How can dating work efficiently in a world without gender norms?

Lift_and_Lurk · 2026-01-20T15:18:31+00:00

Dating isn’t an “efficiency experience”.
It’s always boiled down to 2 very individual people who decide that they want to be exclusive (most the time).

The fact that now people don’t have to be anything than who they are just means people don’t have to pretend to be what they aren’t in the beginning.

But it’s not supposed to be “smooth” it’s never been “easy” The whole thing has always been a mess, just look at Shakespeare. 457 years ago dude wrote Romeo and Juliet about the overly emotional and confusing lives of young people in love. And four and a half centuries later, it’s still relatable.

ThatBitchA · 2026-01-20T16:17:00+00:00

Trial and error is the whole point. People should try out and explore different things.
Yes, it takes time. Which is good. Because people can focus on other areas of their life, ie career, friends, education, etc.

bloblikeseacreature · 2026-01-20T15:36:32+00:00

dating is not a bottleneck societally, only individually. on the scale of society, inefficient dating market is not a significant cause for low marriage rates. marriage rates are low because given the (mostly employment related/economic) constraints people face, they are on aggregate choosing this marriage rate. if marriage were more attractive, the friction from dating would not matter, people would get married.

individually, many people are stuck dealing with dating seemingly forever, so it gets a lot of attention. but it would be a mistake to then assume fixing dating, rather than empowering people to make better lives for themselves in general, is a good use of effort.

did i miss where you justify the assumption that specifically gender norms would/could be helpful in decreasing friction in the dating market, or for people figuring out what they want and coming up with life plans easier? seems very unintuitive to me. when you add constraints, the old ones don't disappear. having to pass all the same hurdles plus a few more is unlikely to help.

mashedturnip · 2026-01-20T15:55:10+00:00

Uh, since it’s been 50 years, it appears to be working fine

I don’t see how choosing can be optimized, nor why it should be optimized, since everyone is responsible for their own fulfillment in a free society

wtknight · 2026-01-20T16:42:21+00:00

I think that it’s better to just not restrict people to gender norms rather than to just abolish them. If some people want to act like manly men or ultra-feminine women, then let them. But don’t persecute those who don’t want to act this way or make them try to conform either.

I think that people are still going to be attracted to sexual organs even if there are no gender restrictions, many of those organs still the organs of the opposite sex. I don’t think that heterosexual dating is going away anytime soon just because gender norms change.

KayRay1994 · 2026-01-20T17:11:42+00:00

Thing is with established gender norms (and established systems as a whole) is that they are easier on paper, but far more repressive and often only exist because it takes away autonomy from the people participating and makes one side more dependent on the other. It is ‘more efficient’ because it is an established system - and the truth is I feel men refuse to let go of it because they benefit from it more than women (though are still oppressed by it)

I think, flat out, asking ourselves if this really needs to be efficient is important cause… I don’t think something like interpersonal relations need to be done with efficiency in mind, it needs to be done with compatibility in mind - and this applies to all kinds of relationships, not just romantic. The issue is we try to simplify what is a complex set of systems for a complex species, sure, our base desires might be simple but once we pop the hood we get quite complex

Also, and this is very important: most feminists don’t argue to abolish gender norms, we argue to remove the necessary restriction of it - in other words, the choice to follow these norms if you so do please, but also understanding the scope of options you have if you so choose to follow them

Lemon_gecko · 2026-01-20T15:09:12+00:00

I'll tell you when i'll see this world. So far it's incomprehensible.

nadirian · 2026-01-20T15:59:04+00:00

There's a tendency in "manosphere" spaces to generally deride the humanities as a field of study... and then they pose very basic, 101-level humanities discussion questions like it's a brand new idea.

There's a wealth of literature in the domain of human sexuality, specifically the subset of "queer studies", that could help you imagine some of the ways people have been pairing off or hooking up outside of the conventional script, both in the past and today.

EugeneCezanne · 2026-01-20T17:50:06+00:00

Honestly, step into Queer World now and again. For example, a queer-friendly nightlife scene in a major city that doesnt consist only of gay bars, but of ambiguous be-whatever spaces for anyone. What I think you'll find is that lots of people have largely stopped caring about gender roles in the way straight world does, yet still manage to date just fine. It's not that gender roles are abolished—that's kind of a fringe ambition to begin with—just that they are seen as fluid, playful and not restrictive. You'll still see super-femme women dressed for the club, except they're partying alongside people of different styles, various gender identities, and ambiguous sexualities and expressions under the often oft-true assumption that everyone is just doing it because they want to and someone out there will be into it.

In my experience with many cities, these spaces tend to be much healthier dating-wise than their hetero alternatives that even many straight people who find it realize that their normal complaints aren't resonating anymore and are reluctant to leave.

But it also has a draw back. People not having a clear cut life plan anymore led to a situation where people first have to figure out what they actually want, and then find someone who matches those expectations. This is of course much more complicated than a situation where every young person had the same life plan by default

I disagree that complexity is a down side. Dissatisfaction with the uniform life plan is part of what motivated the revolution in the first place.

Fan_Service_3703 · 2026-01-20T15:40:36+00:00

I disagree with your premise. Feminism the ideology has always been conservative-leaning when it comes to the role of men in society.

But in answer to your question, I think if you want to speculate about what a gender role free world, you have to look at people and places where gender roles aren’t normalised, or aren't as normalised.

Giving examples from my own experiences:

Women raised in the poor area I grew up in where promiscuity was the norm (for both women and men) had no qualms about being upfront with their intentions, initiating, being openly sexual etc. I thought this was the norm until I went into the outside world and realised most women expected the man to male all the moves even if they liked them.
Men raised among purity culture had a disgust for promiscuous women or even women who had any kind of sexual history. Men raised without this belief do not seem to have any objection.
Women raised in very homophobic environments - even if they personally are pro-LGBT rights as adults, tend to be the ones who absolutely will not date bisexual men. Women not raised with this belief seem to not have a problem dating bi men.
Most men in the Western World find women with hair on their legs repulsive. I have visited other parts of the world where unshaven female legs are normalised, and the men have absolutely no problem with it.
My girlfriend has earned her own money from a very early age and was never taught to 'find a man who takes care of her'. It's no coincidence then that she has never expected me to provide for her.

I can probably think of more examples, but my point is that most gender-role based turn ons/offs seem to be based on what gender roles the person was/wasn't exposed to in their formative years, and the general society around them. I suspect that the more gender roles are eradicated, the less bearings they will have on relationships.

Disastrous_Agent9307 · 2026-01-20T16:43:11+00:00

I don't think you're going to make an inherently inefficient thing efficient. I don't think you're going to abolish gender either honestly and expectations seems unlikely.

If you were going to succeed with this, you'd first have to make it so anyone could be pregnant and if you could do that, then MAYBE.

that_gworl · 2026-01-20T16:24:59+00:00

I wanna know when feminism called for the abolishment of all gender norms? I fully thought the goal was to end the subjugation of women and give them the same choices men have for a more equitable society.

I’m a woman, a feminist, and personally feel comfortable with traditional gender roles. What annoys me is a man who wants to negotiate what masculine roles he wants to participate in while desiring a traditionally feminine woman. We can thank feminism for giving everyone more choices for how to live. Men benefit from progressiveness more than they like to admit. All these women willing to go 50/50 on bills with yall? Thats feminism at work.

leosandlattes · 2026-01-20T15:08:16+00:00

This question relies on the assumption that dating can even work without gender norms, and I don't think it can. Humans are a dimorphic species, and part of our gender norms are based on these biological differences that influence what we find feminine or masculine.

For better or worse, men tend to be attracted to women who present feminine (to whatever this degree matters to him), and women tend to be attracted to men who present masculine (to whatever degree this matters to her).

What most feminists are asking for is not the abolishment of gender norms into non-existence, but the abolishment of the strict adherence to gender norms relative to one's sex. So that everyone can decide how they want to exist, which gender norms they want to partake in, and which ones to leave behind.

That also means you accept any consequences of adhering to, or rejecting, gender norms. No one is obligated to date women or men who reject their gender norms; the only thing that can be expected is basic politeness and social acceptance.

Jetpine9 · 2026-01-20T16:53:05+00:00

Much of gender is a role play fantasy. It's one that is often programmed into us the way many fetishes are, by early experiences with shame, body awareness, eroticism, cultural ideals, and taboo. Becoming conscious of that to some degree is a good start.

You don't have to think of it as abolishing or restricting traditional gender roles (sometimes it could be that way, but generally speaking), think of it as choosing them voluntarily and having the freedom to expand them, alter them, etc.

Just like there's a place for twinks and a place for bears in this world, there's the same expanded possibilities for whatever the gender role equivalents in het dating would be. You don't have to keep trying to fit that square peg in a round hole.

jorts-enthusiast · 2026-01-20T17:42:19+00:00

Dating isn’t meant to be efficient. It’s supposed to be intentional. Unless you just want to date whoever.

Also- it’s painfully clear that you don’t understand feminism or engage with actual feminists. Feminists do not advocate for the abolition of all gender norms, we just don’t think that they should be enforced.

bondepart · 2026-01-20T15:50:08+00:00

Gender norms are a method of control in society, to make sure people stay in their place. Ultimately this stems from a historical context whereby women and men had vastly different roles in society and were strictly kept denied access to different parts of life not considered appropriate for their gender. This has gradually changed as feminism has given women more rights, but gender roles persist and continue to be harmful to both men and women.

The ideals of we are all supposed to live up to of a “real man” or the ideal woman are designed to be unattainable, to leave us all feeling insecure, worried that the validity of our gender could be questioned or taken away at any moment, something which is considered the ultimate humiliation. You frequently see men express they are seeking out sex or relationships mainly as a form of validation of their masculinity, because they are taught from childhood that being emasculated is the worst thing that can happen.

Ultimately I think society would be a lot safer and happier if we took away all of these gender norms and pressures.

love_in_october · 2026-01-20T17:18:01+00:00

It'd work more efficiently. You have to figure out what you want at some point. Better to go into a relationship with that as a basis and try to find someone compatible at the beginning than try and fail at fulfilling a gender role (nobody does it exactly) and then find out the bits of you that you weren't honest about are incompatible.

Siukslinis_acc · 2026-01-20T18:24:38+00:00

You have to actually figure out what you want. This will take some time and probably trial and error to get there.

Yes. That is why you should go out and do stuff. Gather experiences to figure things out instead of hiding in your home and just thinking about things. Bad relationships can also teach you stuff about yourself.

After you know what you want, you have to find someone who matches this specific expectations.

Yes. And you find out by interacting and socialising with a bunch of people. And through interacting with people you should have figured out that there is no one person who meets all of your expectations. That means that there are expectations that might be needed to be outsourced. Like, you would want to have a partner who goes fishing with you, but maybe you would also be ok with a partner who meets your other needs, but won't go fishing with you, but they won't stop you from going out to fish with a friend.

Dating will be efficient without gender norms if people spend time interacting with each other and learning about them and themselves from those interactions.

NoDanaOnlyZuuI · 2026-01-20T21:54:11+00:00

This kind of feels like when religious people ask atheists where their morals come from. The idea is that if you take away the structure, everything falls apart. But it doesn’t. Atheists still have morals, they just don’t outsource them to religion. Same here, removing gender norms doesn’t remove dating, it just shifts it from scripted outdated roles to conscious choices and communication

sablesalsa · 2026-01-20T18:43:26+00:00

Some gay people (and even straight people) adhere to gender norms, but plenty don't and are making it work just fine. It's surprisingly easy. Someone initiates or maybe you fall together somehow and just both do whatever feels right. Express yourself however you want. Good communication, especially about your expectations for a relationship, is what's going to make it go smoothly.

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xxTx-Toymanxx · 2026-01-20T17:44:58+00:00

Look at any tracked metric. It doesn't and isn't. The dating culture is dying at an exponential rate. While there are other influences, markets centered around dating and marriage are hurting financially. Match making events are being avoided by men specifically. Attendance rates to clubs are down significantly causing clubs to close. Wedding venues have dropped in earnings. Even flower companies have seen a reduction of profits, higher competition, lower sales and it is only getting worse.

If you look at sales for valentines day 2025, there was a visible shift from buying for romantic partners to shifting for friends up to 32% of the sales and 19% which was a record high for coworkers and even pets up to 32%.

It was noted roughly that 40% of the spending were changing focus on personal well being and platonic friendships over any romantic partners. Even jewelry sales were projected to be higher than it actually ended up being. Sales per unit dropped by 7.2% overall while higher priced items did rise but indicated it was due to established committed relationships. and gifts priced lower that traditionally reflected purchases for newer relationships dropped by a noticeable percentage.

DietTyrone · 2026-01-20T18:36:47+00:00

Can it work? Definitely to an extent. Will the majority of people actually work towards a world like that? Probably not.

Why? Because getting rid of gender norms also means eliminating benevolent sexism, mainly aspects of chivalry that women currently enjoy. Like "women and children first," or men being expected to approach first, or men being expected to plan and pay for the first date, or men being expected to check on that noise in the middle of the night and defend their women. Whether women admit it or not, they benefit from these things and the majority of them enjoy these benefits. Good luck getting them to completely abandon this for a gender norm free society.

ImaginaryDimension74 · 2026-01-20T18:56:55+00:00

If gender norms were abolished and women wanted to work as much as men and never be provided for, the gender pay gap would end and society might cease bring hypergamous: women wouldn’t care so much about dating up. The common women’s complaint that men aren’t good enough and men’s complaint that women are too picky would be reduced.

On the negative side, having different roles is one of the things that makes relationships a positive, it allows one partner to shine in areas the other isn’t interested or capable of. Without that difference, people out likely value relationships less.

They-man69 · 2026-01-20T19:00:30+00:00

I like aspects of masculinity and femininity. But femininity in general has a lot of focus in the visual aspect than masculinity.

DenverKim · 2026-01-20T21:13:49+00:00

“Big parts of feminism argue for the abolishment of all gender norms”

This just simply isn’t true. I don’t know where you are getting your information, but I don’t think you even understand what feminism actually means.

Livid-Log7463 · 2026-01-20T21:22:35+00:00

It can’t ever come close enough to labeled as “efficient”, people ultimately are not as individual, ESPECIALLY in regards to romantic preferences, as they would like to believe, So the more individual people act the less efficient dating must become and the worse it will be for the “more individual” people.

aslfingerspell · 2026-01-21T01:07:19+00:00

There would be norms, just along other lines. For example, perhaps there would be public spaces where it was normalized that if you're sitting a certain way, you're open to being approached.

I mean, same-sex dating is a thing that occurs, so even if the roles assumes by an individual couple look pretty traditional (i.e. "masc" lesbian and "femme" lesbian), it wasn't gender that determined that.

AlarmingArm9919 · 2026-01-21T03:47:38+00:00

let it go and see what happens

if it settles into a situation where 80 percent of the population goes with traditional gender norms and 20% has women walking their boyfriends around on a leash then what's the problem

Ok_Bandicoot3050 · 2026-01-20T16:30:47+00:00

It's simple. You keep meeting people until you find people who have chemistry with you.

Someone who is attracted to you doesn't just stop being attracted to you because social norms change.

Title	How can dating work efficiently in a world without gender norms?
Author	PuzzleheadedGrab8375
Upvotes	11
Comments	101
Date	January 20, 2026 2:30 PM UTC (6 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1qi2kmg/how_can_dating_work_efficiently_in_a_world/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/how-can-dating-work-efficiently-in-a-world-without.1571603 https://theredarchive.com/post/1571603

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