The infamous SMV graph

_Tumbleweed- · 2019-04-30T12:36:39+00:00

I’m 24 but I think it just means that those are the ages when individual men and women have the most people of the opposite gender sexually interested in them.

Male peak is nothing like female peak though.

When a woman is 23, every man from 14 to 60 finds her attractive and would fuck her if there were no other consequences.

When a man is 36, many 25 to 40 year old women will be interested, but he will receive nowhere near the level of interest that a 23 year old woman will.

Men are born post-wall. They have to work hard to have a peak of any kind.

concacanca · 2019-04-30T12:40:02+00:00

Im 33.

I'd say its an incomplete look at things and probably a little too revenge fantasy-ish to be completely trusted.

I do think its accurate that men generally do increase their SMV out of their 20s. A mixture of status and confidence is accrued by most men which can definitely ramp up their attractiveness and allow them to execute that most maligned BP aphorism: 'just be yourself'.

Physically a lot depends. A young man tends to have a faster metabolism making it easier for him to stay thin but also commonly hasnt finished growing out yet. I think I was 23 by the time my shoulders had noticeably stopped getting broader. Young men also have that whole fresh faced thing present in both sexes which disappears over time in older men. Alongside those factors, older men often find themselves with more means and time to nail their grooming, dress and physical conditioning. Today I'm in better outward shape than I was when I was a college athlete. This requires a shit ton of effort though and isnt a given. I feel like that graph assumes a high level of effort.

Women have the same things present but with youth far more important to men and status somewhat less of a factor. I dont think its accurate to say that their SMV plunges off a cliff after their mid 20s honestly. They too can put in time, effort and money to looking their best well into their 30s. The only real disadvantages that women have in the SMV front are a male bias towards youth, meaning that they will almost immediately be faced with competition from younger and prettier women, and childbirth. One assumes that the latter isnt that much of a factor but the levels of single motherhood and divorce rate suggests that mothers are still part of the SMP. The 'baby rabies' that women get in their late 20s and early 30s are also a bit of an SMV knock IMO.

I think the crossover point is pretty accurate but that crossover really comes relative to your own age cohort. Old men arent suddenly attractive to young women in the main. For those men relying on a late bloomer surge - they might be out of luck as they find their increased options to be women whose looks are decaying and who desperately want to start a family.

SmurfESmurferson · 2019-04-30T15:33:22+00:00

I'm 38

The problem with using online dating apps is that they're really only a good judge of one aspect of attraction - physical. So, sure, men are going to be most attracted to pictures of women in their early to mid-20s. That's all those graphs show

But as you get older, you'll start to see men lose interest in much younger women due to personality and age differences. Sure, they'll take a pretty young thing on a date, they'll happily have sex with her, but many of them don't want to be bothered with the immaturity and drama that is typical of someone's 20s. I have a number of guy friends who have taken much younger women on a couple dates, and then broke it off. When asked why, the reason was always "she was so hot until she opened her mouth"

Layered on top of that is that certain personality types remain wildly attractive, even as people age. That 42 year old woman who has kept herself fit and fashionable? If she has that personality type that just attracts people, has them buzz around her, she's not going to really ever truly hit the wall, at least the way TRP describes it. She'll remain in demand with high value men either older than her, or right around her own age

shadowkat · 2019-04-30T12:28:41+00:00

Scientifically, SMV is very much based on the community you're assessing SMV in - it's a comparison thing and based on the local "market". To apply such broad blanket statements removes that nuance. It's comprised of what people in said market are attracted to, how many people exhibited those things that they're attracted to, and how well they exhibit those things in comparison to others.

It also depends on the medium - knowing how to take a good selfie increases your SMV on tinder, having an engaging personality that "lights up a room" increases your SMV in person.

I'd also argue SMV doesn't peak when you're 23, it probably peaks when you look ~ 23, which for some people is when they're 43, and for some people when they're 18.

It's literally all relative.

Truedemocracy4 · 2019-04-30T16:24:07+00:00

Dude here in that age range. There are a lot of factors in play that make it accurate-ish, some that both pill colors can agree on

One is that men typically date younger, and women date older. So as a man ages his dating pool of prospects will naturally increase. However this isn’t indefinite as you will reach an age where most desirable women are paired off and you are too old to date young. Yes a 40 year old can date a 25 year old BUT generally that girl will have issues of some kind and isn’t “high quality”

Another factor is resources. Yes women value looks, but women do at the very least care more about a mans money than vice versa. On average this also increases with age

Another factor both can agree on is the biological clock and societal pressure for both genders is different. No one loves aging, but a woman wanting to have kids and a man wanting to have kids aren’t acting on the same timeline. So women around 30 are more willing to be more open minded about guys than they were at say 22

This all being said I think the graph is best interpreted as relevant value to each genders personal experience in life. A 33 year old woman will still easily find sex if she wants it, much easier than a man could. But commitment may be harder, and relative to her SMV at an earlier age her dating power will be lower. Because of the increase in options a man will likely be better off as he ages than he was younger.

Of course this isn’t true for all men. Men that don’t take care of themselves, or genetically bald earlier, or don’t have a career lined up by 30 will be worse off than at a younger age. A woman that takes care of herself can be 32 and still net a high value man.

Hope the above is a REASONABLE take that both sides can see partially eye to eye on.

sublimemongrel · 2019-04-30T12:32:27+00:00

If the question is related to will women “at their peak” (according to this graph) date men “at their peak” (according to the same graph), no most young 20 something women don’t date men that much older. Most young people are still dating people their own age.

However, some will argue the graph just means a man’s SMV rises relative to women’s, ie he wil have more of the “power” when he gets into his 30s. I don’t necessarily disagree with that but you still have to take into account that many young women will already be paired up by the time he’s that age so he will have less of a pool to choose from if he’s going after the most attractive women according to TRP standards. However there are still probably plenty of women to choose from at that age I’m sure. I’m an early 30s woman - most men in my demographic were paired up years ago and are married. The single ones tend to get with single women who are still about their own age.

Nevidimka- · 2019-04-30T14:29:14+00:00

A big nuance to this story is that when a man reaches that peak, he is mostly popular with women around his own age. But which women do you want to date? If you're a man and you want to determine your personal peak, here's a more interesting graph.

Per example, if you'd want to date a girl between 18 and 21, you'd best be 18-28 yourself, not 36.

MGTOWKapow2 · 2019-04-30T12:38:41+00:00

If by SMW you mean being barraged by women with children and STDs who've made bad decisions and want a bailout, that's accurate.

Nothing like seeing women become insanely mercenary. "I want a baby within six months and to quit my job in a year. How many bedrooms does your house have and how good is your credit? Can I see at least three years' worth of W2s to verify your income? By the way, little Jacob and Madison come first, you come last."

CamoWoobie100 · 2019-04-30T13:52:30+00:00

The majority of women, of any age, have a higher SMV than the majority of men of any age.

When it comes to RMV, though, it's going to be a lot easier for the average man at 30 who has put in effort in advancing his appearence and gathering of resources, than it was for him previously. Hes not going to have his pick of the litter, but it shouldnt be too hard for him to lock down an average girl a few years younger for an LTR.

Though, a guy doesnt need to have a super high SMV to still have fun. Even a fraction of the female SMV is enough. And, if you dont care about morality, like me, you can use your RMV to entice women into sex and leave them hanging.

ITooHaveThumbs · 2019-04-30T17:59:33+00:00

I'm a 36 m. I did well in my early 20's in college. Better in my late 20's. But by far my best years we 30-35. Hands down. I attribute this to being more mature. More confident and smooth around women. And of course better dressed and better career. It also helps that I've worked out steadily for those 15 years and watched my diet, and so packed on about 25 lbs of muscle and very little fat.

Gravel_Roads · 2019-04-30T12:27:26+00:00

It seems a lot of the time, women find men more attractive when they're mature and no longer require a mommy-figure to hold their hands, while men seem to find women most attractive before they mature, when inexperience makes them more inclined to child-like submissiveness and still need a daddy-figure to hold their hand.

It's all perception and what dating pool you're dipping into. Markers of health, mental sharpness and youth are universally attractive, but become more precious and rare with time. If you're healthy and act like you still have a sense of adventure and enjoy new experiences, you'll be neck and head above other 40 year olds. But if you're trying to compete with 25 year olds at 40, you better have a lot of life experience to fall back on, because what puts you ahead of other 40 year olds is baseline at 25, man or woman.

S3LF-IMPROV3M3NT · 2019-04-30T21:31:36+00:00

I'm under 30 and I don't believe a man's SMV peak is 36. It just seems like wishful thinking... I don't know many (or any really) 18-22 year old girls that date 36 year old men. And age fucks you up... yes I know a man's SMV is not solely based on beauty but it's not just that. You won't be able to keep up partying with young girls, you'll wanna go to bed early and what not, you might have financial security but let's be honest it's more akin to being a sugar daddy than the girl actually feeling attracted to you. And a 22 year old man is just gonna be able to outfuck you and outmuscle you due to sheer Testosterone... after 25 your Test starts to drop dramatically and by 36 there's pretty much no competition. You might have more lifting experience but I know guys that have been lifting since 16 and get jacked at 19-22. Also, good luck not balding and shit.

And of course, idc what any male-hamsterer says, you WILL be socially shamed for not being married by 36 as a man, unless you're some mogul or rich executive or celebrity. And even then you do kinda get shamed for it, it's not as simple as the fantasy TRP peddles. I'm Red Pill for the most part, but this fantasy of peaking at 36 and spinning hot plates well into your 40s is a pipe dream and a really shitty bet to take.

I will throw in this caveat though, older men's saving grace is that young men are retarded and often don't know what to do with their youth. If you're 36 and been lifting since 16, you're gonna be better off than some skinnyfat soyboy who's 25. But what people don't realize is that young men aren't as stupid anymore... the internet wasn't there when previous generations were young men. And the Red Pill grows more and more popular everyday. Once young men know how to be men and realize they can't squander their youth, older men are no true competition except for beta bucks niches.

FlavFal · 2019-04-30T14:24:09+00:00

I believe the peak SMV for both women and men is early 20s. A 36yo man who's sought after because some women are desperate to start a family isn't the same as a young man who gets female attention because they wanna fuck him.

disposableboyfriend · 2019-04-30T12:47:52+00:00

There was a post about that by /u/-TheGreasyPole- titled What science has to say about changes in the SMP for women (what RP calls “The Wall”).

Wallstreet3 · 2019-04-30T13:09:30+00:00

Its fairly accurate. A lot more goes into what women considered attractive than what a man considers attractive I.e. the burden of performance is different for the two sexes.

It is much easier for a woman to be attractive in her 20s than a man be attractive in their 20s. But it is much easier for a man to be attractive in their 30s than it is for a woman (wrinkles and sagging tits do not lie).

And the expectations and priorities change with age. Young women want excitement. Young men want a dumping station. Older women want stability and shit. Older men want a woman that isn't constantly giving them shit.

The younger woman is less likely to give the older man shit from what I have experienced.

Factor in a man's increased earning potential with age. 600 bucks disposable monthly income pays a younger woman's rent!

bd31 · 2019-04-30T15:05:54+00:00

If one change oneself to accommodate some "SMV", there's too much care about what others think, and only invites an inauthentic relationship in the long term.

RedPill-BlackLotus · 2019-04-30T15:32:21+00:00

It only works like that for a man if he continues to improve and NOT LET himself go and get fat.

There should be a giant * beside that graph. A man cant play call of duty through is 30s and be desirable.

ratiuncula_abiecta · 2019-04-30T20:40:08+00:00

This is all personal experience, but I’m fucking terrible with women (average height and introversion being my big issues), and even still, from ages 34-37 I got pretty unambiguous interest from more girls than I had ever gotten before in my life.

Not like I was killing it, but it was like 3-4 girls (about 7 years younger than me) who showed interest during that time frame, versus roughly zero before...and these were girls who I found attractive to very attractive. So yeah, the graph is consistent with my experience.

Unfortunately I’m married so this didn’t amount to shit, but that’s irrelevant to your question.

Jokengonzo · 2019-04-30T22:16:44+00:00

The wall no longer exists for many women nor it’s been moved a lot I’ll tell you something lots of 30 year old women in my work and Dios mio they look good asf

ilptrandom · 2019-05-01T05:21:20+00:00

There's a rather large number of men who start off low value and it is downhill all the way from there. We know this. There's a rather large number of women who seem to get exactly what they went when they want it their entire lives. We know these people in real life in some quantity. In fact if you look at people's actual recounting of their lives there's rather a lot of people whose experiences don't reflect that graph of what some TRP thought happens.

There is no doubt that there is a form of sexiness that is present in young people only because of their physical youth, and that form of sexiness tends to be valued by men a bit more than it is valued by women. It is reasonable to surmise that the difference amounts to women trading about a three year upwards age difference in their man for being able to pick a man who is higher up the range in other attributes, But men who allow that "graph" to convince them their bald spot and crows feet will in their own right and without massive efforts to increase their RMV make them sexier and at 40 will be a fit match for a 22 year old woman are in for a very sad surprise. Life has a downhill slope to it. That is the trend. Maybe there's a sudden upward or downward bump here and the location of those bumps relate to gender and can be used a little. A sudden uptick in demand for women when college starts, as young men start to find the freedom and courage to make approaches. A sudden uptick in the demand for men around age 28 as women start to want to get children. A sudden uptick in the interest of women for men when they realize they haven't enough retirement savings. A sudden uptick in the interest of men for women at the age when men realize they are facing the infirmity of old age alone. Those are just short term effects. A sudden downwards force in the interest of women for men when menopause takes away the estrogen that helped women tolerate men better and more closely than men tolerate men. But the overall trend is down. For everyone. Always down. Draw a line between here and death at any point in adult life, that line goes down.

So when thinking of "what's happening to mu value, what's happening to her value" remember that. It will help you keep an appropriate perspective.

kandyapplez · 2019-04-30T14:07:44+00:00

its a rmv change based on 30something men being better betas for women who want to pump out some kids and nothing more. at no point does male "smv" eclipse womens. a 50 year old woman could have a hot 30 year old guy delivered to her doorstep within an hour

Electra_Cute · 2019-04-30T12:32:02+00:00

would like hear about more empirical data

Anecdotes are not "empirical data" by the way. Asking people who are over 30 about their personal experiences on this case tells you almost nothing valuable.

Zippo-Cat · 2019-04-30T12:48:20+00:00

The graph is not based on any data/statistics that I know of. It's basically someone's opinion in a graph form.

The best I can get you is this graph from OKCupid (Hilariously, this particular instance of it is taken from an article called "Are you a girl over 22? Then don't even bother with online dating". How about that!)

Even The Wall is based far more on "gut feeling" than actual data. Although it's interesting to know that most cultures have some a concept of it - from Japan's "Christmas Cakes" to France's "Catherinettes".

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nemma88 · 2019-04-30T16:50:17+00:00

The infamous graph is hyperbolic. Neither women nor men are ever that much higher or lower than each other in potential, but potential shifts a bit over time.

I'd also argue men can never reach the same peak as a woman, in SMV. Just because supply and demand.

Izzyk22 · 2019-04-30T17:16:00+00:00

It's not SMV. Only attractive men have SMV. Unattractive men just have to betabux at age 36.

blackedoutfast · 2019-04-30T18:26:26+00:00

yes it is generally accurate but with two caveats.

male SMV doesn't automatically be increase just because a guy gets older. it assumes the dude has his shit together. if you turn into a fat loser who lives in a van down by the river, your SMV isn't going to go up when you turn 35.
the shape of the SMV curves over time are pretty accurate, but the actual SMV value is going to vary from one person to the next. if you compare some hideous loser man to a very hot woman, even when he hits his lifetime peak at 35 or whatever, he still may have significantly lower SMV than her, even though she is post-wall.

DaphneDK42 · 2019-05-01T01:28:22+00:00

Its irrelevant from an actionable point of view. You are best off in life by finding a girl to marry when you're in your mid 20s (and she's in the late teens/early 20s). Postponing it until you're mid 30s would be a very bad advice.

celincelin · 2019-05-01T11:46:55+00:00

36 is the RMV peak.

escapethesolarsystem · 2019-05-03T01:41:22+00:00

I think women's wall is farther along - around 35-40 (depending on the woman) - basically when she's not able to have healthy children anymore. 23 seems to be about a good number for the peak. Also, I think the men's SMV peak can be further too (well into their 40's).

As for "empirical data" - it's kind of like asking for "empirical data" to prove the sky is blue. Sure, somebody can probably find it somewhere, but do you really need it? Society has understood this for millennia, it's only now that (thanks to feminism) that people don't acknowledge reality anymore.

grand_tiremaster · 2019-05-04T06:07:06+00:00

It really depends on the individual-- at 30 do they still care about their appearance?

I have friends who work in law enforcement, they're all in their 40's (a couple of them almost 50 yrs old) and they all have gorgeous wives. Their wives take care of themselves. They do their makeup, their hair, they workout and eat healthy. These women, despite being older, are definitely noticed for their beauty. I compliment them every time I see them! As do others. So I mean, some women are still rocking it well into the middle aged range.

The problem is most women stop caring about their appearance after having kids, or just because of the body positivity movement. Lack of discipline as well. I am in my early twenties and I am often confused for being underaged- which I take as a compliment. But I am not overweight and I have decent looking skin. I see people at school who are also in their early twenties but are overweight. Their excuse? "Beauty is at any size" blah blah whatever mantra is being pumped out these days in television and marketing.

It all boils down to how an individual views things. Do they think "yeah I love myself, so I am not going to change a thing. My beta bf loves me too, so nope I do not need to change myself." or do they think "yeah I love myself, so I will watch what I put into my body and take on a healthier lifestyle. There is always room for improvement!". Honestly, people are just lazy. Their SMV reduces if they do not care about themselves.

misiepatysie · 2019-04-30T12:27:16+00:00

I am over 30, everybody thinks I am 23 at most. I look better then ever before. The wall is just another Terper BS invetned to make lame men feel better that they do not get the women they want.

AellaGirl · 2019-04-30T17:20:32+00:00

Okcupid has some data on this: https://theblog.okcupid.com/the-case-for-an-older-woman-99d8cabacdf5 It concludes that statistically speaking, a woman's desirability peaks at the age of 21.

Title	The infamous SMV graph
Author	PsychedelicDentist
Upvotes	24
Comments	167
Date	April 30, 2019 12:17 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/bj2lz7/the_infamous_smv_graph/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-infamous-smv-graph.255981 https://theredarchive.com/post/255981

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