The girlboss vs gold digger dichotomy and why it harms women

Zabadoodude · 2024-07-24T19:35:35+00:00

people don't realize a lot of women genuinely enjoy their jobs

All the women I know have jobs. None of them genuinely enjoy them. Maybe in comparison to other job's they had before, but not many people would still go to work if they could be paid just as much not working.

The issue with the whole argument that men don't care about a woman's job is that 95% of men can't afford to have their wife not work and not live in near poverty. Men aren't less attracted to women that earn very little, but the practical financial reality of living with her will give most men pause.

leosandlattes · 2024-07-24T18:26:44+00:00

What defines a "girlboss" or a "gold digger" is often dependent on the man's own income class and economic status. And his perception of women who want careers and to work is also dependent on this factor. There's a really great post from the RedPillWomen subreddit that explains theory behind how a women's education and career affects her RMV among different income classes in men, and why the "I hate women who work" attitude is over-represented on Reddit. Especially on pill spaces. Here are some good excerpts:

Lower-income men generally have pretty low cost-of-living (may not expect to send children to private 4 year colleges, for instance) and no ability to consistently outsource household tasks. In my opinion that generally means that a practical wife choice is a woman with a strong work ethic, great household management skills, who isn't spoiled and who can ensure their family has lots of fun on a budget. As extremely bad outcomes (drug addiction, children out of wedlock, etc.) are a great risk for this economic bracket, it's especially important to find a woman who will be hands-on, strong mother - super high-quality childcare, private schools, etc. may not be an option. Some men in this bracket, for instance, may specifically look for a woman who is open to homeschooling to ensure their kids have a good outcome.

Upper-middle income "creative class" types (think consultants, analysts, guys in tech and media, etc., generally coastal or big city locations). This is where expectations of your career, education and earning potential really ratchet up. I find guys in this bracket either like women with extremely "interesting" careers with high social value in their social group (i.e. artists, inner-city school teacher, non-profit jobs), or women who have straightforwardly high-earning potential (banker, etc.). These guys are going to expect you have the right "taste" for their bracket and compatible ambitions and life plans -- I find this is a socio-economic group that reeeeeally wants to advance.

Overall, this reinforces the idea that men and women assortatively mate, and that their perception of what kind of woman YOU are comes from his own background. And it's important to remember that a large portion of Reddit (and the overall population) are young low-to-middle income men, and thus a lot of their preferences tend to dominate the "what men want" discussions.

boom-wham-slam · 2024-07-24T18:23:04+00:00

What you're missing is there are two types of men. One prefer one. One prefer the other.

The issue is that people often want to be the person the person they likely want despises.

Ie most "girlboss" types want a traditional man. Issue is traditional men want SAHW types. More broke kind of men usually want a working women but working women usually want a man who out earns them. Other types of men do as well but broke men looooooveeeeee a working woman and are highly over represented in the ones that like working women.

Ie many SAHW types, fall for men who want a career woman and so they shit on them as useless and lazy. But there are lots of SAHW types who are super anti traditional and then wonder why they can't find a man because it's usually more traditional minded men into this.

It's best to be intentional in these choices and things match up pretty well.

_CuntfinderGeneral · 2024-07-24T19:30:37+00:00

I honestly think this is kind of a social media-created issue. I highly doubt you'll meet too many people that incensed that a woman chooses a career over kids in person, but all the crazies come out on the internet and hang out in concentrated areas. Most men I've known would not do that and many don't even want kids to begin with, let alone force a woman to take care of them. And every woman I've seriously dated has had something of a career and it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Not saying these types aren't out there but I think you'll find most men way more reasonable than that when you start going on dates. At least I hope so.

AcephalicDude · 2024-07-24T19:01:42+00:00

I think what tends to blow people's minds is the idea that people might have diametrically opposed values and priorities, and those values and priorities can work equally well for the people that act on them. I think finding happiness is all about understanding yourself, defining your values, and surrounding yourself with people that share those values and priorities and will help you uphold/achieve them. A lot of the drama people experience comes from being confused about what they actually want, and associating with people that also either don't know what they actually want or want something completely different.

Downtown_Cat_1173 · 2024-07-24T18:12:02+00:00

Men like to tell women that no matter what choice they make, it’s the wrong choice. The goal is to keep women insecure. Instead women are walking away from relationships. 1 in 6 women are voluntarily celibate.

attendquoi · 2024-07-24T18:29:21+00:00

I am unapologetically girlboss, but I've never cared about being wife material (still got married though) so whether men find my job, grad degree, and publications attractive is irrelevant.

Regarding SAHMs, the only criticism I give them is if they aren't maintaining some level of financial independence. My grandma was SAHM and got a flat allowance from her husband to do with as she pleased. She always kept some in savings in case he left her.

Particular_Soft_6006 · 2024-07-24T17:57:10+00:00

For one just because you are accomplished in something doesn't mean you deserve a partner and its not unjust if they never get one. The view constantly shits on men so don't expect to get much sympathy or support from men concerning them.

purplepillparadox · 2024-07-24T20:34:54+00:00

I am a 30 year old man making 300k a year and I feel qualified to comment on this as a man who has dated women both types of women.

The Girl Boss

I liked the girl boss, because as a high achieving person, we were aligned on things like setting goals, working towards them, and celebrating success. However, she would randomly be competitive or combative with me.

Of all the women I know, she was the most likely person to paint all men as misogynistic. She would occasionally attribute career failure or lack of success to sexist discrimination. At work, I'm an advocate for women and have helped more women than men get career opportunities. So I don't understand in that relationship, how I was the one being blamed for the failings of all men.

The relationship itself wasn't even 50/50 really. I would be glad to share my success with someone who I really liked. Instead of being appreciative, she would want to pay 50/50 to show me that "she could pay as well, so hah, I don't owe you anything!" I don't really understand that. I donate money. I like helping others for the sake of helping others. I don't expect a quid pro quo and I never implied that. I don't understand why she wasn't just grateful, pleasant, and happy.

She would also bring up how unfair it was that women were biologically forced to become pregnant and raise kids. She would look at me after saying that, like it was my fault. It's like she hated men and wanted to beat them at their own game, but I was never competing against her.

She was also always weirdly jealous. I remember one time I was sitting at a bar with her and some new people we had met. We happened to be sitting on opposite sides and I was basically minding my own business. The guy that I was sitting across from me started asking me some questions and he got really interested and excited about what I was saying. It was something about whether it was better to treat everyone equally or to qualify their treatment based on their relationship to you, "mother, brother, etc". I was basically just chilling and chit chatting. I looked over at my girlfriend to see how she was doing, and she said, "we(the other people at the table) are having an interesting conversation too!" and then proceeded to ignore me. What the fuck? She was competing with me on who would have a better conversation? At a bar? Where people relax to hang out with friends?

We broke up in a not great way. She is married now and definitely competes with her husband. She still tries to talk with me and still tries to compete with me. It's so so weird. I like making money, I like success, I compete with the world not with any individual. I don't know what she was thinking. She is a large part of the reason I don't like feminists, because she was never happy or grateful for what she had in life. She likely still isn't. I doubt she will have kids. I doubt she will find happiness.

The "gold digger"

If I marry someone that makes 100k/year and I make 300k/year. They are basically getting paid 100k/year to be in a relationship with me. Plus, if they quit, they effectively get 50k/year bonus. If I ask them to be supportive, nurturing, or anything, I don't know if they are doing it because they want to, or because I am effectively paying them to. If we have a disagreement, could she be honest or would she just hold it in, because she cant afford to break up. If we break up, is she going to be able to get a job again? Unequal income adds a lot of outside pressure to the relationship.

Also, it becomes really easy to quantify the amount of work a SAHW would do. I live alone right now and meal prep, clean, workout, etc. However, I could easily hire a cleaning service and eat out everyday, which doesn't cost anywhere near 150k/year. I could even adopt and hire a full time nanny for when I'm at work.

Final thoughts?

I have never met a woman who was grateful, fun, charitable who made as much as me.
I don't think its possible to have an ethical relationship with someone who makes 3 times less than you.

Ideally, I'd meet someone that made as much as me and we share responsibilities such that we both succeed more with each other than without.

If I were gay, life would be a lot easier.

Electric_Death_1349 · 2024-07-24T18:03:23+00:00

The claim that “most modern feminists are pretty anti capitalism” evaporates as soon as there is a threat to capitalism - e.g. when Sanders had the audacity to challenge Hilary’s coronation, a the most vitriolic backlash came from feminists (“IT’S HER TURN!!!”).

The same thing happened in my country when a veteran left-winger unexpectedly became leader of the opposition; the loudest members of the Greek chorus of opposition came from self-professed feminists who like to proclaim that they are “a bit of a lefty” and “hate the Tories” until there was an actual left-wing challenge to the ruling party, at which point they decided that they quite liked their elevated place in the class hierarchy.

Feminism is the preserve of the (predominantly) white liberal girlboss - a silly, childish, asinine pseudo-ideology that exists to facilitate the personal advancement of a minor of entitled narcissists over the majority.

Bassist57 · 2024-07-24T18:01:11+00:00

I'd love to be a househusband for a girlboss. Unfortunately, the vast vast majority of women dont want to date/marry a guy who makes less than them.

sprckets21 · 2024-07-24T18:48:52+00:00

Girlbosses who own businesses and gold diggers are barely even real, it’s like saying all guys are players and fbois. It’s all made up gender internet trope.

wtknight · 2024-07-24T20:45:35+00:00

Men like feminine women. Both actively trying to be a career women and actively trying to exploit a man and spend his money get perceived as overly aggressive and masculine. Men tend to like either passivity, or passive aggressiveness. They are usually the ones who like to at least feel like they are in power, though.

Therefore, what you think is a dichotomy isn’t really a true dichotomy.

Baezil · 2024-07-24T20:53:08+00:00

There's a really simple answer here for a lot of what you wrote: There's always going to be some people who have a problem with what you're doing and how you're doing it. There's also always going to be a smaller amount of people who will criticize you no matter what you do.

That's it.

The issue with very accomplished women, in my mind, is one of respect. Men seem to have an easier time respecting women with less education/career accomplishment. It's not nearly as big a factor in their sum total of attraction for the other person as it is for women.

So when the more you achieve means the fewer men you respect and would date, and those achievements are not what is valued much by men... you kind of isolate yourself from multiple angles.

wideHippedWeightLift · 2024-07-25T01:55:35+00:00

The men complaining about "girlbosses" are either:

1) complaining about certain behaviors (being really arrogant and rude) that have nothing to do with whether a woman is successful, they just make fun of how a lot of these woman use their "girlboss" status as an excuse for being an asshole

or

2) a certain group of traditionalists trying to make all women with careers look bad by associating them with these traits

Group 2 might be very loud in certain online spaces, but they absolutely do not make up the majority of men, or even the majority of men who want women who follow traditional gender roles.

YveisGrey · 2024-07-25T00:15:32+00:00

Women can’t do anything right that’s the answer

Cunning_Linguists_ · 2024-07-24T22:49:09+00:00

The "girlbosses" still want a man who makes as much or more money than them. So all women are gold-diggers on some level. There is no dichotomy here.

AutoModerator · 2024-07-24T17:45:33+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

AutoModerator · 2024-07-24T17:45:33+00:00

Hi OP,

You've chosen to identify your thread as a Debate. As such you are expected to actively engage in your own thread with a mind open to being changed. PPD has guidelines for what that involves.

OPs author must genuinely hold the position and you must be open to having your view challenged.

An unwillingness to debate in good faith may be inferred from one or several of the following:

Ignoring the main point of a comment, especially to point out some minor inconsistency;

Refusing to make concessions that an alternate view has merit;

Focusing only on the weaker arguments;

Only having discussions with users who agree with your position.

Failure to keep to this higher standard (we only apply to Debate OPs) may result in deletion of the whole thread.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

kvakerok_v2 · 2024-07-24T22:01:02+00:00

I mentioned on this sub once how I would not mind being a stepmom to someone else's children

You are doing Lord's work and we need more people like you. Naysayers can go pound sand.

I've seen a lot of people shame women for not breastfeeding, for not being sexy enough for their husband after having to deal with kids all day, etc.

Other women do that more than anyone else. My ex struggled with latching for ~8 months after birth and I almost exclusively bottle fed our son for the first 3 months, especially in the nights as she couldn't function on little sleep and struggled to bottle feed him (because she would fall apart emotionally after failing to latch). I'll be honest, I didn't care if she breastfed him or not, but she was literally going crazy over it. We had to go through weaning him off the bottle almost completely before he started latching consistently and by then she came up with new things to go psycho over.

HappyCat79 · 2024-07-24T23:23:22+00:00

Just be yourself! Don’t even try to be what you believe men want because a person can only mask for so long. If you be yourself and be true to who you are then whomever you end up meeting will either like you for you, or fuck ‘em.

I am pretty sure that I’m on the spectrum. I was diagnosed with ADHD, but I have 5 kids and 4 of them are autistic. My ex is autistic, and my partner is autistic. My best friend is autistic, my sister, and my nieces and nephews are all autistic. My mom and dad are also autistic, so yeah…

It took me MANY years to stop feeling socially anxious and to embrace my weirdness. People either like me or fuck ‘em. I just had that conversation with my autistic 17 year old daughter. She gets really anxious because her co-workers are more cold with her, but they are warm and embracing of one another. I told her that if they treat her that way then fuck ‘em. Not worth her energy. She loved that advice and said “Yeah, fuck ‘em. I know I’m going to be successful someday!”

Gold_Supermarket1956 · 2024-07-25T05:01:22+00:00

Here's the problem alot of stay at home mom's expect the husband to pick up the slack when they are home but shouldn't have to your job is homemaking and raising kids... if you're a stay at home mom that man shouldn't have to do shit but mow the lawn... and a lot of women oppose this

SaBahRub · 2024-07-24T18:23:49+00:00

Men don’t care about what women want past getting into their pants. And that’s their right, especially since we have the right to reject or divorce them

It’s also their right to deliberately misidentify golddiggers are to make themselves feel better in the short term. They’re the ones who aren’t going to get an economic dependent in the end

Besides, dedicated housewives don’t care, they will keep prioritizing their own desires too

macdaddy0800 · 2024-07-25T03:36:34+00:00

Scratch deeper.

It's the interaction between hypergamy and fertility/nurturing that are very feminine traits.

Outrageous hypergamy and declining fertility and inability to nurture due to being time poor/over worked is going to give men the "ick".

Title	The girlboss vs gold digger dichotomy and why it harms women
Author	Tight_Lawfulness3206
Upvotes	23
Comments	98
Date	July 24, 2024 5:45 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1eb7oor/the_girlboss_vs_gold_digger_dichotomy_and_why_it/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-girlboss-vs-gold-digger-dichotomy-and-why-it.1525211 https://theredarchive.com/post/1525211

Comments