~ archived since 2018 ~

Not getting hookups? Might be because you're tackling the game while sober and chasing sober women

BrainMarshal

May 18, 2024

69 upvotes

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/strictly-casual/201401/in-hookups-alcohol-is-college-students-best-friend

https://cdn.psychologytoday.com/sites/default/files/styles/image-article_inline_full/public/blogs/142736/2014/01/142999-144363.jpg?itok=424CK7CB

Well these numbers snatch the dark out of grimdark when it comes to hookups. 90% of hookups appear to be the result of alcohol being involved. Quite often 4 or more drinks, no less. A single drink is correlated with the majority of hookups for first time encounters down to even hookups between friends. Four or more drinks are correlated with most hookups with strangers and acquaintances.

Think about that the next time you walk up on and try to "score" with a sober woman. It probably isn't you that failed, it's that she's sober. I for one find that an encouraging fact but to each their own.

(Credit to u/ta06012022 for pointing out this statistic)

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Post Information

Title	Not getting hookups? Might be because you're tackling the game while sober and chasing sober women
Author	BrainMarshal
Upvotes	69
Comments	218
Date	May 18, 2024 1:28 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1cultyu/not_getting_hookups_might_be_because_youre/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/not-getting-hookups-might-be-because-youre.1518804 https://theredarchive.com/post/1518804

Comments

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 70 points71 points72 points 2 years ago (45 children) | Copy Link

[–]Azweik 32 points33 points34 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 36 points37 points38 points 2 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, I think the men here are very high inhibition, and are looking at/crushing on either high inhibition women (who they have more in common with, but are even less likely to have sex or make it easy for them to approach) or low inhibition women, who they have nothing in common with and who won't be interested in someone who is sober, anxious/neurotic (viewed as judgmental), and doesn't like to go to the club.

The big complaints here I see are basically that there is no easy way for high inhibition people to meet. It used to be the church, and the route was different -- they would be a church guy, they would meet a church girl, their families would probably facilitate their first date and help them navigate potential pitfalls, and that would smooth over the neuroticism/anxiety that dating inherently causes. This doesn't work in the modern world -- men and women are less religious, and since women can avoid having babies, the church's requirement that they follow the man's decisions is less appealing -- they have the ability to control their fate and not be debilitated by an unexpected pregnancy or the demands of children (ie need a provider).

As it currently stands, high inhibition men see low inhibition women, who hook up regularly, and high inhibition women, who will demand a lot and have long checklists before even considering a man -- and see them as the same group, as they are both on the same apps and their opinions are visible in the same places online. So, they decide that they want to have sex ASAP, and will find a lifetime partner on the way, otherwise they are getting cheated.

Similarly, a high inhibition woman sees that men want to have sex ASAP and possibly won't commit, and so either opt out of dating or set very high standards to screen out people just looking for sex.

In the end, neither side gets what it wants, because the solutions they have are adversarial to the interests of the other side. Worsening this situation is that the type of ideologies these sides adopt further entrench the divide -- a high inhibition woman is going to be most concerned about her wellbeing and most anxious about men hurting her, so will adopt liberal viewpoints, as those are most likely to further the independence of women and are least permissive of bad behavior from men. A high inhibition man is going to be most concerned about his future success and most anxious about women exploiting him, so will want more conservative viewpoints, as those are least permissive of bad behavior from women and most likely to proclaim the superiority of men. (Obviously this oversimplifies things and there are conservative women and liberal men, but these are basically the archetypes on this subreddit)

Edit: added some to be verbs, revised some wording to make comment more neutral

[–]_notaxation 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PattayaVagabond 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

What stops you from going to spaces with lower inhibition women, such as clubs/festivals?

Edit: One thing I didn't really focus on is that there are more low-inhibition men than low-inhibition women in general. That is why men are more likely to participate in high-risk activities like extreme sports or dangerously goof off (a la /r/WhyWomenLiveLonger). Which means the demand for low inhibition women is higher, so they get to choose more attractive men and men that superficially appear high status with fancy cars or posturing or whatever. And it is also why the expectation is that men approach.

This was also semi-fixed with the church-version of dating, because low inhibition men had to act high inhibition and so eventually could end up with a partner, but didn't address the fundamental issue that a low-inhibition person's outlook on life is a lot different than a high inhibition person's, so a lot of those unions would be miserable, with one person anxious and critical and the other apathetic and harassed.

[–]PattayaVagabond 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]kongeriketMarried Red Pill Man | Sex positive | European 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In the end, neither side gets what it wants, because the solutions they have are adversarial to the interests of the other side.

A surprisingly good comment 👍

If reddit had a "friend" option, I'd "add" you.

Now, onto the point: As a mature man who actually helps young men, what I found to work the most is quite literally take their smartphones away. If that is not possible, then at the very least get them off of those darn apps.

Yes, my mentees hate me when I put them through basic dancing and push them into nightclubs and concerts. But they only hate me through the first 3-4-5 nights/attempts. Afterwards, they slowly start controlling their anxiety better and, before you know it, the number of "yes" suddenly jumps from zero to something non-zero. The number of "ewww, no!" answers when asking for a girl's number suddenly drops from a lot to barely ever.

Where I come from, it's fathers who do this with their sons. But with the rise of fatherlessness, the knowledge gets lost and is supplemented by neurotic rants on the Internet.

[–]TRTGymBro1Purple Pill Man 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]toasterchildWoman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]dislikesBSS 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]DertrossRed Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]dislikesBSS 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KurlyKaylaConcerned Woman 🤨 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]DertrossRed Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Not my fault you're too stupid to follow. I can spell it out for you:

When twerps harp on about criminals impregnating lots of women I like to point out the sort of women they impregnate.

This is the observation that "bad men are more successful with women than good men"

Your average twerp would be scared by them.

This is implying that the reason the above observation is happening is because the "good men" are "too scared" to be with those women.

Implying that the reason "bad men are more successful than with women than good men" is because the "good men" don't want to be with women enough, causing the observation to happen.

Those women aren't interested in "squares" or "corny" men at all.

Is a refutation of that alternative explanation: men want all kinds of women, it is the women who do not want the "good men". The evidence being that these negative memes exist that women use to describe the "good men" that they are not attracted to, and no similar memes exist to diminish the social or sexual value of "bad men" among those women.

Now go ahead and pretend that women are thirsting for the math nerds and are only ending up with drug dealers and thugs because said math nerds scorn them. It's obvious that's not what is happening, the drug dealers and thugs are the women's first choice.

[–]KurlyKaylaConcerned Woman 🤨 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Gold_Supermarket1956Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Uh, yes, do not have sex with someone who is passed out…

Let me be clearer— only people who have a good grip on social interactions already and can understand body language should do this. If someone is autistic they probably won’t be able to have hookups, because interactions with strangers are less defined than with people you know. I am not saying you should go home with someone wasted. I am not saying that the person should be pressured into going home together. They should be showing interest in you pretty clearly throughout your interactions, like, full on making out in public with a lot of chemistry, saying how much they like you while one drink in, suggesting that you go home together. If you feel iffy about it get a number instead.

But if you look at the chart in the post, it clearly shows that 88% of sexual interactions with strangers involves drinking, and those don’t all end in rape accusations.

[–]Gold_Supermarket1956Purple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BrainMarshalPurple Pill Man The Bear-Shifting AI Art Freak[S] 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ayaka_Simp_Red Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]KizkaBlue Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the number of people doing this entirely sober is over exaggerated. The women I know who do app hookups talk on the app over some time then meet the man first, sober, in public, making it not a one night stand. Then usually drink or smoke or sth when they go to whoever’s apartment. They have situationships/FWBs and obviously have sex sober then. I mean, I don’t hookup, but I have to imagine that meeting a stranger and then just fucking them is really awkward? Like I have a hard time conceptualizing the desire to do that. I’d definitely need a drink (or a lot of drinks) even if it was a world class attractive stranger.

You can see from the chart in the post that 85%+ of “stranger” hookups involved alcohol, and 60%+ involved 4+ drinks. Which aligns closer to my understanding

[–]BeneficialEstate8219 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022 11 points12 points13 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Your personal experience is dramatically different from the data, but the fact remains that alcohol is involved the vast majority of times women hook up with strangers.

I would say that "seeking out" drunk women, especially if you're sober, sounds predatory. That's a little different from naturally being in the same place as drunk women on a regular basis. Through most of my time in college, I went out to parties/bars probably 2-3 times a week. I wasn't necessarily intentionally looking to hook up most nights, and in the vast majority of cases I didn't hook up. But in a small % of cases I did.

Because most hook ups involve alcohol, a guy who spends a lot of time in a place with alcohol is more likely to stumble into a hookup than a guy who never spends time where alcohol is consumed. Frequenting bars or parties alone doesn't make a guy a predator.

[–]BeneficialEstate8219 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree with what you're saying in principle. I'm just pointing out that most hookups are fueled by alcohol.

I think some guys are bothered by the fact that they haven't experienced hookups, but also don't really take into account that they haven't really spent much time in settings where 90% of hookups occur. Hookups generally involve women who have been drinking, so naturally being in the same place as the women who are involved in hookups increases a guy's probability of finding one.

I'm not saying that's how it should be, but it's the reality of casual sex among young people in the US.

Simply put you should not need drugs to fuck women. If you do, then you need to work on yourself.

I agree with that. I do just fine on dating apps, where I assume most women aren't drunk most of the time (obviouly drunk people use apps too, but people usually aren't drunk), so it's not like I'm reliant on alcohol to meet women. That doesn't change the fact that most hookups involve alcohol though.

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I found your survey here:

Almost one in four undergraduate women experienced sexual assault or misconduct at 33 of the nation's major universities.

Here is how they defined rape or assault in the survey:

Physical assault/rape:

“…. someone holding you down with his or her body weight, pinning your arms, hitting or kicking you, or using or threatening to use a weapon against you.”

Here is they defined the inability to consent or stop what was happening

"was defined with the following introduction:

“The next questions ask about incidents when you were unable to consent or stop what was happening because you were passed out, asleep, or incapacitated due to drugs or alcohol.”

with the word "unable" underlined. I don't think the wording is particularly good, but it is also not what you claim it is

[–]HillOrc 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]DivisiveUsernameBlue Pill Woman (but looks matter) 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

Here is how that survey defined it:

"Rape is any completed or attempted unwanted vaginal (for women), oral, or anal penetration through the use of physical force (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threats to physically harm and includes times when the victim was too drunk, high, drugged, or passed out from alcohol or drugs and unable to consent. Rape is separated into three types: 1) completed forced penetration, 2) attempted forced penetration, and 3) completed alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration. Among women, rape includes vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes vaginal or anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object. Among men, rape includes oral or anal penetration by a male using his penis. It also includes anal penetration by a male or female using their fingers or an object."

It didnt exist on the CDC website anymore so I had to use the wayback machine, link to pdf here, definition on page 6:

https://web.archive.org/web/20221210172536/https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf

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I agree the survey is not well worded, like the one above. Probably a worse offender. But it does not reach the point where most people would read it and interpret it to be so broad.

The survey does not have implications for lawmaking -- no one is going to define rape based on how a survey defined it. Lawmakers in general stray towards precedent, the court is even more inclined in that direction, so the chances of someone being judged guilty for rape in this circumstance are approximately 0.

Who can tell her she’s wrong? That’s her own subjective experience.

Most people who hear that someone had one drink by their own admission (and was not claiming they were drugged/roofied) would not take that claim seriously. This will not change because of a poorly defined question.

And in fact many women who regret having sex with a guy for various reasons, such as the guy ghosting her after, or her being caught cheating, could very well use whatever amount of alcohol or drugs as the real reason for why the sex happened, so now she’s accountability free and was raped in actuality, even if the substances were not what ASSUME are defined as too much.

People can use their own judgement for this, as it is a personal issue. Is this a person you respect, does not tend to hysterically exaggerate/catastrophize, and is responsible? If so, you may have reason to believe her when she claims she is too drunk. If not, then don't. She is only accountability free in her own mind, you are free to decide what you will.

I would rather they cut that bit out and just left it as drugged/passed out, but in context I still think that is how most people with a brain will look at it, and therefore there is no need to catastrophize it.

[–]HillOrc4 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The reason it’s important to specify what the level of sobriety is, is because these statistics are used to shame men and to scare women. While you have some good arguments, the truth is that “too drunk/high” is still a highly subjective thing to go off of.

Also, many perhaps most young women who are having casual sex are partaking in alcohol and/or drugs. Think of a bar, club, house party or first date. These are the settings where casual sex generally happens. They also tend to involve substances.

A young woman who goes to clubs 20 times a year has variable levels of intoxication during each event. Let’s say she’s already hooked up with a few different guys and didn’t feel she was “too drunk” with them, but on a subsequent outing she hooked up with another guy and felt she was too intoxicated. Let’s give the guy the benefit of the doubt and say he wasn’t an evil predator, but also drunk himself. Okay… so she’s been raped now?

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Made to penetrate is defined and reported separately in the survey, here is the definition on the same page --

Being made to penetrate someone else (asked of males only) includes times when a victim was made to, or an attempt was made to make them, sexually penetrate someone without the victim’s consent because the victim was physically forced (such as being pinned or held down, or by the use of violence) or threatened with physical harm, or when the victim was too drunk, high, drugged, or passed out from alcohol and drugs and unable to consent. Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; being made to orally penetrate a female’s vagina or anus; being made to anally penetrate a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes male and female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

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not the feminist state i live in, unless that’s some semantics shit on rape vs sexual assault. respectfully be careful with where you’re getting your impression of feminism, none of my feminist and gender studies professors would defend that, i doubt more than 1 or 2% of serious academic feminists nationwide would ever say that. on behalf of chill reasonable grass touching feminists im sorry men have even had to hear that shit, let alone multiple times to the point where you think that’s mainstream feminism. that just sucks.

when i run into crazy radicals online, i always try to get them to realize that take is rooted in internalized misogyny and feeds misandrist oppression. the internalization of women as “the penetrated” in being completely passive and having 0 agency, inherently following the man’s lead, that’s the root of “so they can’t rape men.” it’s bullshit on several levels.

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There has been at least one other post on this forum about how much easier it is to have sex with drunk women. Of course it is as consent gets fuzzier and fuzzier until you get the Brock Turner situation. And guys can be drunk and the recipients of unwanted sex too.

Society needs to fix that. Amy Schumer for instance literally bragged about sexually assaulting two men and she's still running around. The flak she got about this was very fleeting, in fact when she confessed to it, they just laughed. We're still in that atmosphere now. Women find it hard to get their cases taken seriously. Men just get laughed at. I struggle to find the feminist backlash against her. MeToo never hit her career. The only people going after her are men's groups.

Even if all involved are just a bit buzzed, and you both enthusiastically consent. How good buzzed are you at dealing with birth control. Maybe the woman is a normal heavy drinker who isn't good at keeping herself on birth control. Ugh.

That is all pretty much icing on the cake IMO. A decent man will not want to take advantage of a woman who is decision-impaired, that right there should wilt his willie. Although if he's decision-impaired there's almost certainly going to be a train wreck lol

[–]Bekiala2 points 2 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]quantum_prankster 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

90% of these dudes aren't winning anything, really. Guys who missed out on hookups should be encouraged by this. I certainly feel better and more justified about hating hookups.

This is weird and seems to prove the point isn't the sex? If you just wanted flex, then be the locker room braggart -- cool fact is, you didn't even have to really do it. People aren't walking lie detectors or something. And if you really did do it, for all I know, you're still a locker room braggart. Either way you kinda look like Trump in that interview where he said "Grab 'em by the ....." It isn't such a good look, this "flex" thing.

I have my job and social status and the respect and admiration of society for validation. I thought the point of a hookup was a fun time?

But if I were seeking what I get from being a respected engineering consultant, from sex with someone.... God have mercy on my soul, I would shoot myself.

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I had a friend of a friend who was really freaking hot and recently went through a break up. She was hellbent on getting laid and I was her first target. We made out in one of the hottest spontaneous make out sessions of my life but at some point she lost her balance and stumbled a little bit and I realized she was drunk. So, I backed off and turned her down. She just found some other random dude that night and hooked up with him instead.

Alcohol did not influence her decision to hookup. She was already hellbent on hooking up with someone and she willingly went out and consumed alcohol to help lower inhibitions/worry and make that happen.

I think a lot of sentiment regarding alcohol and rape is founded in hatred of men and male sexual desire. If a drunk man and drunk woman have sex, he’s somehow the rapist and the one taking advantage of her, as if women can’t possibly take advantage of men and always have to be victims of vile men. Do you know how many times ugly women have had to try to woo me while I’m drunk? If a woman’s SO went out and cheated on them and cited alcohol as the excuse, they would absolutely call BS. It’s designed to demonize men.

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I would argue that "going after drunk chicks" vs. "hooking up with a girl when you both happen to be drunk" are two different things.

For example, I went to this party in college where a girl grabbed me and started dancing with me. I thought she was hot, so that was fine. After a few minutes she started kissing me, then grabbed my hand and basically just pulled me into an empty bedroom in the house where we started making out.

I don't think I did anything predatory in that situation (nor did she, since I was into it), but I'm pretty sure it never would have happened if she had been sober and I had passed her in the library instead. Alcohol lowers inhibitions, and lowered inhibitions result in hookups. If you're regularly in the settings where hookups occur, you're much more likely to stumble into a hookup.

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And I hope you're sitting down for this