When talking about consent— Why doesn’t the discussion extend to consent to have my child.

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That's one right not all, as pointed above, you can get brithcontrol and have control over yourself no problem. Also that's an issue that men and women both face to varying degrees since Roe v Wade is under attack women don't really have that right much either. Also woth consent to pregancy there very much are differences since a person with a uterus carries the child and a person with testes does not. So like if a man wants kids and a woman doesn't then if he forces her to carry he's infringing on her rights. Seems like this is something we're all kind of jnto together rather than the West hates men thats being framed. As far as vasectomies only legal restriction is you need to be at least 18, it can be denied if there are underlying health conditions that could adversely affect them, only point is that somedoctors might refuse if the feel the perosn is to young to consent and might regret it later which those same doctors also would do to a woman so not the west hating men just outdated ideas on parent hood that affect men and women again were all kind of in this together.

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Yes it does all the time, stealthing is a big problem, and as mentioned abortion acces is pretty much non existence now or heavily restricted so many women are forced to carry to term. You can address mens rights without ignoring reality and being sexist towards women. Abusive men get women pregnant to get them to stay with them, and abusive women get pregnant to get the guy to stay with them both happen and both should be addressed. It's a legal and social issues that hurts everyone so bringing down women isn't going to help anyone. It's like when I get in arguments with people about BLM an anti police violence movement, they'll say well white people get shot too or more often, or that BLM doesn't care when white people get shot when that's false since it's a broader anti police violence movement that will help all people. And then when it comes time to fight against police violence they do nothing at best or lick the boots of the police force and run over protesters of police violence. Like here it's always well what about men why don't mens issues get taken seriously snd then it's followed by all women are liars that are put to get you, almost all the rape allegations women say are false, women want to destroy society and men and then absolutely no community action or protests or anything that would actually move society forward and better things for men.

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You can refrain from coitus.

Edit to add:

So many downvotes for sound logic. Tsk tsk.

Males are incapable of gestation. A male has no need for preventing the debilitation caused by gestation within his own body, as he is incapable of gestation. Even if you dress up in such a way that mimics the socially-established aesthetics of femininity, you will still never have a capacity to gestate. You're only - if capable of anything - capable of insemination. It would follow, logically, that - if concerned about your reproductive agency - you'd favor the research and development of tools for hindering your capacity for insemination.

If the conservative people of the 60s cared about sexual agency, they wouldn't have argued for inaccess to contraceptives, but rather for an expansion of them.

Males are not and never have been (to my knowledge) popularly advocating for development of and access to male contraceptives, therefore I have my doubts this discussion is really about the sexual agency of the male. If he is not fighting for a contraceptive he can take - the way females fought for their's - he is opting, then, to be relegated only to abstinence as an option.

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Males are not and never have been (to my knowledge) popularly advocating for development of and access to male contraceptives

Ya, except for here, and in all MRM spaces whenever and wherever they pop up. Would love a safe and reversible birth control, and for cunts to stop pretending a permanent sterility procedure counted as one.

Males are incapable of gestation.

This is irrelevant, as males are still legally and societally held responsible for providing for that offspring for 18+ years. Something women are not, given how safe haven and abandonment laws are written. So women have fucking tons of choices to have sex while avoiding pregnancy and the consequences that brings, while men have effectively none.

And quit with the "well men don't get pregnant" bullshit. Not only is it irrelevant, it's downright maliciously obtuse. 18 years of financial obligation backed by the violence of the state isn't trivial, and given how pampered and taken care of women are during the entirety of their pregnancy, i'd argue it's more burdensome than the actual gestation. So fuck off.

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[–]SadSorrySackOShip-2 points 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cause men fucking scabbed.

Scabbing is when you undermine a union and negotiation. Men over and fucking over again refused to unite with women against the state, in exchange for the state tossing them some measly breadcrumbs. Who fought for workplace safety but the mothers sisters and daughters of men? Who pressed men to demand better wages and better conditions for health such that a family might flourish? Who lead the campaign against male infant genital mutilation but mothers and feminists? You dumb ungrateful little pissants. Still crying against women instead of uniting with them. Men beated their wives. The state shipped boys off to Vietnam and when they came back broken and distraught, instead of killing the political leaders who sent them, they beat their wives and children. Then what they do? Complained about divorce. The multigenerational trauma plaguing those to follow came for COWARDICE. That's just one example of many of men letting themselves down. Ask any doctor who requests boys dicks get snipped; the dads do. So they "can match". Meanwhile mothers sob as they hear their babies scream. So tired of you whiny aint-gon-do-shit babies fussing like you missed your midday nap, when you're motherfucking grown ass adults who surely know how to read a book. If you gave a single fuck about men's rights you'd be educated on your nation's history. You'd be concerned about how many men - not to mention women and children - die now under u.s. imperialist rule and are going to die when Russia employs its nuclear weapons against us because our state is entirely okay with us dying if it can extend its military contracts and pursue imperialism just a wittle wee bit longer.

And don't worry there's a special place in our hearts for the traitorous, Capitalist woman. We're sending her right to hell too. So don't you think your sex is being singled out solely. I'm only addressing male cowardice because men are employed by the state to scab EN MASSE. How were men convinced to scab / fight against Socialism? Why, simple. They were told women would be liberated from servitude. Bada bing bada boom! That's all it took to get men to dig their own graves. Now look at you dummies, millions of you in incarceration facilities county state and federal. Millions of you homeless. Loveless. Broke. Futureless. Unemployed, underpaid, used and abused. Can't even comfortably rear a spawn, so you're all but castrated too. And still you steady stay keeping falling for the same trick the state has been using on men the whole time since the first Red Scare. Oooo look out boyos, the scawy femimists are coming! Them and their buddies the blax n gayz! Look out! Lol. They're here to rob you! :0

And like lemmings you all turn ur heads at the same time whilst uncle sam reaches in your pocket. He could have his hand clear up your asshole operating ur mouth like a puppeteer and still you'd blame women for the pain in your ass. It's truly fucking breathtaking. I've been studying this for two decades and still I'm struck with disbelief.

Like it wasn't your fuggin grandaddies who sold you - who sold ALL of us - out.

It's a level of stupidity truly second to none. Runner up to this idiocy is the stupidass women who copulate with you despite how fucking ineffectual and pathetic and worthless as fathers and revolutionaries you are. They, too, deserve ridicule, those mentally deficient harlots.

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Females gestate children males do not. Females nurse children males do not except in select gatherer-hunter societies and maybe more which no longer exist so we don't know about them. The relationship between mother and child is essential to all life on Earth therefore they are grouped together. Throughout the entire animal kingdom, and particularly among mammals, the task of rearing offspring is delegated in primacy to the female by material conditions. In many mammalian species males are excommunicated upon puberty. If males were the primary rearers of offspring and females were the party to be most frequently excommunicated upon puberty I would be more apt to group together "men and children." When you look at the world it is more often adult females and children cohabitating than it is adult males and children. This is true of the whole animal world, including in the world of the animals called humans. Adult males are relatively dispensable, being that aside from supplying secondary parental investment (or in the case of humans, complex social functions indirectly related to parental investment) they serve only to supply genetic diversity into a species. Those creatures which reproduce asexually are female. There is no species which can produce offspring as a male without a female. Males are an aberration from the norm. And that's not a bad thing so don't take it as a negative connotation it's just material reality.

In short women and children are grouped together because women birth children. Men sire children but that's not nearly anything like growing a person inside of your body.

That you thought the relationship has something to do with women being children only speaks to your silly and irrational brain. Adult males have a significant size and torque advantage over adult females and prepubesent males. If adult males wish to, they can disenfranchise adult females and younger males with relative ease. So it's intellectually dishonest to say "wOmEn cAn pRoViDe fOr tHemSelVeS aS gOoD aS MeN.". In the absence of men, yes. Most adult females throughout the animal kingdom fare just fine going solo or in packs hosting only adult females and young offspring. But where adult males are present, resources are more scarce (adult males require more caloric intake) and there exist threats of injury and death, to one's self and to one's offspring. (Hence - among other reasons - their swift excommunication upon puberty). This process incidentally promotes outbreeding. The same is not true in the reverse; adult males in the animal kingdom don't generally face threats to life and limb by adult females unless they initiate unwelcome pursuit. So the 'abilities' are not equal. Females are very much disabled by their material conditions, such as suffering a smaller build and less capacity for torque, and enduring limited mobility whilst gestating. Males endure no such limitation as that suffered in gestating. That's how you got cultural dictates regarding treating women and children with tenderness and care. Humans are trying to not be beasts. It was never about women and children being inferior the way Western men sickeningly wish to imagine. Lol. Ya'll long for superiority so desperately I almost feel bad for you.

It's theorized this attempted exit from the animal kingdom is why humans are so war-prone. There's an impetus to cut down the population of adult males. Even adult males want adult males dead lol they kill themselves and each other in droves. Now they're cutting off their dingalings. I really hope they figure their shit out.

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Its not irrelevant given the other adult and I are discussing the state as a coercion point. Capitalism is absolutely relevant. If we lived under, say, Feudalism, and men were striving for change (as was, indeed, the case under Feudalism) then Feudalism would be relevant to the fucking conversation. We live under Capitalism now and ya'll are unhappy af with your present conditions. But you don't want to talk about Capitalism? Ok go grab your baba and lay down while the adults talk.

He said MRAs don't cuck for the state. But to that I say LOL. He said I know fuckall about MRAs so let's let him educate me, shall we?

I mean look at you cucking right now. Trying to shut down the conversation. I might as well rest my case because you're a perfect specimen. You didn't even engage you just tried to shut the exchange down with smug dismissiveness like that'll fucking work hahahahaha.

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Oh wait, what? You made comments on topics you know knotting about? SHOCKING!

Wait, you took one anonymous persons post as gospel because you could bend their statement to fit your narrative? No way.

You supported a medical procedure that affected men and men alone with zero understanding because it didn’t affect the gender you identify with? That’s a fucking surprise.

You didn’t want to engage in “straw men” something or other so you just cherry picked shit that fit your agenda. Duh, who would have seen that coming?

Your original point “dudes are being awfully quiet about their contraceptives access.” is 100% fucking wrong and ignorant as shit. You really should spend 10 seconds online other than looking for an argument on Reddit before you open your ignorant ducking mouth.

Men have absolutely been researching make contraceptives. So far the only viable hormonal contraceptives have resulted in increases male depression, increases male suicide, and increases infertility.

Men have been looking for a way to prevent them from getting forced into raising kids that aren’t theirs and paying for kids they don’t want longer than women have even wanted to fucking vote.

Read a fucking book.

https://www.malecontraceptive.org

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I just like logic. I'm glad you acknowledge that it's logical.

Meanwhile, males are incapable of gestation. A male has no need for preventing the debilitation caused by gestation within his own body, as he is incapable of gestation. Even if you dress up in such a way that mimics the socially-established aesthetics of femininity, you will still never have a capacity to gestate. You're only - if capable of anything - capable of insemination. It would follow, logically, that - if concerned about your reproductive agency - you'd favor the research and development of tools for hindering your capacity for insemination.

If those people to whom u refer in the 60s cared about sexual agency, they wouldn't have argued for inaccess to contraceptives, but rather for an expansion of them.

Males are not and never have been (to my knowledge) popularly advocating for development of and access to male contraceptives, therefore I have my doubts this discussion is really about the sexual agency of the male. If he is not fighting for a contraceptive he can take - the way females fought for their's - he is opting, then, to be relegated only to abstinence as an option.

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I've never once thought men and woman are equal, as males and females are different. Males - if so predisposed - inseminate, whilst females - if so predisposed - gestate. There is nothing equal about that. So I can't fucking fathom what you mean by "treated equally".

Males and females have diametrically opposed interests as well as mutual interests. They interact with environmental stimuli differently. If you aren't hip to that, maybe go live on a farm for a bit. What makes humans special is the agreement between males and females on communal and cooperative parenting. When dudes got all obsessed with their own jizzum-magic, and decided that communal parenting wasn't their bag anymore, and thought they are God's gift to green Earth (or are in fact themselves God incarnate!), the human condition went to utter shite. There is no "treat equally" when someone breaks a sensible and fair contract. There exists nothing but an impetus to correct the flaw.

Males are an aberration from the norm. The purpose of the male is to supply genetic diversity to a species so that females can hedge better bets against real-world vagaries. Some females thought it'd be a good idea incorporate males into the rearing of spawn. Human females especially thought that was a good idea. Whoops! Now there's nukes e'rewhere n we all might die! Haha

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Communal and cooperative parenting was the lifestyle for humans for 300,000+ years. Whether or not you breed you'd be raising kids.

Land cultivation didn't become a primary method of subsistence until just about 10,000 years ago. With land cultivation came concepts of land-rights and with those concepts co-evolved concepts of property. When men took to viewing women and children as property communal cooperative parenting took a backseat to patrilineal descent.

Patrilineal descent was fucking dumb because unlike matrilineal descent it can't be traced without aggressive and intrusive measures - there's no fucking doubt what snatch a spawn came out of. Determining which spermz cracked the code, on the other hand, means reverting back to monkey shit like mate-guarding and infanticide.

This is what is meant by "Eve" causing "The Fall of Man". Female humans told male humans that fucking is where babies come from, and that as such he who fucks has some duty to raise spawn. (This was the "fruit" of the "tree of knowledge" - fruit being of course representive of fertility, implying knowledge of paternity). This possessing of "divine" knowledge worked out for many millenia but then backfired when "Man" decided there should be no duty without glory. The Abrahamic religions document this progression of thought.

Probably women offered men glory hoping to have their own spawn granted extra favor .. basically being like "this one's YOURS, unlike THAT ONE, so on the sly you should give this one more meat!"

I'm imagining that the females were thrilled with the status that came with mating with those who took part in land-ownership. As nomadic and semi-nomadic peoples, a female could only gestate but so many times. It's impractical to have more spawn than you can physically carry. A band's mobility would be inhibited by an abundance of infants, since humans offspring don't fucking walk or have any self-sufficiency until some years have passed. By becoming stationary, a female would be granted liberty to have more spawn. A tempting prospect! This backfired because having upwards of two spawn became the new social standard in farming communities and that eventually became codified in religions. Aggressive breeding became key to survival, since a larger family was better equipped to cultivate and guard their claimed plots of land. Being that for so many millenia human females averaged only 2 spawn per lifetime, a jump to a new average of 7 spawn per lifetime (it's gone back down again, but during the Neolithic Revolution such was the norm) is stressful upon the female body. Maternal mortality increased. And the diminished nutrition and increased instance of disease and violence conferred to a people by stationary living meant spawn became more likely to die. You could have 7 spawn but only live to see 2 survive. Meanwhile being impregnated meant limited individual mobility, so if a female wanted to leave the farm she'd have quite a lot of trouble doing so. Females became of a status something like that of domesticated beast. ("Eve"'s "punishment" for the "sin" of sharing the "fruit of knowledge" with proverbial "Adam")

Nutritional deficiencies arose due to dependence upon crops, which lacked the nutritional diversity enjoyed by those who move from place to place. This was counter-balanced by an increased access to meat. Gatherer-hunter societies relied most upon trapping small game for their meat intake. Animal husbandry, in contrast, allowed for meat cultivation. Meat offers nutrition essential to gestation - protein and iron, for example. So from the viewpoint of a woman who wants to breed, life on the farm sounds pretty great on paper. It just turned out in practice its pretty shitty. This motion to favor farming over gather-hunting was the departure from "Eden".

Homos and asexuals traditionally served essential survival function to a species because if everyone breeds, a population will outpace its food sources. Also non-breeders are needed to attend to the development of related spawn (see: kin-selection theory). The Abrahamic religions demonized homosexuality because aggressive breeding was a key component of the spirit of the times - with nutritional deficiencies from reliance on monocrops, disease from rapid population increases paired with poor sanitation, violent crime for the same reasons (in larger populations its harder to hold transgressors accountable), and the proliferation of warfare consequent to disputes over land-access, the only measure available to ensure a society's prevailing was to just outbreed other societies. If you weren't fucking and popping out spawn, you were basically a traitor to your society.

You can see this thinking persists today in the 21st century.

So yeah for like 300,000+ years dudes didn't mind raising each others spawn and bitches didn't mind not having a washing machine.

For clarification once more, het or homo, for hundreds of thousands of years all adults (among humans) parented. Parenting was communal and cooperative - in the roaming GH bands, all spawn considered all adults to be their mom and dad, and all adults considered all spawn to be their spawn. The sharpening of this development called "culture" is what set us apart from other primates.

Arguably that's why humans got to be so adaptable; when females are free to select their mates (informed by environmental stimuli), and the ensuing spawn are successfully raised to adulthood, a species adapts exceedingly well. We are the only mammal on Earth to inhabit every corner of the globe. We inhabit everywhere irrespective of climate, geography, and zoology. Huzzah!

And now we're the only species capable of busting a nuclear nut from phallic missile launchers which can murk all life on Earth. Lulz. It was foretold, I guess..

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[–]SadSorrySackOShip1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Cool story, bro. I'd be remiss if I pretended to care.

If I ruled the world, you could (consensually, of course) suck n fuck n cuddle all the same-sexed people you want to your heart's content. You'd be unconcerned with the matter of words cause you'd actually have freedom and autonomy, without fear of violent reprisal. Such is the difference between rhetoric and act. We don't live in a world that honors homosexuality for the great gift to mankind that it is, so every day you're going to have your feelings hurt.

If homo-hating ("homophobic" as they're called) people called gay people - in the spirit of their vitriol - chickens, or doors, or booberries, you'd find those words insulting. Homo is a shortening of the word homosexual - homo means same - and that's how I meant it and is the only way I've ever used it. Similarly I called heterosexuals, in that very same comment, "hets". All that being said, I'm not a protector of feelings. I called women bitches in my comment, too. I wish you better confidence going forward. If someone levels a slur at you, beat them up. That's what I do and is what I always recommend.

When the words of violence are changed over and over and over again in the lexicon, whilst the violence persists, you gotta eventually address the later issue. Slurs for homosexual people exist only because violence against homosexual people exists. Yet everyone n their mother will tell you those conditions arise in the reverse! The reason that the powers that be want you to believe that words give rise to violence is because they want you to keep battling words instead of going toe to toe with them in violence.

This is the same reason that Capitalists guide feminists to engage in rhetorical "support" for women and "non-support" for sexist slurs. Never will they tell a female person, or a homosexual person, or a black person to get a gun and guard their autonomy with their very life. Lol.

Here's a brief etymology of the word insult

I didn't attack, leap upon, nor offer indignity to homosexuals and you very well know it. Save your indignation for your actual oppressors, lest you be thought inauthentic.

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Not all homosexuals are gay. The words previously - for a brief era of time - were used interchangeably, which neglects how many homosexual individuals do not present agendered. Homo-sexual means literally "same sex", and is addressed toward the nature of one's sexual attraction. A male can be attracted to other males, or a female can be attracted to other females, without presenting "gay". "Gay" is a word born of the secrecy which homosexuals felt compelled, by social pressure, to practice. One cannot discern another's sexual orientation off of superficial observation alone. "Gay" is a throwback to when homosexuality was thought to be abnormal, and it was thought that any person of a certain character (vivacious, pert, light-spirited, care-free...) must harbor sexual attraction toward their own sex. The word "gay" is anachronistic, whilst "homosexual" is scientific.

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Avoiding the problem doesn't contend with the problem. For homophobia to be eradicated, homosexuals and company will need to lay homophobes out. Imagine if the U.S.S.R. had just "ignored" and "stopped spending time with" Nazis instead of slaughtering them lmao.

Fascism would have overtaken the whole world.

Your style is not my style. You're already "surrounded by" people who hate you - THEY are surrounding you; you are not "surrounding yourself". No matter where you go, YOU'RE SURROUNDED. And that'll continue to be the case so long as you engage strictly in verbal sparring. Did you not hear about Indonesia? How about the mass shooting in Colorado Springs 2 weeks ago? But okay you're against weilding violence on your own behalf, and are more worried about the matter of mere words....

...that makes a fuckton of sense. /s

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I'm not denying an issue exists I'm denying there have been any effectual or significant efforts by men to address the issue. Bitching and moaning on Reddit isn't going to get you anywhere. Is that how women & black people got suffrage, education, medical care..?

It's so fucking dweeby that you'd say I'm denying the existence of an issue. You know that's dishonest. You know exactly what I'm denying because my words are very clear. I'm denying the prospect the majority of men truly give a fuck about this shit. If the majority of men cared about contraceptive for themselves, they would be kicking up a gigantic fussy fucking shitstorm for it.

We all know men in the majority would rather attempt limiting female agency than to use their own fucking agency. Get a gun. Make signs. Go to your government buildings. Make demands. Organize. If you want your public funds to be applied toward research and development of male contraceptive, make that demand fucking known. You will have feminist support. Women hate taking the pill and would rather men do it. If you are the one who wants to be freed from parental obligations, then you should want very badly to have a combination of contraceptives for yourself which you yourself can control instead of leaving it to chance by it being in another person's hands.

Fact of the matter is, the state loves breeding bitches. Every baby born outta wedlock is labor. Human labor. That's the elite's bread n butter bro. If you want men freed from incarceration, to have access to healthcare and reproductive care, shelter and education and more JOIN FEMINISTS IN ORGANIZING AGAINST THE STATE. Ffs

It's like talking to a God damn wall in these "MRA" circles.

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I don't exactly disagree where you're coming from. Sex is around for one reason; to have a kid. If you're having sex, then you need to acknowledge a child can be an outcome no matter how small. But I highly doubt male contraceptive in the version of a pill could've been developed in the 60s. There's a lot more money and research going into right now then you may realize. Even with current technology and innovations, creating a medication that can essentially turn off sperm production seems unlikely anytime soon.

But the point here is what happens when all is said and done. Condoms break all the time. I know multiple people who are the result of said incident lol. If your condom breaks and she gets pregnant then you just instantly lost any control or choice in the matter. Anything you say doesn't matter in the least and the outcome is 100% out of your control. That's the problem

[–]SadSorrySackOShip 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This is exactly why it's even more important for males to practice abstinence than females. The absolute choice which is 100% within the male's grasp is the choice to not fuck. Everyone always saying that the female should suffer for the choice to fuck but the material reality is that she doesn't have to; she's the one that gestates therefore it's totally within her power to stop the gestation if she so desires. Even if it comes down to something extreme like suicide, the power is her's alone. Males really really really want this power they want the power of gestation as well as the power to stop gestation. So they try to use the state as a coercion point to seize this power for themselves. But you see, instead of using the state to seize power of female sexual agency, males should exercise their own sexual agency and only fuck females with whom they share a desire to produce offspring. The risks - like MRAs never want us to forget - are all yours. Since it's your risk - risk of some harlot having a spawn you dont want, or nuking a spawn you do want - the onus is on you to mitigate that risk.

Just like I tell females it's on them to mitigate rape. We can cross our fingers n wish on all the shooting stars that dudes will stop raping, but that wish is in one hand with shit in another. A girl or woman who doesn't own and operate firearms nor have training in close combat is a fucking idiot imo and has no sympathy from me beyond the sympathy that she was raised poorly and ignorantly. Guys who stick their dingers in rando bitches have no sympathy from me beyond the sympathy that he was raised poorly and ignorantly. You don't gestate; FEMALES DO, so once you pass that spermy off to her it's her's bro. Or, rather, it's the state's; since the state has ownership over all the bodies in North America (courtesy of ...WAIT FOR ITTT.. policies supported by dudes..LOL).

I'm just assuming it's mostly North Americans in here, of course I could be wrong. However, men I meet from other countries are not quite so pathological and fucked up about coitus, family, or sexual reproduction. They know males and females are different and that males can't gestate. They know the U.S. government is imperialist and oppressive. The U.S., in contrast, is busying itself with a tranny crisis and on the side begging to get nuked lmao.

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If it’s a woman’s body, woman’s choice, and a woman’s consequences then why would a guy be able to dictate whether she does or doesn’t carry her pregnancy to term?

You were trying to argue that men should control whether a woman carries a pregnancy to term, and instead you’re just showing exactly why men don’t have the final say once a woman has already gotten pregnant.

MRA groups never cease to stun me with how dumb their members are. First, you’re talking about pre-pregnancy and having condoms breaking and accidents happening, so men can’t really rely on them. Then, you’re talking about how actually you want men to have control over the pregnancy process once a woman is already pregnant. Then, you go back to talking about birth control pre-pregnancy and talking about condoms as highly effective at preventing pregnancy. You don’t even know what you’re trying to argue for. Just admit you’re dumb and angry that you can’t control women’s pregnancies.

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Raped women have morning after pills, abortion pills, surgical abortions within their state timelines, out of state surgical abortions, (usually anonymous) safe haven dropoffs in the first few months/weeks in all of the US and many foreign countries, and putting the child up for adoption without disclosing the child's father. Males get no outs for parental responsibilities no matter how the child was conceived.

After Hermesmann v Seyer set the precedent, courts around the country have decided that male victims of women owe the perpetrators child support for decades, while other precedents (Roe v Wade) and laws (safe haven laws) generally allow female victims many options to get rid of the product of their rapes.

Hermesmann successfully argued that a woman is entitled to sue the father of her child for child support even if conception occurred as a result of a criminal act committed by the woman.

E.g.

Alabama man - https://law.justia.com/cases/alabama/court-of-appeals-civil/1996/2950025-0.html

Arizona boy - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

California boy - https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-12-22-9612220045-story.html

Others in this paper "Victims with responsibilities" -https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj

There are many others out there. I do not believe there has yet been a single case where a boy or man has gotten out of paying child support to an adult woman that statutory raped, raped, sperm jacked, etc.

The good news is that in recent years feminist lobbiests have pushed for laws to prevent rapists from getting child custody. Without custody the child wouldn't be raised by a rapist and the victim wouldn't owe child support. So the day that a male doesn't owe his perpetrator may be coming soon. The less good news is that just over half the states that passed these laws passed them as the feminist lobbiests proposed them - only preventing rapist fathers from getting custody. (https://www.ncsl.org/research/human-services/parental-rights-and-sexual-assault.aspx)

Terrell v Torres recently set a precedent and invalidated a signed contract to let a woman use embryos created with her ex and have him owe child support.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2019/03/18/arizona-court-ruling-use-preserved-embryos-without-ex-husbands-consent-ruby-torres/3205867002/

Courts have ruled the same way in Illinois and the US supreme court agreed.

http://www.fathers4equality-australia.org/fathers-rights/woman-wins-custody-of-embryos-after-separation/

Courts have ruled the same way in a very similar situation in Italy.

https://www.ansa.it/canale_saluteebenessere/notizie/lei_lui/vita_di_coppia/2021/02/25/si-allimpianto-dellembrione-dellex-marito-anche-se-lui-dice-no_05230156-95ea-406a-aa7e-4e90cf2d7c93.html

Courts ruled the same way in yet another similar case in Israel.

https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%AA_%D7%A0%D7%97%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%99

In several other cases women who forged her ex's signature to implant have been awarded child support from the unwilling father. E.G. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5687477/Ex-husband-ordered-pay-child-support-former-wife-forged-signature-undergo-IVF.html

Reproductive coersion of men is also an issue that would be drastically reduced with financial abortion.

approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

American talk shows for women encourage women to stop birth control without telling their partner with the applause of their audiences.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=5CNHwhHWPoQ

What about IVF with sperm taken from a condom without the man's consent?

https://www.mommyish.com/woman-steals-ex-boyfriends-sperm-has-twins-sues-for-child-support-836/

How about when they only engage in oral sex which should have no pregnancy risk?

https://rollingout.com/2014/02/04/woman-uses-sperm-oral-sex-get-pregnant-force-man-pay-child-support/

How about court orders mandating men give their wife sperm so they can impregnate themselves during divorce proceedings?

https://theprint.in/judiciary/court-orders-man-to-donate-sperm-to-estranged-wife-who-says-no-time-for-2nd-marriage/255215/

Financial abortion would solve all the financial issues for victimized males and remove financial incentives for women to do these things, but many pro-choice folks immediately start making pro-life talking points that if he didn't want a kid he should have used a condom or kept it in his pants.

Financial abortion is about bodily autonomy. No out for child support forces a man to spend years of his life working to pay for a child he does not want. If he loses his job and is unable to pay, he will lose his travel documents (drivers license/passport) and be locked in a cage.

1 in 8 men in South Carolina jails are there for failure to pay child support. They are not given court appointed lawyers until they are $10k behind and most are arrested and lose their job way before that limit making it extremely difficult to pay.

Src: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/20/us/skip-child-support-go-to-jail-lose-job-repeat.html

In the US,

66 percent of all child support not paid by fathers is due to an inability to come up with the money

Src: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-myth-of-the-deadbeat-_b_4745118

Mothers owing child support are more likely to not pay fathers than visa versa, but women are rarely jailed for it.

we found that 32 percent of custodial fathers didn't receive any of the child support that had been awarded to them compared to 25 percent of custodial moms

Src: https://www.npr.org/2015/03/01/389945311/who-fails-to-pay-child-support-moms-at-a-higher-rate-than-dads

But women aren't sent to jail at nearly the same rates for failure to live up to their obligations.

Based on national data, if incarceration for non-payment of child support occurred at equal rates for men and women who are in arrears, 88% of those incarcerated would be men, not 95% to 98.5%, and 12% would be women (since 12% of those in arrears are women). If, as Brennan’s report shows, as few as 1.5% of those incarcerated for non-payment of child support in Massachusetts are women, instead of the expected 12%, then women in arrears are incarcerated at a rate eight times less than their numbers warrant.

Src: https://pjmedia.com/drhelen/2013/03/15/women-who-fail-to-pay-all-of-their-child-support-are-incarcerated-only-one-eighth-as-often-as-men-with-similar-violations-n130850

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[–]PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I appreciate you being willing to discuss this with me, truly.

I'm starting with some assumptions. I don't think these are complicated, but if you disagree that any of these should be the case, let me know (I know in practice these aren't all true, but I think it's fair to say that this is the ideal that we want to build laws around):

1) that we're in the US, and in the US legal system specifically. 2) that the US is a nation of laws, and to the extent that it is possible, laws should apply to everyone equally; Same punishments for the same offenses, same leniencies in the same situations, no discriminating against specific demographics, etc. 3) As is laid out in the US constitution, nobody gets deprived of their rights without due process of the law.

Except it's not just "her body" anymore.

Okay, I disagree, but let's say that's the case: it's not entirely her body anymore, the fetus is considered jointly yours and hers.

If that's the case, no one can make a decision without the consent of both people: you need to both agree to terminate, or both agree to keep.

Except that's not possible, because no decision is a decision: if you say keep and she says terminate, then you disagree. And since the fetus can't be separated from her body without putting her body in danger or destroying the fetus, it has to stay: you get your way while she gets a bodily choice overridden by default.

If the choices are reversed, then the actual solution is a financial abortion for the man, which doesn't exist but absolutely could. No issue.

But that first situation is the issue. Where does that go, legally? Which entity takes away the woman's right to things inseparable from her own body, and to what extent (what choices are taken away?), and who (who gets input on the choice?), and for how long (when does she get that control back?)

I implore you, really ask these questions, because if the answer is "I don't know, but this policy should still be implemented", then we are asking to abandon or bypass democratic ideals to enshrine a view into law.

When I ask myself those questions, I get the answer that I cannot find a way to remove bodily autonomy that does less harm than good.

It all, again, comes down to the fact that men have 0 reproductive rights to speak of

Again, I hear you, and while I think socially men should have much more of a say, and financially men should be able to abort and choose not to become a father the same way a woman can, but fundamentally saying "I have a right to the fetus inside a woman's body's" necessarily entails that you have a right to that woman's body, and that does not fly.

[–]Antanarau1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And since the fetus can't be separated from her body without putting her body in danger or destroying the fetus, it has to stay: you get your way while she gets a bodily choice overridden by default.

Why not discuss , in courts or whatnot, like we do with , say, divorce? By ruling of a court then the woman or the man get their way, . its nothing new really

"I have a right to the fetus inside a woman's body's"

Well, that is what reprductive right are abut really. Yes, the amount of control may be concerning, but we can, again, just use pre-exiting legal systems for all kinds of dicscource. Just because I want to have a say in the matter doesnt mean it has to be final

In other words , make abortion more ,hmmm, legal action requiring. Documented how the child will go, what support it will recieve , if any, and etc

[–]PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Look, fundamentally, my view is "this sucks when the situation comes up, but the other options do more harm than this one." This went on for a bit, but TLDR: forcing someone to have a child they don't want is draconian, a gross violation of human rights, and doesn't lead to anything remotely like a good family outcome: the child is immediately coming into a broken family, since the mother was court ordered to give birth against her will.

No. That's batshit crazy.

Why not discuss , in courts or whatnot

Saying that we should "discuss it in court" isn't a panacea. The times when someone has medical decisions removed from them by the state are very, very specific, and they involve 1) communicable diseases and a compelling public interest 2) a lack of capacity to make the decision for themselves

The state can't even intervene to save someone's life. That's how important this right is. And even in the pandemic, people weren't compelled by the US government to get their vaccine, to get an idea of when the communicable disease part comes into play.

Never in the US has a court legally compelled someone to make a medical against their will, purely on behalf of another specific person. This would absolutely be "something new", and it would have horrifying implications.

Just use pre-exiting legal systems for all kinds of dicscource... Just because I want to have a say in the matter doesn't mean it has to be final.

Okay, I want to look at that second part. "It doesn't have to be final". Let's put you in this person's shoes. What impact should your decision have? No, really.

Because if it goes into court, either she gets her way (in which case, all that this accomplishes is time and a chance to say how you feel to a judge) or you get your way (in which case she has a medical decision removed from her, which is never, ever done).

I'm sorry, but you can't say "but I shouldn't have final say" as a cop out... You want to convince them to see your point of view, right? That's not what the courts are for. The courts are for forcing someone to do something when they CAN'T agree. You had the discussion, and it didn't work out, so one of you is getting steamrolled.

Let's take it a step further, say that it goes to court and you force her to keep a pregnancy that she doesn't want: Their body will now be taxed and damaged for something they didn't choose. They are going to undergo the expensive and painful and potentially life threatening procedure of childbirth, against their will. If the child is born and both parties are healthy, congratulations, your child now has a mother that resents their father, if not themself too.

[–]Antanarau1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What I mean more is, the courts would take on the role of a mediator. Again, the issue on abortion is probably the most weird one, due to multiple reasons (some believe it to be murder, some believe it to be only-female right, some believe other).

Which is why,

Never in the US has a court legally compelled someone to make a medical against their will, purely on behalf of another specific person.

This is not exactly it. You see , there's a baby in there . So it involves another being in the equation. However, situation would still suck. Either one forced to birth, or other forced to have his unborn child killed. I cannot honestly say which i worse of the two

You had the discussion, and it didn't work out, so one of you is getting steamrolled.

Should have worded it differently. I meant "not prioritized" by "not final" , so if I said "yes baby" it wouldn't immediately (without court's approval or whatever ) mean she had to birth it.
And yes, it would suck for one side - thats family courts for you. Never saw someone walk out happy from those .

Their body will now be taxed and damaged for something they didn't choose.
Modern medicine makes that almost negligable unless you birth like every year ,which would be weird
potentially life threatening

Again, negligable. 0.2% chance or something. In 2015, so even lower now. You are as likely to get a permanent injury from an abortion, so can't see it being extremely relevant in this case

Also, the alternative side sucks too. Imagine your child just taken from you, for no real reason nor viable prevention. Or paying 18 years of child money for a child that isnt always yours.

Abortion has no easy solution, sadly.

[–]PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm passionate about this, so I want to keep pursuing the discussion, but after writing a wall for text, I feel like I distilled it down pretty well.

To sum up, the current setup of interpersonal mediation and communication (decides as a couple, or as adults, on what to do) solves every scenario except for when a man wants the pregnancy to continue and the woman does not, and even then, if the woman gets her way nothing has changed, with only time and money was wasted.

You dance around the point in your response, but fundamentally, any right you legislate into existence here serves only to compel a woman to continue a pregnancy that she does not want to continue, or doesn't feel she should continue. That is the only thing it would do that isn't already done without courts, or with a financial abortion, which I agree with.

Is that what you want to do?

[–]Antanarau1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Snivelingincel 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Antanarau 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

> impregnating women against their wishes

I honestly wonder how that could happen. I mean, if you see a man just going raw and you don't want it, just say so? (or vice versa). Countinuing to have sex depsite your protests would then be , well, kinda rape.

>and then denying an abortion.

And since its, well, rape (you did get fucked against your consent, that is true), you can then have a special case for those type of abortions (financial or not)

Not to mention, right now its literally this, except only for women. They can get pregnant with your semen (can someone link that article where a woman collected sperm from a used condom, impregnated herself with it and forced the man into parenthood? Assuming its true, of course. Even without it "poked condoms" are a thing) and you can do nothing against it.

[–]Snivelingincel 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

If a man wants to poke holes in all his condoms under the guise of having safe sex he absolutely can get a woman pregnant against her will. He can also engage in rape and then deny an abortion afterwards. Regular slip ups also happen in relationships and giving the power to the man to decide if the abortion should go through even if the woman doesn’t want a child is putting women in the same situation men are in currently, it’s moving backwards. Men shouldn’t have the right to force a woman to have a child, especially not since pregnancy requires special care and treatment. In that scenario you would also have to hold the man accountable for the care of the woman and all her pregnancy needs up until birth since he is forcing that decision. Put yourself in the shoes of a woman, I know for sure if I was a woman I wouldn’t want to be forced to have a child.

Positions like this can only be justified in states where abortion is illegal and even then I see that as a huge step backward even if it is technically “more fair” for all parties involved. It’s like we can both have one loaf of bread or both have none, each option is fair but which is better?

The solution is not to remove that choice from her. The solution is to give men more legal rights to parenthood by allowing to opt out of having children they didn’t consent to. This creates more pressure for women to make the right decision when it comes to whether or not abort a child, knowing she can’t force the father to contribute.

[–]Antanarau1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If a man wants to poke holes in all his condoms under the guise of having safe sex he absolutely can get a woman pregnant against her will.

Again, this should be considered rape (In fact, wasn't there "rape by deception" or something already?)

He can also engage in rape and then deny an abortion afterwards.

How would that happen? Unless of course you would want to give that power to the criminals, but , why?

man to decide if the abortion should go through even if the woman doesn’t want a child is putting women in the same situation men are in currently, it’s moving backwards.

. Men shouldn’t have the right to force a woman to have a child, especially not since pregnancy requires special care and treatment. In that scenario you would also have to hold the man accountable for the care of the woman and all her pregnancy needs up until birth since he is forcing that decision. Put yourself in the shoes of a woman, I know for sure if I was a woman I wouldn’t want to be forced to have a child.

You see, big point you miss is I don't force her to take care of the child - just to birth it. This is no crime, especially when right now men can just have their unborn children taken from them on what is a whim ,basically

Then, again, you try to tell that men taking care of women is something new - but in vast majority its men's money that goes to fund the pregnancy (no wonder, can't work when pregnant). That is one.
Two , even if somehow you got actually forced to have a child, and then take care of it... well, that's the bad side of equality.

It’s like we can both have one loaf of bread or both have none, each option is fair but which is better?

Right now what we have is a cake situation. Both parties are interested in having a cake. You can also throw the cake away. As of right now, women have the power to throw the cake away with 0 repercussions (the most they would face is illegal abortion, but then again its avoided as easily as moving to a state with a legal abortion). If men wanted to eat that cake - "sucks to be you, her oven her choice". If men wanted to throw away the cake, woman would then force them to pay "cake ingredient" money for 18 years , money which would not necessarily go to making new cakes.

What I propose is when either wants to throw the cake, there would actually be a need to discuss it , using legal obligations or whatnot (excluding states of emergencies 0 but they are that , emergencies). This way, you could even include some ways to sophistically throw the cake away from one party while other keeps it, and whatnot.

Complicated? Sure is, you are, after all, depending on your views on abortions, killing or preventing a new life from appearing, so its no decision to be taken "on the spot" , especially when there's a conflict of interests

The solution is not to remove that choice from her. The solution is to give men more legal rights to parenthood by allowing to opt out of having children they didn’t consent to. This creates more pressure for women to make the right decision when it comes to whether or not abort a child, knowing she can’t force the father to contribute.

This is good in situation A, where man doesn't want a child but a woman does.

However, there is situation B - where its all reversed. What would necessarily stop a woman from aborting the child she doesn't want then? You could say "birth it and give it to him if he so wants it", but that's "forcing birth" and you don't seem to like this solution. So, thoughts?

[–]Snivelingincel1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Thick_Experience_203 -5 points-4 points-3 points 3 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]PM_SHORT_STORY_IDEAS 3 points4 points5 points 3 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

I appreciate that I have a fan!

The show's got some good moments. It strawmans the incel movement, which is a little cringe in implementation, but it strawmans it so hard that it misses harming any actual men's issues by a country mile, lol. Fun and quick.

Regarding a man's right to the future of the fetus he helped made, I honestly hear you. Ordinarily I'd like to have a longer debate on the subject, but I think I can distill it down to the key points that would have to be answered, if the scenario you want comes to pass. And I'm actually curious if you have a good answer for this, because a lot of my perspective stems from asking myself these questions.

Heck, if you faithfully and completely answer both questions without getting mad at/insulting me (even if I'm not happy with the answer), I'll venmo you 10 bucks.

~~

Alright, say what you propose comes to pass. You have the votes, the lobbying worked, Mark Zuckerberg lost big to you on poker night, whatever: The dog has caught the car. All you have to do is outline the generalities of this law and it will be composed into a robust bill by legislative aides, allocated sufficient funding, passed through both houses of Congress, signed by the president, and faithfully implemented as the law of the land.

It's a blank check.

All you have to do is answer the questions regarding how the law is to be implemented:

1) Under which circumstances, when the woman carrying a fetus we made together wants to keep it and I want her to abort, can the state compel her to terminate the pregnancy on my behalf?

2) Under which circumstances, when the woman carrying a fetus we made together wants to terminate the pregnancy and I want her to continue it, can the state forbid her from terminating it and punish her if she does?

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When you have consensual sex you both agree to the risk of pregnancy. Really don't want a baby? Don't have (penis-in-vagina) sex or get snipped. (I also would like there to be a better choice, it would be so nice if men had 99,9999% effective contraceptives..)

Either way, if the woman gets pregnant the consequences for her are: a) go through pregnancy or b) go through an abortion (which also is no fun).

As a man, you unfortunately don't have the option for abortion. But why you can't force a woman to have or not have abortion has to do with bodily autonomy.

Why can't you force a woman to have a child? The woman has to go through pregnancy, during which she has to give up things like alcohol and types of food, and her body undergoes dramatic, often permanent changes. And pregnancy always comes with health risks.

Why can't you force a woman to get rid of a fetus? The woman has to undergo a medical procedure that also impacts her body and comes with risks.

You see, the woman already has the short end of the stick. She has to go through an impactful experience either way. She gets to decide which one she puts her body through.

It's not a perfect system by any means, but I think it's the most ethical system under the current possibilities.

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it’s incredibly rare

By the lay person's definition of rape (nonconsensual sex) it is over 40% of rapes in a typical year.

If you don't like the data of CDC surveying victims...

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known cites among other things an academic study of perpetrators.

A recent study of youth found, strikingly, that females comprise 48 percent of those who self-reported committing rape or attempted rape at age 18-19.

or

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/11/the-understudied-female-sexual-predator/503492/ cites a NIH study that includes self reported perpetrators.

National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found in a sample of 43,000 adults little difference in the sex of self-reported sexual perpetrators. Of those who affirmed that they had ‘ever forced someone to have sex with you against their will,’ 43.6 percent were female and 56.4 percent were male.”

Both those articles are really informative and shocking to people who have just been listening to the narrative.

What I asked for is stats on children conceived through rape which you have not provided

Do you have them?

I provided numbers that showed rape of males by females is almost as common as visa versa. I proved reproductive coercion of men is more common than of women. I proved reproductive coercion of men is socially acceptable. I proved women have many outs and men have none. You seem hell bent on making this ungendered issue ... where women have more options if it happens to them ... out to be one where women have it worse ... in a subreddit with a lot of men that were victims of this stuff.

We don't go into feminist forums and deny women get raped. We get banned for saying we should focus on supporting victims and preventing rape rather than "men" because men get raped as often and government data backs that.

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No one expects a woman to abort because the man doesn't want a child. They just expect men to have the same right to abdicate parental rights and responsibilities as women have. She is free to keep or abort the fetus, or to surrender it after birth.

So either get the snip, pill, condom or keep it on in your pants.

Can you IMAGINE telling this to women? This would not fly. And it shouldn't for men either. No one should be punished for consensual sex.

Abortions aren’t a simple fun process you just do on a weekend because you can.

This shit has a lot of emotional and moral implications for anyone involved in the process. Losing the potential of a child is scarring.

So if a man decides to have sex, the emotional, financial, and physical stress of providing for fatherhood is on him. It's scarring to have your future coopted, but the woman can do it. But...a woman shouldn't have to take into account that, if she doesn't want a child as a result of her actions, then she might have to get an abortion, then that's good.

What you are saying is that: A woman should have to rights to choose the consequences of her actions, whether that be to abort or have a child. And additionally, for the exact same actions, she should have the right to choose the consequences for the man as well. The man, on the other hand, should be forced to be responsible for the woman's emotions and well-being, regardless of his own will.

Her body. Her choice. Her responsibility.

[+]AtlanticMaritimer -7 points-6 points-5 points 3 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes I could imagine saying that to a woman. I’ve had these discussions many times about pregnancy prevention. It’s a two way street one where we both have the responsibility in what we do.

At least in Canada either parent has to pay child support. The father gets custody and the mother doesn’t? She pays child support.

If the mother surrenders the child the father can have custody of them and the mother will need to pay child support.

Source for both these: The Divorce Act (Canada).

So don’t feed me the lie that mothers can just opt out while men can’t. If it’s not that way in your country then I suggest you look to our law as a good example.

In terms of the kid being born - once the woman is pregnant unless she wants to abort or the pregnancy terminates early - you should have to support the thing you helped bring into the world.

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The biggest failure in logic surrounding abortion as a right is two-part: "my body, my choice" coupled with the denial of responsibility. This equates to women's unilateral decision-making in whether a life can continue through gestation. If a woman decides she is not ready for the responsibility, a right to abortion says she can end her pregnancy. If the man decides he is not ready for the responsibility, there is no recourse. Instead, the rhetoric says, "if a man is not ready to be a father he needs to keep [his penis] in his pants," to be responsible.

However, telling a woman to do the same is typically met with language to shut down any conversation a la "misogyny." The majority of people understand that sex is how people reproduce. Somehow holding women to the same standard they hold men to is wrong when the actual standard is implying, "be responsible with sex." The actual implication for the majority identifying with "my body, my choice" is recognizing personal irresponsibility and ending the responsibility IS responsibility. In other terms, responsible enough for sex, but not responsible enough to reproduce despite the only difference being personal understanding of the terms.

Abortion in the scope of rape and risk of life to the mother seems reasonable. However, in cases of women acquiring sperm through subterfuge, is it any less reasonable to force her to undergo an abortion? Typically when thieves are caught stealing they do not get to keep what they have stolen. Forced abortion and jail time seems reasonable as punishment for someone that would treat other people in such a way. That was her choice after all.

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As I said before, if you come up with a way to transfer a fetus into a man’s body then you will see that change. You can herp derp all you want buddy, yes, some people are fuckin’ evil little shits. Some women poke holes in condoms.

Don’t sleep with those women.

You want some kind of legal repercussions for something that is impossible to prove without admission of guilt and to say otherwise is living in a fucking fantasy world.

The reason insurance fraud is illegal is because it can be proven. Bring me the ability to prove without reasonable doubt that a broken condom was used -internationally to impregnate themselves- otherwise this conversation is not only stupid, it’s just meaningless.

Edit; you also could /easily/ say men get options

Don’t fuck that person. Better yet get to know that person before you fuck them.

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[–]Foxsayy1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Reproductive coercion is a problem with society, it’s not just women poking holes in fucking condoms.

That's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?

I falsely assumed you were using the holes in condoms thing to facetiously refer to RC, like lying about birth control and such. Even so, with 9.7% of US men, just the ones of reproductive age currently, that's over 18 million. and you think it's reasonable to think only 500, or only 0.002768679%, have sabotaged a condom? Where'd you even get that "estimate?"

If tomorrow you made it illegal to poke holes in condoms Reproductive Coercion does not stop, or even go down Lmfao

Again... You see how that's worse right? The subject was also unequal reproductive rights, and the conversation also touched on men being coerced or deceived into being a parent. We weren't specifically discussing the style case of looking holes in condoms, and I don't know how you thought we were.

[–]SadGruffman1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Foxsayy1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Listen bud, I didn’t even bring up the condom thing

But you did bring it up. Is that some other u/SadGruffman?

I don’t understand true focus on it.

That's so weird, because I ignored it and then you brought it up again.

I don’t see how it’s just the woman’s problem, that solves nothing.

Please point to wherever this was said. In other comment threads I've even said that women shouldn't be obligated to involve a man in raising a kid because she used his sperm. Reproductive rights should go both ways.

Please use smaller words maybe because right now you just sound like a tit

Ah, the old Ad Hominem. Sorry, was that term too big for you? Perhaps you'd like to misrepresent my argument again, or insist you never said the exact thing there's a text record of a whole 4 comments earlier? If that doesn't work, you could try vapid insults again. Those always mean you're right.

[–]SadGruffman1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That was in response to r/Grizzleswitch who said:

“First, you cant confirm shit. She could say she is on the pill or patch when she isnt. Or she forgot that day. Or she poked a hole in the condom (and yes, I have seen that happen a lot to guys) or she can lie about having an iud. I get that you have a limited grasp of what we are daying, but it is quite easy: women get options and menonly face consequences. There is absolutely zero ways you can run that equation where men are not completely screwed. Now, maybe you can pull your head out of your ass and be less of a fucking moron.”

I can’t keep up with all the uninformed misinformation farting around in this sub. Yeah I said it again because it’s fucking stupid to make a statement like that and not follow it up with facts.

The reason behind men being held accountable is their ability to vacate even before birth. Which takes us back to a lack of choice. If a woman runs off and neglects her child rearing duties a man can go after child support. This is less common but still possible.

Reproductive rights do go both ways, there are stigmas around them still, and ofc rolling back of various rights women took for granted. I don’t see anywhere in your arguments a desire for equal representation, just a desire for men to not be liable if they choose to have unprotected sex.

Which is why a tax payer intervention would literally resolve this. Both parents would have that ability. Ya didn’t seem to go for that though.

[–]Foxsayy1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SadGruffman1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Foxsayy1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That was in response to r/Grizzleswitch who said:

“First, you cant confirm shit. [...]

I just noticed this. You were absolutely not replying to Grizzleswitch when you brought it up, you were replying to my comment, and I don't believe Grizzleswitch participated in the discussion between us at all. Maybe you said something to him previously, but you 100% brought the condom thing up in response to me, and then referenced it again later until I called you out.

Regarding consequences, they are not the same, given one involves giving birth, the other involves monetary support.

Whoever chose to give birth should be responsible for their own choice.

If the man forced her, he should be on the hook (and tried criminally). If he did not and doesn't want it, that's on her.

If only one parent does, the other is forced to comply as in our society it takes two incomes (typically) to support a child.

Yes...that's the issue.

If only one parent does, the other is forced to comply

So one parent makes the choice. The other is forced to support her choice. That is not equality. There's no good reason one person should be forced to be liable for another person's choices when both have previously engaged in the same actions.

Social programs would be ideal, but until then, stop letting women force men to be a wallet that finances her sole decision.

Take responsibility, women. It's their body, and their choice, so they need to responsibility for their outcomes. Men can't accept the risk that she might conceive and have to carry to term or have an abortion for her. She does that all on her own, and the fact that she can force the man into paying factors heavily into what decision many women make.

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Not the same. Vasectomies are reversible. And, the latter is ridiculously rare and not the point of ops post.

My issue with this post is the "consenting to have a child". I'm sorry, but most people are not getting pregnant from sperm theft or rape. If two people choose to have unsafe sex, they are consenting to possibly conceive a child. What they do about that is another discussion.

I say this as some who chose to have unsafe sex with my fiance and got pregnant. We made the conscience decision to not get back on birth control after my IUD had to be removed. We chose without duress to not get another IUD put in. And, we had a surprise pregnancy about a year before we wanted to get pregnant. Nobody forced us to conceive this baby. We consented to it by not wearing a condom, after choosing to have sex knowing full well we both personally wouldn't get an abortion if we got pregnant since we were getting married soon anyway.

[–]Grizzleswitch 12 points13 points14 points 3 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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Vasectomies are reversible.

Reversals are costly and not reliable. Neglecting to mention that is setting up men to be sterile when they want kids later.

And, the latter is ridiculously rare and not the point of ops post.

One of many ways women can force a man to be a parent when he doesn't want to be a parent.

most people are not getting pregnant from sperm theft or rape

Those that are, are being dismissed because of their sex. They are not rare. Even if they were, they matter.

Nobody forced us to conceive this baby.

Good for you. Many people were. Women usually have an out when that happens. A man only has an out if both the father and child live in Nevada and a judge agrees OR a step parent is willing to adopt and take on the parental responsibilities. It doesn't matter if the woman was convicted of a felony for the act of conception. It doesn't matter if he can't afford to pay. He will lose his driver's license and go to jail if he doesn't pay.

[–][deleted] 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocRocksPhDont 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

I'm not a feminist or even saying whether or not people should or shouldn't get abortions. All I'm saying is that most men and women who end up with unwanted children made choices that got them there. It doesn't happen by magic. They each have times when they make decisions about whether to be parents. Excluding the rare cases of rape, coercion, deception.

Men have to make the decision sooner, e.g., don't impregnate a women. Women can also choose to prevent being impregnated and in many places they can choose after impregnating to get rid of it, but both contributed to that choice. I'm sorry but I'm not gonna say that guys have none of the responsibility if the women they chose to impregnate won't listen to their request for an abortion.

"Boo hoo, the woman I was having unprotected sex with who told me she was anti-abortion got pregnant because I wanted to raw dog it and now she won't get an abortion. I have no choice in the matter". Bullshit. Both parties had choices. They made poor ones.

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It's on both people to make responsible decisions. If anyone man or woman doesn't want to be a parent, don't have unprotected sex. And if you're man, make sure before you have sex that you and your partner have reliable birth control and if you choose not to be safe, make sure that you only have sex with people who are on the same page about what you would do in the case of an accidental pregnancy. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. Men and women both consent to conceiving if they have unprotected sex (with exceptions if they are coerced, too young and not educated on sex, or manipulated), . This isn't rocket science. There are several almost foolproof methods for preventing parenthood.

"Oh boo hoo my lady who I was fucking without a condom got pregnant and won't abort and I have no choice in the matter" yes you did. You had many choices. You chose wrong. Just because your decision to become a parent comes before hers doesn't mean you didn't have a choice.

[–]Negative_Thought_911 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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I mentioned things men can do because we are talking about a men's issue. Women have even more options for preventing pregnancy. As a woman, when I did not want a child I took the simple step of getting an IUD. Case closed. Pregnancy avoided.

Everyone has choices. People need to take responsibility for their choices and this is from someone who had a surprise pregnancy. My fiance and I made a choice to not get other forms of birth control after my IUD expired because we were getting married soon anyway. He made the choice to keep having sex knowing I would not want to get an abortion. We made the choice to try to pull out method. And one time he made the choice to not pull out. We made the choice to not get plan B and see what happened. We are about to be parents by both of our choices. We are happy about it because we understood that it was a risk we were taking and that even tho the time wasn't ideal that we wanted a baby. It is equally our responsibility.

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I doubt even most pregnancies are from deceptive women not taking there BC. Gurentee it was equally woman taking birth control improperly on accident and/or guys who begged and pleaded not to use a condom because it "doesn't feel as good". You always have the option to use both.

General rule should be don't raw dog someone unless you could stand having a child with them. Otherwise you have to rely on them not messing up their BC. Besides, if you really don't want kids, why would you not take your own measures? That's personal responsibility for ya. Double the protection with BC and condoms

A handful of my friends in my early twenties had unwanted babies. All of them used the pull out method and knew their ladies weren't on BC. In my personal experience, they didn't like condoms and the pull out method was their idea. Like sorry bro, you made your bed.

[–]DarkShadow4444 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

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Actually, in cases of rape men are not required to be parents. They do have recourse. I remember a girl I knew in highschool for pregnant by a boy who lied about his age. He said he was 17, but after she got pregnant it came out that he was actually 15 and was cutting class in middle school and walking over to the highschool for her to pick him up.

When she got pregnant he declined any parental rights and never had to pay child support because it was stat rape.

Most people are not getting pregnant that way. Most have a choice to not impregnate someone.

I'm a woman. That's bs. Most women do not care at all about the inconvenience of condoms. Especially since it protects form STDs on top of the pill which prevents pregnancy. It doesn't feel that different for us. However, nearly every one of my male sexual partners and several male friends have expressed how much they hate condoms and usually beg to not use them or just take them off mid sex and try to keep going.

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[–]duhhhh 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Vasectomies are reversible

Vasectomies might be reversible. Reversals are not reliable.

except those who experienced rape

NISVS 2010 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.1% of men were made to penetrate and 1.1% of women were raped. Look at Table 2.1 and 2.2 on pages 18 and 19 respectively.

NISVS 2011 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.6% of women were raped. Look at Table 1 on page 5.

NISVS 2012 showed that in the past 12 months, 1.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.0% of women were raped. Look at Table A.1 and A.5 on pages 217 and 222 respectively.

NISVS 2015 showed that in the past 12 months, 0.7% of men were made to penetrate and 1.2% of women were raped. Look at Table 1 and 2 on page 15 and 16 respectively

Varies a bit from year to year, but pretty even overall. In both cases the four year annual percentages add up to five. The numbers for perpetrators vary a little from year to year too. Something like 79-84% of made to penetrate (nonconsensual envelopment) victims are victimized by women. Something like 96-99% of rape (nonconsensual penetration) victims are victimized by men. So in the 2010s, it averages out that a typical year has about 60% men and 40% women as perpetrators of nonconsensual sex outside prisons rather than the 99:1 ratio typically discussed.

Again, in 2010s about equal victims and 60/40 perpetrator split between the sexes when talking about nonconsensual sex rather than narrowly defined rape.

manipulation

approximately 10.4% (or an estimated 11.7 million) of men in the United States reported ever having an intimate partner who tried to get pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproductive_coercion

or lack of education on sex ed/young people

Like middle-school boys that knock up middle-aged women?

"Victims With Responsibilities: Requiring Male Victims Of Statutory Rape To Pay Child Support With No Escape" by Jessica Persaud

https://lawpublications.barry.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1017&context=cflj

By having unsafe sex, both parents are consenting to the possibility of conceiving a child.

You were a good partner that told your SO you removed your IUD. You had no legal or moral obligation to do so. Nothing illegal about stopping the pill or removing an IUD without telling your partner. It's celebrated on women's talk shows with the applause of the audience. https://web.archive.org/web/20211220203706/https://youtube.com/watch?v=5CNHwhHWPoQ

The show was on broadcast TV for another eight years after that aired. How fast would a male talk show host be cancelled for advocating stealthing?

[–]DocRocksPhDont 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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Most people are pretty transparent. I had a friend who continued to date a woman who talked all the time to all his friend about getting pregnant with his baby and she jokingly told his own mother she should poke holes in the condom and he still dated her. If she got pregnant, we would absolutely tell him it's his half fault. I would tell him to walk away and pay child support, since he made bad choices and is still responsible, as is she.

What you are describing is probably very rare. If you really think that is a risk, abstain or buy your own condoms and only use your stash of condoms. If your girl says she is on BC, use a condom anyway unless you intend to be a parent or only fuck people who would abort, because one fuck up by her and you are a dad.

Men have the choice to use condoms correctly everytime and most unplanned pregnancies are because they just don't want to.

[–]duhhhh 1 point2 points3 points 3 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]DocRocksPhDont1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]duhhhh1 point 3 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

1) The law depends on the state. Some are gender neutral, some are not.

2) When does a father have possession of an infant the mother wants? Compare that to the woman's ability to hide the baby from the father if not the whole pregnancy. A father must know the woman is pregnant, know the state she is going to abandon it in, and register with the states putative father registry (if the state has one at all) to prevent her from adopting the kid away without his consent. There have been a bunch of cases where he did all that and still didn't get custody of the kid because the state screwed up and didn't check the registry, refused to back out of the adoption quickly, and by the time the courts hear the case 2+ years later they decide it is in the best interest of the child not to take them away from the only family they have ever known.

So in practice men do not get to use safe havens and adoptions without the mothers permission and has to take go to great lengths to prevent her from using them if he does want the child.

All we are asking for is a little equal opportunity not to have financial responsibility for an unwanted child and the ability to be a parent without the mother having financial responsibilities if she doesn't want the child.

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[–]Foxsayy 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Foxsayy 2 points3 points4 points 3 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Look, the point is she gets the choice and he doesn't. And that's inequality. But...

Or make sure your partner shares your views on abortion in the case of accidental pregnancy. Or don't fuck a girl without birth control.

People lie. People change their minds. Birth control fails.

Most people aren't ending up fathers because they were the unlucky 1% that used a condom correctly and failed or were forced or manipulated.

It's waaaaaaay more than 1%.

"In the United States, 9.7% of men and 8.4% of women experienced any RC by an intimate partner during their lifetime. Men reported more commonly than women that a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to"

You've demonstrated that you don't know what you're talking about, and have thereby disbarred your opinion of any merit. This is plenty already; I'm not even going to address the rest.

Stfu and take personal responsibility for your actions.

Even if it was only 1%, that's something like 2 million men in America, on the low end of estimates. That's a significant number.

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I'm saying that when we are speaking generally about a topic we should make our opinions based on reality -not rare circumstances. Different moral rules can exist for extreme outlier cases. It's a shitty argument style to equate those things. This post is about the idea that men in general shouldn't be responsible for unwanted children. I would argue that most are responsible except in the outlier uncommon circumstances mentioned. In those cases they would be held to a different standard.

That is already how it works. I knew a girl in my highschool that got pregnant by a boy that lied about his age and he was 15. Not 17 as he told her. Because of that, he was held to a different set of rules than the majority. Someone over the age of consent would have to pay child support. He did not have to ever pay child support because he was statutory raped. This is why exceptions to rules exist and why we do not make rules for the many based on rare cases. We adjust rules to accommodate rare cases.

That is also why many are against abortion except in cases of rape or incest. Those are extreme cases that warrant a different set of rules.

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If you’re too dumb to keep up then don’t bother me. You are saying the woman can decide not only to keep the baby, but she also gets to decide to kill it, both even against the wish of the father. If she decides to keep the child the father is forced to financially support the child for 18 years. If she decides to abort the baby the father must just accept it that his child was just taken from him. What is wrong with your brain that you think this is okay? You are saying men shouldn’t enjoy equal rights and that we must be the pawn of women. The laws must change to make this EQUAL. Men are indentured servants when it comes to this issue and ignorant people like you actually support it. Disgusting. You are clearly a very passive male who is subservient to women. You don’t belong here because you are fighting against the rights of men.

[–][deleted] 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Illadrex2 0 points1 point2 points 3 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There are too many men who think in the old traditional mindset, and will scoff at the idea of not being there for a child. Until very recently, and honestly in most blue states is still the case, women aren't forced to be mothers if they don't want to be, men shouldn't be forced to be Fathers....but there are too many fp anything to make women like me dudes who disagree for it to ever gain traction....plus the state profits from putting men through family court in this instance. Judges are evaluated on how mu h support they are able to produce, lawyers benefit for fees and hours, to jails profiting from the labor. It's all a horrible scam really. Men should have the right to choose whether they want to be a father morally and legally, just as women do. This is especially true now that women are formidable in the workforce, in the past when women had to rely on men for everything it made sense, but I make hood money now but, I can't tell you how many times I've dated a woman omwho 1.5x or 2.5x my salary in dating. And for those women who haven't made themselves formidable, the prospect of not having the state to back their foolish decision to keep a child when not financially ready, would curb the number of single parent households dramatically.

Title	When talking about consent— Why doesn’t the discussion extend to consent to have my child.
Author	NeoNotNeo
Upvotes	743
Comments	658
Date	October 26, 2022 5:17 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ye3hyg/when_talking_about_consent_why_doesnt_the/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/when-talking-about-consent-why-doesnt-the.1137232 https://theredarchive.com/post/1137232

Comments

"In the United States, 9.7% of men and 8.4% of women experienced any RC by an intimate partner during their lifetime. Men reported more commonly than women that a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to"

That's worse. You do get how that's worse, right?

"In the United States, 9.7% of men and 8.4% of women experienced any RC by an intimate partner during their lifetime. Men reported more commonly than women that a partner tried to get pregnant when the man did not want her to"