Women's options and being picky.

AngelicChagrin · 2020-02-21T18:17:42+00:00

Your essay described why women do not wish to take the many options available to them. Yet your thesis was that women do not, in fact, have more options than men.

You did nothing to make the case as stated, you only showed why certain women may find certain options undesirable, which is not equivalent to said options not existing.

AngelicChagrin · 2020-02-21T17:30:36+00:00

I’ve seen this argument more than once now about gay men.

There’s two problems with this analogy.

1) most of this visceral disgust is due to homophobia, both in terms of how disgusted people are by it and how many men are extremely worried about being perceived as gay due to the stereotypes associated and the fear it makes them unattractive to women.

You’re basically saying women view sub-8/10 men how homophobes view gay people. Not really a good look.

2) on top of this attitude basically being compared to bigotry in your own argument, it’s also not the same. Sexuality is pretty clearly an innate thing. Not being attracted to someone because they’re the wrong gender is very different to not being attracted because they’re below your bar of standards for two reasons: the standards are much more about your personality and entitlement - and therefore are something that can change, not to mention he can also change too. Mike won’t ever be a woman I could date, unless he’s a closeted trans chick who transitions VERY WELL, but I’m under the assumption he’s a man. Mike might not be your type, he might be a little too short or too chubby or a bit awkward but holy fuck that’s not the same.

You’re treating a man below your threshold as an entirely different gender of creepy monsters and it’s fucking weird.

goatismycopilot · 2020-02-21T16:11:08+00:00

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darudeboysandstorm · 2020-02-21T15:59:14+00:00

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Jathrowaway97 · 2020-02-21T16:41:21+00:00

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tritter211 · 2020-02-21T16:57:42+00:00

Since this is marked CMV, I will attempt to do so.

First off, before I write anything, I should tell you that classic TRP material doesn't actually disagree with you on any of your points. We know that attraction is not a choice, and that its a fool's errand to think otherwise. And TRP is a toolbox on how to make a woman feel attracted to you on her own.

on your points 1.) and 2.) and 3.) on why I think the gap DOES matter:

Remember....we are in purple pill territory here, aren't we? And according to purple pill, which I assume is where we try to hold a pragmatic position between the blue pill world and the red pill world, I would argue its important that we teach women to not unilaterally embrace hypergamy at the expense of everything else.

Saying that the gap does not matter is you trying to put women on pedestal and you not taking a long term view on what you are actually proposing. As the famous saying goes, beauty is only skin deep. So remember, you might feel like you are a queen in your young years, but you STILL have to live upto 80-100 years assuming the best case scenario here. And all these advantages that women enjoy will only be available to them in the ages 18-38 max unless you are a true genetic exception.

Hypergamy only works if it is properly calibrated to function within civilized society like it used to in the past. But we don't have anything of that sort in modern day. In fact, we have what I would call "unrestrained hypergamy." in today's society. This is catastrophe happening in slow motion. Because, statistically, 90% women can't have 10% of men by themselves. That literally can't happen the same way you trying to prove 1+1=12 is a thing. And the more we let the minority dictate the whole dating/relationship market, the worse the inequality will get. We call it "sexual inequality" similar to income inequality.

The more we have inequality, the worse the society gets. You already know why income inequality is a bad thing. Now take a look at the arguments against income inequality and apply it to "sexual inequality" and the arguments will be still valid in terms of the wider social and economic implications.

And as another famous saying goes.... too much of anything is good for nothing. You are basically fostering conditions that are biased towards women at the expense of men, and everything good, society wise. We need women to start marrying early without delusional sense of worth about their true market potential and live off their middle ages and old age in peace. We also need men to have partners so that they don't slog off and NOT make a dent in our economy.

Human race depends on the artificial civilization we built on this earth.

Take a good look at the trajectories we face today:

The rates of sexlesness among men is rising by the year.
The rates of single motherhood is also rising. And with it the inevitable rise of criminal behaviors along with them. Take a good look at the black ghettos to get a hint as to how a society will function without functioning fathers to teach them how to behave.
The rates of single women is also rising. Talk to old single women and ask them how its going.

These are only a small fraction of the amount of bad shit that will happen if you let the current status quo to keep continuing.

CatchPhraze · 2020-02-21T15:35:54+00:00

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CentralAdmin · 2020-02-21T17:06:19+00:00

You can substitute out homosexuality with some alien race of women that kill men when they procreate, women who have STDs, mentally unwell women that accuse every man they date of sexual assault or unattractive women. It is not too unreasonable to assume most men would not consider those women in the above situation.

Oh no we get it. But the fact that you're going that far to try to make men understand is ridiculous. It really is not the same because it's basically asking men to sympathise with the fact that no one is good enough. That's a you problem. Women really push this analogy hard as if it would disgust men but men don't even get that kind of unwanted attention generally and, what's worse, is it continues to make women seem shallow. It's also incredibly insulting being told 'you and your ilk are so unattractive it's like living in a world where everyone is gay and ugly...'. You're not going to win anyone over with that argument

If you reversed the genders, these posts would be cringeworthy at an incel level and you'd be told to improve yourself to get a partner instead of complaining about your lack of options.

The issue with this analogy is that it does not really seem that ridiculous.

It does because it not only confers an air of entitlement but if you were truly 'that wealthy' caviar and gourmet food would not be out of your reach.

If she believes herself to be better than the losers she keeps attracting, why isn't she attracting a better quality man?

The analogy works because asking a hungry person to understand the plight of the wealthy is rather rich (punintended) because those wealthy people would not give up the money and privilege to have the problems of the poor.

Even if the woman does misunderstand her value, and that she would not be able to get the man that she wanted to, it does not follow that she should select from that dating pool anyway. A life of Netflix, cats and wine could be (and in most cases probably would be) better than having a relationship with someone you are not attracted to or compatible with.

That's fine but then complaining that it's bad out there when you have matches is a bad idea because you'd invalidate your argument when you have a reasonable solution. Be alone. No one's forcing you to date and, importantly, if you cannot find someone to meet your standards it means you do not meet theirs. Don't be a hypocrite and claim you deserve better or build an argument around men living in a world where people are gay or ugly to make it seem like you have it rough.

Even Norah Vincent, who spent a year and a half as a man, said being a woman is more of a privilege. FtM trans men also speak about the loneliness they feel as men because no one cares. So you're not going to win any favours by trying to make it seem women's dating woes are something men should be understanding of when men cannot even get women interested in dates or sex. At least women have a chance if someone wants to sleep with them.

It seems strange to make comparisons between men and women when it comes to who and how they want to date. Just because men are willing to date or have sex with the first person who comes to them, does not really mean that women should also be doing this as well, and if they refrain from it they are being too “picky”. It also ignores the consideration that having no partner can be better than having a partner, which is what a lot of these men are losing to.

Yes it's strange because women are trying to make their misfortune seem bad enough that men should seriously reconsider how tough it is for women out there. But no woman would give up the privilege she has because she will always hope that she'd be in bed with Chad than alone. The fact that women will not settle is a problem with their perception of their value. You don't have to settle but don't blame men for not understanding because you're a 6 that feels you're worth an 8 and can't stand all the 5s hitting on you.

Finally, men don't consider women picky for not fucking on the first date. Men consider women picky because they aren't realistic about their options then get upset and blame the SMP and men rather than face facts. It is inconceivable that someone who claims to be worth more cannot attract at least one decent human being despite claiming to have several offers. How do women not see the poor logic here? No one's forcing her to open her legs and if she's doing it to avoid being called picky, she's weak willed and there's a reason better quality men won't commit.

TheJim66 · 2020-02-21T15:51:41+00:00

You are making false equivalences.The equivalent of the ugly,weird ,fat dude is the ugly weird fat chick.Nobody actually wants them either .It used to be that these two losers would bang eachother but not anymore.

Anyway ,the thing is that most men aren't like that ,they are average.If the woman wasn't bombarded by messages and request because of OLD and social media these men would have been perfectly fine options and women would choose them.What happened is that the top men in a group of 100 (pre-OLD) arent the same as those in a group of 1000.Your standards rise depending on the options available to you and the people that used to be good enough in a smaller pool don't make the cut in a larger pool.

Counterargument: Women misunderstand their value

Again, these men used to be good enough,the women found them attractive enough.The better men they choose now that don't commit aren't actually options .If women are fine being cat ladies then good for them but don't wonder what happened afterwards or why people warn and criticize their choices.

Karmanger · 2020-02-21T19:09:47+00:00

Devils Advocate:( I think everyone should be picky)

It's been said that female attraction is reactive. How will the women know that they are attracted to said man if they do not give them a chance to get to know them?

Men say Women are picky because they don't even give them the chance to get to know them. When women do give a guy the chance she usually finds that he's the best platonic friend ever!! much to his dismay.

Tyler_Gatsby · 2020-02-21T16:27:14+00:00

I wish this comparing female options to gay men for men thing would finally die. It is not a fitting analogy. You can just say ugly women. You don't have to try and take it to another level.

passepar2t · 2020-02-21T16:15:20+00:00

Aren't you even a little suspicious that everyone's growing preference for being alone isn't subtle mind control from the illuminati who want us to spend more time working for them and less time with our loved ones? Think about it.

Grek27 · 2020-02-21T17:34:38+00:00

If you're average looking(which I'm sure you are) rejecting most men because you're "unattracted" to them just shows your level of entitlment/narcisissm.

bonusfruit · 2020-02-21T21:55:27+00:00

How many words does it take to express the simple concept that women have value and men are disposable

RooseChange · 2020-02-21T22:39:39+00:00

the fact there is 300 short, ugly, weird, incompatible men

This is where this argument always falls apart. It hinges on the preposterous notion that a woman could get a number like 300 hits (which is really on the low end), and she doesn't like a single one? The higher this number goes, the less believable it becomes.

Let's say it's a supermajority, we'll call it 80% of 300, that still leaves sixty eligible men. You're trying to argue this point with guys who will probably not get that many matches total in an entire year.

I'm not saying that having to sort through that many matches is easy, but if you're suggesting that 0 of 300+ men are compatible with you then that's a strong demonstration of you being more picky, not less.

throwawayhouseissue1 · 2020-02-22T02:34:34+00:00

I decided to do a thought experiment to see if I could understand OP better.

I am a guy, but imagine I was constantly being chased by women I find unattractive. They spammed my social media with likes and heart eyes, they slid into my DMs, they say nice things to me everywhere I go in public, but for whatever reason I just can't find them attractive.

I would feel so arrogant to say I am so much better than these women chasing me. "Don't they know my value? Who do they think they are trying to get with me??" I can't really imagine a scenario where I would be that cocky, and if I was that vain and I did date one of those girls? I would probably treat her like garbage if I was coming from a place so conceited. So it gave me an epiphany on why women can treat men so poorly, thanks OP!

RepresentativeSwan1 · 2020-02-21T16:05:46+00:00

The debate over whether or not women should be described as 'picky' is just a pointless argument over semantics.

There is an average difference between the percentages of the opposite sex that men and women find attractive. That is what is being described when people describe women as 'picky'. You can personally think the word 'picky' doesn't appropriately describe this phenomenon if you want. But that doesn't change the underlying fact of the matter.

analt223 · 2020-02-21T16:07:02+00:00

The problem with a lot of this is that the pickiness of women is also being allowed due to the government. The government acting like a silverback gorilla appeasing women while most of us other male gorillas are being told stupid shit (like your post) "well you arent willing to sleep with men" and "nobody owes you anything".

Women just dont deem enough men attractive to end the patriarchy

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MuleFool42 · 2020-02-21T18:36:04+00:00

Historically speaking, in looking at mitochondrial dna, about 40 percent of men and over 60 percent of women have procreated. So women still have it much easier, even when trying to find partners that are acceptable.

Women still have the advantage. Some will choose cats and netflix but others choose to share males that they are attracted to.

No, procreation isn't the only measure, but it illustrates the reality of the dating situation better than your analogies as it usually requires long term commitment to raise children, which usually happens when men and women stay in LTRs.

rus9384 · 2020-02-21T20:31:06+00:00

Are women being picky?

there is 300 short, ugly, weird, incompatible men

I mean, standards must be really high for 0/300 random men to be appealing.

Dora_Bowl · 2020-02-21T21:02:19+00:00

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wtknight · 2020-02-21T16:18:13+00:00

Are women being picky? I would turn to the homosexuality analogy discussed earlier and apply it to this as well.

They’re being picky if they’re being too hypergamous. A woman on an imaginary 50th percentile of attractiveness should be attracted to a 50th percentile male. Perhaps allowing for some hypergamy, she could be attracted to a man on the 55th percentile, which would leave 5% of men unattached, which is probably a reasonable number.

But when this 50th percentile woman is only attracted to 80th percentile men and higher, it creates a huge problem in the SMP and RMP. In an ideal world without casual sex, these women would not be able to secure any attention from these men, as 80th percentile man would be in a steady relationship with a 75th percentile woman. However, polygynous, high value men who love casual sex will still give her plenty of attention, making her feel more valuable than she actually is.

And, as you suggest, the 50th percentile woman can always choose to be single rather than be with that 55th percentile man who doesn’t attract her. She is free to make that choice, but because of the scientific development of birth control and IVF, she doesn’t miss out on the disadvantages that her choice would have normally resulted in, namely she can now have consequence free sex with men, and have her own children without a man. Overall, women can now be as picky as they want with few consequences, and it is average men who are the victims of this and who must now either ruthlessly compete with each other or find women in developing countries.

Aaren_Augustine · 2020-02-21T16:18:43+00:00

It also ignores the consideration that having no partner can be better than having a partner

Its a shit mindset. And I wonder if its why women can't get the man they want as well as not want the men they can get or currently have.

Imagine having a mindset that says you can get better and that's why you're not happy. That you deserve better. Except you aren't worthy of it, because if you did, you'd have it.

Can you not see how much of a loser mentality it is. That you can't be bothered with anyone but a cat that literally only needs the absolute bare minimum of you?

Like, I get all of what you posted, but it clogs up the drains with your conclusion. A giant slimy hair ball of reality that you'd rather be alone because you are so terrible at relationship that you'd frame it as "picky" when it's just a fundamental failure.

Zippo-Cat · 2020-02-21T16:34:12+00:00

So you agree with the basic tenets of AWALT and hypergamy?

goneaway2thewind · 2020-02-21T16:53:41+00:00

This is very very simple. Just because you decide not to act on a opportunity, it doesn't mean that it isn't an option. Women let nice guys beta orbit them to know they can cash in at anytime if they become desperate enough.

That was actually one of my first issues dating when I was young. I'd be into girls and they'd be nice but play hard to get or friendzone until they realized I didn't actually need them and I had options. Or they break up with their boyfriend and want to get over him. Then they all came flooding back in.

Just because you dont always immediately exercise your opportunity, it doesn't mean that they're non-options. Women here need to stop conflating most men as incels.

armordog99 · 2020-02-21T18:28:05+00:00

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the difference between how many are available and how many are desirable.

Women are more selective in who they mate with either short term or long term. There’s a good biological reason for this, women bear the brunt of procreation. Or, as the old saying goes, “Sperm is cheap and eggs are expensive.”

It doesn’t matter that we now have birth control and other means of reducing the chances to get pregnant but it took millions of years for the programming of our brains and it’s not going to change over the short time span of the existence of effective birth control.

The problem these incel and other men that whine about this have(and I am a male) is that they think their being singled out by women. Their not. Their is a whole lot of men that women dont find attractive. They also feel like they deserve to have a 10 when they are a 3. The world doesn’t work that way.

The trick as a man is to improve your mate value as best you can.(and men have it easier than women here because they can improve their mate value by improving their wealth). And find someone you can love that is close to your mate value.

I will say this there were several women in high school that friend zoned me or didn’t see me as a love interest who are now divorced or in crappy marriages while I am happily married for over 20 years and am in the upper middle class bracket. Sometimes living well is it’s best revenge.

Title	Women's options and being picky.
Author	Dora_Bowl
Upvotes	11
Comments	322
Date	February 21, 2020 3:32 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/f7cq9g/womens_options_and_being_picky/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/womens-options-and-being-picky.338279 https://theredarchive.com/post/338279

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