This is awesome. Feminists are starting to question whether or not the Men's Rights Movement is actually behind #WomenAgainstFeminism.

jpflathead · 2014-07-30T05:42:39+00:00

Women who are against feminism are:

young
ignorant
self-loathing internalized misogynists
trying to suck up to men
parroting male talking points
dumb
actually are feminists just don't know it.
unable to attract anyone to them based on their own intelligence, charm and wit (added after watching Lizz Winstead discuss why women might support MRAs (http://www.msnbc.com/now-with-alex-wagner/watch/an-international-conference-on-men-s-rights--296068675959))

Women who are against feminism are not

educated
rational
capable agents
able to form and express their genuine and informed expressions
observant
who happen to disagree with certain principles of Feminist Theory and Behavior

This isn't a hateful, misogynist, condescending, patronizing, disempowering, disenfranchising, disrespectful, bossy, (ultimately regressively patriarchal) view of women. It's just a feminist analysis and critique of women.

Deansdale · 2014-07-30T06:57:22+00:00

Who's really behind #WomenAgainstFeminism? Their message sounds a lot like men

Logical reasoning and forming your own opinion sound like things only men would do? Well, isn't that condescending to women?

kerminsr · 2014-07-30T07:35:54+00:00

So in response to women saying that feminism denies their agency, telling them that they're not responsible for their own actions, making them out to always be victims at the hands of men:

"This is pretty uniquely a male thing" O'Neill adds, "That's why I think it's written by men."

And the irony is completely lost on them.

God forbid women come to their own conclusions after weighing the evidence.

It probably only takes one visit to /r/mensrights to figure out that feminists are lying about us all being rabid misogynists. Then they might wonder: "What else are they lying about?" Then they finally start applying some critical thinking...Before you know it, they're posting selfies holding signs stating why they don't need feminism.

Methodius_ · 2014-07-30T05:24:29+00:00

This is modern feminism 101. When in doubt, blame the patriarchy, men themselves, or both.

People have already suggested that these women were simply doing it so that men would like them. Or so that their boyfriends would be happy. And that the "people holding the camera" were men.

At the end of the day, they're going to try to come up with a billion different reasons to disprove that there are actually women out there of their own free will against feminism. Let them. It just makes them seem that much more crazy.

bougabouga · 2014-07-30T06:27:01+00:00

She is shooting herself and her hole movement in the foot , this is only reinforcing the stereotype that feminists blame men for everything , even things they had nothing to do with.

We should never fall for this guys , never blame women of feminism for the boys and men that don't identify with our movement. We must simply keep making rational and educated arguments and we can win these battles sooner.

HankSought · 2014-07-30T05:11:56+00:00

Are you even surprised?

Terry O'Neill is the head of NOW. She's probably the most powerful and politically influential feminist right now. Of course she's going to doubt that any woman could even conceive of life without feminism. For her there has to be another reason, one that involves men at the root of it.

YM_Industries · 2014-07-30T07:53:55+00:00

"I don't need feminism because they reject femininity and try to feminize men, and demand equality and ask for special treatment."

Even if this girl really believes this, is this such a big injustice to this girl that she just had to take to social media to have her views heard? Seems pretty unlikely.

This woman cannot even imagine someone caring about an issue that doesn't directly affect them. How self-centered can you get?

mister_selfdestruct · 2014-07-30T08:30:42+00:00

Misandry, if you don't know, is a common term used by men's rights groups to describe men's discrimination.

Oh wow how far can their denial go? or are they just plain dumb? The term misandry is in the dictionary, its not some men's rights invention.

Sorry, for oppressing you with our proper use of real words! cowers in shame in front of feminist goddess

Skyorange · 2014-07-30T04:46:49+00:00

Well, the pictures this author posted of women holding anti-feminist signs certainly had what appeared to be typical MRA rhetoric. That doesn't mean however, that some cabal of men decided to fabricate the whole #WomenAgainstFeminism movement. Much the same way men subscribe to feminist ideas, women are bound to subscribe to MRA ideas.

Why is it unfathomable that women should become alienated from a movement that has largely become radicalized in recent years? Instead of accepting a potential shortcoming in the feminist movement, this author has decided to turn it into a conspiracy theory.

intensely_human · 2014-07-30T17:32:50+00:00

It's actually #MenInVeryWellDoneDragAgainstFeminism

beatbox_pantomime · 2014-07-30T13:25:54+00:00

It was initially rage-inducing to see all the feminist excuses as to why on earth I might 'betray my own gender', but every new article/post against this movement just reinforces why so many women are rejecting feminism in the first place. The fact that they don't even recognize their hypocrisy isn't surprising. It's just sad.

Keep alienating your bread and butter, feminism. Your exiled are welcome here.

sidewalkchalked · 2014-07-30T13:51:12+00:00

Is it well written? Is it persuasive? It must have been written by men.

Good going Feminists. You're eating yourselves.

By the way, if you go to that tumblr, there are a lot of diverse reasons on there. The feminists cherry picked not only the most attractive girls (only pretty girls go against feminism because they get advantages from das patriarchy) and the ones who used arguments similar to the phrasing used by mens rights people (because men wrote all those posters).

Do they really believe that women are so weak and un-creative that they were posed like dolls by men in all those photos? And that men the word over collaborated to make their kept women write these messages and pose with them?

This is ridiculous. They're actually making the most misogynistic assumptions ever just because women are daring to think for themselves. Who is the patriarchy now?

Degraine · 2014-07-30T05:05:07+00:00

Finally, finally, the right time to link this.

Also this, courtesy of SYABM.

ajfirecracker · 2014-07-30T09:37:38+00:00

I noticed that in closing she says feminism needs to support the right of these women to come to their own conclusions if they do so 'genuinely' and if it's 'legit' and they have 'really' done it on their own.

Mitschu · 2014-07-30T16:48:26+00:00

But is the anti-feminist blog #WomenAgainstFeminism really just dudes in disguise?

[...]

You see those detailed, fairly well-constructed thought exercises against feminism and you can't help but wonder, is this for real?

You heard it from feminists first, folks. Detailed and well-constructed arguments? Must have been a man who really wrote it.

I love how they ironically include a picture of Hannah (one of the Honeybadgers from AVFM, and IMO the best of the bunch at independent research) right after that statement.

Hannah, making intelligent arguments? But she's a woman! Are we sure she doesn't have a man thinking her thoughts for her?

I also love how they conflate superficial knowledge of the MHRM with explicit membership with the MHRM. "You used an argument that MRAs sometimes also use? You must be a closet MRA!"

By the same reasoning, anyone who has ever used the word "bourgeois" to describe someone is a communist. And God forbid you pull out the old "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" argument, because that definitely means you're Jewish.

VagrantDreamer · 2014-07-30T07:19:36+00:00

To be fair, many #WomenAgainstFeminism are probably MRAs...

ezetemp · 2014-07-30T07:21:48+00:00

To determine when your ideas are getting opposed by other people that don't agree with your point of view or sock puppets repeating talking points isn't always that easy. The problem, of course, being that either way, your ideas will be the common denominator, either directly or indirectly, which means that either way you're going to get a high level of overlap among any opposition.

Analysis of things like the use of the word 'misandry' is just idiotic; there is basically no other useful word for the phenomena and it perfectly mirrors the widely propagated 'misogyny' term. Opponents of your ideas would use that, and it does not indicate that they subscribe to MRA ideas, only that they oppose feminist ones.

Analysis of specific points would be more useful. If they are the same and continuously repeated, it can indicate that the opposition is of a specific and coherent ideological movement. But that still won't let you separate pure ideological disagreements from sock puppeting. Ideas that can be considered discriminating can be opposed from multiple points of view, for example from humanist egalitarian perspectives, from the perspective of victims, or from the perspective of those who feel themselves unfairly privileged. If it's opposition to your ideas you'll likely find a mix of those. Women against feminism seem to have a fair mix.

Analysis of point of view is even better. If the opposition is arguing from how various ideas affect them directly it's a strong indication that they feel personally about the issue. A lot of the women against feminism do that, often expressing offence at how they feel feminism diminishes them.

Finally, analysis of pure disagreements with the opponent you suspect of being behind the sock puppeting is the most useful way to determine a lack of connections. And frankly, while the women against feminism are certainly appreciated for the possibility that they'll be able to instil some self-examination among feminists, the fact is that some of them expound some reactionary ideas that many MRA's will find patently offensive. Few MRA's would appreciate the 'men should take care of me and be chivalrous and real men' sentiment that gets expressed in some instances.

So as a whole, pretty much everything about the women against feminism phenomena indicates that it has only feminism in common and very little would indicate any significant consistent connection with men's rights.

Of course, that won't stop any true to colours feminist from blaming it all on men. After all, that's part of feminism.

Truthbt0ld · 2014-07-30T12:53:53+00:00

Feminists are starting to question weather women can think for themselves. Here's tom with the weather.

jcea_ · 2014-07-30T06:39:14+00:00

To be fair judybitch is not particularly helping that outlook.

Turns out Judgy Bitch is behind #WomenAgainstFeminism. Here is an interview of her on HLN (CNN)

Spoiler: shes not actually behind it but cnn sure thinks so. nor does JB seem to disabuse them of that.

SoldierofNod · 2014-07-30T12:29:57+00:00

It's incredibly misogynistic for feminism to say that no woman could be against it unless a man was behind them...

DavidByron2 · 2014-07-30T16:56:08+00:00

No, they are saying men are behind it, because they can't understand the distinction between MRA and male, or feminist and female. That's a quality of a hate movement that they need a bright line between the people they hate (men) and the people they accept (women), and that the idea that anyone would cross that ideological line by being a woman who was against them (or a man for them), doesn't make sense to them on an emotional level.

redgreenyellowblu · 2014-07-30T06:45:38+00:00

It's so paranoid, like the people that are convinced there are reptilians controlling the world.

jcea_ · 2014-07-30T06:46:45+00:00

To be fair judybitch is not particularly helping that outlook.

Turns out Judgy Bitch is behind #WomenAgainstFeminism. Here is an interview of her on HLN (CNN)

NP link because the auto moderator is set up badly and is removing links to our own sub

Spoiler: shes not actually behind it but cnn sure thinks so. nor does JB seem to disabuse them of that.

Sir_Fancy_Pants · 2014-07-30T11:24:49+00:00

its a wonderful artistic piece,

a handful of individuals stating why they "don't need feminism"

feminists respond actually doing the work for them and showing everyone exactly why they don't need feminism.

i do love how militant feminists still think that what they approve of or think has some kind of value. its great

feminist is akin to "conspiracy theorist" in terms of credability and social status.

good job ladies lol

MidNiteR32 · 2014-07-30T12:13:27+00:00

Gotta love the argument from ignorance. "Women against Feminism must have been created by men, even though I have no evidence."

toblotron · 2014-07-30T12:17:06+00:00

Imagine a KKK member talking about anti-racists;

"You see? Everything they write is about those evil negroes; Don't kill ém, Don't enslave them, Treat them as humans... - taking their perspective, instead that of their own proud white race. Their material must all be written by negroes."

Godspiral · 2014-07-30T12:52:22+00:00

If there was a group "Aryan Germans against Naziism", they would be attacked with "Some of their words sound much like jews."

sillymod · 2014-07-30T13:53:04+00:00

Freudian slip much?

"I didn't feel like a feminist," she says. "I felt like a hard worker."

toysjoe · 2014-07-30T14:03:34+00:00

Feminist logic: the only people that can speak out against the problem are people that are affected by it.

So people who aren't homeless can't possibly understand the issues homeless people face.

So people who weren't Jews can't possibly understand the pain the Jews were suffering in Nazi Germany.

So people who weren't affected by an earthquake or hurricane can't possibly feel sympathy for those that are affected.

So people who don't have cancer can't possibly advocate for people with cancer.

So men can't possibly advocate for feminism. If women can't be MRAs, can men be feminists? They can understand men who side with feminism but they can't understand when women side with MHRM.

Also, this quote

"Even if this girl really believes this, is this such a big injustice to this girl that she just had to take to social media to have her views heard? Seems pretty unlikely."

MRAs' complaints are about very minor injustices. Feminism tackles major social issues like men taking too much room on the train when they sit with their legs open.

intensely_human · 2014-07-30T17:38:23+00:00

You see those detailed, fairly well-constructed thought exercises against feminism and you can't help but wonder, is this for real?

This woman really doesn't have much faith in her own sex, does she?

TheThng · 2014-07-30T11:38:45+00:00

gotta have SOMEONE to blame. Cuz apparently women can't think for themselves.

baskandpurr · 2014-07-30T12:27:03+00:00

Being cynical, I do wonder why the #WomenAgainstFeminism all seem to be prettier than the #NotAllWomen. I wonder if it's really about chivalry and gynocentrism. If you are pretty and you live in an equalised culture then you are losing out on a lot of benefits. I'm not even suggesting that's wrong, its a particular way to do things. As long as the rights and responsibilities balance everyone should be as free to choose as possible.

I summon /u/DulcineaIsAWhore, see what the word is on this.

notnotnotfred · 2014-07-30T12:49:42+00:00

well, uh...http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2c4xay/womenagainstfeminism_sign_request/

da1inchpunch · 2014-07-30T12:56:23+00:00

the creator

TracyMorganFreeman · 2014-07-30T13:14:34+00:00

So some women feel feminism doesn't represent their experiences and goals well and so distances themselves from it to speaking on their own behalf, as feminism claiming to while not accurately doing so.

Feminists respond by...concluding women wouldn't feel that way.

sizzletron · 2014-07-30T14:40:58+00:00

Paranoia will destroy ya...

sizzletron · 2014-07-30T15:12:20+00:00

Ahh feminism, just won't stop hogging the mic.

Lucifirius · 2014-07-30T18:04:58+00:00

Would it be possible to start posting screenshots of radfem blogs/sites? I would rather not give them the views.

a0i · 2014-07-30T23:54:30+00:00

I love watching Feminists implode trying to wrap their minds around women wanting nothing to do with their cult.

HQR3 · 2014-07-30T12:28:33+00:00

A segment just appeared on NBC (8:20 am EST) about the WAF phenomenon. (Of course, they discussed this with two feminists.) But most important they just asked viewers to comment on WAF at the hashtag #OrangeRoom. Feel free to jump on it, folks. DO IT NOW.

slideforlife · 2014-07-30T12:30:45+00:00

TOO FUNNY!!

notdomoduro · 2014-07-30T12:58:19+00:00

Suppose the Men's Rights Movement was behind #WomenAgainstFeminism... what difference would that make?

sizzletron · 2014-07-30T14:43:08+00:00

Right here, this is what the echo chamber looks like. Wow such skeptic...

"I don't need feminism because they reject femininity and try to feminize men, and demand equality and ask for special treatment."

Even if this girl really believes this, is this such a big injustice to this girl that she just had to take to social media to have her views heard? Seems pretty unlikely.

Capitalsman · 2014-07-30T23:08:43+00:00

I figured it was either genuine or another thing started by 4chan to piss them off.

Jonathan_Taylor · 2014-07-30T23:56:13+00:00

The trend of Feminists wondering whether MRAs are behind every criticism being launched at them will only make them lose ground and us gain it.

hereisyourpaper · 2014-07-31T03:00:31+00:00

So they tried the usual tactic of claiming they were just ignorant women. Now they've moved onto the next tactic of claiming evil misogynists are up to no good as usual.

Ma99ie · 2014-07-31T15:41:28+00:00

You've exactly demonstrated my point. Your entire focus is on America, as if it's the only place in the world. There's still a lot of inequality in the world due to views on men and women indifferent cultures, religions, societies, countries, internet culture. It's still very evident there are big problems.

Don't blame women for your problems, where are you meeting these irrational people that want to push down men? Equality means getting rid of the damaging views thy affect men and women, it's just mostly focused on women because for a long time women have had to just catch up. And in many first world countries it's been a lot of progress so far.

I just feel like it's a bunch of men complaining about all hear feminists they seem to speak about as if it's a stereotype instead of actually educating themselves. Most people are fighting against all gender based double standards including the ones detrimental to men. But men's rights seriously just bitches all day that women created all the problems themselves, all the problems for men, and that feminism is something that it isn't.

It just really gives it away that I've mentioned other places in the world, and you bring it back to American and the same two damn points that seem like prerecord responses: salary and circumcision. Get over it and actually be active towards equality. Bitching about how feminism ruins society and women are at fault is bullshit.

Title	This is awesome. Feminists are starting to question whether or not the Men's Rights Movement is actually behind #WomenAgainstFeminism.
Author	Ma99ie
Upvotes	282
Comments	174
Date	July 30, 2014 4:23 AM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2c4276/this-is-awesome-feminists-are-starting-to-question/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-is-awesome-feminists-are-starting-to-question.1619702 https://theredarchive.com/post/1619702

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