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Lower earning partner should propose to higher earning partner

April 28, 2022
7 upvotes

So recently I got asked to propose, which made me seriously think about the pros and cons of the marriage so I started with marriage vows.

"I, _____, take you, _____, to be my wife/husband, and I do promise and covenant, before God and these witnesses, to be your loving and faithful husband/wife in plenty and in want, in joy and in sorrow, in sickness and in health, as long as we both shall live."

Which honestly does sound great, two people vowing to be faithful, in good and bad times, in sickness and health till death splits them apart... except this part is completely non binding. Your partner can brake every single one of these vows and you cannot get any sort of compensation for them braking their vows. Also if your partner does brake these vows you still have to go through a lengthy and costly procedure to divorce them.

I used to believe that marriage exists because of the children, however if I make a kid outside of the marriage, mother can easily make me pay child support. And I can request shared custody.

In divorce I can be forced to pay child support for children of which I am not a biological father.

There is alimony. In divorce higher earning partner can be forced to pay alimony money for years to lower earning partner. Any wealth which was created during the marriage is going to be split equally.

As a higher earner which is equipped with a penis, and thereby I do not have a full control of who the father is there is no PRO's in marriage for me.

I should get proposed to... not ask to propose for a one sided contract which is not in any way in my favors.

Furthermore I can only see a benefit of such an arrangement only if one partner is sacrificing his/her career for the family. Otherwise there is some serious space for abuse here... because one partner can be supported during the marriage, and then on top of that get compensated simply because he/she earned less or nothing at all during the marriage.

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Post Information
Title Lower earning partner should propose to higher earning partner
Author smallstarseeker
Upvotes 7
Comments 113
Date April 28, 2022 10:47 AM UTC (9 months ago)
Subreddit /r/PurplePillDebate
Archive Link https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/lower-earning-partner-should-propose-to-higher.1113072
https://theredarchive.com/post/1113072
Original Link https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/uds5wi/lower_earning_partner_should_propose_to_higher/
Comments

[–]gofigure62No Pill 11 points12 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

Depends on what kind of life people want to live. I don't believe that average people actually know what marriage is legally or conceptually.

Cohabiting isn't a necessity. Having children isn't a necessity. Sharing finances and the cost of living isn't a necessity. Being monogamous isn't a necessity. Sacrificing for the sake of a relationship isn't necessary. None of the standard things that people complain about regarding relationships are necessary. There are a significant amount of things in a relationship that people can eliminate to reduce the amount of harm that they experience.

Marriage typically is for people who essentially want to live as one person. They want to live in the same house, they want to raise children together, they want to financially plan and invest together. They want monogamy with each other. They want to intertwine their lives in all aspects to make and live as one unit. As such contractual marriages are there to protect both parties in a multitude of ways.

Now there is more risk associated with marriage if someone marries someone significantly poorer than themsleves. However most people are equally yolked financially. If someone earns millions and billions of dollars annually and decides to marry someone unemployed, all income and assets aquired during the marriage are equally owned.

Men and women seem to fail to realize that marriage (at least in America) is a consensual choice that no one has to engage in. No one has to share their life with a person. People can date indefinitely while living completely seperate lives where they don't have to deal with any inequalities or risks that are commonly associated with marriage or cohabiting.

Keeping ones own living space is an option. Not having children is an option. Not intermingling finances is an option. Not going on joint asset ventures with other people is an option. Not being monogamous is an option. Not sacrificing time and opertunities is an option.

The reality is that most men and women wouldn't want to date or be romantically involved with a man or woman who seemed so "distant" and "distrusting". Lots of people would consider such a relationship "pointless" since it would essentially mean being "alone" compared to what people usually view relationships as. Most people wouldn't commit to men and women who never trusted them and made it clear that they didn't trust them.

So while it's possible to have "alone together" relationships. The dating pool for finding such men and women who would agree to a relationship like this would be low.

There is always a risk associated with any relationship be it platonic, familial, professional, or romantic. The only difference with romantic relationships (in free societies) is that people don't have to engage in them at all, and if they do, then men and women are able to set their own requirements and boundaries for what their relationship will be and how much risk each person is willing to assume within a relationship.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] -2 points-1 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Marriage typically is for people who essentially want to live as one person. They want to live in the same house, they want to raise children together, they want to financially plan and invest together. They want monogamy with each other. They want to intertwine their lives in all aspects to make and live as one unit. As such contractual marriages are there to protect both parties in a multitude of ways.

Maybe that's the intent but marriage doesn't protect people from infidelity. Also if you are a wealthier partner, you get sick and your husband decides to bail on you... you can end up paying alimony to him.

To top it off if your partner abuses the relationship or you, you can get stuck with a lengthy and costly divorce process.

I would argue that... marriage does a pretty crap job at protecting involved parties.

Now there is more risk associated with marriage if someone marries someone significantly poorer than themsleves. However most people are equally yolked financially. If someone earns millions and billions of dollars annually and decides to marry someone unemployed, all income and assets aquired during the marriage are equally owned.

Which brings us to one interesting situation.

If I, a man want to marry a woman I'm going to make an effort. I'm going to take her out somewhere special, kneel down take out a ring and ask her to be my wife.

And she... just asks me to propose to her.

Since this marriage would go completely into her favor isn't she supposed to propose to me?

[–]mandoa_sky 10 points11 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

don't marry her if you don't want to. tell her so and let her decide if she wants to stay with you or not.

you're both adults here

[–]gofigure62No Pill 6 points7 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

Marriage was never intended for significantly wealtheir people to date outside of their economic class. It was always intended to protect assets of both families marrying their children off to families of equivalent means.

Frankly from what you said regarding your girlfriend idk why you're dating her at all. It sounds like a waste of time to me personally.

If you think she should grovel and ask you to marry her because she's poor and a single mother, you should let that be known.

I'm not an advocate of cross collar dating. I don't think it's a successful relationship union at all because there's too much disparity in all aspects of the relationship.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] -1 points0 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Marriage was never intended for significantly wealtheir people to date outside of their economic class. It was always intended to protect assets of both families marrying their children off to families of equivalent means.

Sounds like marriage as it is, is outdated.

Frankly from what you said regarding your girlfriend idk why you're dating her at all. It sounds like a waste of time to me personally.

I had reached the age at which I am fine with a relationship without kids, and I am fine having relationship with a person that has kids. However I do not want to get married. I had told her so even before our first date and she was fine with it.

If you think she should grovel and ask you to marry her because she's poor and a single mother, you should let that be known.

I think that since she doesn't want to have more children, there is no point in getting married.

And if she does want to get married then she should ask me to marry her.

I can't see why woman asking for marriage is "groveling", men kneel down and propose all the fucking time... sometimes in public.

[–]gofigure62No Pill 5 points6 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Have you told her all of the thoughts that you're venting here?

You should tell her exactly how you feel. If you want her to propose then ask her for a proposal.

Most of your opinions here are irrelevant because these are life decisions that you're CHOOSING to participate in. You chose to date someone significantly poorer. You chose to date a single mother. You chose to date a woman who doesn't want to have children with you. You chose to be in a relationship that would disadvantage you.

Other people aren't responsible for changing culture or their personal behaviors for your own personal life choices. Just because you're unhappy with the relationship dynamics that you personally chose, doesn't mean that society or the institution of marriage has to change for your own life choices.

As I said I don't personally agree with cross-collar marriages. But people are free to do whatever they want. If you don't want to propose, why don't you tell her that a proposal isn't something that she'll be receiving from you?

[–]featheredsnake 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You make a wonderful point. Unfortunately, most of those concepts are not mainstream and thus I don't think are good counterarguments to OP. However, more options, like you mention, should be mainstream.

[–]midwesternMDNo Pill 5 points6 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

You’ve got a couple of different issues here.

1) Who proposes?

Culturally, in the US at least, the man proposes. If marriage is something the woman wants, and the man hasn’t proposed in a timely enough fashion for her, her only recourse is to start a dialogue. Asking you to propose isn’t the must tactful way to do that, but it is broaching the topic.

2) income/assets

The wealthier/higher earner stands to lose more in a divorce. Marriage is not just about the emotional/symbolic components. It is also signifying financial merger. Instead of my money and your money, it’s our money.

If you’re on board with that, cool. If you’re not, cool. She’s also entitled to do what she will in response to your decision.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’ve got a couple of different issues here.

Who proposes?

Culturally, in the US at least, the man proposes. If marriage is something the woman wants, and the man hasn’t proposed in a timely enough fashion for her, her only recourse is to start a dialogue. Asking you to propose isn’t the must tactful way to do that, but it is broaching the topic.

A tradition which in my opinion belongs to a horrible barbaric patriarch past. And as a society which strives to be modern and gay we should strive to be better.

2) income/assets

The wealthier/higher earner stands to lose more in a divorce. Marriage is not just about the emotional/symbolic components. It is also signifying financial merger. Instead of my money and your money, it’s our money.

If you’re on board with that, cool. If you’re not, cool. She’s also entitled to do what she will in response to your decision.

Silent treatment :)

[–]DorianneGrey 9 points10 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

So...based on the OP and comments, it looks like not only do you not intend to get married (which is obviously your choice), but since she does want to, you want her to do an elaborate proposal just so you can turn her down?

Am I understanding this correctly?

If that is not the case, why do you keep saying that she should ask you when you clearly would say no instead of just telling her that you do not want to get married at all when she asked you to propose?

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

But I had simply told her that I do not want to get married. It would be super-asshole of me to tell her she needs to propose to me only to reject her afterward.

My entire point is that if you want something you should ask for it... not ask other person to offer it to you. Like when when I want to date a woman, I ask her out. And if I really want to date her I make an actual effort to improve my chances.

Asking woman to ask me out is, well it's super safe for me because I'm not risking rejection, also if it works huge ego boost for me, but my chances of it to work go down the drain.

Same thing for asking someone to propose to me...

[–]FancyCocktailOlive 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t understand why you’re in this relationship. Just tell her you don’t see a future with her, that you won’t be proposing and end it.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill 21 points22 points  (15 children) | Copy Link

Or, hear me out... Whoever wants to propose should propose.

If you were "asked to propose" and your first thought is "this bitch might make me pay child support for kids that aren't mine", you should probably break up, because either you, your partner, or both of you sound terrible.

[–]RahLyt 8 points9 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Except this is just virtue signalling. Men propose 99.9% of the time.

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill 3 points4 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

What virtue am I signaling? I didn’t say anything about who proposes more.

[–]RahLyt 2 points3 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Or, hear me out... Whoever wants to propose should propose.

Saying this what's add to the conversation? Everyone knows this however is still just one gender proposing what is this of not virtue signalling?

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

That’s not what virtue signaling is. Virtue signaling is when you say or do something to make people think you’re a good person (y’know, to “signal” your “virtue” to others.)

This is a CMV that says “the person with the lower income should propose”. I contended that which ever person wants to propose should propose. This is a neutral opinion. It signals nothing other than that I have a different view from OP.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

The thing is that marriage would entirely benefit her.

So if she wants a marriage she should ask me to marry her, or wait for me to ask her.

Not ask me, to ask her to marry her.

Reverse the situation a bit... man kneels down his GF, puts ring into her arm and tells her "go ahead ask me to marry you".

[–]Gravel_RoadsJust a Pill 8 points9 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It's literally just the tradition, bro. Her telling you to propose is her proposing. This is like saying "If someone wants a cake for their birthday, they should buy it for themselves!" Like, sure... but it's traditional for someone to buy it for you, so it's not weird to ask for it.

That said, there are many modern women who do or will propose.

But none of this is related to money. How much someone earns shouldn't dictate whether or not they ask someone to marry them. Just, y'know... a desire to marry.

[–]bluestjuicePeople are wrong on the internet! 6 points7 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

Asking you to ask her to marry you is, effectively, asking you to marry her. It just means she also wants the romantic proposal moment.

Edit because I’m still half-asleep and can’t write words.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] -1 points0 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

Well I want a nice looking woman to take me out on romantic diner, kneel in front of everybody and ask me to blow my pepe. However that's just a dirty fantasy. if I want my pepe to get sucked I have to create the right atmosphere and explicitly/implicitly ask for my pepe to be sucked.

And if she wants me to marry her, she needs to wait for me to do it on my own OR, create a romantic proposal moment for me. Not ask me to create one for her.

[–]bluestjuicePeople are wrong on the internet! 4 points5 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It just sounds like you don’t want to get married. Which is fine, but if your partner does that might be a dealbreaker.

[–]FancyCocktailOlive 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You’re not likely to get to your fantasy fulfilled. You know that so why even think about it?

You know you’ll never propose so you ought to tell her that.

[–]Mondholm 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Correct. She benefits, she asks.

[–]TheCupGuySparty 11 points12 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you don’t want to get married, don’t get married. Simple as that, no one is forcing you. Personally, I’ve never been more happy than I’ve been since marrying my wife. This past year of being married has been far superior than the almost 10 years we dated.

Find what works for you and your relationship(s), I couldn’t be more proud of my “old man gold band”. I don’t know why all the guys seem to hate the idea of marriage… If you’re worried the women wanting to marry you is a gold digger, cheater, POS who will make you raise/pay for a baby that isn’t yours, it seems to me you shouldn’t be with that person. Maybe you should BREAK up (not brake up).

[–]IndividualYouth93 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

Thank you!!!! I am literally reading all the comments and replies, wondering if I would find someone telling him the right spelling I almost gave up hope...

[–]Swapsta 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t know why all the guys seem to hate the idea of marriage… If you’re worried the women wanting to marry you is a gold digger, cheater, POS who will make you raise/pay for a baby that isn’t yours, it seems to me you shouldn’t be with that person. Maybe you should BREAK up (not brake up).

Because there is little reason to do so as a man except a fringe sense of necessity. Divorce splits(if the man earns more) favours women, divorce is a costly and stressful procedure. The woman can get security in the future but a man doesn't get anything that is really needed. Even if you trust your partner a marriage is usually unnecessary.

This is worse due to the fact of the government being involved. You cannot negotiate alimony or the marriage contracts, so you are left with a shitty contract with no benefits.

[–]Lift_and_LurkNo Pill 6 points7 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, not trying to be a dick: but something tells me you’ve never been in love before.
Marriage and proposals aren’t “logical” things. It’s done out of that emotional part of you that wants to spend your lives together and “make it official” in a somewhat silly ceremonial way. But it’s meaningful to both of you.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Well first of all I'm 37 or 38 years old and I had experienced happy and unhappy love a couple of times.

But it’s meaningful to both of you.

Well it's not meaningful to me.

For me marriage is meaningful when two people decide to have kids together, or have a kid on the way and decide to create a family and raise kids.

If two people love each other... a piece of paper is not going to make you love each other for the rest of your lives.

[–]Lift_and_LurkNo Pill 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you fundamentally don’t understand what love and marriage are.

And that’s cool. Plenty of people are happily single or together and just never get married.

[–]Helioos33 7 points8 points  (6 children) | Copy Link

I would be more impressed if person is willing to stay with me without demanding to be married. If you are really loyal and love another that would be enough.

[–]KirthWGersen 6 points7 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

I couldn't agree more.

A woman who wanted to be married more she than wanted to be with me, is a woman I would prefer not to be with at all.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I can attest, since she asked me...to ask her, it feels like all the "magic" is gone.

[–]liefelijk 5 points6 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

It’s not a bad thing to want marriage. It’s a preference like any other, just like the divide between those who want children and those who are childfree.

If OP doesn’t want marriage and his girlfriend does, it’s not something that can be compromised on and shows basic incompatibility.

[–]Kizka 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Eh, you could say the same about kids or any other preference. "If she truly loved me, I should be enough, she shouldn't need kids". "If she truly loved me, she would give me a kid".

I think it is a sign of maturity to comprehend that only love is never enough for a relationship to be successful. It should be the base and it shouldn't be missing, but there are a lot of other factors that determine if a relationship will hold or not, and compability is one of them. Nobody should be made to endure complete unhappiness in order to stay with someone. If someone can't be happy without a marriage, they shouldn't be forced to forgo it as a sign of their love and devotion. The same with children, relationships to their parents or siblings, or whatever other thing you can think of. We all have pillars in our lives that we need, independent of if we're in a romantic relationship or not and independent of with whom we're in a relationship with.

An alcoholic shouldn't endure daily drinking of a partner, childfree people shouldn't take on parenthood for their partner and marriage oriented people shouldn't need to miss out on marriage for their partner.

[–]Helioos33 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, problem is that woman can say she is bored and whatever and cheat, take away your children, house, money.

[–]liefelijk 5 points6 points  (32 children) | Copy Link

There are many financial incentives for getting married, even if you’re just looking at your individual earning power: you are more likely to get raises and promotions when you “have a family to support” and are treated with more respect.

Does your girlfriend work right now? Do you want to have kids and how do you plan to cover childcare? Decide how care in early childhood will be covered: through daycare or through a short loss in your partner’s income. Talk this though with your partner and decide if you have similar lifestyle goals.

Shared lifestyle goals are the best reason to get married. Having a partner allows you to pool your assets and work together to reach those goals.

[–]OraleEse13 1 point2 points  (14 children) | Copy Link

Trust me, the raises and tax benefits are wiped out in the first 3 months of a contentious divorce. Plus, as stated, you lose half of everything you acquired and earned.

A married man with a SAHM and 2 children might need 80k-150k (depending on where you live) to be comfortable. A single man can be easily comfortable on 50k.

High earning isn't necessary when you are only supporting yourself. And, if you marry the wrong woman she can absolutely drain any extra you made, and then some, in divorce, through child support, alimony, and emotional distress.

[–]liefelijk 1 point2 points  (13 children) | Copy Link

If you don’t want to risk paying child support, don’t have children. Don’t want your wife to be a SAHM or risk paying alimony? Choose someone with high earning potential who shares your lifestyle goals. Most of the objections you seem to have are not about getting married, but having children.

Divorce is definitely a drain on finances, but the idea that you will lose half of your earnings is a dated concept. Most women work outside the home and while there are still financial disparities between spouses, it’s not as exaggerated. In many dual-income homes, both spouses are contributing equally.

[–]OraleEse13 0 points1 point  (12 children) | Copy Link

The real danger isn't children. It's a SAHM.

[–]liefelijk 1 point2 points  (11 children) | Copy Link

So don’t marry someone who wants to be a SAHM. But either way, if you have children, you will risk having to pay child support.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 2 points3 points  (10 children) | Copy Link

There are many financial incentives for getting married, even if you’re just looking at your individual earning power: you are more likely to get raises and promotions when you “have a family to support” and are treated with more respect.

I'm self employed which means that I decide on my promotions and raises, and I assure you that I will not promote myself nor give myself a raise for getting married =D

Does your girlfriend work right now? Do you want to have kids and how do you plan to cover childcare? Decide how care in early childhood will be covered: through daycare or through a short loss in your partner’s income. Talk this though with your partner and decide if you have similar lifestyle goals.

She works, has a kid, doesn't want to have any more children.

Shared lifestyle goals are the best reason to get married. Having a partner allows you to pool your assets and work together to reach those goals.

Which brings us to... if I was a young man working on my career and I wanted a partner to start a family with then yes.

However at this point I had already met my financial and security goals, she doesn't want to have kids so that goal is out of the question. The only thing left is basically to enjoy ourselves.

I do not feel like I have to provide her with the security of marriage to do so.

[–]liefelijk 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

Even if you’re self-employed, you still will be given more respect and clout from customers, networking connections, etc. if you are married. Culturally, you’re seen as more mature and trustworthy. There are also many tax, retirement, inheritance, and other cultural benefits to marriage.

Removing the childcare element definitely makes things easier, but unfortunately “not feeling like you have to provide her with the security of marriage” does not cancel out her desire for that security. If she wants marriage enough that she asked you to propose, it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to reason your way out of it. Her desires are just as valid as yours in this situation, so if marriage is a non-starter for you, she may walk away.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 2 points3 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

Even if you’re self-employed, you still will be given more respect and clout from customers, networking connections, etc. if you are married. Culturally, you’re seen as more mature and trustworthy. There are also many tax, retirement, inheritance, and other cultural benefits to marriage.

I have zero or very little benefit from any of that.

Removing the childcare element definitely makes things easier, but unfortunately “not feeling like you have to provide her with the security of marriage” does not cancel out her desire for that security. If she wants marriage enough that she asked you to propose, it’s unlikely that you’ll be able to reason your way out of it. Her desires are just as valid as yours in this situation, so if marriage is a non-starter for you, she may walk away.

If I want the security of the marriage, I'm going take her out on some very special event, kneel down, take out the ring and ask her to marry me. I want something, and I ask for it.

And she just... asks me to propose to her?

How does this sound "Ask me to wash my dishes."?

[–]liefelijk 5 points6 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

So you see no benefits to marriage, but she does. You’re at an impasse, since no one is “wrong” here (and this isn’t something where there’s a middle ground). Your desires are just incompatible.

[–]FancyCocktailOlive 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

If you consider marrying your girlfriend to be a chore like dishes, why are you in a relationship with her?

[–]hemaristhysbe 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

She doesn’t need the security; you do.

[–]Friedidli 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

I will always see it as a demerit.

If i get married i will take a corporate job and earn as much as i can to settle my family, to give my kids the best shot at an easier life.

If i was to remain a bachelor i am content working in a government medical College perhaps pushing for the establishment of a transplantation unit.

The version of me without a family is infinitely better for my country than the one who is married.

Also to your constant point of respect from other people. Fuck that.

Other people's respect helps you fuck a when you are in trouble. It's like a 2+ charisma boost that only works when you are not in combat. Fuck respect. Acquire raw currency and influence. That overawed all the respect you want.

You think customers are gonna come to my restaurant (hypothetical) if i am married?

You think people are gonna come to me fir treatment if they know that i have a wife.

Thats a mind numbing level of bullshit.

Definitely not worth getting married over.

[–]liefelijk 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Completely valid for you to choose that. But many people do desire the additional earnings and respect gained from getting married.

As for your questions, there’s lots that goes into it, but yes. Many studies have been done that show a bias towards married men. Lenders are more likely to invest in your restaurant if you are married, you have more social connections to build your brand, you are more likely to be offered a partnership or be offered a buy-in to a practice, etc.

[–]childish_badda_bingo 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Lol. The “incentives” certainly don’t outweigh the costs. There’s a very high likelihood the lower earner is going to take half the assets and also get basically perpetual child support payments.

[–]liefelijk 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

If you are worried about child support, then don’t have kids. That happens with or without a ring.

Worried about alimony? Marry someone with good earning potential.

[–]Swapsta 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Worried about alimony? Marry someone with good earning potential.

So if I flip this if a couple have a huge difference in earnings they shouldn't marry.

[–]liefelijk 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Typically, alimony is provided only when one spouse does not have a college degree or has been out of the workforce for a significant period of time raising children.

So if you marry someone with good earning potential (with some education) and choose not to have them be a SAHM, you won’t pay alimony. The best, most stable bet for both parties is to have the mother work at least part time while the children are young. That gives both parties financial protection and autonomy.

And if you choose not to have children, then there’s no reason for one spouse to completely stop work.

[–]bluestjuicePeople are wrong on the internet! 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I don’t see that it matters who does the proposing. Either party can propose, either party can accept or refuse. Everybody gets agency.

People are going to have different opinions about what benefit marriage would bring to the relationship, and not all possible benefits have a financial lens, so I don’t see earning potential as all that relevant.

[–]cowfishAreReal 2 points3 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

there is no PRO's in marriage for me

The biggest the difference in income the more of a tax brake you get for being married, that's certainly a benefit. Not to mention stuff like sharing health insurance from an employer, being able to make medical decisions for your partner if they're unconscious, or married men living longer

I used to believe that marriage exists because of the children, however if I make a kid outside of the marriage, mother can easily make me pay child support. And I can request shared custody.

Children that live with 2 parents are proven to be more successful in pretty much every way, so if you care about your children you should probably only have one when married.

[–]cuckedalt 4 points5 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

So recently I got asked to propose

I should get proposed to...

Sounds like you were

[–]Orange_PaisleyDowager Empress 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

I’m already married and the higher earner, and he proposed. It doesn’t really sound like you believe in marriage though so you are free not to indulge.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Actually I wanted to get married when I was younger.

However after reaching my financial and security goals on my own, getting to old to raise kids... I fail to see the point.

I do believe marriage is good for people which want to create a family and raise kids, without that it's just divorce rape contract.

[–]Orange_PaisleyDowager Empress 1 point2 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

I married my husband when I was 49 and he was 55. I’ll be honest, I was wary because it’s my 2nd marriage and again, I’m the higher earner. My former FiL wiped my MiL out in the divorce and she is also the higher earner. She’s bounced back beautifully, bless her. Anyway that gave me pause. But it’s been worth it and though I didn’t think it would change our bond, it really has. But you do you.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

You had took a risk that you didn't had to.

You do you, I'll do me.

[–]Orange_PaisleyDowager Empress 3 points4 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

I took it because of the uncertainty of the world (early pandemic) and he was sick (tumor). It’s both outperformed and outlived my expectations.

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great then don't get married. Nobody here wants to force you to get married.

[–]sernamedeleted 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Relationships are based on open and honest communication between mature consenting adults who treat each other with respect and share common interests and compatible life goals.

Income disparity is meaningless.

[–]Nodeal_redditNo Pill 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

This organization strongly disagrees with your opinion.

https://aaml.org

[–]Nodeal_redditNo Pill 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

A higher earning male takes on ALL of the risk in a marriage, with no upside.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_freeroll

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 1 point2 points  (4 children) | Copy Link

If you don't want to get married then don't get married. The only person who cares whether you do or do not want to get married or are for or against marriage would be whoever you happened to be dating.

Also it is spelled break not brake.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (3 children) | Copy Link

Also it is spelled break not brake.

Damn my English is getting rusted.

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Also don't get married. Your GF would be happier in a relationship with somebody who shares her values and does not want to humiliate her by logically demanding she propose.

Just be single.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

It's a romantic custom, nothing humiliating about it.

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Your GF might feel differently which is why I think you are incompatible.

[–]AbbreviationsHot1200 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

The female suicide rate might actually reach parity with men's if women became the ones expected to propose.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

We'd have Female Proposal Strategy in no time.

[–]featheredsnake 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

I understand your point and I share the same feeling. I'm not a high-high earner but I do ok with the amount of money and free time I get from my business. I agree with the sentiment completely. Marriage from this position (at least the way marriage is setup right now) does feel like a huge vulnerability. If things go south, I am the only one that loses from the arrangement so it feels stupid to get married.

[–]trolltaskforce 3 points4 points  (3 children) | Copy Link

Marriage (in America+Canada at least) is just nonsense and can not be supported by any reasonable thinking person.

[–]briiiana1122No Pill 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

It seems pretty different in the US. In Canada it is for sure, it’s pointless unless you are religious I suppose. All the expense of my divorce would have occurred weather or not we had the also expensive party. Common law, time of cohabitation, shared property owned ect, ect, ect are the metrics, not the legal document.

[–]trolltaskforce 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Canada is a grade A shit hole.

[–]briiiana1122No Pill 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

🤷🏻‍♀️ k

[–]MelodiousTones 2 points3 points  (12 children) | Copy Link

Mothers often stay home with children, sacrificing earning potential. It’s not fair for a woman to have sacrificed 10 years of no income to her three kids and then upon divorce, be abandoned with few prospects very low income and three kids to take care of. That’s why child support and alimony exist.

Secondly, you act as if love doesn’t exist and marriage is purely transactional. People get married because they are in love, people who get married for other reasons end up divorced. You don’t understand the kind of deep and abiding love that exists in a marriage such as mine, which is almost 21 years long now.

Stop pretending true love doesn’t exist. Relationships are not transactional.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (7 children) | Copy Link

Mothers often stay home with children, sacrificing earning potential. It’s not fair for a woman to have sacrificed 10 years of no income to her three kids and then upon divorce, be abandoned with few prospects very low income and three kids to take care of. That’s why child support and alimony exist.

True. And if one partner does sacrifice his/her earning potential to take care of the kids and household he/she does deserve to be compensated in the case of divorce.

However if there are no children, there is no need to take care of the household... partner which earns less will get "compensated" for sacrifice he/she didn't made. Why would higher earing partner want to marry?

Secondly, you act as if love doesn’t exist and marriage is purely transactional. People get married because they are in love, people who get married for other reasons end up divorced. You don’t understand the kind of deep and abiding love that exists in a marriage such as mine, which is almost 21 years long now.

Stop pretending true love doesn’t exist. Relationships are not transactional.

In case of a divorce one partner has to give stuff to other partner... by definition marriage is transactional.

If you want a relationship which is not transactional then... don't get married.

[–]MelodiousTones 0 points1 point  (6 children) | Copy Link

A parent has to give the child stuff too. Is that relationship also transactional?

There’s no law saying the higher earning spouse owes the lower one money or more than half their stuff.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (5 children) | Copy Link

A parent has to give the child stuff too. Is that relationship also transactional?

That's a problem with you women... you don't really know what transactional relationship means. But you sure do like to throw that term around.

A transactional relationship is when couples treat marriage as a business deal. Kind of like someone brings home the bacon, and the other partner cooks it, sets the table, wash the dishes, while the breadwinner watches football. Traditional gender roles are excellent examples of transactional relationships.

Parent gives stuff to children, and it turn parent doesn't get anything. That's a non transactional relationship.

There’s no law saying the higher earning spouse owes the lower one money or more than half their stuff.

Actually lower earning partner can sue for alimony money.

[–]MelodiousTones 1 point2 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I’m arguing that marriage is not by default “transactional” as you define it here.

True love exists and many old couples die within hours of each other. I have been married for 21 years. How long have you been married? How can you possibly even know anything about marriage generally.

[–]MelodiousTones 1 point2 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Am I allowed to say “you men”? Why is that valid?

[–]Swapsta -1 points0 points  (1 child) | Copy Link

Mothers often stay home with children, sacrificing earning potential. It’s not fair for a woman to have sacrificed 10 years of no income to her three kids and then upon divorce, be abandoned with few prospects very low income and three kids to take care of. That’s why child support and alimony exist.

See compensating them is fine and all but giving them a % of money rather than just a set amount of $/day.

If somehow person a is married to b, and b is the SAHM and a becomes a multi millionaire. A divorce would give millions to the SAHM... For being a SAHM. The man took the risk of making a company but loses millions to the SAHM(in case of a divorce) who took 0 risk. Giving % of your wealth instead of a flat fee to the sacrificing partner is just wealth transfer disguised as equality.

Case in point bezos's wife.

[–]liefelijk 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Jeff Bezos founded Amazon with his wife. She worked at Amazon for years while they grew the company, then stopped to focus on caring for their children and her writing career.

They were married for 26 years while Amazon grew into the behemoth it is today. She was heavily involved with getting Amazon off the ground and her Amazon stock reflects that.

[–][deleted]  (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted]  (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]wtknightGen X Slacker[M] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

No personal attacks

[–]pearllovespink 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Stop trying to reverse gender roles. It’s getting pathetic guys.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

Stop trying to reverse gender roles.

Never!

[–]pearllovespink 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

It will never work out in your favor. This situation is unrealistic just like the other 95% of reverse gender role concepts.

[–]januaryphilosopherBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point  (11 children) | Copy Link

If you think that the higher earning partner is less willing to marry, it should follow that the less willing person should propose. Otherwise the less willing partner will probably propose when the other isn't ready and just get a no. If you think the marriage contract is one-sided and don't want it, then don't propose, and don't say yes if your partner does. But it's a burden on the less willing partner so they can't then say "well you were the one who forced me into it". (Which is, by the way, part of the reason why I feel it's my job to propose.)

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

Higher earning partner is getting a shorter end of the stick in the marriage, but he/she also might be a more willing partner since not everything is about money.

Either way I am a higher earning and less willing partner and I'm being asked to ask her to marry me.

Which frankly seems like a bunch of B.S.

[–]januaryphilosopherBlue Pill Woman 2 points3 points  (2 children) | Copy Link

If someone is the higher earner and more willing, your argument doesn't even apply. You haven't said anything meaningful against my argument.

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child) | Copy Link

OK something meaningful against your argument.

If you only ask when you are less willing partner that means that you will never ask for a raise. Because your employer is never willing to give you a better pay.

You will also never ask a person which you think is hotter then you out.

Your fear of rejection will result in you being an underachiever in every aspect of your life.

If you want to get things then sometimes you have to risk getting burned.

[–]januaryphilosopherBlue Pill Woman 1 point2 points  (0 children) | Copy Link

You're talking about completely different situations and dynamics now. These people might want to give you the thing you want or might not, you're uncertain of whether they want to give you the thing rather than knowing they're not ready. It just doesn't make sense to ask someone to marry you when they're not ready. Which is why you should ask if you're the last one to be ready.

[–][deleted]  (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted]  (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] 0 points1 point  (2 children) | Copy Link

Be civil.

[–]Mrs_DrgreeWomen Are Right About Islam[M] 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Be civil.

[–]mandoa_sky 0 points1 point  (10 children) | Copy Link

so you're saying that you don't believe in "traditions"

it's traditional for the guy to "ask her father for permission to marry" and then propose.

if you don't like the split there's always something called a legal pre-nup and lawyers

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children) | Copy Link

To heck with traditions.

She is the one which wants to get married... so she needs to propose to me.

If she want's to ask my mother for my hand that's fine with me.

[–]mandoa_sky 1 point2 points  (8 children) | Copy Link

tell her that.

then let her decide what she wants next - problem solved

[–]smallstarseekerPurple Pill Man[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children) | Copy Link

This is not me asking for advice or trying to find support from internet strangers for my decision.

I just shared my life experience and opinion as open for debate.

I had told her that I'm not going to ask me to marry her.

[–]mandoa_sky 2 points3 points  (5 children) | Copy Link

ah i see. you don't want to marry HER. so long as she knows then it's all ethical

[–]goatismycopilotcatladycatladycatlady🐐🐐🐐🐐 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Great do not get married.

[–]Rushbyb 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I love you sooo much lets get the government involved, gross no thanks. Most genders have no commitment today so im not about to lose half my shit.

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[–]Basketballjuice 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

I mean, you'll get cheaper taxes and insurance and stuff. A good prenup and you'll be alright.

[–]MrMushySauce 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. Like, why would you be the one to ask to give the other person more than they give you?

Maybe the issue is in how you feel about the particular person? Or in how you uniquely process the intersection of marital norms to your relationship? Because the problem really is the misalignment between expected practices and how you feel about the relationship. If you were with a partner who you felt comfortable and confident with what she was offering in relation to what you were offering, this question/idea wouldn't make sense.

[–]sabiinvestingNo Pill 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

So here’s a thing. My dad was sure to be the higher earning partner soon when he proposed to my mom. He proposed to my mom within one month of meeting her, which my mom thought he was nuts for. My dad was so sure that he wanted to marry my mom, and didn’t to lose her to another man. Whoever wants to get married more to the other person should be proposing.

And hey… if you feel that way, don’t get married. That’s not a good mindset to get married with.

[–]briiiana1122No Pill 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

You don’t need to do any of this kind of rationalization for marriage if you just choose your partner on the basis of them being your equal partner.

The whole trajectory men seem so keen on sets them up for the exact scenario they scream and faint over when talking about divorce. If you want marriage and kids, do it with someone who brings what you bring to the table. Don’t use your money to get a younger wife with no job prospects and make her a stay at home mom. Divorce from that relationship is exactly the scenario that alimony exists for.

[–]BadSpanglish2 0 points1 point  (0 children) | Copy Link

As a higher earner which is equipped with a penis, and thereby I do not have a full control of who the father is there is no PRO's in marriage for me.

I still think the high earner needs to propose in a good relationship. Otherwise you basically have the poorer partner asking for a lifelong handout. If you, as the higher earner, are willing to make the commitment and look after the lower earner - and take the majority of the divorce risk - then you are free to propose.

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

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