Damn Right | MensRights

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The study of people and groups.

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[–]Korinthe -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

But women are actively discriminated against when it comes to employment. It might be illegal (and up to our legal systems to chase up and stamp down on) but it still happens. One of my peers on the course I am on also runs a small business and she outright admitted to the class that she doesnt hire women; her business can not afford to pay maternity leave PLUS someone else to cover the workload during that time.

I dont have an answer to fix that, I think we need to chalk it up to fundamental biological differences or accept massive social change (on the lines of getting rid of capitalsm just to give one example).

Edit: My bad guys, thought I would try to re engage with this sub since its gone down the shitter lately. How dare I mention that women get descrimated against! Feels like /r/feminism in here. Wont make the mistake again, enjoy the circlejerk.

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Yep double majored in psychology (thought I was gonna be a psychiatrist and become a doctor like my parents and sister to the point I took the MCAT and was a hair's breadth away from accepting an acceptance letter to med school) and history, and instead of going into medicine, decided to pursue modern Russian history. And both on a stimulating level and economic angle I'm glad I decided with my humanities oriented path. With my doctorate that I will ahve hopefully by 2020 I can continue working for the government as a consultant in DC or go anywhere I want in the private sector that deals with Russia and the US.

I probably won't be making as much money as a psychiatrist in a private clinic, but the idea that there's no way to make money or have a meaningful and happy career based off of your humanities degree is utter bullshit if you know how to use it. Have a friend who now teaches college who got his doctorate in Early American history (wrote about Methodism in Kentucky during the early 19th century) and right after he got his doctorate he spent a some time working for a US senator in helping win the religious vote in this southern state. He said it was good money also.

[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Tissue285 points 9 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

You clearly do not know what you are talking about.

[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The last time I spoke with a sociologist (Master's degree and personally somewhat clever) my impression was:

little to no math involved. Some quantifiable information is pretty important, though.
theories that sound like science ("power dynamics" and lots of structures, systems etc.) but have nothing close to the evidence and were still portrayed as having lots of merit. Hell, even mentioned Freud who was wrong about everything.
so much jargon as I never heard even from astrophysicists
lots of political activism

When sociologists publish awesome findings and attract the great brains (as for instance genetics and neuroscience currently do), I change my mind. Before, I refuse to respect things merely because they are located at a university. I'd actually find a plumber more interesting to talk to (without condescension, to make that clear).

[+]Tissue285 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Real sociologist are heavily trained in advanced statistical coding. But hey, anecdotal evidence still counts right? ;)

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[+]130i points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Getting a job at a bank isn't necessarily hard, what does he actually do?

Most jobs within a bank you don't even need a degree.

[–]LowEndLem 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]barfbaggins points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

A college senior probably has some idea of what interests her most. What if she has zero interest in STEM? All fields need super smart people. Living up to the expectations of others would be the bigger waste, imo.

[–]notacrackheadofficer 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]barfbaggins points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

You know your friend's family, I don't. I grew up before helicopter parenting, and I supported myself through college. We can both be right, depending on the person. Happy New Year

[–]notacrackheadofficer 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]mysteryslice points 9 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

You also could have asked her what she was going to do with her degree. "Sosh" can be fulfilling for lots of reasons. Are all BA's an "oh" response for you?

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[–]notacrackheadofficer -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not offended. I'm on reddit, where people accuse each other of fictional things. I know where I am.
One can casually observe others making up bullshit about others without being offended.
I'm an artist. I seriously support art and craft as a career, but just for smart people, who are trying to make a career out of it, or at least learn the value of individual hard work. Sociology comes from power elite social planning horseshit, for the most part. I'm well aware of linguistics and how they can be used to manipulate others.
Only a fool would group all BAs together. The young people today NEED some form of group think propaganda in every sentence they think nowadays. this is a serious flaw.
I think most people are dumbasses, and do not give a flying fuck about what happens to kids raised on TV. There's my group think. I hope others' kids do NOT peform well in life, so my own intelligent, and driven child can rise to the top easier. My group is me and my child.

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[–]notacrackheadofficer -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But neither you or the other commenters know her at all to assume anything about her. She's a person, not a reddit concept. You have literally no idea why she chose that major. Maybe she wants to be a car sales person, looking to take advantage of the the way people speak. Maybe she has an eveil plan to rule the world. Maybe she wants to scam liberals out of big bucks with a fake charity. Maybe she wants to end feminism. Maybe she wants to kill all men and rule the women. Stop trying to fit this nice complex human into your convenient group sorting. Women do NOT and have not had the short end of the stick, compared to men in the same economic class as them. I am not open for debate on that point anymore. It's nonsense. All my male ancestors had it just as bad as my female ancestors, or worse. .

[–]DJHypetrain 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]notacrackheadofficer 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I do not understand you. Spelling? Quote where I said anything like ''humans as a whole are not positive or altruistic, and that the only consideration of women is negative.'' please? I reread my comment, and it seems you have decided to assume a whole lot and made some stuff up bout me.
''The only consideration of women is negative'' Boy am I puzzled about what you are talking about. I don't think of women in groups. Unless you mean smart women and dumbass women. I group men like that too. Dumbasses and smart ones. Most of both groups are dumbasses one could herd into social responsibility as easily as one could herd houseflies.
Humans as a whole are dumb and do not know words like altruistic,
The whole positive and negative thing is nothing I ever consider at all. I find both terms to be ignorant blather as regards human behavior. Some new age crap meant to make people feel ''unfulfilled'' or some crap to keep you down hearted, so you buy into more bullshit.
There are thousands of batter words than can be used to discuss things. Boiling things down to bad or good ruins intelligent discourse.
Evolution in nature often involves discomfort and even population depletion before great comfort and tribal/species strength can occur.
We are unevolved monkey level barbarians so far.
Most humans are very poor, and in shitty situations, and it's shitty for both genders most places. The poor are treated extremely negatively by the ultra wealthy, for thousands of years. Half of the ultra wealthy have always been female. I'm from NYC, and grew up there. I have witnessed plenty of toxic wealthy people. Toxic female wealthy and toxic male wealthy. Horrible rich people abusing poor people trying to serve them fucking hamburgers or whatever. As it has been for thousands of years.
It's not ''negative''. We are just unevolved barbarian monkeys going hoo hoo hoo at each other, as we poison the earth under our feet. Nothing negative. Just infinity playing out scenarios. This is all probably just an illusion anyway.

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[+]chacalat_milk points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Found the sociological major.

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[+]FRedington points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Clarey, "Worthless: The Young Person's Indispensable Guide to Choosing the Right Major"

https://www.amazon.com/Worthless-Young-Persons-Indispensable-Choosing/dp/1467978302

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[+]jav276 points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Best of luck to you. You'll need it

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[+]WanderingStoner points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

People will not listen to the new young person, in many cases rightfully so. I'm a 29 year old software engineer and i have noticed major changes in how I am precieved in the past year, the again I am more on point than ever and can hold my own with upper management now.

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[+]Iwishiknewwhatiknew points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Not sure about the second half about that statement. But it's true you do taper off in salary terms as a senior engineer, but being able to make a boatload early in your career and put that away pays out in the end. Compound interest man. 50k at 25 is worth more than 200k at 40.

[–]wpiman 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]jav276 points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Doesn't mean you can't move to management in your thirties and continue ballin on your way to VP if you work hard enough

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[–]derangedkilr 70 points71 points72 points 9 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

But legit. This is actually a thing that should be the backbone of feminism. The whole, 'girls are smart too and can do anything' sounds like feminism to me. And it goes hand in hand with being more accepting of men in home scenarios because you'd get more men being home parents because the woman would be out being, you know, doctors or whatever.

But still. I admire the idea of feminism but women actually are statistically more satisfied with their jobs BECAUSE they don't have as much pressure of needing to have a high paying job.

Closing that gap means women might be less satisfied with their job. But that also means men might not have so much pressure to get a high paying job.

So I'm fine with that.

That being said, we're all going to be unemployed in 20 years so none of it really doesn't matter besides the social implications.

TL;DR: this should be feminism. Men's rights & feminism are pushing for the same thing.

[–]superduperdudertudor 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]derangedkilr 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

I think that's more the stance of feminazi's (for a lack of a better word). I think the majority of feminism (people like Emma Watson) have the stance of wanting to get rid of the stereotype of women being helpless and men being aggressive.

Which is something that men's rights is trying to push as well, that men shouldn't be viewed as aggressors.

Although I don't think those feminists like Emma Watson fully understand why people dislike feminism and thus don't understand how to fix the divide. They don't fully understand the problems with Feminizi's being so aggressive.

I think a clear difference between the two types of feminists is that general feminists want the gender stereotypes to not exist. Feminazi's want females to have the same gender stereotype as men or either have the gender rolls flipped entirely.

A problem with the feminazi's position is that they don't fully grasp the negativities of the male stereotype. They don't see men's rights as an issue.

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]platypuspup 193 points194 points195 points 9 years ago (111 children) | Copy Link

[–]djdiggla 37 points38 points39 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Uh, anyone with four years experience is going to get shat on. The magic numbers are 5 and 10 years experience. 5 years you can tell they crap company that took a a chance on you to take a hike because other companies will actually hire someone with 5 years experience. 10 years you can leave that company to go work someplace that values your opinion because you're the experienced new hire now. Nobody with under 5 years experience is taken seriously. That's reality (even if you think they are they are not). And truthfully nobody ever will think of you as anything more than who they hired no matter how long you've been there (unless you have such massive turnover that nobody has been there longer than you). If you expected to be respected just because you made it through school then you are out of touch. If you leave your industry because you're butt hurt that nobody cares what a greenhorn says then good riddance. There are some intrinsic realities to the workforce. A four year engineer is a fucking nobody. At least in the world I'm in which is petroleum engineering. I hope if you have an engineering degree you stick it out and realize that it's not because you're a woman (or at least not entirely because we all know there are sexist fucks out there). Keep your eye one the prize. Remember that every year you're thee getting shat on multiplies your value (at least on paper). Use your shit years to your advantage and do as much as possible to become versatile in your profession. Remember that highest paid is almost alway first canned when times are tough. Be valuable. Continue learning especially if there are any company paid continuing education opportunities or certifications. Most of all remember you don't owe them a damn thing and use them as a spring board.

[–]platypuspup 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Very different industry. I was in semiconductor and the shelf life of is often closer to 2 years in our area (Lam to AMAT and back each time you want a cost of living increase because both companies are short sighted and refuse to ever give a raise in house). And I will repeat what I have said to the others: I wasn't expecting that. But I was expecting to be treated as well as the kid 4 years younger than me who didn't have a masters. But nope. They wanted pretty pictures from me, no matter how many times I told them that FEA was a waste of time for calculating I-beam stresses. Or that the FEA the idiot without a degree made (because apparently doing enough CAD data input is just as good) which predicted 2 inch deflection in the support when we could clearly see with our own eyes that the deflection was less than 1/8 inch was more valued for change input even after I pointed out that reality didn't match his calc. But yes, this was just me expecting glory, not just sane analysis of the facts presented.

I am not butthurt they wouldn't listen to someone green. I am saying they have to have some pretty strong biases to believe a person telling them things that contradict their own observations of reality over the person that turns up with the real life measurements and pictures that support what they have seen with their own eyes in the lab.

But then again, I moved to teaching, because you are right. I don't own them a damn thing. I owe my self a life where I want to go to work every day, I can change misogyny in the technology and science fields before these kids get there, and I really care about what I do. But sure, call that social contribution less valuable to our world then engineering in memes because it makes you feel like the problems of inequality in the world aren't part of your making.

[–]superduperdudertudor 99 points100 points101 points 9 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[–]gogorivergirl 71 points72 points73 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aeponix 17 points18 points19 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

No one is acting like sexism doesn't exist, but a lot of negative behavior is falsely attributed to sexism. High powered careers can be very competitive, and very harsh on the newbies, male or female.

I think I speak for most people here when I say that people like the man in your story deserve a smack upside the head. Genuine sexism deserves resistance. Personally, I have a lot of experience with women who cry sexism whenever they experience any kind of hazing, and sussing out whether they're being treated poorly because they're a woman, or because they're the new employee, is pretty important. Sometimes you get hazing in the form of sexist remarks, and that's where the line gets obscure, because you have this existing workplace culture where the new guy gets tested a bit, and if you come through it with good humor, you get welcomed to the team. It's a very common way for groups who have new members to make them earn their way in, and isn't necessarily sexism or even intended with ill will, it's just about seeing what the new guy is made of.

So yeah, genuine sexism should be squashed, but I've heard the same complaints as the op from male engineers coming out of school. No one takes fresh people seriously, and everyone has to prove themselves. In these workplaces, you aren't given respect, you earn it. They're not safe spaces. So when a lot of us hear that a woman wasn't taken seriously in a male dominated field, we kind of wonder whether she's earned her stripes yet.

Tl;dr genuine sexism = bad, but shit-talking is sometimes mistaken as misogyny. Good luck getting rid of shit-talking. While you're being super offended, they'll be shit-talking you behind your back for being overly sensitive.

[–]Mens-Advocate 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]superduperdudertudor 51 points52 points53 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]superduperdudertudor 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]gogorivergirl 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]assholeinhisbathrobe -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]gogorivergirl -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]superduperdudertudor points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

c'mon. We have a woman here respectfully conversing and possibly interested in listening to what mensrights has to say. So we fuck it up with this?

[+]assholeinhisbathrobe points 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Yep. Notice the /s Don't be a candy ass

[–]superduperdudertudor 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ho_ho_beri_beri 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]AnArzonist points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh I'm definitely sexist, all the girls I know get tossed into three categories: Mother figure, Potential Girlfriend, No interested. All the guys get tossed into: Boss/Mentor, Trainee, Random Human. They're essentially the same categories, but they definitely get treated differently. Mostly I think I expect a lot more of women.

Mother figures are expected to take care of a lot more little stuff than I should probably put on them
Boss/Mentors are only talked to when I'm looking for information.
Potential Girlfriends are expected to hold their own, but for some reason I feel the need to offer my help even though I know damn well they're more capable than I am in their given field.
Trainees I explain first then watch expecting them to fail.
No Interest is strictly business conversations and I really have no interest in talking beyond that or making friends.
Randoms Humans are out right avoided even when I have to make some business style interaction with them.

I am a horrible human, but I'll be damned if it doesn't make my life easier.

[–]gogorivergirl 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]MrAwwesome points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Great hobby you got there. Those rivers are super fun. Plenty of people on those rivers are dumb hillbillies but there's also a lot of good people around those parts.

[–]gogorivergirl 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]caffienatedjedi 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not making the assumption, the assumption is made by the legal doctrine(disparate impact/adverse impact) that discrimination is possible. Its just up to someone to push it.

Its a common enough case that is made. Plenty of companies have gotten in trouble for having people promoted who were disproportionately white and unable to prove it wasn't discrimination, for instance.There was an adverse impact on a protected group, and they failed to provide adequate reasoning why. Those same grounds could apply to this and the law equally applies to all protected classes.

I made no personal assumption about the quality of the employees, or the employer, and noted that the proportions of the workforce in management roles did not fit the labor force. My views weren't challenged in the slightest, and I made no mention of whether discrimination did or did not occur, but that a case could be made in the affirmative under that legal doctrine(disparate impact/adverse impact).

[–]YoMammaSoThin 26 points27 points28 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

I'm an engineer, male. I'm in charge of sysadmin in a small business, as well as HR, and some financial stuff. I had to learn to deal with being shit on by everyone in the workplace while suggesting improvements I spent years studying to be able to make happen. I was called "engineer" in a sarcastic way for 3 years by some senior employees and had to shove that up my ass and just keep at it. This year is the first in 5 years where I perceived some sort of authority after changing the organizational structure and the office's layout. Some of them still shit on me, but in the back of my head I go back home laughing because I have self esteem. I know what I'm worth. So fuck them. Thinking like this has allowed me to be able to survive a low wage, bad work environment, and a dimmed perspective of what my future was. I had the drive to keep moving and pick my battles. I failed more than i succeeded, but in the end I saw progress, and I never thought of quitting or abandoning my career. But that's me, I don't expect everyone to do as I do. And I think everyone's first 5 years of work should d feel like that. You have to earn the respect of others. Men know this. We get shit from everyone, women included. And we push on. Or quit and fail at life.

[–]superduperdudertudor 28 points29 points30 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]YoMammaSoThin 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]platypuspup 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Or quit and find that I enjoy a career that yes, gets shit on, but I actually make a difference EVERY SINGLE DAY. Maybe being a teacher gets paid less because it was historically a woman's job, and we do get treated like shit by parents and admins and everyone else, but I can tolerate the shit when it doesn't feel like a waste of time. Who wants to waste 1/3-1/2 of their waking hours for 5 years? What does that prove? It proves to me that you should be applying to other places where you might be respected.

Honestly, if you are being told that you need to suck up being crushed every day or you aren't manly enough, then you are victim of the same misogyny I speak of. Treating people like crap is not normal or okay. Just because you lived with it without complaining doesn't mean it is okay to condone it for others. Maybe you are the one that needs to learn to have respect for yourself and start applying to other companies that treat you like a contributing member of their staff, instead of being brainwashed into believing that doing what is best for you is somehow considered "quitting".

[–]YoMammaSoThin 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]HeadHunt0rUK 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I don't see anywhere where this couldn't apply to a male as well.

Turns out that going to work every day to have your voice ignored or your ideas stolen feels like a waste of effort.

This happens to everyone who is still low on the totem pole.

Sexism still exists, but your situation hardly proves it.

It's like people saying only girls get harassed on the internet(mainly video games).

Actually I'm willing to bet everyone gets harassed on the internet(video games), but the ones who've been in that culture longer (who are probably more likely to be male) are just used to it.

Failing to realise that many people who are trying to harass you are just going after the soft spots to see if it will get a rise out of you. If you're black you're gunna get black insults, if you're fat you're going to get fat insults and if you're a girl, guess what.

Also.. there is no wage gap. There is an earnings gap.

[–]platypuspup 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I wasn't expecting that. But I was expecting to be treated as well as the kid 4 years younger than me who didn't have a masters. But nope. They wanted pretty pictures from me, no matter how many times I told them that FEA was a waste of time for calculating I-beam stresses. Or that the FEA the idiot without a degree made (because apparently doing enough CAD data input is just as good) which predicted 2 inch deflection in the support when we could clearly see with our own eyes that the deflection was less than 1/8 inch was valued for change input even after I pointed out that reality didn't match his calc. But yes, this was just me expecting glory, not just sane analysis of the facts presented.

And to add to your part about the earnings gap, it is interesting that fields that were originally dominated by women make less than male roles, even when they take comparable education. There is no reason that teaching and nursing should be paid less than IT, but it is often the case. And nursing has a huge labor shortage right now.

[–]HeadHunt0rUK 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Age means nothing. Experience does.

Hoping to be treated as well just because you have a masters is naive. The people you work with aren't the ones hiring you. They don't give a fuck what kind of qualifications you have and more than likely won't stand for much pomposity by suggesting as much.

They wanted pretty pictures from me

This seems like the only thing that is disturbing.

However if this is true you probably would have seen a decent payday. HR wouldn't stand for it, and most media outlets would have been happy to report what happened to you with very little evidence.

Whilst some employees may be sexist. Companies certainly aren't. They are in fact very open and welcoming to women, particularly in STEM sectors where they get so badly criticised for not having 50% females.

And to add to your part about the earnings gap, it is interesting that fields that were originally dominated by women make less than male roles, even when they take comparable education. There is no reason that teaching and nursing should be paid less than IT, but it is often the case. And nursing has a huge labor shortage right now.

I would have expected someone who has a Masters Degree in an Engineering field to be smarter than this.

A number of things are wrong with this comparison.

Firstly you're comparing an entire sector of employment to two specific jobs.

I guarantee you the IT support at your school is making pennies on the dollar compared to you.

Second, IT is one of the most growing sectors of industry. OF COURSE they're offering higher salaries compared to two professions that have been round for hundreds of years.

The ever increasing need of a presence for EVERYONE to be on the internet informs this

Third. Teaching is an awful profession to make a comparison for. They don't work 52 weeks in the year, and are always going to get paid less because of the 39-40 weeks they do work. Equivalency matters.

For the record, I don't believe teaching requires a comparable education to IT professions that command significantly more salary. The technical know-how required and time put in to learning such things is just greater than what your average teacher learns.

As anecdotal evidence, I worked as an Un-qualified teacher for a year at my old high-school. Initially to help a 13 year old do a Maths A-Level(18 year old exam).

I took on more responsibilities during the year, teaching an A-Level module to 17-18 year olds, as well as helping Special Needs children in Year 7 (Aged 11).

In the end I got the 13 year old an A* at Maths, 5 of his classmates also got a couple of modules graded at A*.

The 17-18 year olds all got a C or higher and ALL of them achieving at least their expected grade, with most of them over-achieving.

14/15 SEN kids improved their SAT level significantly from unregistered to at least lvl 3 (most at level 4).

I also spent five hours during and after school the day before the GCSE exam (15 year old) teaching two kids who were expected to fail (less than a C) and got them a C and a B.

Whilst teaching isn't rewarded too much initially, after 5-10 years in the UK you are probably earning the equivilent of 50k per year.

Hell the guy who taught me Maths was on the equivilent of 66k per year, but obviously only working 40 or so weeks of the year meant that he took home far less.

[–]cynoclast 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]platypuspup 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Very true. Which is why you have to do what will fulfill you every day. Not what some meme tells you is worth more to society.

The sad thing is that this is just as anti-mensrights as women's. You think there isn't a man out there that was just made to feel a bit worse because they want to be a social worker or teacher or nurse or librarian? Just because STEM is associated with men doesn't mean they can't be beat down by the system that says "Engineer: BOY" "Childcare worker: GIRL" mentality that our culture still has.

I mean, I love my job so much more now because I know that by interacting with hundreds of students in physics every year I am going to have more impact than at a semiconductor company where someone might eventually let me change the design of a heating plate.

But it still boggles my mind that even though I am increasing the pool of people who might make the next big leap for semiconductor industry by hundreds (I mean, my school used to have rotating subs for physics, there was no learning done for a while) that is considered to be worth 30% of my value as a voiceless cube drone who spent a year on a project that then was scrapped because of an economic downturn. It seems like creating the next technological labor force should be worth more than creating things that will be arbitrarily decapitated by the cyclical nature of markets. But I am sure that this woman has really thought through what is best for the future men and women of this country, and that is that we should all become engineers and neglect the human service side of our country, not that that is where many economists say will be where the most job growth will be or anything.

[–]sillymod 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]casemodsalt 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]platypuspup 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]reddisaurus points 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

That's pretty standard for being a junior engineer. And truth is, new hire engineers can contribute significantly but rarely have useful original ideas because they simply haven't learned enough to know what problems haven't yet been solved.

[–]platypuspup 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]Achack 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not pretending to know exactly what you went through but I do know that everyone who doesn't go to work for their parent's company deals with a lot of shit at their job. I had trouble facing the fact that most people who say they like/love their job have just learned that certain stuff is going to suck and if it didn't suck you wouldn't get paid much for it.

What I can tell you is that men have absolutely gone through what you've described, it exists in any competitive environment. The idea that men go around helping each other out whenever they can and deliberately stepping all over women separately is a myth promoted by people who haven't spent enough time in a competitive work environment. Everyone who starts as a nobody takes a lot of shit before they give any, the stories about people walking into a workplace and revolutionizing it and getting a huge raise are nothing more than anecdotal.

[–]platypuspup 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Shirakawasuna 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Great, more stories about you. This does nothing to address the fact that the overwhelming response to a woman claiming sexism, largely without details, was for men to cast doubt on her claim based on their experience as men in the workplace. That is itself a subtle form of sexism and none of you are picking up on it.

I've pointed this out 4-5 times now and you have yet to address it.

Edit: and, again, the appropriate response to someone taking about sexism they experienced is to ask questions first. Pretend you're actually speaking to a real person. If someone tells you they've experienced sexism, racism, homophobia, or (your example) anti-Semitism, is your default response to that person immediate doubt? If so, you are part of the problem. It means your aren't providing a space in which people feel comfortable to bring these problems up. It means a lack of solidarity in the workplace. If you care about these issues, you have to do better.

[–]superduperdudertudor 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[+]WiWiWiWiWiWi points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

I got a degree in Physics, masters in Mech Eng. And I got treated like crap for 4 years as an female engineer before switching to be a Physics teacher. Turns out that going to work every day to have your voice ignored or your ideas stolen feels like a waste of effort.

And was that because you're a woman, or because of your personality and attitude? Since you immediately blame misogyny, I think it's safe to assume it's the latter.

[–]platypuspup 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]BannedFromImzy 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]platypuspup 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I've basically replied to this a bunch of times and gotten chastised for copying it, so I will let you look at my replies to other comments for details. But basically, men with less experience and with observably wrong calculations were listened to over me, and many of my (male) coworkers observed it and pointed it out to me too.

I honestly don't want to be an entrepreneur. I thought about it for a year when I decided to leave the last company and take a year to travel and reflect- I had been saving my pretty good salary much of the time I worked. In the end, I found that I would rather impact the world by introducing hundreds, and hopefully eventually thousands, of people to physics which I love. I like the iterative process of teaching that allows me to feel like I can improve every year- similar to what I liked about engineering a tool or machine.

And it never feels like I have wasted my time (other than professional development days, which are rather repetitive but at least take up less time than useless meetings used to). Also, as a teacher, I do have to take a lot of crap, but it feels less related to my gender as the male teachers get a lot of the same crap. In a way, I would rather be disrespected for my choice of career than the gender I was born with and associate with. At least then when I argue, I don't have as many people acting like I have imagined the biases. Everyone knows teachers are disrespected, people are somehow blind to the fact women are.

[–]steasybreakeasy 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]platypuspup 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I also think that people don't see how this whole meme is negatively affecting men's rights as well. It is part of the system that implies that social jobs SHOULD be paid less than STEM. But as men become more equal participators in fields like teaching and nursing, they are wondering why they aren't valued as much as someone who makes a few clicks on wall street.

Why does a guy who works an 80 hour week teaching need to then turn around and drive an uber just to make ends meet just because 100 years ago teaching was a job that only spinsters who didn't have to support a family had? Or why does nursing, which requires at least as much education as a car mechanic sometimes pay less? Again, because it hasn't changed enough that we consider it a job on it's own. It always used to be a job for either single women still looking for a man, or for subsidizing a family's income, not for supporting a family on its own. Until we recognize that a lot of the logic behind the difference in pay IS historical, and IS based on misogynistic ideals of gender roles, it is going to suck for both Men and Women who want to contribute to society to the best of their abilities, not just the abilities deemed men's work in the early 1900's.

[–]bignicky222 15 points16 points17 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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this is hilariously laughably wrong from a handful of incorrect sources. for a better example, look at the legal industry where everything is extensively tracked because practice of law is highly regulated, whereas STEM is not. in law, over the last decade, oversaturation actually became a huge problem where they can literally track the number of law grads who never get law jobs. most law firms report data to NALP also, which is why the data is so clear. there, unemployment of law grads is over 50%, lawyer salaries have been in freefall, and that's if they can get jobs at all. biglaw used to start first years at 160-180k, and now it's 90-120k for all but the top 3ish firms. average first year across the board is now 40-60k. this has never happened in STEM because there is no oversupply problem.

yes there are some subfields of STEM that have gone out of style, but most STEM salaries have continued to skyrocket far above anything else. in fact, wages have been rocketing up so fast that almost every major company in silicon valley including google and apple got busted in a huge antitrust case intentionally suppressing wage growth.

on top of that, the entire H1B, and green card LCA perm programs exist simply because there's a laughably huge demand that far outstrips supply. these are actual government findings and massive policies that allow corporations to hire hundreds of thousands of foreign STEM workers in the US and give them work authorization and residency in the US simply because there are too few STEM workers in the US. in order to hire foreigners, companies have to demonstrate various levels of having legitimately attempted to hire americans.

so which do you believe? a handful of anecdotes from random college professors, or a half billion dollar settlement for runaway STEM wages, and the entire existence of work authorization programs that employ hundreds of thousands of foreigners solely on the basis of the lack of STEM labor in the US...

[–]patderp 41 points42 points43 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[+]seismo93 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

You think that the only peoplpe who work for Netflix, video Games and HBO are comp sci? You realise all that content was created by primarily arts major or no degree?

[–]Realityishardmode 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Boreras 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

This is not a solution because when women start pursuing a certain career en masse, the pay of that occupation drops. Teachers is the most well known example, but this is more interesting:

A striking example is to be found in the field of recreation — working in parks or leading camps — which went from predominantly male to female from 1950 to 2000. Median hourly wages in this field declined 57 percentage points, accounting for the change in the value of the dollar, according to a complex formula used by Professor Levanon. The job of ticket agent also went from mainly male to female during this period, and wages dropped 43 percentage points.

The same thing happened when women in large numbers became designers (wages fell 34 percentage points), housekeepers (wages fell 21 percentage points) and biologists (wages fell 18 percentage points). The reverse was true when a job attracted more men. Computer programming, for instance, used to be a relatively menial role done by women. But when male programmers began to outnumber female ones, the job began paying more and gained prestige.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

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[+]banmenow points 9 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Everytime I see/read/hear the wage gap discussion, nobody ever talks about the same thing.

The conversation always starts as this: women get paid less for the same job than men.

Then somebody mentions how women are more likely to get paid less because more women go into lower-paying jobs like nursing, early childhood education and whatever else.. then the conversation continues from there.

Nobody ever mentions out the counterpoint is completely irrelevant to the opening point, where they're talking about the same job.

Now, I'm not involved in the subject, I don't know if there is a gap or not, but I know most media sources on the subject has a lot of misinformation.

Just wanted to vent, nobody's going to read this.

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[–]EricAllonde 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here you go, this is a huge study (8.7 million employees) comparing men and women in the same jobs:

http://www.haygroup.com/en/our-library/whitepapers/gender-pay-gap

Conclusion:

For years we’ve read bold headlines about the gender pay gap, reporting that around the world men are paid an average of 20% more than women. Our global research confirms this gap but also shows that when compared “like for like”, the gender pay gap reduces to 1.6%.

Put simply a man and a woman doing the same job in the same function and company, get paid almost exactly the same.

Why is there an unexplained 1.6% gap left? It could have something to do with women taking around 2 days more sick leave than men per year, on average, and also women taking roughly 3-6 days more vacation time per year than men on average. But we don't know for sure, the research isn't there to state that with certainty.

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XKCD: Every Major's Terrible!	3 - relevant xkcd guy singing relevant xkcd Happy new year
Major General song from The Pirates of Penzance, Gilbert And Sullivan (31July11)	3 - Image Link Mobile Title: Every Major's Terrible Title-text: Someday I'll be the first to get a Ph. D in 'Undeclared'. Comic Explanation Stats: This comic has been referenced 139 times, representing 0.0978% of referenced xkcds. xkcd.com xkcd...
Emma Watson "He For She" Speech	3 - I think the majority of feminism (people like Emma Watson) have the stance of wanting to get rid of the stereotype of women being helpless and men being aggressive. I don't think you have seen the He for She video then. Everything about it is cha...

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[–]SEXM0NEYPOWER 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Rhyagella 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the big question is why "feminist dance therapy" is considered less valuable than electrical engineering as a degree.

Despite how much the EEs love to complain, the EE coursework (and I'm speaking from experience here) isn't actually difficult outside of being very tedious busy work. Beyond that, the theoretical aspect of it is just utterly formulaic. You don't actually need to think about the implications of spectral theory to use a table of Fourier transforms, and as long as you keep your tables handy and know how to follow the step-by-step procedure for generating systems of equations for circuits, you'll never have any real problems getting through the courses.

But dancing? That's fucking hard. You have to practice daily and stay in top physical shape to even be able to start with the coursework (assuming that such a thing as "feminist dance therapy" actually exists at the college level). The "feminist dance therapy" majors could easily go do EE if they wanted to, but I'd like to see the average EE student try to do anything even remotely like dancing.

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[+]buttertarts123 points 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Eh? In my School boys and girls attended the same lessons.

What you're taking about is a common feminist idea, but it isn't a real thing that actually happens.

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Title	Damn Right
Author	Gocountgrainsofsand
Upvotes	3752
Comments	363
Date	December 31, 2016 9:54 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5lbws9/damn_right/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/damn-right.934834 https://theredarchive.com/post/934834

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