Blue Pillers, what is it you actually believe, and how does is contradict trp?

ijustwannabeagoat · 2021-08-01T11:16:29+00:00

Several good points have already been made, but I will add that:

I don’t want the kind of woman that would be impressed by TRP tactics. Unfortunately, these tend to be women who’ve already been burned and then ‘matured’ or would gladly branch swing if a better opportunity appeared. TRP says all women are like this, but I believe that there are women who are introspective and intelligent enough to not spend their lives chasing the bad boy and making the same mistakes over and over again talking about the bar is so low. Basically I hope to find a more logical woman.

I choose to believe that a romantic relationship based on equal respect and attraction is possibly without having to put on a front. I don’t want to be with a women who’s being extra feminine to manipulate me and and where I have to be extra masculine to maintain her. That unspoken agreement seems cringy and I ultimately want to connect with my partner on a deeper level. The dream is to be able to be vulnerable in front of her without being afraid of her losing respect or planning to branch swing. I’ve found no evidence that I could achieve this dream in real life, but I’ll keep looking.

I think it’s an unresolved insecurity issue I have that makes me this way. Like if I use TRP to be attractive to a woman and only show her the side of me I know she wants to see. I basically lose respect for her if she’s impressed by frame or whatever. I want someone to like me for me you know. I don’t want the relationship to feel like some sort of battle or conquest for which I need to use a strategy. Feel free to CMV.

Basically, TRPs opened my eyes to the truth and ruined any chance of being happy in a relationship at the same time.

I’m neither red-pilled nor blue-pilled btw.

poppy_blu · 2021-08-01T13:47:24+00:00

OP, what do you consider “blue pill?” Hard to answer this question when the term gets used so broadly.

I’ve been saying for years that most of RP is common knowledge packaged in a man edgy way to appeal to clueless men. So does that make me red pill?

I also believe in love, romance and that people can rise above their biology and all the bullshit and that people who say you can’t are simply excusing their own weak character. Does that make me blue pill?

I also acknowledge that the above is a lot easier to believe in for people who were born with the traits that give them advantages in the SMP/RMP. Does that make me black pill?

Maybe I’m purple. Idealism tempered by optimism. Pragmatic yet hopeful.

Grounded in the belief that there’s always some aspect of the game we can control even if we can’t control the outcome. My own thoughts are a lot of people end up in places like PPD because they don’t want to accept this. They want to chose to give up and make it someone else’s fault.

I’d use myself as an example of how your outlook and behaviors are more important than the cards you were dealt but it would get removed for “race baiting.”

superlurkage · 2021-08-01T14:11:11+00:00

All women are not like that. The women your “strategy” works on are like that

Everyone settles, and it is no big deal, nor is it an injustice

Dating advice is mostly correct — 90% of it is be attractive, don’t be unattractive —- it’s just that women will never want to fuck as much as men

Finally, “blue pill” is just the mainstream beliefs that red pill disagrees with, not a concerted philosophy meant to “get” you.

NarniaFox · 2021-08-01T11:35:27+00:00

TRP consists from cherry picked evidences, confirmation bias and personal experience. What am I supposed to believe here in?

First of all, there are enough studies that don't support TRP claims. If you want to see some, here's one of my comments with studies about dark triad attractions. Secondly, red pillers are quick to make huge jumps from study results or statistics towards their ideology. 70% of women file in for divorce magically equates to 70% of marriages fail because of AWALT. Thirdly, my personal experience isn't in line with TRP claims in any way.

There's no manifesto of blue pill, as pretty much everyone who don't agree with TRP and considered to be blue pillers. Whether they're traditionalists, feminists, egalitarianists etc. it doesn't matter, they're all blue pilled.

Personally I believe that there's a physical part of attraction - appearance, smell and voice and a mental one - whether you find someone competent, interested and pleasant to be around etc. Some are affected more by physical components, others by mental ones. Men who have dating issues often have problems in both of them. Although struggling men that I used to know were okay appearance-wise, but had some mental health and/or communication issues.

People generally date partners with similar financial and education level, background, experience and n-counts etc. Not all men/women are cut out for holding life-long LTRs/marriage, so it makes sense that marriages rates are on decline.

TRP has useful, common sense advice like get your shit together, lift, have your own plans and goals, don't be needy etc. I'm not from the US, so I'm not exactly sure why men act as if they were deprived from knowing the importance of these things. I don't agree with AWALT though, as I think TRPers attract and date a certain category of women that fall for their hot and cold game. They vet for women who are into this stuff and these women reinforce their beliefs that these techniques work. I totally disagree with MRP and its beliefs - treat your wife as the oldest teen in the house, dread etc.

HumanNumber348 · 2021-08-01T15:02:25+00:00

The whole ideology is one big motte-and-bailey fallacy. One moment, they present “looks matters” as this revolutionary idea that mainstream society wants to hide from you, and the next, they try to convince you that femoids are soulless creatures incapable of feeling love. I disagree with the Bailey, not the Motte.

AntifaSuperSwoledier · 2021-08-01T13:56:57+00:00

I base my beliefs on research and data. The scientific method. This means RP arguments like "it's common sense bro just look around you" or "all women ride the cock carousel but they'll never tell the truth so I can't prove it" will never hit home.

Occasionally RP lines up with facts like "looks matter." Rarely did RP discover these facts and usually they are already a part of mainstream "blue pill" dating culture.

Given that, it's hard to see what RP has to offer. The unique parts tend to be unfounded ideology and the practical dating advice (lift, be confident) is already mainstream advice.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2021-08-01T10:45:19+00:00

I don't consider myself BP but here are the things that RP gets wrong:

-- AWALT. Women are humans. Women are evil. Women are good. Women are neutral. Women are selfish and selfless. Women are flawed but generally want to be upstanding citizens

-- no monogamy and spin plates. This will lead to rank unhappiness in men longterm. Spinning plates is fun for a bit. Then it's boring. Then it's unsatisfying. Then it leads to self loathing.

-- "Alpha beta" has been disproven by science. What RP calls alphaness is just being a normal attractive human!? And true attractiveness is a mix between so called alpha and beta traits.

-- attraction techniques. I don't quite understand how RPs can expect a rando to sleep with them from the bus or gym or whatever. Most of my hookups occurred with alcohol present at bars and parties.

-- thinking women are useless aka smartest teenager etc. How can you think this if you've ever been in grad school with smart capable women? They not only contribute to their families, but to society as well.

-- the wall. Yes, most women tank in attractiveness after 30, no this isn't genetic. This is women becoming complacent just like men do. As a single 24 year old I'd date a slim fit 35 year old in a heartbeat before an obese 21 year old. Watching the societal norm of getting fat and lazy and attributing it to some weird genetic proclivity is just a simple misattribution.

Reisiluu · 2021-08-01T10:40:52+00:00

That love is real and it's worth it to pursue it and build your life around maintaining it. TRP says oneitis is a weakness and advises men to get over it.

That being hurt by the opposite gender is not a sign that the opposite gender is like that. While there are gender differences, abuse is not a defining trait for either side. You need to pick better.

That having and raising kids with your wife (whom you treat well) would lead to more happiness and sexual satisfaction than the obsession with casual sex. Very, very few men can have sex with strangers as often as a cohabiting couple can have sex. Red pillers have either experienced all that and managed to fuck it up, or they are young guys who have never tried it and don't know what kind of loneliness is waiting for them. Their mom will die one day and then literally no one will care how their day is even if they bring it up at the pharmacy and the grocery store.

Mrs_Drgree · 2021-08-01T14:01:11+00:00

[permanently deleted]

jiimmyyy · 2021-08-01T13:05:08+00:00

It's actually quite simple - I haven't seen any red pill positions that come remotely close to being convincing. It's all just deliberately edgy, low-intelligence conjecture.

Fleischpeitsch · 2021-08-02T12:25:53+00:00

I believe that TRP was written by antisocial losers for antisocial losers. They just don't seem to understand woman all that much, even though they are convinced that they are the only experts, but I guess that's what happens if their main interactions with women are looking at them on instagram or reading about them on TRP.

They believe that communication is useless, that female friends are useless, that listening to women is useless, that women don't like nice men, that women only like dark triad assholes, that acting indifferent and cold works, etc which are all things I learned to be the exact opposite of what TRP claims.

In my opinion TRP is nothing more than a self-reinforcing cycle. They use a few shitty tricks to pick up women on the very bottom of the barrel, and then tell themselves that all women are just as bad as those.

It's like the Fox and the Grapes, but instead of the fox telling himself that he doesn't want any grapes the Fox has actually convinced himself that the rotten ones that fell to the ground are the only ones that exist. And whenever we Blue Pillers tell him that he should try to get the good ones the Fox gets angry, defensive and yells at us that we have no idea about grapes and accuses us of lying about the existence of fresh grapes.

AutoModerator · 2021-08-01T07:38:31+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

ads514438 · 2021-08-01T19:26:37+00:00

This is a very loaded question. I'm gonna try my best to answer this from a based point of view.

I've dived deep into TRP for some years. My feelings towards have changed over time. Many things addressing in TRP are essential for men (lift, personal development, holding frame, wealth attainment, keeping women accountable etc.) Whereas some of the ideas of TRP don't really appeal to me (spinning multiple "plates", that shit becomes unappealing fast).

One thing I DO NOT do is overvalue myself, which I see some RP guys are doing. I'm ranked high in the looks department (5'10, genetically gifted, lift weights, etc.). My finances and status, however need much more work, which my looks cannot hold a women's attention for a long term relationship, especially is she wants marriage and kids. I also have a 7 year old daughter.

I understand some women will find me attractive, or unattractive, it's all situational. One woman wouldn't dare look in my direction because I have a daughter, whereas the next woman would fall head over heels for me cause of how well I love and care for my child. One woman may hate the fact I have big muscles, whereas the next gets hot just by looking at me. Because of this, I don't take everything that's said in TRP as gospel. It's similar to people who take astrology and horoscopes too literally. The human experience is too unique and complex to just put a group of people in a box. Not every Leo will be assertive, for example.

The main thing I keep in the front of my mind is to chase wealth attainment, keep my mind and body sharp and to be the best father to my daughter as I can. I also know that because I have a daughter, there is an extremely high chance I'll become a grandfather, so I need to get my shit together as soon as I can. Because of this, I stopped dating to focus more on myself.

If I were to start dating again however, because of my exposure to RP content, I know how to choose my women better. I understand there are beliefs in place (AWALT for example), but this statistically impossible. I must be able to trust my ability to choose the right people to keep in my life, male or female. What I don't do is judge all women the same. I give them the opportunity to show me who they are, and I decide how to treat them based on what I see so a little shit testing is in order.

Add all this with a mindset that's set to walk away from a woman at a moment's notice if necessary (she's not mine, just my turn) and this is where I am in this journey, so far. Overall, not dating has greatly helped me learn more about myself and what I need/don't need in my life.

Finally, I will say that because of the state laws in family court, I will never get married, no matter how much "framing" or "training my woman" helps lower the odds of divorce. However, I want to have a son and have learned having children out of wedlock is not the best choice for kids. This confliction weighs heavy me so until further notice I choose to not date and focus on my goals as I don't want to waste a women's time and youth for my own selfish sexual desires.

upalse · 2021-08-02T15:08:18+00:00

BP is shades of grey, TRP is B&W. The overton mechanic is a bit like centrist vs radical politics.

PM_ME_ZED_BARA · 2021-08-01T09:39:34+00:00

First, I doubt that there is a BP manifesto, since BP is simply a disagreement with TRP and such disagreement varies, depending on individuals. So what I am going to write is my own opinions and may not be a representative on BP.

I think that my fundamental disagreement with TRP can be separated into two types: positive and normative.

On positive statements, my disagreement generally arises from lack of sufficient evidence and use of weak data in supporting of RP positive claims. For example, lets talk about female hypergamy. I agree that a lot of women's actions can be described as hypergamy and I think that data do support it. What I disagree is the claim that female hypergamy is female nature. Such claim is an essentialist argument that requires more evidence than what TRP has presented. I think TRP relies too much on biological essentialism without enough supporting data.

Also, I disagree with TRP's hasty overgeneralizations. How I view TRP's AWALT and AMALT is how I view progressives' ACAB and feminists' #YesAllMen. All these overgeneralizations are literally false and figuratively not matched with reality of sexuality, dating and relationship. And related to that, I find ways that TRP often uses studies and data to support their arguments to be at best weak and at worst mendacious. They often say that data that do not support their arguments are an outlier, while consider data or studies that support them are legitimate. I consider how TRP support their arguments and hypotheses to be full of Texas Sharpshooter fallacies.

On to what I actually believe, normative-wise: while I believe that there are biological fundamental difference between the two sexes, cultural or "nurture" factors do play important roles. How nature and nurture influence human behaviors are often intertwined. I do not consider this belief to be proven, as the evidence is not yet clear.

Now onto normative aspects, I consider myself supporters of feminism, egalitarianism, and mens' rights. From my experience in browsing TRP, I consider its contents to be often sexists. Such contents include manipulating tactics suggested by TRP as sexual/dating strategies, degradation and dehumanization of women, especially those with large n-count (not finding them attractive is not degradation though), and right-winged politics.

Apart from those two aspects, my personal experience is totally out of tune with what TRP says. I try not to rely too much on my personal experience, but I feel that TRP is simply out of touch with reality.

I am willing to change my views when it comes to disagreement in positive statements if there are more and more data supporting TRP (that's why I browse PPD and TRP.). On normative statements though, I doubt we will see eye to eye.

John_Oakman · 2021-08-01T08:43:08+00:00

I don't necessarily disagree with their facts and statistics (though I have a low opinion on the use of both in the context of debating on a matter as personal and I'm intimate as romance is concerned) or even their successes, I just disagree with their hyper enlightened self interest way of going about ensuring their success.

Just because the rest of the world is cruel, selfish etc. does not absolve one from one's obligation to be moral and kind. Altruism is debased if its rewarded (whether said reward is material or spiritual) thus the lack of good results from blue pill actions does not in fact discredit it, rather it vindicates it.

flapperfemmefatale · 2021-08-02T06:32:45+00:00

Frankly, TRP men seem like genuinely horrible people. I'm not sure I could suffer being friends with them, let alone date one. The ideology encourages them to be the exact opposite of what I'm attracted to: muscly gym rats obsessed with money and social status.

wtknight · 2021-08-01T14:16:27+00:00

I only agree with a very generalized female hypergamy (it can manifest in many different ways). Other than that, I think TRP over-generalizes. Women vary in personality quite a bit. TRP may help them to be able to attract the type of woman who already seems to annoy them, but it's not going to attract every woman out there.

wtknight · 2021-08-01T12:17:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

ivy176 · 2021-08-08T16:31:47+00:00

Red pill only focuses on a subset of society so Im sure their tactics do work for that smaller population they are trying to attract

Mrs_Drgree · 2021-08-01T14:31:58+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Good-Strong · 2021-08-02T12:44:33+00:00

I don't believe in the core concept of all men being either "alpha" or "beta", or that all straight men and women essentially want the same things, and are into pretty much the same type of people.

I believe that people's personalities, preferences, and sexualities are as a whole a lot more complicated, and varied than the red pill makes them out to be.

I also don't believe that women are overall more privileged than men either, because that as a standpoint is just completely divorced from reality.

Some other things I've heard a lot of redpillers say (but I don't think were a part of the basic philosophy) that I really don't agree with are that most younger women of 18-30 find much (10-15+ years) older men more attractive than men in their own age range, and that most young women nowadays are having body counts of 20+, both of which just sound completely ridiculous to me as a young woman from this generation.

Title	Blue Pillers, what is it you actually believe, and how does is contradict trp?
Author	Artistic_Guest4386
Upvotes	6
Comments	178
Date	August 1, 2021 7:38 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ovny6x/blue_pillers_what_is_it_you_actually_believe_and/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/blue-pillers-what-is-it-you-actually-believe-and.796375 https://theredarchive.com/post/796375

Comments