Consent? | MensRights

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Circumcision is a barbaric form of “surgery” in which they forcibly rip the foreskin from the head of the penis months before it naturally disconnects and then cut it quickly and with minimum regard to the accuracy. All of this is done without anesthesia and is proven to cause immense and permanent pain and scarring mentally and physically. It also desensitizes the head of the penis to the point where it’s much harder to reach orgasms and they aren’t as pleasurable.

And keep in mind that this is all because some doctors claim that it keeps your penis clean of smegma which is completely retarded if you think people can’t clean their penis like they have for the past 200,000 years.

More people have died from botched circumcisions than they have from infected penises caused by smegma infections.

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An undeveloped fetus isn't a person, but a baby is a person. A baby is not an undeveloped fetus. That's like saying a seed is a tree.

A seed certainly isn't a coffee table. And why is a vagina so magical that once you pass through it you're suddenly human? You existed before that moment but unfortunately there are those who see you as some sort of medical oddity or a growth. They've decided that, until some arbitrary point in time, you have no rights and you're part of another persons body that they can have removed if they so desire. I should do that with you. Until you suck my tires you're not allowed to eat. How's that? Maybe you feel like you should have a say in it? Maybe you feel like you're more of a person than that because you can move about and breathe on your own not being dependant on anything else or anyone? What if I broke both your legs and you were on disability all your life? Now can your mother murder you? How about you flap your wings and soar naked into space? Can you survive on your own then? At no point in it's lifecycle is a human being independent of it's environment, and there is no argument you can offer that will make me think that killing babies (or coffee tables since you think that's what they equate to and I'm taking to a madman and thud am forced to weild their own idioms) is acceptable.

Except in the case of rape (which is what 1% of all cases?) In which case I just wash my hands of the situation.

Pretty sure that covers all of your insanities and my opinions of them. If I've left out anything lemme know.

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You're not sounding ignorant at all.

It isn't necessary harmful physically, no. If the procedure goes right, that is. In the small chance that it goes wrong.. well, it goes bad.

There are no health benefits, either. There are people claiming that circumcision is 'cleaner'. But, in the western world, men shower very regularly. To the point that this benefit doesn't hold any merit whatsoever. Also, some research indicate that being circumcise lowers the chances of spreading/receiving std's. But again, in the western world this shouldn't really be a problem. If one has a std they should go to the doctor, get fixed up. Condoms are a thing, too. It lowers the chance, it does not remove it.

There really isn't a 'best interest' for the child when it comes to circumcision. The procedure is done for two reasons in the western world: 1. the parents just want to, make it look like daddy or 'it's normal, right?' 2. it's part of the religion/culture of the parents, something they then force onto their child. The interests of the child doesn't come into the equation at all, it's only done to please the parents.

(Unless it is of medical necessity, of course. I can't speak about circumcision in other places around the world, because I don't know to what degree men wash themselves or practice safe-sex.)

In fact with the way media and the mass public portray a penis is 99percent circumcised, so it’s probably been beneficial when getting close with someone.

I find this to be really sad, though. It's literally sexualization of scarring male genitalia. Considering that only a third of the entire world is circumcised, it's even more offending.

[–]AgentScarn475 13 points14 points15 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 39 points40 points41 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

If your definition of 'best interest of the child' amounts to 'it didn't negatively impact me' or 'it fits in better with the social norm', then that rationale can be used to justify all sorts of plastic surgery on infants.

The medical profession's guiding principle is that above all else, they should do no harm, and every single time a circumcision is performed, they are putting that infant at risk of a negative outcome. Dozens of infants a year die from circumcision related complications. Babies have been infected with herpes by mohels performing old-school Jewish circumcisions, too. A percentage lose their entire penis, or have it mangled. Unless the medical profession can demonstrate a clear need that offsets those risks and known outcomes, there's really no justification for performing them.

And it costs a lot of men reduced sensitivity in their glans, so sex is less enjoyable than it would have been otherwise.

[–]AgentScarn475 14 points15 points16 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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But if a parent makes a decision is the best interest of the child isn’t that ok?

What was in your best interest might not be in the best interest of the child.

That kid might grow up and learn a little, and find out he didn't want it and feel violated, just like a lot of other people.

it hasn’t caused me any grief or handicaps that I’m aware of.

Doctors fuck up, and this is genitals we are talking about... so I'll just throw that in there. Just cause they didn't mess up with you, doesn't mean they wouldn't mess up with him. There can always be complications. Not to mention, a lowering in sensitivity.

so it’s probably been beneficial when getting close with someone.

If a girl doesn't want your son because he still has his foreskin do you really want that kind of shallow girl with your son anyways?

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It's pretty clear that their stance is:

routine male circumcision should not be performed prior to the age of 6 months.

and that it "may contravene human rights". How can you read that and think, 'yup, sounds good to me'. There is no clear evidence that it is medically beneficial, so just cut some of their dick off because someone else's religion used to? You admit that a vice director at a children's hospital is recommending a treatment with no medical benefit. And not just any medical treatment, but an irreversible surgery with non-negligible chance of complications. Even in this statement it says: "In the majority of cases, parents will decide for or against a routine male circumcision on family, social, aesthetic and religious grounds rather than on medical ones".

Seems so strange to me that people defend it at all. Might as well say: 'cut out one ball while you're down there, it might halve their chance of testicular cancer'.

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[–]CreeperCooper 3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

major advantages

Name them, then.

In the western world, circumcision isn't going to make a dick cleaner at all. Good hygiene is so common here that circumcision will have no effect. In Africa or the ME this might be a reason.

It may reduce the chance of getting a std. But again, in the western world, boys learn sex-ed. Men know how to have safe sex. Even if a man doesn't know how to have safe sex, circumcision isn't going to do much. It only lowers the chance of getting a std, it does not make it certain. Again, in Africa or the ME it might have a sizable effect, but in the western world it wouldn't.

why is it not alright for a family to choose this for their child?

The main one is consent. This new born baby cannot consent to what happens to his penis. Now you might be wondering, well, big deal, right?

Well.. it's his body. He has to live in it his entire life. We are in the age of #MeToo and "Her body, her choice". I don't think it's unreasonable to apply those standards to men, too. His body, his choice. A new born baby cannot consent to an operation like this.

Second is freedom of religion. If circumcision is wanted because of religion, well, too bad. That new born kid has no idea who or what god is. Freedom of religion also means not being forced into practicing one, meaning that a kid should be protected from having religion enforced on his private parts.

When at 18, the male can decide for himself if he wants to be circumcised or not. That's his choice.

[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Very hostile way of answering an honest question -

WebMD and other, non-religious sites, show otherwise

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.
A reduced risk of some sexually transmitted diseases in men. Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.
Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).
Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).
It doesn't look like an awkward turtle. (edit - trying to inject comedy)

The consent argument is pretty weak because a baby can't consent to anything, it's the parents legal responsibility to choose what is best for their child. This covers medical care, to type of clothing they buy, to food they feed them.

The religion part is still under the legal rights of the parent so I don't need to repeat myself.

(There is no comparison between female and male circumcision)

[–]CreeperCooper 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Very hostile way of answering an honest question

I wasn't being hostile, though? How did you expect a reply would look, then? Sorry if you thought I was acting hostile, that wasn't my intention at all.

WebMD:

The American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) found that the health benefits of newborn male circumcision outweigh the risks, but the benefits are not great enough to recommend universal newborn circumcision. The procedure may be recommended in older boys and men to treat phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) or to treat an infection of the penis.

A decreased risk of urinary tract infections.

A very low chance of getting it if you practice basic hygiene. Something ever male practices in the western world.

A reduced risk of some sexually transmitted diseases in men. Protection against penile cancer and a reduced risk of cervical cancer in female sex partners.

A reduced risk is always great, sure. But in the western world men are learned to have safe sex. They wear condoms, know how std's work and are transmitted.

It’s rare. But it can be treated, especially if it’s found early on. In the U.S., doctors find it in about 2,100 men each year.

That's a really low number. The chance of getting it's is already tiny, circumcision isn't going to be a large effect.

Prevention of balanitis (inflammation of the glans) and balanoposthitis (inflammation of the glans and foreskin).

Avoided by basic hygiene.

Prevention of phimosis (the inability to retract the foreskin) and paraphimosis (the inability to return the foreskin to its original location).

Very low chance of happening, too. Can be treated with a cream, circumcision isn't always necessary to treat it.

The consent argument is pretty weak because a baby can't consent to anything, it's the parents legal responsibility to choose what is best for their child. This covers medical care, to type of clothing they buy, to food they feed them.

Medical care, buying clothes and feeding babies are necessary to keep them alive. Circumcision isn't.

You might think that circumcision falls under medical care, but you'd be wrong. There aren't any real arguments to suggest that circumcision is a big medical plus in the western world. In Africa or ME, maybe.

The religion part is still under the legal rights of the parent so I don't need to repeat myself.

Why is it okay to enforce a religion on a newborn baby? Reading the bible to a kid is a lot different than cutting off skin, right? Is religion a justifiable reason to enforce medical operations on babies who don't hold such religions?

If that kid grows up to be an atheist, he will forever be physically branded as the religion his parents are. That's not freedom of religion. Going to Sunday school or having to hear bible verses is not the same as being physically scarred for life.

(There is no comparison between female and male circumcision)

When considering it from a biological view you are correct. The body of boys and girls are not the same.

Looking at it from a ethical view, you'd be dead wrong. There is nothing different from the moral of taking away the consent of a child (male or female) and cutting in it for religious or cultural reasons.

When people compare fgm and mgm they don't compare the biological effects it produces, but the ethics of it. Is it okay to take away the rights to decide how someones own body looks? Saying no to 'fgm' and 'yes' mgm would be morally corrupt.

[–]Arthas_Greyjoy4 points 8 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is a contraversial sub because it focuses on specific imbalances in western society that favor women, which goes against the liberal agenda in all our media saying we live in a patriarchal society. I dont particularly agree with everything posted here, I dont frequent this sub even, but even I am not naive enough to misunderstand the purpose of this subreddit. It is abused men who are oppressed by a society that for whatever reason has chosen to favor women in live altering points and events of their lives, who want to make it known that they are receiving the brunt end of this current push of feminism to upend society in their own favor.

Feminism has chosen to adopt any and all movements, and segments, in its name as one unified front in order to rally behind the idea that any and all women are victims of oppression and we must focus all efforts to rectify this. In reality there are specific situations where either sex has its advantages or disadvantages, which can to one degree or another be exploited to their advantage. Inclusive feminism, or intersectional feminism, was supposed to be a subset of this movement aimed at addressing this subs issues. It was of course hijacked by what I would call a special interest group. What I mean by that is in a group where minorities are identified, there will be one minority which fights to establish dominance in that group in their own best interests. Hence a special interest group. Obviously the whole maga craze got hijacked by white supremacist neo nazis, in the same sense that BLM was hijacked by black supremacists, cop killers, and anarchists.

The reality of this sub is that the angriest and most passionate will be the loudest and heard first. That doesnt give you the right the declare which direction the sub is headed because you are culling the least fortunate who struggle to be heard, and fight to stay afloat. Please think about what you are trying to promote on a MENS RIGHTS subreddit when you begin trying to police its content.

[–]FreeBroccoli -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Consent?
Author	Kuonji
Upvotes	1482
Comments	273
Date	July 12, 2018 8:51 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/8ydljy/consent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/consent.1186323 https://theredarchive.com/post/1186323

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