beyond the chance to get laid, if they made one ticket category and priced it maybe at the guys price, they'd just make so much more money :/........

........ unless the women's tickets aren't so much for the guys to hook up but rather the performers >.>...... WHO KNOWS, if it's horribly bad economics they'll either correct it or go broke, if it's good economics being upset at this instance of the sexism (treating it as apart of the 'disease' so to say and not a symptom of the sexist dating culture we have) doesn't get anything done.

That said shakes fist in the air darn these sexist business practices! Haha, sorry for all my rambling, I hope I haven't taken up too much of your time or upset you too much (with my earlier posts). I hope that you have a great day!

[–]TheSkyward -5 points-4 points-3 points 12 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]StoicSophist 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]2095conash 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

To be fair, while the practice of charging women and men different amounts has nothing to do with feminism in clubs (rather for economic reasons) we're talking about ONE club here. An individual business MAY practice in discrimination (Not going to say this one is, merely stating a fact that an individual company is run by individuals, and may practice in discrimination to the point that it closes, but it is unreasonable to believe that all businesses even in a given area practice in discrimination for ideological reasons, just isn't profitable).

The only thing that really suggests there MIGHT be discrimination here, I repeat MIGHT, is the sorta.... 'redundancy' of stuff this place does to try to enforce the desired ratio of men to women (so long as we're not talking they only offer 10% of tickets to men and 90% to women and rather a far more 'reasonable' number like a 1:1 or even a 2:1 ratio between one gender and the other, a 9:1 ratio however suggest much disdain for one of the genders rather than any practical reason if not a club/bar for lesbians/gays). Having different costs would logically either increase/decrease the demand thus allowing them to moderate the ratio generally, the hard limit on tickets for men or women does give a 'hard' control of the ratio. That said, the difference in prices could be that once the hard limit is set, they try to maximize profit with set tickets by increasing price per ticket to reflect demand (as we can plainly see the men's tickets are MUCH more in demand, twice the cost but sold out first).

That said, I then look to the service charge and get a bit.... iffy. I'm sorry but I'm not club savvy (or at least story club savvy) enough to understand how women would require a service charge of $7.80, while men $12.50. Maybe men do something something requiring more service but as well with a controlled number of tickets and all you could average the service charges and still get the same paid service.... If it effects the women/men paying for tickets you just change the ticket cost to compensate.... Again, I don't have the needed info to judge if the service charge disparity is discrimination or based off of legitimate business stuff but it just..... doesn't sit right with me.

[–]StoicSophist 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]chakravanti93 -3 points-2 points-1 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It is, a bit. In your proposition, the movie is the product. In the club, you are the product.

So, in your example, it is discrimination directly equitable to say, promoting a white man over a black woman in the work force.

However, When you are the product it's different. Think of it more like, in the OP's scenario, that the prices are actually equitable. But you get a discount for bringing assets to the table. Those assets are sex.

I'm just saying, next time you click on porn, remember, that's sexual discrimination. I'm gonna throw a guess and say you've clicked on something that's racist to boot because you've clicked on more (insert your statistical porn viewing history here) than (the converse).

So you racist sexist pig. What? You're asexual? You're existentialist. You're discriminating against those that exist you sick fucking pervert.

(insert more asinine esoteric drivel here)

[–]kragshot 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Okay...don't use "gay" as an adjective for something being bad or unpleasant. That shit ain't even close to being cool. I have gay friends and family and they are awesome people. By associating "gay" with negative situations or things, you are diminishing and insulting them. Furthermore, you're insulting fellow MRM supporters who happen to be gay.

Now...on to your argument:

This is not the same thing as a simple "ladies night promotion" at a bar. From what I understand, this venue only does this when a big name DJ is showing up at the venues where they have acts. They don't do this with rock or pop acts.

What these promoters are doing is not "supply and demand" economics; it is highway robbery and they are getting away with it because there are people like you who are more than willing to shame anyone who calls bullshit on it. Based on your argument, then it is okay for big chain stores who set up in at risk communities to charge those same people more for basic subsistence goods because they'll pay it, right? Free market and supply and demand economics, right? Poor folks don't want to pay that much, then they can go elsewhere and shop, right?

And before you bring up the argument of "seeing a DJ isn't the same as buying basic living supplies," it is economic fairness and it is the same. A consumer should be able to pay a fair price for whatever goods or services they want to purchase regardless of whether they are subsistence or luxury goods and who or what they are should not make a difference in the price. One group paying more than twice the price as another group for the same item is not in any way fair unless there is a way for the person paying more to qualify for the discount. If I go to Tiffanys to buy my wife a diamond bracelet, they are not going to charge me more than an acknowledge rich guy because I'm not in the social elite. If I pull out 200 jars of pennies, they may not sell me that bracelet, but they are not going to raise the price of it.

Supply and demand is only a factor when everyone is paying the same price for a given item or service and that price is factored higher by the seller because he has control of the market. Discounting the prices for those items for a given group is only condonable when any person has the potential ability to become part of the group that receives the discount (i.e. military discounts). Is the promoter going to honor the discount for transvestites, men in drag, or born males who identify as females?

If all of the DJ promoters are doing this with these type of events, then they need to be called out on it and something needs to be done to regulate their pricing for these events.

[–]chakravanti93 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Gay, as in homosexual. Hence, litterally. Perhaps I should have said "male homosexual environment" to avoid confusion. Yet, in another thread I'm being chastized for being verbose but there I'm also rather extremely off topic so shrug you win some you lose some, I guess.

I dated a transgendered woman for three years, so IME, yes, they will likely give the discount to passable transgenders but probably not men in drag unless explicitly advertized.

Someone else responded with a mention of price adjustments in the topic converse re: Beiber. I consider that scenario to be equitable. Moral quandries such as exceptional nuances like these are quite interesting to discuss. I think the DJ in question probably demanded the scheme as a part of his service contract after failures with sausage festivals that ended before he spun his main mix.

Maybe you'de have an argument if it was just about exploiting for maximum profits but if the guy is just doing what he has to to make a living then who is really at fault for this scenario we're frustrated with?

I'm not anywhere saying I think that this is a 'positive thing' or people need to 'just get over it'. Rather I'm frustrated myself at the lack of intellectual depth applied by anyone. It's just a circle jerk to hate humanity. I mean I suppose I'm in the wrong place to bitch about that but there no solution being proposed besides a banhammer that will not solve any problems but rather eliminate the enitre successful business and it's venue.

But no, lets turn right around and mock christians for doing the same shit to birth control and related social issues with zero cognitive dissonance.

[–]WunderBoss 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]chakravanti93 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

You know what? I'm not gonna argue that it isn't discrimination. What I'd like to do though is ask if anyone has a practical way to make table stop wobbling without jamming a quarter under the uneven peg.

Let's say that you are all right and that this is an issue that should be forced into what I'll refer to as equanamity because I refuse to abuse and perpetuate classic misnomer. Maybe it's not even forced, but leveraged. Here's what happens, equal ticket pricing means no one buys tickets. Just looking at the pricing, as a man with money looking for a place packed with females looking for men with money, I'll move on to the club that does price this way off yof your radar. Just like a prohibited drug. What you do isn't creating equality. Rather, it is the criminalization of human demand.

I'm not arguing for it or against it. I'm simply saying that if you want to fix it, you have to address the truth of function, not the suffering you despise. It's like treating the cold with nyquil. You're not curing your cold, you're just helping yourself ignore the fact that you're sick.

That, if you'll attribute all this to actually being a problem.

Here's an idea. Do that converse and see it sell just as hot in an area where there are women with money looking for men who want it from them. Would that be sexist? Would it be "equal" if the same club hosted the same party in reverse on alternating weekends or locations? It would attract an entirely different market so I'd suggest that to maximize profits and potential the host start with the former and progress into the latter after analyzing results.

EDIT: Nevermind. Forget I said anything. Continue crying havoc, and let slip the dogs of war.

[–]kragshot 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm did not downvote you. In fact, I appreciate that you took the time to explain your viewpoint here and you did it far better here than your post above where you called everyone "gay" who supported fighting the problem.

In fact, I'm going to tell you a story about a club I worked at that had somebody legislate against the ladies night promotion and how me and another guy came up with a way to get around it. It's a bit lengthy, but I think you'll get a kick out of it.

Thursdays was this club's ladies night and we had a guy take the club to court claiming that it was discrimination. He won his case, but because of the ruling, our club began to suffer on Thursdays. This sucked double for me because I was the Thursday night resident DJ. I was pretty close with the bar owner (and dating his sister), so I negotiated a deal for me where I got a percentage of both the bar and the gate (yeah...I would almost murder somebody to get another deal like that). As a college student living on campus, that was a nice piece of change for me and it made life easier for my parents who were sending me weekly stipend to help me get along.

So, one night, three weeks into the ruling, while sitting up with some of the guys in the dorm; I was crying the blues about the fact that I was about to lose my sweet Thursday night gig. While we were shooting the shit, one of the guys mentioned that he used to be a male stripper and he was using the savings for his gig at home to help him here at school.

"D.C. Cab" was on the TV at the time (we were waiting for a game to come on) and we looked up at the scene where the cabbies were hanging out in front of the club that had the male strippers performing. Serendipity is a motherfucker. We both came to the same idea at the same time. My buddy started looking for folks to form a troupe, while I approached the club owner with the idea.

So what we did was to bring in the group of male strippers on Thursday night from 7 to 10PM and then we had the regular club night afterwards. Admission was the same for the old ladies night ($5.00 for ladies, $8.00 general admission) and we offered the same drink specials. The only difference was if you came in for the stripper show, then you got a pink wristband which qualified you for the drink specials.

Our ladies attendance and bar take on that night more than tripled. Of course the guy who brought the original suit against us tried to bring us back into court for violating the original court order. Our defense was simple; we did not violate the court order. The 7:00PM male strip show was not restricted; it was open admission. In fact, we brought pictures showing (gay) male patrons attending as well. He then brought up the drink specials and we replied that they were a "thank you" and a perk for the patrons who came to the bar early for the show and were available for any patrons who did. His followup was then to ask where was our "female strip show night." Again; the truth is an amazing thing.

"Your honor, we are neither licensed or zoned as a strip bar. Therefore, we can't bring in female strippers. Male strippers are not classified the same as females because there is no real legally-defined nudity involved in male exotic dancing as long as they keep their genitalia covered. Female stripping involves the dancers at the very least, baring their breasts and pasties do not constitute legal breast coverings in this state. If the city would be willing to change the zoning in our location and offer us a discounted rate on the necessary licensing, then we would be happy to bring in female dancers for male patrons. But as it stands, we can only offer our patrons what we are legally allowed to provide."

The judge gave us the "I see what you did there" look, shrugged his shoulders, and dismissed the case. "The law is a fair, but sometimes harsh mistress," the judge said. He turned to the guy who brought the suit and said; "You used the law to take something from this club owner; he used the law to get it back. He is only under obligation to fairly offer discounted admission to any patron regardless of sex. He does not have to offer entertainment that appeals to every sexual orientation. Mr. "Smith," if you want to get into that establishment on the cheap and get cheap drinks while there, then you are free to buy admission to their male dancer show." At that point, the club owner walked over to the guy and gave him a stack of drink tickets and told him that he would be on "the owner's list" for a year.

Good times...good times. After pulling that off, he upped my cut to 5% on both gate and bar. I was living fat for a while! It's a shame that two years later, the guy lost the whole shebang due to tax evasion.

What's the point of this story?

You are completely right; if somebody wants to pay for something, then they'll find a way to pay for it. But again, what the concert promoters here are doing is not the same thing as the ladies night bar promotion simply because of the cost, the duration, and the product being offered. At our ladies night and our stripper night, the club reverted to a general admission price for all patrons after 10PM.

But here's the bigger issue; in a ladies night promotion, the "product" being offered to the ladies is discounted entry before a given time and discounted drinks for the evening. The "product being offered" to the men is potential access to a greater number of ladies throughout the evening. But in regards to the event in question; the product being offered across the board to all patrons is "Armin Van Buren." There is no other value being offered to either sex.

Why should female patrons have cheaper access to DJ Armin Van Buren than male patrons? Are women bigger fans of Van Buren than men? Is this a rider on Van Buren's contract that he needs to have a guarantee of "X percentage of female attendees" at each show? I'm pretty sure that we can say that the answer to all of these questions is a resounding "no."

There is nothing wrong with "maximizing profits" based upon a given demographic but there is a line where "maximizing profits becomes profiteering" and it is pretty obvious that this and other promoters like this one has definitely crossed it.

[–]chakravanti93 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kragshot 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Not quite true.

Marketing to racists is not the same as marketing to sexes. Men across the board will indulge in supporting the "ladies night promotion," because nearly all single heterosexual males want to patronize a venue that has a sustainable quantity of "allegedly" single females in attendance.

Depending on the kind of white racist you have, he or she may be pleased that there is a non-white attending the event in question because that non-white will offer him or her an opportunity to indulge in their hate. But more importantly, you can't market to a negative. African Americans are a distinct minority in the entire demographic of country music fans. A "white's only night" at a C&W bar is only going to cause the promoter to lose money because he's going to make less money from the patrons who probably would attend the bar anyway and if some of those patrons are anti-racist, then they would possibly stop going.

Now following that argument, if you did a "whites night" at a hip hop club where you offered white patrons discounted admission and drinks, then you might have something, especially considering the demographic breakdown of whites vs blacks as hip hop fans. With that being said, you'll probably get away with that once at that venue before losing your entire black customer base. But and just to be clear, if you did a "black's night" at a hip hop club, Polish night at a polish club, etc... you would get the same results as the C&W bar.

But with that being said; you do realize that all of the above-mentioned bars do "ladies night" promotions, right?

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But baiting women and charging men for the "privilege" to be at the same venue is just strange to me.

Call the elephant in the room an elephant, eh? You are completely correct in that mindset. When you look at it objectively, it is very bizarre that women customers are also seen as a marketable commodity for the same venue that they are paying to patronize.

Let's just be blatant; you as a woman are paying a discounted amount to get into this club for a "ladies night promotion." But it isn't truly "discounted" as in turn by accepting the "discounted" admission and patronizing the club on that night, you are allowing the club owner to "potentially whore you out" for that night to any of the male customers who are coming into the club for the regular admission. And if a guy meets a girl that night in the club and "gets lucky," then effectively, he's paid for that night's sex. If he buys the girl drinks that leads up to that sex, then it's just tips for the both the bar and the girl.

Scary as fuck when it's put like that, isn't it? Just like "Naked Lunch;" when you can see the entire reality surrounding what is at the end of your fork before you put it in your mouth. And trust me; it's just as disgusting for me as a guy.

But the problem is that both men and women are willing, if ignorant participants in this and have always been. In our allegedly sexually-liberated society (yeah, right), men and women want and seek each other out for sex. Bars and nightclubs are simply the brokerage houses where the two parties can meet up and facilitate the deal.

But then and again; how many people truly meet somebody that they end up actually dating for an extended period of time at a nightclub or a bar? This is generalizing as all hell but let's be real; bars and nightclubs are for hookups. You're not going to bring bar boy/girl home to mom and dad, right?

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I have a question; are these pre-admission tickets or is this general admission? If these are general admission tickets then I could see the problem. Many venues will often retain a number of general admission tickets for an event. If this is the case then most of the general tickets will be at one uniform price.

However, if the venue is flat out and completely charging a different price for men and women with the intent of maintaining that price for the entire event, then you have the grounds for a definite discrimination based on gender.his isn't the same as the issues discussed regarding ladies night promotions at bars and nightclubs. Most venues that employ this particular promotion only do it for a limited period of time during the entire night of business.

Here in Illinois, bars and nightclubs that use the ladies night promotion or any other sort of reduced price promotion can only do so until 11 PM. After that time the event if it's being charged has to offer a general admission price. The only exception to that rule is if the venue offers some sort of membership-based discount. Some high-profile nightclubs will offer patrons a card which will allow them either general discounted admission or free entry before the 11 o'clock cutoff.

But even so, this is a very blatant example of sex-based discrimination and someone should definitely look into this and examine the legality of such a very blatant price difference. It is one thing to charge an additional 10 maybe even $20 on a ticket like that. To charge more than double the admission price for male patrons is more than heinous; it is downright criminal.

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Title	This girl gets it.
Author	deadclaymore
Upvotes	448
Comments	294
Date	December 16, 2013 2:49 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1sz8fb/this_girl_gets_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-girl-gets-it.1156057 https://theredarchive.com/post/1156057

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