Why marry a RPer? | PurplePillDebate

Titaniu · 2016-08-22T13:26:15+00:00

EDIT: ITT ~ LOTS of rp missing the point and think I'm making a serious argument about marriage. Here's a hint guys: all the things you guys project...

[–]needsomehelp3211Red Pill 55 points56 points57 points 9 years ago* (373 children) | Copy Link

Honestly, you probably shouldn't marry a Redpiller. The optimal strategy for women in this modern society is to have fun in her 20s and then settle down with some grateful beta computer programmer type who will give you the financial security and the quieter/calmer life for your 30s and up.

As long as he's not totally grotesque and you stay decently in shape, you'll both somewhat enjoy sex once in a while. You'll have cute kids. That'll keep him pacified and docile.

This is gonna rustle a lot of men's jimmies to read, but it's true. Women benefit fantastically from the alpha fux / beta bux arrangement. Why the goddamn would a woman want to marry a RedPiller? He's not gonna treat you like a queen. He won't tolerate you getting fat. You won't have the peace of mind of knowing he's too unattractive/introverted to go out and cheat, as is the case with the beta.

[–]deskgrunt88Your moralistic outrage means nothing 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (291 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 26 points27 points28 points 9 years ago (246 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (36 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I take it that you mean male perception is more accurate for certain things that more men perceive and female perception is more accurate for certain things that more women perceive - correct?

I can say the same thing to a man and to a woman, and often (not always, of course) both will hear something different. Because our perspectives and experiences and what we pay attention to and what we are concerned about can be so fucking different (despite those who apparently hate the potential for dissonance there and profess that "everyone is really all the same" to feel less anxious).

Being a man, I find it's easier to make accurate descriptions and explanations to other men. We can often get those shared communications because we both are coming at the topic from the same place. Are they objectively "more accurate"? I don't even know how you could assess that. But they are definitely "more accurate" (in the sense that we hear something useful and applicable) for us.

That said, sometimes it takes someone all the way on the outside to see certain inherent blind spots, but that kind of objectivity often requires a commitment to other and a lack of self-consciousness that can be hard to achieve. Which is why I've always counseled couples - especially long-time couples - to avoid coaching each other. I have rarely seen it work well...

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 18 points19 points20 points 9 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

isnt it obvious that the percoeptions of menwho are good with womenare more accurate?

I'm not sure. Objectively, there is inherent bias on both sides. Also "men who are good with women" doesn't inherently = intentional assholes. If you ask a women who she sleeps with and she says "well not an asshole" she's likely denying/downplaying any instances she herself has experienced and/or observed. Just as if you ask a ladies man who women sleep with and he says "assholes" it's likely he's denying/downplaying the women who have rejected him and/or who he's observed being rejected by assholes.

I will admit I am viewing this from a personal bias, because I've never been into assholes (ofc we are also assuming that we have a similar definition of what "asshole" means in this discussion). That being said, I'm not willing to give terps the benefit of the doubt when they say silly things like all women want assholes because I can imagine they are using confirmation as well.

I would assume men who are sexually successful with women as well as women who sleep with a high number of male partners are probably the best at accurately determining this. Ofc if those men and those women go for one type, it would be less so.

youlll never be in the room with a woman you just fucked and listen to her cooly call her BF or husband and lie, let alone be there 10 times with 10 different women and see the same scenes play out

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Who is lying about what?

[–]aznphenix 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sen--sen 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]footballma56Aggressively Average Looking 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sen--sen -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]ThatGamer707 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]poppyblu 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]poppyblu 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin✡️🐈✡️ the purring jew 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]InBaggingArea 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]poppyblu 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]poppyblu 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Your experience of one

My experience is one experience of a man. I've had many experiences of women, though. More than any straight woman, for sure.

Likewise, you probably are better qualified than most to comment on male behavior in the bedroom.

Why do I get the feeling though that you only replied to this comment so you could have an excuse to brag about how many women you've supposedly banged? Yawn.

Yep, one of those damned if you do damned if you don't arguments.

I brought up my experience to illustrate that while you represent a data point of one, I bring several data points. This has nothing to do with bragging, it's just a fact that I've seen more diverse female behavior than most straight women. And even gay or bi women only know how women behave around gay or bi women, which still isn't the same as how they behave around men (to hear them tell it - source: my wife is bi and a lot of my friends are bi).

[–] poppyblu 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes, I know, men's experiences/ opinions always trump women's.

Let's return to the original comment:

Sublimemongrel said "This is what you guys tell yourself but outside of some women in college, most women aren't interested in jumping into bed with guys who are intentional assholes. Nor are they so into doing that they'd cheat."

To which atlas b said "this is not the experience of men who are "good with women", this is your perception of female behavior as a woman."

So either you're agreeing with atlas and saying that men (who are "good" with women") have a better perception of what women want than women do, or you're claiming to have evidence because, what you're an asshole yourself and you still fuck lots of women?

Or you just skipped reading the full thread and decided you'd just brag about your skillz anyway?

A data point of one?? Let's say I had been with as many men as you have women? Does that make my "experience" (opinion) equally valid?

Just more proof that RP promotes confirmation bias of the worst kind.

[–] nomdplume Former Alpha 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

So either you're agreeing with atlas and saying that men (who are "good" with women") have a better perception of what women want than women do

I am - it seems entirely obvious that men who are good with women would know more about what it takes to get a woman into bed than most women do, since they are the ones actually getting women into bed.

you're claiming to have evidence because, what you're an asshole yourself and you still fuck lots of women?

I would say that an asshole who fucks lots of women would probably provide a pretty good perspective. Of course, the women he fucks probably don't think of him as an asshole, or they don't care, and everyone probably wouldn't even agree on whether or not he actually is an asshole, given the subjectivity of that label and all.

Same could be said about a non-asshole that fucks lots of women.

I would listen to a guy who knows how to make that shit happen with lots of women over the opinion of one woman as to how she thinks women respond to things based on her own experience.

Or you just skipped reading the full thread and decided you'd just brag about your skillz anyway?

JFC, I'm debating the concept, and telling you why I wouldn't necessarily favor your opinion about over mine, since I actually have the breadth of experience that you lack.

You are debating based on conjecture; I have actually been there.

Let's say I had been with as many men as you have women? Does that make my "experience" (opinion) equally valid?

No, FFS. How are you not getting this?

Your experience with men gives you the ability to speak more broadly about how men behave when they are with a woman. I know how I behave, but I have no definitive proof of how other men behave, so I would absolutely agree that a woman who knows how to get what she wants out of many men is more qualified than I when it comes to assessing trends in men's behavior.

Just more proof that RP promotes confirmation bias of the worst kind.

Funny that - you think that, because you are a woman, it's safe to assume that all women are like you and so you know how women are with men better than the men who are actually with those women. I would say that is some serious bias on your part...

[–] poppyblu 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] nomdplume Former Alpha 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MehrunePeter Pan Extraordinaire 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (109 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (99 children) | Copy Link

[–]holyjesusitsahorseA Whiter Shade Of Pale 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (28 children) | Copy Link

Yes, men that other men perceive as assholes are often very confident and extroverted. They're socially dominant with other men. This doesn't mean that these men are assholes to women.

Most of the men I've dated are men that nerdy dudes would call assholes. My best friend, who is a pillar of support in my life and one of the most amazing men I've ever met, would be referred to as an asshole. Why? Because he thinks they're boring and makes no effort to engage about computer programming or whatever. It's harsh, but he's never rude -- just detached. That combined with the fact that he's a jock, has been in the army and is good with women is enough to make many other men think he's a dick. Again, he's not.

Can safely say I've never dated anyone who was an asshole to me, although I think one person was incredibly abrasive to people that he found 'stupid' and it was a bit uncalled for. Still generally a good dude.

[–]OncleJulian 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

Yes, men that other men perceive as assholes are often very confident and extroverted. They're socially dominant with other men. This doesn't mean that these men are assholes to women.

No. What we mean by assholes is, guy who treats girl like shit and still gets laid. That is an asshole. I don't go calling guys who are very confident and extroverted as assholes, dude.

Most of the men I've dated are men that nerdy dudes would call assholes. My best friend, who is a pillar of support in my life and one of the most amazing men I've ever met, would be referred to as an asshole. Why? Because he thinks they're boring and makes no effort to engage about computer programming or whatever. It's harsh, but he's never rude -- just detached. That combined with the fact that he's a jock, has been in the army and is good with women is enough to make many other men think he's a dick. Again, he's not.

Why do you assume we are nerds? O.o And seems like you are defending your alpha boyfriends and hookups, which is what trp says women will do for their high smv men ahahaha.

[–]InBaggingArea 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

[–]InBaggingArea 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] InBaggingArea 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 2 points 3 points 4 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Depressed people do not know they are depressed, quite often. Your worldview is pathologically negative and you're really out of touch with reality. Something is wrong with you, mentally -- it's why you drive everybody here totally bonkers.

Yeah, something is wrong with me. I'm not an 8/10 alpha male with chiseled good-looks and a body that could make a greek god weep in shame. That is what's wrong with me :/

As for mentally speaking, I'm pretty good. I don't talk to girls, I don't interact with girls or look at them unless they the women I befriended in college and in high school, and my life has improved massively ever since I stopped interacting with women. I get the occasional pang for sex from time to time, but then I pull out my hand lotion and my 10000 terrabytes of porn and I furiously masturbate away the sexual frustration :)

I'm not going to argue with you. If you want someone to argue you with you -- reply to somebody else's posts. I can't argue with people that I feel this much pity for.

Wow, I am such a beta that you even feel pity for me? :&

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 2 points 3 points 4 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Again, I'm not going to argue with you but -- inability to engage in intimacy with others is generally a sign of trauma and disorder. You might think you're good, but...

I have many guy friends I have long, deeply emotional talks with. Same goes for my college female friends. I don't interact with women because women are emotional hoes for beta bux(like myself) and I can't and I don't want to deal with anymore of that vampiric shit that women are.

Women take way too much time to get to know and to spend time with, and for what? Most of the time even if you go for a woman in your smv or lower she's doing it for attention and validation and won't put out, waste of fucking time. Porn doesn't give me blue balls :)

Have you ever considered therapy, medication -- something other than groups that promote hatred and argumentativeness on the internet? Or even just...look, you sound so hateful that's the thing. Towards everyone. And no one is trying to hurt you, they're just trying to live their lives. Everything, to you, is a personal slight and your ego gets bruised. Your scales of meaningfulness are so, so off-kilter.

I talked to a bunch of therapists and they all agreed with me on the natue of women and how bad it is for young men nowadays lol. For real, it was hilarious when I was talking about all of this and the dudes were agreeing with me.

I don't feel pity for you because you're beta. I feel pity for you because you're a human who's in so much pain that he can't even recognise it.

Yes ,sexual frustration sucks ass :/

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] OncleJulian 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]InBaggingArea 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]InBaggingArea 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatGamer707 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sardonis70 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Can safely say I've never dated anyone who was an asshole to me

That's the crux of it though. Just because YOU don't see him as an "asshole" doesn't mean other MEN don't. Why? We don't judge other men on the same criteria you do, and as you explained above we tend to call men "assholes" for many reasons completely unrelated to how they "treat" women. And, in that respect, RP is right: "assholes" do often get laid like tile. Are those men "assholes" to the women they are banging? The only people that know is him and his partner, but that won't stop other men from labeling him an asshole and coming to the conclusion that being an asshole might get them laid.

I've come to the conclusion there is a sub-set of women that actually seek out assholes, but they PREFER those men are assholes to everyone but them, and sometimes they manage to find exactly that. However, most often I'd suspect a man that is an asshole to anyone will be an asshole to everyone.

And yes, it takes one to know one. I'll never deny I'm an asshole. Sometimes my wife even calls me an asshole. (as she smirks and smacks my arm) But I'm a fair and equal opportunity asshole, and I learned through the 'sphere that one of my biggest problems in my first marriage was I shielded my ex from my assholean behavior. This time around, I allow some of the asshole to shine in my marriage, but by and large I still "pull my punches" with the wife. She's earned a little bit of preferential treatment. ;-)

[–]Mehrune 12 points12 points12 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am a 'slut'. I have never intentionally fucked a man who's an asshole. That kind of thing is just a huge, huge turn-off.

Good, not a fan of assholes myself regardless of gender. I'm a male 'slut' and for me it's mostly physical appearance followed by intelligence that I'm attracted to. I am not an asshole...I'm just not a pussy. I don't take shit from people, however I don't give people shit either. I treat everyone with respect unless they have given me a reason to do otherwise.

Ime, sexually 'liberal' girls are not all about dickheads. Insecure girls who are sleeping around to prove themselves and affirm their desirability do tend to be, though.

Bravo, capitalising on the insecurities of a vulnerable group. Admirable.

When did I say I capitalized on their vulnerability? I'm not an asshole I'm just not a pushover, there's a fine line between them.

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (37 children) | Copy Link

[–]sardonis70 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

The problem is in the way that you guys define what it means to be 'not a pushover'. It's far too extreme, generally speaking.

Well when you consider that most men that find their way to the 'sphere were probably HUGE "pushovers", is it really a surprise many overcompensate early on and have to work at it a bit to find the balance?

It sounds easy in theory to just tell a guy to stop being a doormat, but actually putting it into practice is an entirely different thing. In order to stop being a doormat, they'll need to learn to be assertive and maintain their boundaries, and its damned hard to learn that properly while attempting to "reign it in" to some form of "appropriate" behavior. I'm not saying it can't be done, but I highly doubt most men (or people in general) can pull it off. Most folks go from one extreme to the other, and HOPEFULLY settle back down into a healthier balance after the fact.

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

It does make sense and I think some reds, like yourself, are very measured. You take what works and leave what doesn't. But for bitter young men, surrounding themselves with a group of other bitter young men seems...more likely to entrench bitterness and affirm a really negative worldview.

Look at people like OncleJulian. Or just the way most reds here respond to others -- the sheer veiled aggression and inability to be good faith. These are little boys whose minds have been twisted and it looks like a lot of 'em aren't coming back, to me.

Imo, intimate partnership is one of those things in life that just makes the whole thing a bit better. It's a balm against other wounds, you get so much support and enjoyment out of it. It makes me sad that this sphere is ruining intimate partnership for many people by telling them that marriage is evil and sex sans feelings is the goal.

[–]sardonis70 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

It makes me sad that this sphere is ruining intimate partnership for many people by telling them that marriage is evil and sex sans feelings is the goal.

I get that, but the flip side is any man in that mental state isn't in any shape to have and keep a LTR anyway.

When I first found the 'sphere, I was mad. Shit I was straight up angry. I got over it. My hope is the vast majority of young men that find their way to the 'sphere ALSO get over it eventually. If not? Well, larger issues are at play IMO.

the sheer veiled aggression and inability to be good faith. These are little boys whose minds have been twisted and it looks like a lot of 'em aren't coming back, to me.

First off, men tend to talk to other men in "aggressive" style, especially when discussing heated topics. My best male friends in the world talk similarly in person when we hash out things like politics. Its men being men. (maybe particular types of men being particular types of men, LOL. But, they are a "type" I'm familiar with)

Second, one of the best ways to get rid of pent up aggression is to vent, and there's plenty of that going on in the 'sphere. Sure, some guys don't seem to get past it at all, but like I said above, to me that indicates other possible issues with things like anger management, not so much that RP causes men to become and stay angry/bitter.

But honestly? Marriage in the West isn't too far from evil, depending on how you look at it. Its certainly not a good deal for men as it exists today, unless they marry into specific circumstances such as being the lower earner or having a rock solid pre-nup in place. (which can STILL be thrown out of court as I understand it...)

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

No, I'm familiar with standard male aggression. I've dealt with all sorts in my time, haha. Generally, it's not veiled. It's direct. The reason why the men here talk in such a veiled way is because of entrenched bitterness, imo. It's a subtle difference in speech pattern, but it's definitely there. It's not an open aggression that spirals away -- it's compressed and it circles back in on itself.

They're not 'venting' and getting rid of rage. Many of them are just here to endlessly stoke their rage.

I'm not sure that marriage is an 'evil'. It might not be beneficial to you in a material way (I think it is in ways that can't be measured -- partnership & the emotional resonance that has in one's life) but it's not evil. I'm not sure that viewing marriage through that kind of a lens, 'what can it do for me?!' is the best way to view marriage. Imho, this is selfish and one of the qualities that you're supposed to bring to marriage is sacrifice and selflessness.

Too few people know how to do something without wanting to get something out of it these days. The benefits are tangential.

From this perspective, marriage has always been a poor deal for women. Single women have better life outcomes than married women. It's the opposite for single vs married men.

[–] sardonis70 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

"evil" is a perspective though. I'm married for the second time, so obviously I agree with you that there are benefits. Understand that I'm actually a supporter of LTRs and nuclear families, but our current environment forces me to NOT support my beliefs there and instead warn men of the hazards of becoming legally married.

The concept of marriage to me is mutually beneficial to men, women, AND society. Unfortunately, the LEGAL state of marriage is currently a shit show, and there is little incentive for a man to risk half his current and future earnings for what little he seemingly gets in return.

This time around I did my best to limit my financial risks, and since my wife and I were both previously divorced, we went in eyes wide open and honest with each other about what we expected from the relationship, and what would be detrimental to it. I was clear up front I would not allow myself to be trapped in a crappy marriage again, and she completely agreed with me. That being said, I can't imagine there are many completely honest and open discussions of such before the ceremony in most cases. Lord knows we didn't have one my first time around!

They're not 'venting' and getting rid of rage. Many of them are just here to endlessly stoke their rage.

I fully admit some men are indeed stuck there. But to me that is NOT the fault of RP, it is an issue within those individual men that they can't let go of the anger and bitterness and grow past it. If it wasn't RP they were "angry" about, it would be something else.

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] sardonis70 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I just think it makes the anger worse and that without RP, these people might have vented irl like normal folk and gotten the fuck over it. And maybe gotten out of their own heads a little.

There are VERY few spaces in real life a man can vent about this stuff. Even among other men, the fear is real that any such "misogyny" will be met with horrified looks and vehement protection of "the way it is" from those men. The funny thing about that is after finding the 'sphere, I opened up to a few friends about this stuff, and was pleasantly surprised to find them mostly in agreement. Several of my male friends are currently living "purple" marriages because I found my way to MMSL after my first divorce.

The internet allows men to fully vent without much fear of repercussions, so you tend to see it at its worst. I simply don't believe that RP is at fault, as there are plenty of people in the world that seem hell bent on being angry all the time, and they don't know anything about the 'sphere.

I've seen the stats on marriage and happiness. I honestly don't know why women tend to be LESS happy when married, but I'd suspect in many cases they have unreasonable expectations of what the marriage and her husband will add to her life. I can tell you with full honesty that I am MUCH happier as a married man. I sincerely hope my wife is ALSO happier being a married woman, but truly don't know her mind and can only go on how she responds to me.

The thing to really consider: when it comes to men and marriage, it isn't all about financial ruin. Losing access to children is heart wrenching, and in all but the rarest cases the man is usually forced to become a part-time parent, every other weekend and maybe a few weekdays a month. When my first marriage imploded, that was my fear and greatest anguish. I simply couldn't stand the idea of not seeing my children every day. You can always make more money.

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I honestly think you're rare re: wanting to see your kids every day. In divorce situations, most fathers want that kind of partial weekend custody. They never ask for full custody. Or arrange joint custody that's more flexible than weekends.

I get that losing your kids is heartbreaking and I do think custody laws are problematic.

I honestly think the fact that women are a lot happier without men (even without marriage, women tend to be happier single than coupled) says a lot about gender dynamics and who gets more out of a relationship. If men are getting such a raw deal, why are they the ones who need this structure and benefit so much from it in terms of emotional outlay? Why are women so drained by it?

The men around here seem to have had some very high and off kilter expectations re: women that have made them very unhappy in relationships. Expectations being off doesn't explain away this happiness gap, imo.

[–] UnbelievableTeknique 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Happiness has nothing to do with how much you are gaining or how much you are giving. Absolutely nothing. In this modern society I am not surprised when anyone says they aren't happy because it simply doesn't come naturally to most people to learn to cope with modern civilisation by themselves. Men are far better at this generally because we are more self-determining than women are.

So if this were the case (which it is) I wouldn't be surprised that married men are generally happier than married women, because generally married men have their shit together better than unmarried men, and they can look at everything they've made and worked for with satisfaction. Women don't derive the same satisfaction from the kind of work that a man is suited for, i.e. provision and family building. What other options do women have though? They almost always have to work and often the ones that don't work lack the maturity to find something else worthwhile to do and so just sit at home pushing buttons to make machines do the chores for them. What options are there exactly for women to find satisfaction in the work that they had previously always done before modern civilisation? There's hardly anything left for them and they're too busy working to actually look for it themselves.

Do I think most men aren't able to keep them happy? Yeah, obviously, but that says a lot in itself. It's the man's job to help her cope with modern society, and this is an almost impossible task for the average man. What exactly are the wives giving to the man? Fucking nothing. When women start getting unhappy in a relationship they stop giving anything to the man themselves, and it wasn't ever more than what the man was giving her in the first place anyway.

It's not really about expectations, everyone has expectations, but it's the inability and refusal to learn to cope with failed expectations and seek your own satisfaction that makes women unhappy. It's a phenomenally large logical leap to say that, because married women are more unhappy than unmarried women that it must be because they're giving more in the relationship. There are a thousand other potential theories that make much more sense, but I think you're clouded by your own personal bias. In any healthy relationship the man always has to give more than the woman gives, because otherwise the woman just leaves or the relationship stops functioning properly. Married men often run out of things to give their wives and so the women become unsatisfied.

Men get a raw deal because they give so much and they don't receive the reward that they feel they deserve. I won't say that they do or don't deserve it, because ultimately that is up to the woman and she'll act accordingly. Of course everyone has a rose-tinted view of marriage (well perhaps not anymore), so everyone will have high expectations. It's just more complicated than simply who 'gets' more from a relationship. Men don't concern themselves with 'getting' things from a relationship that much because they derive their satisfaction from receiving the reward that comes from giving.

[–] sardonis70 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I honestly think the fact that women are a lot happier without men (even without marriage, women tend to be happier single than coupled) says a lot about gender dynamics and who gets more out of a relationship.

Honestly? Here's my personal take on this, for what its worth: I think women today have FAR too high an expectation of what marriage means. They expect "happily ever after" without considering how much work that takes. In addition, they spend their youth being taught how to be "independent" and "self-sufficient" and probably resent having to rely on someone else once they tie the knot. I've always known that being married meant giving up some of my "freedom" in exchange for other things I want/need, and I decided long ago I'd be OK with that exchange provided it was balanced. I've seen MANY women here claim they don't need a man, and even if they marry want to remain independent of one, and I just shake my head in sadness. That is NOT a marriage, that is two people playing house. A marriage MEANS depending on someone else, otherwise why even bother with it?

Men in a general sense probably need "structure" as you call it because its in our nature. I am all about structure and routine, and because of that I can get a lot accomplished in 8 hours Mon - Friday, even while wasting some time here. In short, men need a solid "home base" so they can go out and hunt.

"gender dynamics" are at odds because what we are teaching our children is at odds. We push them to be so independent that they never learn how to rely on others. Sure we teach how to be a "team player", but even that isn't the same as attaching yourself legally and emotionally to another human being.

The men around here seem to have had some very high and off kilter expectations re: women that have made them very unhappy in relationships.

In truth, I will admit I have more "expectations" for my wife post RP, but I don't see that as a bad thing. I had practically no expectations in my first marriage, and it led us to demise. Sure, I "expect" my wife to remain as attractive as she can manage. I "expect" regular and enthusiastic sex with her. I "expect" her to put most of her effort into our family the same as I do. But the thing is: I don't ask anything of her I don't "expect" from myself TO her. Which is to say, I don't ask for anything I won't offer in return, or at least return in some different but equal way. (being that we can't possibly keep everything 100% "fair") Yeah I'm a picky son of a bitch, but I'm also getting what I want, and I'm fairly sure my wife is ALSO getting what she wants. I think that is about the best you can expect from a marriage, and even that isn't 24x7. Shit happens and sometimes life sucks. I make it my goal to move us back to a "balanced state" if/when things get out of whack for awhile.

And as far as a "raw deal" goes, I didn't much enjoy sleeping next to a woman for 4+ years without any sexual interaction at all. My "raw deal" was choosing between a life of jerking off even though I was married or risking my financial future and my ability to be an active parent. Rock and a hard place, but eventually my ex forced the choice and served me papers. And FWIW, my ex married a second time, so maybe she got something out of my "raw deal", or she's just a dumb ass like me and doesn't learn her lessons the first time. :P

[–]MehrunePeter Pan Extraordinaire 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

You didn't say that -- but you're RP flair implied that. I'm familiar with the ideology to which you subscribe.

Ehhhhhhh, I agree with it about 60% of what they have to say.

No normal woman responds to someone who is constantly maintaining frame, threatening to 'next' them as a part of dread etc.

I don't do stuff like that nor agree with that either, actually that's a big portion of RP that I don't agree with. Dread game when applied appropriately(implied dread) can work but usually comes off as immature and douchey, because it is.

As for frame...I actually agree with them on that, as I've never and would never emotionally express myself. In fact I've been this way for as long as I can remember. I'm pretty much naturally "stoic" so it's not hard to do. My neighbor growing up took care of his wife when she had cancer, guy always maintained a very masculine frame. Well he found out a decade later he had cancer cried about it every so often, his wife left him and took their kids and half his money(or something like that), he hung himself a few years back I heard. Not that this sort of thing happens all the time, but let's just say I'm glad I'm naturally a stoic guy.

The problem is in the way that you guys define what it means to be 'not a pushover'. It's far too extreme, generally speaking.

I understand that perspective. I'm more what they would call "dark triad" and I would agree they take shit to the extreme. Like I said 60/40, I don't fully prescribe myself to any ideology, perhaps other than fiscal conservatism and social liberalism.

[–]PancakeInvaders 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (21 children) | Copy Link

There's nothing wrong with loving yourself and putting yourself first, there's nothing wrong with being wary of others and understanding human psychology, and I admit some psychopaths are dangerous but I'm very considerate of other people and treat others the way I expect to be treat in any given situation. However I'm definitely not someone people should ever get on the bad side of.

You see there's nothing wrong with being unemphatic towards others when you aren't impulsive which I'm not. I think things through before I act. I'm not a direct risk to anyone around me and I have never broken a law. When I get back at people it's usually planned ahead of time and I attack whatever they care about the most, usually through manipulation, it's not that difficult honestly most people are easy to read. A shrink cannot "fix" a dark triad with medicine and therapy sessions. Those are for people with impulsive personality types and anger issues. I'm hardly ever angry actually now that I think about it. Also people whom are more impulsive are commonly labeled psychopaths because they're less introspective. It's when you mix impulsiveness with my personality type that bad things happen, which is why I never drink any alcohol.

Do you watch GoT? If the answer is yes, do you believe that Tywin Lannister should go see a shrink? Because we have a very similar personality, except I'm not as grouchy I make it a point to be likeable. Are you a nerd? I am for lack of a better term "Lawful Evil"

[–] PancakeInvaders 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] Mehrune Peter Pan Extraordinaire 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mehrune1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can learn to measure dark triad characteristics in therapy. And, if they're there because of nurture (trauma is often the cause of antisocial personality disorder) rather than nature (biology) you can ease a lot of the symptoms by working through their core.

I was born like that as far as I'm aware.

I behaved very much like a psychopath -- cold, calculating, no empathy -- after being raped. The trauma created some kind of temporary antisocial personality disorder and serious sadistic tendencies. Therapy was very helpful in managing this (and working through my trauma).

Sorry to hear that, and I also have sadistic tendencies myself. However I'm considerate of other people for the most part.

Therapy was very helpful in managing this (and working through my trauma).

Wouldn't help me at all, I used to enjoy playing mind games with my therapist as a child. I had to go see one after my mom caught me cutting up animals from the woods/pond near our house, and mutilating my per hamster and cat.

Do you think you were always a psychopath?

Yes but I believe it's called ASPD, also I'm primary and not secondary.

It sounds like you're approaching your lack of empathy responsibly -- more power to you. Learned empathy/learning the correct responses, which it sounds like you're doing, is always valuable.

:)

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–] ExpectedFactorialBot 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (4 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

People who do Dialectical Behaviour Therapy. It allows you to hold many conflicting thoughts at once, with ease. Which is good for the kind of thinking I do, generally speaking. I'm not good at CBT, which makes you flatten your mindset into one specific mode/path of thought. I find that it often involves erasing your feelings and I like being in touch with mine even if it's messier.

Interesting, I'm not familiar with DBT. Have you ever visited a psychotherapist?

I wasn't even trying to fuck with people's heads in this thread! What?! How alarming. I didn't mean to.

Yeah, I honestly believe you. And it's part of what makes women so...powerful. You don't see yourself actively fucking with people and manipulating them. It's just your nature doing its thing.

Your therapists pointing it out is not random, even if you were younger you still had much of the craft already developed.

An intelligent woman who studied law, much of which involves the art of communication, and is a sex worker, amplifying your understanding of men furthermore, has to be incredibly manipulative by nature. You're like a manipulation machine, but you think of yourself as mostly being nice and avoiding manipulating people.

Luckily you're kind spirited, or else you'd be right in line for some DT work.

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Yes, most of the people I've worked with have been psychotherapists as well as psychologists.

Eh, I can see how I might have been getting people to rethink their positions or engage differently -- but that's normal. Everyone positions their audience in a way that makes them more receptive to a point or tries to do so in a debate context. I was engaging almost everyone in good faith.

I was very much purposefully fucking with my therapists back then -- it was a goal. I wanted to confuse them because I felt attacked, so I was attacking back. I got shuffled along many, many times as a result.

I work well with therapists now, most of the time.

I can be incredibly manipulative. I'm capable of it and I'm very, very good at it when I choose to be manipulative. I just tend to choose not to be. I don't think of myself as inherently un-manipulative, though -- I often have to tell myself not to be manipulative because it would make my life easier if I were. To be fair and play fair etc.

[–]Mehrune1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I always play mind games with my therapists and have done so since I was a kid. That doesn't necessarily mean therapy is not useful to you (I've been through about 15, lol).

Therapy for someone like me is fruitless as I'm a natural dark triad.

I had to go see a therapist when I was very little because my mom caught me mutilating my pet hamster and some creatures I found in the woods. Years after I quit going to his "therapy" sessions I infiltrated his family as he seemed to really care for his wife. It was easy as he was a family friend, and I befriended his eldest son, whom I'm still friendly with to this day. I knew their money was tight so I planned ahead. One year for Christmas they bought their youngest a new gaming console, tv, the works. Well through a few months of manipulation I convinced the eldest to toss them out a their third story window, so he wouldn't have to take the blame I convinced the youngest that his mother has something to do with it. I caught her going on long tirades about the dangers of video games so it was perfect. Once the seeds were planted the husband was pissed, during this time I realized the mother had taken a liking to me, I was only 18 at the time but I got her to sleep with me and I made sure my therapist would find out but he doesn't know who it was and she would be too embarrassed to say who. They're now divorced, and all this because he didn't take my warnings seriously when I told him to inform my mother that I was fine and didn't need therapy. I lost nearly a month total of my free time over two years, it's his fault for prolonging that garbage, not mine.

Edit: So what sorts of mind games did you play with yours?

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–] Mehrune Peter Pan Extraordinaire 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mehrune1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Mehrune1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Mehrune1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you think anarchy couldn't work?

See the pre-middle ages, in short no I don't believe so. Although men would have a bit more fun I think. Definitely more benefits in a world of anarchy for men than for women. In a hyper advanced society(singularity, which we're heading towards) men will have the upper hand again in the sexual market place, will take 15-20 or so years though. Think full immersion virtual reality(30 years) and intelligent and realistic sexbots(8-12 years). Read into Kurzweil and Ian Pearson. Women will be kicking themselves in 10 years.

Nice, I mostly listen to death and black metal, sometimes some edm. Are there any metal albums you consider to be masterpieces?

Death metal is cool, so is edm. Yes, Ride the Lighting, and Master of Puppets are without doubt the greatest metal albums of all time in my opinion, even better than Black Sabbath. I would go as far as to say they are among the greatest musical compositions of all time.

[–]SetConsumesAlways Becoming 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I've never been cheated on, smacked around or cost a lot of money by a partner. In the relationship realm, nothing terrible has ever happened to me -- the men I've dated have all actually been fairly nice to me (way, way nicer than most people's partners are), whether or not they are perceived as assholes by others.

Nerdy men tend to think my boyfriend is an asshole. He's not. He's just extroverted af.

Most of my bad experiences with men have been with strange men or men who've gotten pissed off that I rejected them. I specifically am attracted to ability to show vulnerability and I think this might be part of why this happens -- stoic does nothing for me. Behaviours that RP thinks will create tingles will just make me dump you. I next better than any RP man, tbh, although I'm not always threatening to do it. My standards are high.

[–]Entropy-7Old Goat 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I am a 'slut'. I have never intentionally fucked a man who's an asshole. That kind of thing is just a huge, huge turn-off.~

You are one of the very feq 'sluts' who doesn't fuck assholes lol.

Ime, sexually 'liberal' girls are not all about dickheads. Insecure girls who are sleeping around to prove themselves and affirm their desirability do tend to be, though.

No. Girls who sleep around aren't insecure. There is no such thing as an insecure, attractive girl. They use the whole excuse of being insecure or being damaged or hurt or whatever to justify their innate desire for alpha male cock. They sleep around because most women would love to sleep around with alpha men, its just that most are fat and therefore can't get more than a drunken pump and dump out of an alpha male.

Bravo, capitalising on the insecurities of a vulnerable group. Admirable.

Woah, really? You honestly believe men are taking advantage of women? Everything created is to take advantage of men, and our sex drive. Porn, cam girls, attention-seeking whores, and so on.

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Nah, I'm not. Most sluts I know do not fuck assholes. And there is absolutely such a thing as an attractive, insecure girl. I've got many insecurities. I have been through all sorts of trauma in my life -- abusive childhood, brutal rape. And I'm mentally ill. I have bipolar disorder, I had issues with self perception and body dysmorphia eating when I was younger (note, I had these issues before I was sexually active. Years and years before. The insecurity wasn't an excuse to sleep with alpha cock, lovely).

The statements you're making are really kind of ludicrous. But I'm not sure how to engage with you. I want to be kind to you, because you're clearly in need of some kindness. Please, find some way to soothe yourself. It's honestly...hard to read your posts sometimes, because there's so much trauma and defensiveness backed up in them.

<3 -- again, have some internet love. I'm not sure if I'm engaging with you appropriately or in a way that's not going to piss you off, but I hope you can feel the warmth. I know you only think you need sex, but no man is an island. Take care.

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Let me see, I've been going to nightclubs and bars since I was 15, and I've been going to those places steadily so until now, at the age of 28. I've met hundreds, hundreds, thousands of women and the vast majority of the women have been fucked over by assholes, especailly if the girl was cute and thin.

You know hundreds, thousands of women???

And there is absolutely such a thing as an attractive, insecure girl.

No, there aren't. I would even venture out and say that if a girl is average looking facially and isn't fat she's automatically given high self-confidence and little to zero self-esteem issues, and don't get me started on body issues. Hot women claiming they aren't happy with their perfect bodies????? lololol sure, thing.

Now, that said. There's certain girls who are attractive and have insecurities. Extremely very few. Too few for ''red pillers to take advantage of women '' I personally take offense over that and I'm not even a red piller. You realize red pillers have feelings too and that being told that hurts them?

Women - and all women who aren't landwhales - start getting positive validation from boys, then men, from the moment they hit their 13th birthday and upwards. They get so much attention if they could get fat from the attention they get from guys they'd be fatter than Rosie O'donell.

I have been through all sorts of trauma in my life -- abusive childhood, brutal rape. And I'm mentally ill. I have bipolar disorder, I had issues with self perception and body dysmorphia eating when I was younger (note, I had these issues before I was sexually active. Years and years before. The insecurity wasn't an excuse to sleep with alpha cock, lovely).

Oh, I forget most girls have been raped and been abused during their childhood(???) Sorry to hear that happened to you, but most women aren't raped or have a shitty childhood. Unless you are talking about third world, and middle-eastern women, that is. I'm talking about white, western women in this paradise known as the western civlization.

I understand that some like you have been abused and taken advantage of, but most have not been taken advantage of and it pisses me off to no end when I meet girls and I give them some emotional intimacy and they come up with bs how they will only have sex with me if I date them first, if I become their boyfriends, and then they start talking about how when they were 17 they fucked x and x guys without the guy even having to learn their names and how now they are insecure and feel used by men.

......................really?

This is a clear example of women trying to take advantage of me.

I had issues with self perception and body dysmorphia eating when I was younger

lmao this is what every girl says. Pretty, skinny girls who are automatically a 10/10 because of their youth and thineness and cute face and yet they complain about feeling ugly, not thin not pretty etc etc. Dude, that happens because every woman is competing for the alpha male :/

The statements you're making are really kind of ludicrous. But I'm not sure how to engage with you. I want to be kind to you, because you're clearly in need of some kindness. Please, find some way to soothe yourself. It's honestly...hard to read your posts sometimes, because there's so much trauma and defensiveness backed up in them.

Yeah, I was raped by girls as a kid and I was taken advantage emotionally over the years by girls, so I am a little emotionally guarded :/ People don't realize guys can also be raped, and if the girl is attractive they think the guy enjoyed it or that he automatically consented even though I was too young to consent to anything but whtaver.

[–]lollygagyoSociopathic Fake Flirter 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Of course I have encountered hundreds and thousands of women. I am a former party girl and sex worker, I occasionally work as a model, I live with actresses and artists. I know the attractive girls. They are my friends. And I'm very, very familiar with night clubs.

Night clubs are not reality. They are a specific place in which people behave a certain way.

And you do not know these women and you cannot understand their behaviour. You're projecting onto them based on what you've seen in a fifteen minute snapshot of them dancing on a sweaty dancefloor.

If you saw me at a club, you'd likely think I was fucking assholes. I'm not.

There's a correlation between promiscuity and childhood abuse. I'm not saying that all women are like this (AWALT) but many of the insecure women you meet at nightclubs who sleep with men who are mean to them are repeating patterns from their childhood. This is what love looks like to them and offering sex is an easy way to get it.

[–]OncleJulian 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

Of course I have encountered hundreds and thousands of women. I am a former party girl and sex worker. I'm very familiar with night clubs.

Is that so? when did you began to party and until when did you continue to party? Do you get hot men as your clients?

You do not know these women and you cannot understand their behaviour. You're projecting onto them based on what you've seen in a fifteen minute snapshot of them dancing on a sweaty dancefloor.

You do not know these women and you cannot understand their behaviour. You're projecting onto them based on what you've seen in a fifteen minute snapshot of them dancing on a sweaty dancefloor.

Wow, I do not know these women??? Why do you say that? Because I see right through their BS and the victimhood cloak of deception they wrap around themselves to inspire men to give them emotional attention and validation and gifts?? Or because I don't fall for that BS, of girls being used by men and then dumped?

Women aren't used by anyone. They willingly take part in casual sex with alpha men because they enjoy it, some do want relationships with those guys but those girls are entiteld and feel they are worthy of being given commitment by what the world has the best to offer(alpha males) just because they are cute and put out.

If you saw me at a club, you'd likely think I was fucking assholes.

if you are indeed a 10, I wouldn't even dare to look your way, M'lady :)

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I have. The most attractive man I've slept with was a client. I've slept with famous people for work. I also see unattractive clients, of/c.

I say that you don't know these women because you haven't had lengthy conversations with them. The idea that you 'know' someone who you've seen on a dancefloor for 15 minutes, that you see through all of their bullshit...It's ridiculous.

I will never contend that I was 'used' while I was having casual sex. I wasn't. But women who are insecure, who fall into abusive patterns from their childhood, with men who are only too happy to destroy them emotionally to get their physical needs met? Yes, they are being used.

I've used insecure men in the past. I am not proud of it, but manipulating someone who is insecure is easier than manipulating someone who isn't. Breaking the boundaries of someone who doesn't have strong ones to begin with is easier.

I'm not a 10. No one is a 10.

[–] OncleJulian 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Yes. I have. The most attractive man I've slept with was a client. I've slept with famous people for work. I also see unattractive clients, of/c.

Was he a 10? So.. if even super hot men visit escorts, why do most women abhor escorts and don't want men who sleep with escorts? Considering how escorts have so many clients, I'd say a very great deal sleep with escorts? See, hypergamy, guys need to rely to prostitutes to get laid :/

I say that you don't know these women because you haven't had lengthy conversations with them. The idea that you 'know' someone who you've seen on a dancefloor for 15 minutes, that you see through all of their bullshit...It's ridiculous.

hey dude, I interacted with women besides the dance floor, ok ? I took their phone numbers and I spent a lot of time with them. I was majorly pissed off because those chicks wanted to date me and I don't date. Period. Fuck that. I ain't giving commitment to girls who gave it up for free to other guys aka, every girl who isn't fat.

Anyway, I still have quite a few of those party girls as my friends and let me tell you that I don't believe one word of what they say when they claim they have low self-esteem/body issues/or were treated like shit by their ex -boyfriends or that they had casual sex because they were tricked into it lmao, sure.

Wonder how girls would react if a guy said that.

I will never contend that I was 'used' while I was having casual sex. I wasn't. But women who are insecure, who fall into abusive patterns from their childhood, with men who are only too happy to destroy them emotionally to get their physical needs met? Yes, they are being used.

Sorry, but the vast majority of women have casual sex have it because they enjoy gettinr jackhammered by an alpha male for 5 minutes or less, they aren't doing it because they are insecure and were emotionally manipulated into that.

Sorry, but that doesn't work on me. You might be a different case but most girls who are pretty and thin do not suffer from low self-esteem nor do they have body-image related problems.

with men who are only too happy to destroy them emotionally to get their physical needs met? Yes, they are being used.

Women aren't used for sex, men are used for emotional validation, attention, resources, gifts and commitment. Girls enjoy getting fucked, sorry to break it to you.

I've used insecure men in the past. I am not proud of it, but manipulating someone who is insecure is easier than manipulating someone who isn't. Breaking the boundaries of someone who doesn't have strong ones to begin with is easier.

See, this is how most women are. They use men and they do whatever they want with me and then they throw us poor, emotionally giving men like we're yesterday's trash.

I'm not a 10. No one is a 10.

yes, you are a 10. Stop being humble.

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I have met no women who abhor escorts. On here, the only people who ever, ever give me shit for being an escort and get mad at me about it are men. And they get very mad. Really, really mad -- they want me to be unhappy, to be a drug addict, they send me messages about how they hope I get raped.

The women (even the reds, although they are occasionally disdainful) tend to engage me with curiosity more than anything else.

This idea that RP has that women are anti-prostitution doesn't hold up with anything I've seen from women themselves as a prostitute. True, no one wants to date a guy who's fucked tons of prostitutes -- because women don't like male sluts just as men don't like female sluts, this is another lie you tell yourself -- but most women seem not to be super opposed to prostitution.

I react with empathy and a kind ear when my best friend -- who has a six pack! and is a former rugby player! -- tells me about his body issues. He has them. I've lived with him and have seen him get obsessive about measuring things, about getting the perfect physique. If he's not at 8% body fat, he thinks he's obese. The mindset is crazy, yes. But he's not lying, it's genuinely how he feels.

Most women seem to think it's sad when men have issues with their bodies, ime. I know one girl who doesn't and is rude to people about it and she's widely thought of as an asshole because of it.

[–] OncleJulian 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I have met no women who abhor escorts.

Every time the topic of prostitution shows up on askwomen, the majority of women strongly manifest their dislike and disgust over men who use the services of prostitutes, and most women IRL when the topic comes to prostitution also very strongly object to sleeping with men who slept with prostitutes.

The only men who are forgiven for using hookers are the men with alpha male looks or men who are rich.

On here, the only people who ever, ever give me shit for being an escort and get mad at me about it are men. And they get very mad. Really, really mad -- they want me to be unhappy, to be a drug addict, they send me messages about how they hope I get raped.

Really? Do you get dms here from men who want you to die? Why? :/ There's nothing wrong with a woman putting out for cash, hell you are possibly one of the most honest women I've ever talked to.

The women (even the reds, although they are occasionally disdainful) tend to engage me with curiosity more than anything else.

What are they curious about, the women?

This idea that RP has that women are anti-prostitution doesn't hold up with anything I've seen from women themselves as a prostitute. True, no one wants to date a guy who's fucked tons of prostitutes -- because women don't like male sluts just as men don't like female sluts, this is another lie you tell yourself -- but most women seem not to be super opposed to prostitution.

Then why is prostitution illegal if most women aren't opposed to it? :/

[–] lollygagyo Sociopathic Fake Flirter 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

What the profession is like, my experiences etc. They think the perspective is interesting, generally speaking.

Prostitution is not illegal where I am. It's decriminalised and women are the people I see in the lobby groups trying to have the laws changed etc to protect workers more and get things properly legalised. Feminist women, quite often. It's never men -- never, ever men. When sex work came up in philosophy and law classrooms at Uni, it was generally the men who opposed legalisation and not the women.

I do get DMs from men who want me to die. I get those DMs because, despite what you might think about the 'gynocentric world' there is a lot of misogyny going around, my friend. A lot of men get angry with women who are in control of their sexuality or who just dare to be sexual. I get DMs from people that say that they hope someone breaks my bones again, that they're glad I got raped etc etc

Not often, because this is a small debate sub. But regularly enough. This is what being a sexually active and open woman is like. I have never gotten this kind of message from a woman -- only men.

Disliking men who use prostitutes is rooted in something else. Tbh, I personally dislike men who use prostitutes at really cheap massage parlours -- the women in those places work under terrible conditions. They're force fed ice to work 24hr shifts. It's legal, but barely and it's fucked up. The men who walk in there and avail themselves of that service are gross because the whole thing's wrapped up in human rights violation and, generally speaking, you can tell. It's not that hard to work out that the girl who's servicing you is on ice, that management's not providing her with condoms and has told you 'bareback' is a $20 extra. It's fucked up.

The rest of it is...women don't like men who are sluts. I know men think this isn't true. But we don't. We've been socialised to think that these men are dangerous, 'gross', creepy. Seeing a prostitute implies that you see women as disposable. Women who like relationships aren't going to look upon this favourably -- you're not her kind of man.

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Ime, sexually 'liberal' girls are not all about dickheads. Insecure girls who are sleeping around to prove themselves and affirm their desirability do tend to be, though.

Fucking THIS.

We almost never have this discussion on PPD and it's a good one. There are different kinds of sluts - male and female. I have known both, of both genders. The desperately insecure (not a slam or a claim I am not insecure - I'm human, I have insecurities, but I think there are people out there who seemed ruled by them in a way most of us aren't) is one of the two main types.

People (male and female) who have a lot of casual sex with obviously insecure assholes are overwhelmingly likely to be insecure assholes themselves. And then they both spend their non-fucking hours whining about how awful the opposite sex is (i.e. hamstering away the subconscious knowledge that the situation just might have something to do with who they are, as well).

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If you're "fully" TRP, there are some fundamental beliefs I can't reconcile with being a "good man."

Good thing you don't need to, lol.

I probably hold some views of the women in my life that, should they find their way into my head and my thoughts, they might find hard to reconcile, too.

But they aren't being asked to, either - they tend to assess my value and worth and "goodness" based on my actions and my ways of being rather than assessing based on what they think I am thinking or what viewpoints I hold (which probably wouldn't even make sense to them, anyway, similar to how non-RPW (at least) women on here seem to constantly be at a loss as to how we think and operate and what our lives look like).

A follow-on to that is that, for a long time, I was never interested primarily in being "good" or a "good guy" (especially in my past, pre-fatherhood days). I'm interested in fulfilling on my commitments in life, all of which could probably be rolled up and summarized into "having a life that really works", both for me and for everyone else in my life. Sometimes that might appear like I'm being "good", other times it really might not. But it's the results, for myself and others, that matter most to me, not some moralistic assessment as to how I fit with a normative model of behavior.

Which is why I probably agree with at least most of the core descriptions in the RP model of sexual dynamics. I can't think of many that I don't. They all pretty well explain most/all of my successes and failures with the opposite sex, and corroborate most of my observations garnered from decades of watching and interacting with countless numbers of individuals of both sexes (as well as couples) IRL.

That said, I think I probably have a (seasoned? critical? pragmatic? non-moralistic?) view and interpretation of those descriptions that undoubtedly differentiates me from some other RPers (and, possibly, a lot of TRPers, many of whom would seem to be quite far away from where I am, given the number of youngsters, MGTOWs, MRAs, and PUA-types that frequently post there), so I would really have to qualify how any given "fundamental belief" is presented before agreeing or disagreeing with it. And I feel confident that I have the right of it when it comes to which advocated "fundamental beliefs" are actually internally consistent to RP, so I really do come at this from that more personal angle.

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Man, this is where our worldviews are so different.

I don't know that I know of one woman (or man) IRL that hasn't had casual sex at some point (a couple didn't venture there until they were a bit older and/or divorced, but it still happened...).

But then again, I'm not religious anymore, lol (not that that really matters - I learned early on that even really religious girls could be seduced pretty quickly if presented with the right opportunity).

Of course, I count any sex before establishing that a commitment is going to happen as 'casual' - if you slept with someone right off the bat but after a few times you two decided to make a go of a relationship, you still had casual sex, IMO, since it could have easily gone the other way. You had no way of knowing the actual relationship parameters prior to sleeping with them, hence 'casual.'

But yeah - IME, the overwhelming majority of people have had at least one casual sex encounter. Could be where I live (urban center) and the kinds of people I generally socialize with (which seem to be pretty varied, but maybe not...).

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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Prefer? I don't know. I think a lot of younger women are more interested in doing their own thing than in getting locked into a relationship might, so they might prefer that (as someone who was brought up with very "traditional" thinking, I certainly ran into that a lot).

But I would definitely say that most women are (or can be) interested in casual sex with the right guy, under the right circumstances. When a really good opportunity presents itself (what constitutes a "good opportunity" depends on the individual, of course), I don't know that I've seen many women turn it down. Even those who swear they are just wanting a relationship...

I mean, from the time I started being really sexually active, I didn't have anything other than 'casual sex' with new partners. Sure, many of those encounters turned into relationships (and even a marriage with one particular woman), and many of those encounters were with women who swore up and down that they never did that sort of thing with, you know, any other guys (don't know that I ever believed them, but some of them were adamant), but that was my experience, and seemed to be the common experience for a lot of the attractive guys I knew back when we were all young.

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News flash: Red Pill men aren't "red pill men" in the real world.

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and then settle down with some grateful beta computer programmer type who will give you the financial security and the quieter/calmer life for your 30s and up.

The problem is when this generation of women in their 20s reaches their 30s those same men won't be grateful...they won't even be interested. Most of them are going to have fully checked out by then due to modern technology and the nature of current relationships, not to mention the fact that if a decent looking man in his 30s want to settle down they often times choose women 5-10 years younger because they can, this happens much more than the inverse.

Women are actually usually looking for a boyfriend/husband and almost need one for the validation from what I've observed, by and large it's mostly young millennial gamers and men who normally have been betas that are checking out. Now going off of the 80/20 rule, that's 80% of young men potentially checking out of pursuing women.

Women won't pursue those men because they don't pursue at all its not in their nature. So they get depressed and get pumped and dumped by chad and become feminists. Women in this generation are the most depressed of all time. For men it hasn't changed very much. Honestly guys in 25 years time we will have full immersion VR and none of this will matter anyway, but until then virtual sex will become more and more realistic making the number of betas checking out go up and up.

I identify as an alpha and would rather pursue real women than waste my time on porn and VR shit, but I will check out myself once FIVR comes around. I don't want kids of a marriage, and I'm in my early 20s. I notice I have no issues at all picking up girls once they know I'm interested it's actually pretty fucking easy, and there's single girls all over my city. There's tons of single guys too but they aren't pursuing any women they have living with their parents or roommates working in retail, masturbating to porn every night, and playing video games all the time.

According to the Pew Research Center and the Population Reference Bureau, 2 in 5 18- to 31-year-old men and 1 in 5 25- to 34-year-old men live in their parents’ basements or their childhood bedrooms, compared with 1 in 3 and 1 in 10 women in each of these age groups. And these numbers have been trending upward, even during the post-2008 “recovery.” One-third of the 30 million men in this age group are not employed, and many who are work only part-time or in low-wage jobs. Two-thirds have never married. By comparison, only 1 in 5 Generation Xers weren’t working and two-fifths of Baby Boomers weren’t married at comparable ages.

See this article-

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larissafaw/2012/12/05/why-are-so-many-professional-millennial-women-unable-to-find-dateable-men/#171cae337801

Some women are even considering moving to places with a lower female to male ratio...lmao. My point is once these chicks hit the wall and still don't have a proper BF they will all collectively freak the fuck out...meanwhile I envision their male opposites will be chilling eating hotpockets fucking sexbots and playing pretty much photo realistic video games.

Edit: See Japan for more info - http://www.vogue.com/13411180/virtual-romance-apps/

Direct quotes:

“Women have a common frustration that they cannot enjoy romantic situations like those in virtual games,” she says. The scenarios may be “unrealistic,” she adds, but they hold sway nonetheless.

“[Women] dream of a guy who is handsome, controlling, and unreasonably in love with [them],” says Marcos Daniel Arroyo, a software engineer at Cheritz who has built a career on understanding what women want from virtual relationships. The games allow women to date the kind of men they are attracted to, but without any of the hassle or heartbreak. They fulfill, says Arroyo, “the fantasy of a relationship that cannot occur so easily in real life.”

Kitajima agrees, citing a “sadistic but charismatic” archetype popular among women worldwide. In real life, Kitajima says, there may be an incentive to avoid this type as a boyfriend or husband, but in the gaming world, the characters provide an outlet for women to tap into their romantic imagination. Fantasies can be explored without consequence.

“[These apps] give me a chance to hide away from my real life, in which I don’t have a boyfriend,” Mook says. “And by playing these games, it hurts nobody.”

[–]PemBayliss 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 9 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Ehhh not really...those unattractive men with end up in full immersion virtual reality with the attractive men following behind them in 20-25 years.

Before then I would say once women hit 25-35 or so they start to think about their future. They will want a boyfriend and they will have some trouble with that 80% beta portion that checked out. Meanwhile betas will get better and better porn and eventually sexbots, you can look into it if you don't believe me.

Me myself as a redpiller am not interested in that shit until it's photo realistic full immersion vr and right now only plan on pursuing real pussy(HB6+). I guarantee you these bitches I'm pumping and dumping will start trying to get a beta boyfriend and well have alot of trouble competing with innovative technology...if the guy is even interested at all.

I agree with you about looks though, men's looks matter more than womens right now. Attractive men will continue to bathe in pussy for the next 20 years or so no doubt, once FIVR comes about they will check out as well. I'm sure women will enjoy FIVR as well, basically in 25 years or so everyone will be happy. That time range could be off by 5 years but not much more as we're headed in that direction. I'm thinking brain implants or nanobots. This will be mainstream by 2040's.

[–]PemBayliss 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MehrunePeter Pan Extraordinaire -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't think you really comprehend what I'm saying tbh. These unattractive guys will be avoiding women altogether. They won't want to get married or have children. These women will want a relationship and they won't so that's that. They could get laid here and there as you say but they probably won't care to with 25-35+ post wall hags. When they can fap or use sexbots that look like they're in their prime they won't have to or want to.

If you're correct, most of these guys will still end up married to a woman who's the best pussy they ever had, and they'll still end up divorced eventually. the more things change, the more they stay the same.

No I know I am right and they won't be getting married at all, the women will just have to stay single and pull progressively less attractive chads who they know will just pump and dump them.

But I don't think that's how it will shake out.. I think unattractive guys will retreat into porn; most women will work office jobs, get an alpha to knock them up, and live alone with their one alphaspawn.

This is literally exactly what I've been saying except for the alpha spawn part. Modern alphas aren't that stupid(see TRP subreddit or myself for instance) we know about not knocking these women up so we don't have to pay support. You're correct about women working office jobs though, and about them living alone. There will be many more crazy cat ladies and many more men living with their parent(s) or in a bachelor pad with "peter pan" syndrome for sure.

[–]OncleJulian 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The problem is when this generation of women in their 20s reaches their 30s those same men won't be grateful...they won't even be interested. Most of them are going to have fully checked out by then due to modern technology and the nature of current relationships, not to mention the fact that if a decent looking man in his 30s want to settle down they often times choose women 5-10 years younger because they can, this happens much more than the inverse.

The only men in their 30s who can genuinely get women in their 20s - girls who aren't putting out in exchange for resources - are the men who are remarkably good-looking in their 20s and keep their hair and looks into their 30s and beyond.

Women are actually usually looking for a boyfriend/husband and almost need one for the validation from what I've observed, by and large it's mostly young millennial gamers and men who normally have been betas that are checking out. Now going off of the 80/20 rule, that's 80% of young men potentially checking out of pursuing women.

Nah, I don't see this at all. I know a bunch of very attractive girls and they're all single, or they have very short term-relationships because they can't get enough of alpha dick. Most young women nowadays don't care about relationships, even if the guys are alphas, they'd rather have fun and enjoy their youth.

Women won't pursue those men because they don't pursue at all its not in their nature. So they get depressed and get pumped and dumped by chad and become feminists. Women in this generation are the most depressed of all time. For men it hasn't changed very much. Honestly guys in 25 years time we will have full immersion VR and none of this will matter anyway, but until then virtual sex will become more and more realistic making the number of betas checking out go up and up.

Girls pursue, approach, and offer sex easily enough to alpha males.

[–]Mehrune1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The only men in their 30s who can genuinely get women in their 20s - girls who aren't putting out in exchange for resources - are the men who are remarkably good-looking in their 20s and keep their hair and looks into their 30s and beyond.

Like I said...good lookingmen in their 30s.

Nah, I don't see this at all. I know a bunch of very attractive girls and they're all single, or they have very short term-relationships because they can't get enough of alpha dick. Most young women nowadays don't care about relationships, even if the guys are alphas, they'd rather have fun and enjoy their youth.

It's probably more the guys that are dropping them or it's mutual, but I could be wrong. They will want a relationship at that 25-35+ point where they realize they've hit their wall. When that happens they will have trouble finding a beta, and it will only get harder every year. You must role with some weird social circles or not pay any attention to technological progression. There isn't an attractive girl I know that isn't looking for a relationship, I'm offered all the time I just don't care.

Girls pursue, approach, and offer sex easily enough to alpha males.

Sure, but they weren't the topic of discussion, beta males were if you were paying attention.

[–]minutiesabotage 13 points13 points13 points 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]sardonis70 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]InformalCriticismProbably Red 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]StickItInTheToilet 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]InformalCriticismProbably Red 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Oh, so you're a 9th grade health teacher? Thanks for the heads up. If you're in a committed relationship, and she doesn't want you to use condoms, because you're on birth control as a poor college student, what is a thinking person really going to do? Call me when you get back to Earth.

I can't understand trp men, who want to control just about everything in a relationship and who usually don't want children, yet you willing hand over this responsibility to a woman.

I guess it bears worth repeating, since you are unable to see it yourself with ample opportunity: contraception is always a mutual decision in LTRs. She broke the trust we had after 2 years of dating so that I couldn't leave her. Clean the shit off your brain for a second so you can see how absolutely fucked your perspective is - "Oh, she stopped taking birth control on purpose? What were you thinking, bro?!"

For a group that hates victim blame so much, you all sure do lack an appreciation for irony when it counts.

Why is birth control only a woman's responsibility? You know full well that if a baby happens, you will be financially responsible for that baby.

If you get to be dumb three times, I get to set you straight three times: No one said birth control was only a woman's responsibility, but when she intentionally gets pregnant by abusing the trust formed on family planning it's just not the man's fault. The only responsibility I have for that child is living in a country that rapes men in its "civil" courts. I learned that lesson the hard way, and I'll be damned if I sit around letting people think there is any justice for men like me, much less let some floozy tell me I should have known better than to be lied to repeatedly until it was too late.

Go take a philosophy class and come back when you have some foundation of ethics and morality. Maybe then your conscience might wake up from its dirt nap.

[–]StickItInTheToilet 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]OncleJulian -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MentathielPurple Pill Woman1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]InformalCriticismProbably Red 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

No she did. She got a 3rd wave femnazi lawyer who tried everything in the book. She got my ex to accuse me of physically abusing my son, accused me of substance abuse (she's the one who popped ambien 3 hours before she tried to go to sleep), and she had been physically abusive occasionally for about 10 months before I found out she had been cheating.

I found out 2nd hand that a few months after things got nasty she even attempted to get me charged with assault and rape. I don't know how she would have done that, but she admitted to it through mutual contacts when she was upset the magistrates wouldn't accept her complaints.

Her lawyer abused another law by manipulating my mother, a bipolar worrier, that I was suicidal, and had me forcibly removed from work, drive 45 minutes for a psych eval in handcuffs.

[–]MentathielPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't know how to differentiate between environmental cause and people trying to imitate DT. People that try to imitate DT do so because of environmental causes. i.e. It is beneficial to be DT if one wants to maximize success in America.

But a non-DT person generally won't be happy pretending to be DT. For instance, people in high management positions often act like DT during their work time, but lead normal lives out of it. While you can apply the tactic to all aspects of life, a normal person simply won't be happy like that, they need an outlet and they need interpersonal relationships which aren't just an act. So I suppose a teller is that they'll eventually break.

I don't believe in free will, so environmental causes profoundly affect most people's wills and their will's choices.

Yeah, I agree. The thing is that I'm not talking about environmental causes for a person to act DT in a certain setting or a situation, which is obviously a strong incentive because it benefits them, coupled with lack of moral weight put on the situation by the society (i.e. it's more acceptable in business than in romantic relationships). I'm talking about the causes for development of DT personality. Because any of DT aren't disorders, they're abnormal types of personalities. Much like your personality was shaped by the environmental factors, their personality was too, but since they turned out abnormal, it's reasonable to assume that their environment was also abnormal.

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

I don't know how to differentiate between environmental cause and people trying to imitate DT. People that try to imitate DT do so because of environmental causes. i.e. It is beneficial to be DT if one wants to maximize success in America.

But a non-DT person generally won't be happy pretending to be DT. For instance, people in high management positions often act like DT during their work time, but lead normal lives out of it. While you can apply the tactic to all aspects of life, a normal person simply won't be happy like that, they need an outlet and they need interpersonal relationships which aren't just an act. So I suppose a teller is that they'll eventually break.

I don't think people can act DT if they are not DT. Learned DT is still DT as they will perform behaviors of someone that is DT and think somewhat similarly.

If someone is not DT outside the work the place, then they're not DT.

A learned DT man(who still has empathy) can have real relationships.

I don't believe in free will, so environmental causes profoundly affect most people's wills and their will's choices.

Yeah, I agree. The thing is that I'm not talking about environmental causes for a person to act DT in a certain setting or a situation, which is obviously a strong incentive because it benefits them, coupled with lack of moral weight put on the situation by the society (i.e. it's more acceptable in business than in romantic relationships). I'm talking about the causes for development of DT personality. Because any of DT aren't disorders, they're abnormal types of personalities. Much like your personality was shaped by the environmental factors, their personality was too, but since they turned out abnormal, it's reasonable to assume that their environment was also abnormal.

I grew up rather normal. No trauma, have good parents and family. I've always enjoyed the darker side of existence, when I was 8 I accepted I would go to hell for my nature. Why did I enjoy these things and accept my nature? Idk precisely. Thinking a lot maybe? Accepting the brutality around us and embracing it? Refusing to delude myself to feel better?

Combination of that combined with dark media and various philosophy(existential nihilism as a starting point). I could never be blinded by feel good theories, and I do remember my last grasp at 'trying to save the world', and the utter failure that resulted(apathy, pointlessness all around). After then I pretty firmly became left hand path in spirit(hence my name) and rejected all right hand path(altruistic) views.

[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That doesn't make you a learned DT.

First of all, existential nihilism and similar philosophies don't make you dark. Everyone with a good head on their shoulders know that there's no meaning to the world and is aware that importance we place on events is just an illusion. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders will tell you that it's, pragmatically speaking, better to be an existentialist, which is also logically consistent, just doesn't focus on objective meaning, since it'll give you a more pleasant ride through life. I, personally, find a good compromise in absurdism, as I can't quite blind myself on one eye, but I also can't impair myself by killing the source of motivation (things having meaning).

But anyway, back to my point, everyone struggles with existential questions and only people who refuse to follow them to their logical conclusion have easy answers to them. That doesn't mean they're any less dark, they're just afraid. You, obviously, aren't. You took hell for granted and logically knew you must end up there (as human nature is selfish and religion demands selflessness). You wondered about meaning and weren't afraid to conclude that as far as we can know there's none. Despite all of that, you still weren't afraid of nature of life and embraced it.

But embracing the nature of life isn't the same as being a part DT. Pursuing self-interest isn't the same as being DT person. Choosing to do immoral things isn't the same as belonging to the DT. Because if you aren't DT you still have the notion of morality driving you to act a certain way. And you weigh the guilt you'll feel with the incentive to act. If the incentive is stronger (for example, suggestive advertisement to kids would earn you millions of dollars or lying to a stranger woman will get you laid), you follow the incentive, unless it has possible negative consequences other than possible guilt, which are then also weighed in. But on the other hand, if sense of guilt you'll feel is stronger than the incentive (killing a person without consequences to take their wallet or beating up a small dog because you had piled up aggressive impulses you wanted to take out on someone), you won't do it. That's how all humans operate, they just often won't admit it to themselves.

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That doesn't make you a learned DT.

First of all, existential nihilism and similar philosophies don't make you dark. Everyone with a good head on their shoulders know that there's no meaning to the world and is aware that importance we place on events is just an illusion. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders will tell you that it's, pragmatically speaking, better to be an existentialist, which is also logically consistent, just doesn't focus on objective meaning, since it'll give you a more pleasant ride through life. I, personally, find a good compromise in absurdism, as I can't quite blind myself on one eye, but I also can't impair myself by killing the source of motivation (things having meaning).

It didn't make me DT, the philosophies helped enable it, break down indoctrinations. I'm dark because I've always had a fixation on death.

But anyway, back to my point, everyone struggles with existential questions and only people who refuse to follow them to their logical conclusion have easy answers to them. That doesn't mean they're any less dark, they're just afraid. You, obviously, aren't. You took hell for granted and logically knew you must end up there (as human nature is selfish and religion demands selflessness). You wondered about meaning and weren't afraid to conclude that as far as we can know there's none. Despite all of that, you still weren't afraid of nature of life and embraced it.

Not quite. I enjoyed killing living things and watching them suffer, that is why I knew I'd go to hell.

But embracing the nature of life isn't the same as being a part DT. Pursuing self-interest isn't the same as being DT person. Choosing to do immoral things isn't the same as belonging to the DT. Because if you aren't DT you still have the notion of morality driving you to act a certain way. And you weigh the guilt you'll feel with the incentive to act. If the incentive is stronger (for example, suggestive advertisement to kids would earn you millions of dollars or lying to a stranger woman will get you laid), you follow the incentive, unless it has possible negative consequences other than possible guilt, which are then also weighed in. But on the other hand, if sense of guilt you'll feel is stronger than the incentive (killing a person without consequences to take their wallet or beating up a small dog because you had piled up aggressive impulses you wanted to take out on someone), you won't do it. That's how all humans operate, they just often won't admit it to themselves.

I don't follow any morality nor do I feel guilt any longer.

What you said in general is true, but doesn't quite apply to me. My weakest Dark Tetrad trait is Machiavellianism, and that has been my focus for some time now. All the rest of the traits I already embody quite well.

[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Not quite. I enjoyed killing living things and watching them suffer, that is why I knew I'd go to hell.

Oh, then you were probably DT all along. Eight is too young to express sexual sadism or anything of the sort and given your otherwise happy childhood you wouldn't have any other motivation to do so. And animal abuse is one of the early giveaways of DT disposition.

I find it ridiculous that you, as a probable psychopath, then went along to practice other aspects of DT. I haven't even thought of that. I mean, consciously trying to practice all of them.

I don't follow any morality nor do I feel guilt any longer.

Just out of curiosity, could you share some of your experiences with following morality (since you said "any longer")? Were you empathetic? Or did you always have this sort of personality?

Maybe I'm overlooking your 'learned DT' position due to research, but admittedly, research on high-functioning DT isn't extensive. And that would be an understatement.

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (5 children) | Copy Link

Not quite. I enjoyed killing living things and watching them suffer, that is why I knew I'd go to hell.

Oh, then you were probably DT all along. Eight is too young to express sexual sadism or anything of the sort and given your otherwise happy childhood you wouldn't have any other motivation to do so. And animal abuse is one of the early giveaways of DT disposition.

I find it ridiculous that you, as a probable psychopath, then went along to practice other aspects of DT. I haven't even thought of that. I mean, consciously trying to practice all of them.

To be clear, I'm not actually a psychopath. I feel empathy and emotions deeply.

I don't think even at 16 was I actively trying to be DT. That all came later. I was still wanting to be nice and good at that age.

I don't follow any morality nor do I feel guilt any longer.

Just out of curiosity, could you share some of your experiences with following morality (since you said "any longer")? Were you empathetic? Or did you always have this sort of personality?

I grew up with Hindu morality, and was a pretty serious believer. I was certainly preached to be a good person, and that the best thing I could be was to be good.

And so for a long time I did try to be good, be kind and caring, not hurt people(too much).

When I stopped believing in God, that made me care about morality less. For a while I was an atheistic Hindu.

Then slowly but surely starting with existentialism, and studying other religions, and eventually after getting into Nietzeche, and more importantly understanding him, I dropped morality all together. A few years of undoing my conscience got rid of my guilt, accepting myself further helped solidify this.

My empathy is perhaps confusing. I've only gotten more empathetic as time goes on. But that feeds my sadism further, I feel people's pain and suffering more and I enjoy it more. I also enjoy their pleasure and joy more too.

I appreciate the full range of human emotions, not just the positive ones.

Maybe I'm overlooking your 'learned DT' position due to research, but admittedly, research on high-functioning DT isn't extensive. And that would be an understatement.

For sure, there are not many DTs, and society doesn't really like them. I surprise the fuck out of people irl often enough when I reveal parts of myself, but I suppose keeping an image that is societally acceptable is a must when you think like I do.

[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

To be clear, I'm not actually a psychopath. I feel empathy and emotions deeply.

But you're a non-sexual sadist and you don't feel guilt or any inclination to follow morality? How? Tbh I'm getting the impression that you're lying about not feeling guilt. Sadism can come from many places, but lack of guilt is extraordinary. Especially since you claim you empathize and follow DT frame of behavior. So you work in your own self-interest, cause harm to another person in the process even although they did nothing to deserve it and feel... nothing? Not even a glimpse of "too bad, but they were too incompetent to take care of themselves?" Or "I wish there was another way to achieve this, but no use crying over spilled milk?" Nothing?

Btw psychopaths also feel emotions, that's a common misconception. They just don't have the ability of affective empathy (instinctively catching and copying other's feelings). They can have cognitive empathy, however, which is accessing empathy through focus (if you try to empathize, you can, bit it won't happen by accident, to say so).

eventually after getting into Nietzeche, and more importantly understanding him

lol so true, I read some of him some 4 years ago, but I still don't understand a lot of it and have lost the motivation to decypher it. I was having an existential crisis back then, so it made sense that I put a lot of effort, but now I don't and with only curiosity motivating me I find it's much less likely I'll engage myself in his writing again anytime soon.

My empathy is perhaps confusing. I've only gotten more empathetic as time goes on. But that feeds my sadism further, I feel people's pain and suffering more and I enjoy it more. I also enjoy their pleasure and joy more too.

I can somewhat identify with this. I don't enjoy open-ended expressions of negative emotions, but I do find enjoyment in people properly responding to strong negative emotions. But it doesn't make me want to inflict harm on them or wish that they're harmed. But I do like watching them stand back up, to say so, even although they feel miserable while doing so, perhaps because I know it'll make them stronger and make their future more enjoyable on the positive spectrum.

But I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with how you feel, but that's as far as I'm able to understand it.

Oh, actually, I may know an emotion that comes a bit closer. I have this general fascination with the human condition which makes me able to appreciate emotions from the entire spectrum, as well as deeds from those I consider the most immoral to the ultimate, idealistic morality (won't say altruism because I don't believe it exists). I kind of see beauty in them in the sense that they're all a part of existence and part of the potential of my own mind. But that doesn't mean I enjoy bad things happening to people, again. I'm a high-functioning social animal and thus happiness around me causes happiness in me and vice-versa. It's a bit odd to explain, I bugged out in trying to understand how do I enjoy it and don't at the same time.

I surprise the fuck out of people irl often enough when I reveal parts of myself, but I suppose keeping an image that is societally acceptable is a must when you think like I do.

Yeah, I'd be absolutely delighted to meet a sadist with no sense of guilt in person. You'll find that having a sense of morality and counting on other's to have it is a pretty effective way of living in groups. Reveal that you don't tick the same way and people will obviously not want you in their group. I would disassociate myself immediately if you told me most of this stuff in person. Even my curiosity probably wouldn't get the better of me, and that's saying a lot in my case.

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

To be clear, I'm not actually a psychopath. I feel empathy and emotions deeply.

But you're a non-sexual sadist and you don't feel guilt or any inclination to follow morality? How? Tbh I'm getting the impression that you're lying about not feeling guilt. Sadism can come from many places, but lack of guilt is extraordinary. Especially since you claim you empathize and follow DT frame of behavior. So you work in your own self-interest, cause harm to another person in the process even although they did nothing to deserve it and feel... nothing? Not even a glimpse of "too bad, but they were too incompetent to take care of themselves?" Or "I wish there was another way to achieve this, but no use crying over spilled milk?" Nothing?

I wouldn't call my sadism non sexual, it very much can be.

At best, sometimes I'll feel what seems like an echo of my guilt from the past. But, when that does happen on the rare occasion ending that feeling is easy.

I'm more likely to feel logically guilty, like I should have known better, but I don't feel emotionally guilty if that makes sense. I would feel guilty for not accurately predicting or knowing how things would go, as opposed to feeling bad for the behavior itself. I experienced this once earlier this year, mainly cause my SO reacted completely unexpectedly to my behavior.

Btw psychopaths also feel emotions, that's a common misconception. They just don't have the ability of affective empathy (instinctively catching and copying other's feelings). They can have cognitive empathy, however, which is accessing empathy through focus (if you try to empathize, you can, bit it won't happen by accident, to say so).

Hmmm. I definitely have cognitive empathy, I was not making a distinction between it and affective empathy. My cognitive empathy is what I think of as empathy, what I rely on and use heavily with people.

I think I can have affective empathy if I really try, but usually I don't, or try and choose not to. Typically if I do feel someone's emotions at all I don't really care to do anything about it and am not compelled by it.

Like going to a funeral, what makes me sad is thinking about why a man I've never seen cry is crying, as opposed to being sad because everyone else is and is crying. When I'm at a funeral I act the part, but I could easily have a good time or be in a good mood, but know better than to act so.

eventually after getting into Nietzeche, and more importantly understanding him

lol so true, I read some of him some 4 years ago, but I still don't understand a lot of it and have lost the motivation to decypher it. I was having an existential crisis back then, so it made sense that I put a lot of effort, but now I don't and with only curiosity motivating me I find it's much less likely I'll engage myself in his writing again anytime soon.

Ah but he is so much fun. I still haven't even finished TSZ. I haven't revisited Nietzeche after getting into rp either, I plan to. His words on women before threw me off, now I see them as spot on.

My empathy is perhaps confusing. I've only gotten more empathetic as time goes on. But that feeds my sadism further, I feel people's pain and suffering more and I enjoy it more. I also enjoy their pleasure and joy more too.

I can somewhat identify with this. I don't enjoy open-ended expressions of negative emotions, but I do find enjoyment in people properly responding to strong negative emotions. But it doesn't make me want to inflict harm on them or wish that they're harmed. But I do like watching them stand back up, to say so, even although they feel miserable while doing so, perhaps because I know it'll make them stronger and make their future more enjoyable on the positive spectrum.

I wouldn't say I typically want to hurt people or see them be hurt either, logically doing so is usually petty or stupid. But if someone is being hurt, I enjoy their expressions of emotion, it's an opportunity to experience it without doing anything to them.

Your enjoyment seems to come from a more positive angle.

I love horror movies for this. Especially brutal ones. A great horror movie for me shows true human pain, suffering, agony, terror, horror. I love seeing blood in movies, like I literally feel myself drawing energy from it.

But I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with how you feel, but that's as far as I'm able to understand it.

Oh, actually, I may know an emotion that comes a bit closer. I have this general fascination with the human condition which makes me able to appreciate emotions from the entire spectrum, as well as deeds from those I consider the most immoral to the ultimate, idealistic morality (won't say altruism because I don't believe it exists). I kind of see beauty in them in the sense that they're all a part of existence and part of the potential of my own mind. But that doesn't mean I enjoy bad things happening to people, again. I'm a high-functioning social animal and thus happiness around me causes happiness in me and vice-versa. It's a bit odd to explain, I bugged out in trying to understand how do I enjoy it and don't at the same time.

Its like you appreciate that they're doing and experiencing human things, but you'd rather they not be immoral or feel negative things?

I don't like the concept of happiness. I find it used to control people, like an opiate.

I surprise the fuck out of people irl often enough when I reveal parts of myself, but I suppose keeping an image that is societally acceptable is a must when you think like I do.

Yeah, I'd be absolutely delighted to meet a sadist with no sense of guilt in person. You'll find that having a sense of morality and counting on other's to have it is a pretty effective way of living in groups. Reveal that you don't tick the same way and people will obviously not want you in their group. I would disassociate myself immediately if you told me most of this stuff in person. Even my curiosity probably wouldn't get the better of me, and that's saying a lot in my case.

Yeah, it's quite understandable. Society wouldn't function very well if most people didn't have empathy or morality.

Would you essentially be scared to trust me or have me in your life?

[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I wouldn't call my sadism non sexual, it very much can be.

Yes, but does it stem from your sexuality or is it just another way you can express it? Although I don't know much on it in general.

Hmmm. I definitely have cognitive empathy, I was not making a distinction between it and affective empathy. My cognitive empathy is what I think of as empathy, what I rely on and use heavily with people.

Yeah, that's a little-known fact about empathy. Exactly the same centers in the brain activate for either empathy, but when DT people are tested when they're just shown disturbing clips/asked to read about disturbing situations they don't react. But when they ask them to try and identify with the victim their brains react as a normal empathetic person would.

Ah but he is so much fun. I still haven't even finished TSZ. I haven't revisited Nietzeche after getting into rp either, I plan to. His words on women before threw me off, now I see them as spot on.

I, on the other hand, read only TSZ. Not a good starter, admittedly, it was just recommended to me by a librarian and I was 14-15 and knew nothing.

But if someone is being hurt, I enjoy their expressions of emotion, it's an opportunity to experience it without doing anything to them.

I enjoy this in fiction, but not in real life. I'd say it's pretty normal to enjoy it in fiction, but rare irl. But I suppose it's probably the same feeling. Kind of a hype for discovering a new extreme, I don't know.

Your enjoyment seems to come from a more positive angle.

Yup.

I love horror movies for this. Especially brutal ones. A great horror movie for me shows true human pain, suffering, agony, terror, horror. I love seeing blood in movies, like I literally feel myself drawing energy from it.

I don't like gore, because it usually tries to milk the fear of pain to no ends and gets old quickly. I like psychological horror, tho. I don't mind if it's mixed with gore if it has a strong paranoid component, for instance. But I'm usually not able to find horror movies that I like, they're either focused on gore or are more of thrillers filled with monsters.

Its like you appreciate that they're doing and experiencing human things, but you'd rather they not be immoral or feel negative things?

I don't know, to be honest. I don't think I'd rather they didn't do it. Well, at the same time I do wish they didn't and don't. Them doing it usually has a negative consequence for them and if they're my friends, that has negative consequence on me because I'll be dealing with them later and because I empathetically absorb their emotions. So I usually wish they wouldn't do it. But at the same time, even although on surface I seem angry with them or disappointed or whatever, if I'm honest with myself it kind of also pleases me. It's odd.

But then again, I don't think it's similar to what you feel. It's probably explainable through instincts. What they did probably instinctively pleases me, but I logically know it has negative consequences and my emotions are driven mainly by that logical component and fixation with those consequences.

I don't like the concept of happiness. I find it used to control people, like an opiate.

Are you going to tell me that you think it's a construction or something? I'm well aware it's used for manipulation, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Would you essentially be scared to trust me or have me in your life?

Yes, I suppose. Not only because I'd be afraid of your malicious intent, but because I can't read you. You don't work like me, nor are harmless enough for me to train into submission, like an animal. Therefore, I wouldn't be able to form expectations of you and act accordingly. And that's only if you don't do something dangerous, which I don't know if you would if there were no consequences.

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes, but does it stem from your sexuality or is it just another way you can express it? Although I don't know much on it in general.

I think it stems more from my dominant and aggressive attitude in general.

Yeah, that's a little-known fact about empathy. Exactly the same centers in the brain activate for either empathy, but when DT people are tested when they're just shown disturbing clips/asked to read about disturbing situations they don't react. But when they ask them to try and identify with the victim their brains react as a normal empathetic person would.

Are there no DT people whose brains activate for either empathy?

Are you mostly self taught regarding psychology?

I, on the other hand, read only TSZ. Not a good starter, admittedly, it was just recommended to me by a librarian and I was 14-15 and knew nothing.

On Truth and Lie in an Extra Moral sense was the first piece I read from him. No idea how I found it or why, Internet holes, you know how it goes. Changed how I saw language significantly.

Years later I read On The Genealogy of Morals, I couldn't have guessed how much I'd enjoy it and the impact it would have.

I don't like gore, because it usually tries to milk the fear of pain to no ends and gets old quickly. I like psychological horror, tho. I don't mind if it's mixed with gore if it has a strong paranoid component, for instance. But I'm usually not able to find horror movies that I like, they're either focused on gore or are more of thrillers filled with monsters.

I enjoy all sorts of horror, psychological horror is really fun too. Have you see It Follows, Under the Skin, The Babadook?

I don't know, to be honest. I don't think I'd rather they didn't do it. Well, at the same time I do wish they didn't and don't. Them doing it usually has a negative consequence for them and if they're my friends, that has negative consequence on me because I'll be dealing with them later and because I empathetically absorb their emotions. So I usually wish they wouldn't do it. But at the same time, even although on surface I seem angry with them or disappointed or whatever, if I'm honest with myself it kind of also pleases me. It's odd.

But then again, I don't think it's similar to what you feel. It's probably explainable through instincts. What they did probably instinctively pleases me, but I logically know it has negative consequences and my emotions are driven mainly by that logical component and fixation with those consequences.

Why do you think it instinctively pleases you?

Are you going to tell me that you think it's a construction or something? I'm well aware it's used for manipulation, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Well yes, it is a construction too. But worse is that once someone reaches the point of being happy and if being happy is a primary goal, then they have little reason to continue improving or growing. Valuing happiness leads to stagnation often enough.

Yes, I suppose. Not only because I'd be afraid of your malicious intent, but because I can't read you. You don't work like me, nor are harmless enough for me to train into submission, like an animal. Therefore, I wouldn't be able to form expectations of you and act accordingly. And that's only if you don't do something dangerous, which I don't know if you would if there were no consequences.

Simple enough. My biggest control is through logic. If I didn't control myself with logic, I'd be very unpredictable.

[–]Mentathiel1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are there no DT people whose brains activate for either empathy?

None, but they conducted all of the experiments on psychopathic inmates, so it might not hold true for more high-functioning DT people. Unfortunately, those are hard to diagnose, as they mostly have no wish to out themselves even if they realize they're different.

Are you mostly self taught regarding psychology?

Yeah. I had basic psychology in high school (cognitive processes, base emotions, what's a psychosis, Maslow, developmental psychology) and my ending paper for high school was on psychopathy, so I had to read a lot of studies and books on it, had to defend it in front of 3 psychologists. So that's kinda my forte, outside of that I'm hesitant to claim things for sure so quickly and even when it comes to that I'm not a psychologist and shouldn't diagnose people, but I am curious on the matter, so I can't help myself.

Have you see It Follows, Under the Skin, The Babadook?

No, but It Follows and The Babadook seem interesting, I'm gonna watch them. What's Under the Skin about? They seem to have gone the 'let's be mysterious and hide the entire premise, Scarlett's selling the movie anyway' approach with the trailer.

Why do you think it instinctively pleases you?

I don't know, it just feels kinda primal. In some situations I can deduce what it is (basically female instincts regarding different things), but sometimes it's really out of place.

For instance, without going into details how and why, one of my friends once got tased 6 times in a row. I still remember hearing him scream. And while I hated the situation and how we got into it and the guilt and pain he felt after I somehow still liked that it happened. And I tried to rationalize it through learning from it, it being a bonding experience, finding how I react to high stress, little time situations, but feel like that's not all there is. Although now that I think about it, maybe it was female instincts again, male disposability and him being a scape goat for the rest of us.

Maybe I'm just an adrenaline junkie? Or maybe it's a coping strategy for things I'm afraid of? I'm not sadistic at all, if anything I'm more masochistic.

Not sure, all I know is that it's hidden under 10 levels of rationalization if it's not directed at fiction and it's similar to excitement or hype.

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What is the point of being married to someone who won't listen to good advice

That's not RP.

won't do his share of household chores ("choreplay is beta")

Because you care about him, and it makes you feel good to free up his time for pursuits that ultimately help you.

~~secretly~~ wants to fuck any random slut because of his ~~obsession with being seen as desirable~~ [nature]

doesn't actually love you [the way you love him]

is with you because you're a convenient set of holes, holds the power to destroy you financially and emotionally on his way out, and doesn't want to have kids because of an overwhelming fear of being cucked

That isn't exactly red pill, but it is a logical result of an incomplete understanding and utilization of the tools it offers.

Red Pill men have ~~truly destroyed traditional marriage in their zombie obedience to their own dicks~~ [responded appropriately to 3rd wave feminism]

It just doesn't work in the opposite like you hoped it would; it's a false equivalence, and has no place in serious discussions.

BTW I've never met a feminist who refused to do chores "because patriarchy" whaaaaaat?

I guess you can speak for all of them now, huh?

[–]questioningwomandetached from society 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]InformalCriticismProbably Red 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Refer to false equivalence #1 in this diatribe:

What is the point of being married to someone who won't listen to good advice

No educated/intelligent alpha turns down good opportunity, vagina or not, you will have his ear if you speak sense. Just don't speak nonsense and you will find a collaborative effort.

I was just having a related conversation this morning to the guy who sent me TRP articles for months and months before my ex turned on me - only after could I look back and see TRP would have cleared the fog and given me a safe path out. We were talking about the solipsism that makes up the female condition. The awareness of the cause of emotion almost never matters; the present emotional state is good enough for the fact that it exists, and what caused it doesn't factor in. How this relates is, women need to communicate why they want something - most of the time, the only thing communicated is that they want something, period. It's solipsism that belies self awareness and responsibility of self on a very real level.

I concluded some more extreme thoughts based on those facts, but that's just man-talk darlin'.

TL;DR: I don't mind if you have a vagina, just don't expect me to listen if you talk out of it.

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First off, the first paragraph of this post really doesn't "sound a lot like a red piller". But putting that aside, most red pull guys don't see the point of marriage, either. But apparently, a lot of women out there want to marry guys who exhibit Red Pill qualities, and a lot of women out there take a big fat dump on guys who do the exact opposite and take orders, do chores, fail to be attractive to other women, and so on -- especially the wives of these guys.

I can't explain why women are so fucking stupid, but as long as women keep rewarding bad behavior in men by fucking them and disincentivizing good behavior by pissing all over it, The Red Pill works. The very second women stop fucking guys like this and start eagerly shoving the dicks of scrawny, timid, respectful computer nerds with dead end cubicle jobs into their mouths, The Red Pill will cease to exist. Or, it will become all about how to be the most scrawny, timid, respectful nerd on the planet to maximize your chances of getting laid.

[–]Titaniu 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]cra1pill the color of heartiste's shiv 10 points11 points12 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Is it bad behavior for men to go for thin, conventionally attractive women too? How dare men go for women they find attractive! clutches pearls

But by making this argument aren't you admitting that confidence, outcome independence, not worrying about being 'respectful' or doing chores, is attractive?

The funny thing is, in your reply here you succeed at translating the gender of the argument over - the equivalent of a confident, ZFG, has-his-shit-together guy is a thin, conventionally attractive woman. And it proves the red pill point.

It seems like you are almost accidentally admitting the truth about sexual dimorphism.

Your original post OTOH, is tone deaf to sexual dimorphism. A sloppy translation from one gender to another of an already not entirely woke random redpill rant. It could be fisked apart line by line.

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Your satire is duly noted OP. And I agree with most of it, if you analyze it from your point of view. Yes it can take the form of satire just like any other statement in the world. Words can be traversed and reversed and commingled and conjoined and replaced to have all kinds of fun with any given statement.

This is of course, not to say that the satire indeed does inspire some very heartfelt and emotional answers. So I reverently offer you an LOL. LOL. hehe.

And yes, in some of those answers, you can see the false implementation of TRP and from my angle, the reverence with which some guys view it. That in itself is funny, but you can't blame some of the guys because each person has their way of dealing with their own lives and some people just have a need to revere something in order to be able to make it work for them. So no shame there.

I've been an ignored member of TRP for a while methinks because of my very own opinion about what TRP represents to me, rather than to a whole. To me TRP is about the makings of a man, and in no uncertain way, completely removed from the makings of a woman. I celebrate the differences between men and women and celebrate the women that see it. I have no time for those who don't.

House cleaning has been a hot issue here. never for me. In any case where I have been married in the past 20 years. The whole of the expenses of the house have been my responsibility. I do not accept or ask for money from my SO and therefore this argument has been moot. It has been her responsibility to keep the house. Funnily enough, for the past 20 years there has always been a maid/housekeeper paid for by me alone. Having said all this, I have always maintained that if I ever were to have to do housework myself, I would live alone.

In my opinion, a woman makes the home, she provides that ambiance where she is the sole creator of a home. She nurtures and takes care of the inhabitants of the home and provides them a safe place to grow up, live and become good human beings. If she wants to. otherwise, it is a toss up and I have no idea how to distribute the work and responsibilities and really don't care how it's done. I have no qualms about an SO working, but I also think that any man, in order to make demands of his SO, must be willing and able to support their home in whole. If she expects me to do the housework, then she pays for everything and that is not my personal idea of an ideal situation. I know, I am old school.

Why don't I care? Because the institution of marriage as we know it, is dead. There are no longer any soundly based reasons to join in unholy matrimony. Women want status and they want the security that binding to a hard working man gives them. But they will still swing.

Now I am going to be honest here, at the sake of being ridiculed. Men are idiots. We all are. Women hold all the cards, we play with the cards we are given by them. If you analyze any LTR, you will find that the man has been pretty much erased. And he now lives to provide food and entertainment. Without getting too far into it, now we can usher in The Red Pill.

Too much importance is given to infidelity by our society in general. Way more than it deserves. But infidelity is nothing but a lack of respect. if I cheat, I am in essence disrespecting myself, ditto for the woman. It is all about social hypocrisy and an excuse for people to make changes to their lives when they get tired of their spouse. I call it hypocrisy because generally, people cannot for some reason admit to themselves or anyone else that they are no longer actively interested in their relationship. Or there is something wrong. So they go out and have their fantasies fulfilled by someone else. In any case, in my own case, infidelity has never been important.

If you've made it this far, I thank you for reading my drivel. And for the sake of not making this wall any higher than it already is, I will end this with a call to constructive discussion. After all, this should be all about everyone finding their way and not comparing dick or clit sizes.

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won't do his share of household chores ("choreplay is beta")

When you look at the amount of time spent doing paid work, housework, and child care in this example you'll see the women are doing 61.3 hours of work a week to a mans 60.5. The ratio is 50.3 % to 49.6% Edit Source

Is that what your up in arms about? Less than a percent of your time? Only 15% of women are earning more than their husbands. The rest of the 40% of households that have a woman as the breadwinner are single moms. Sauce.

Women are marrying men that make more money and work more hours. A sector of the population has decided to make these wives angry that their husbands are doing a tinsey bit less housework.

This is why redpill men don't want to get married. A lot of men don't feel like their women appreciate their extra time at work, being under the stress of producing for someone else, while the women folk get to spend time with their kids and friends.

Moreover, it seems like the men never get any credit for cleaning the garage, shoveling snow, getting the wife's car maintained. Its all about how many dished get done and how many pieces of laundry get folded.

When it comes to splitting the bills its only fair that the person earns 33% more pays 33% of the bill, right? Thats how most households work. Men work more, support their families with the labor and people reduce it to choreplay

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Moreover, it seems like the men never get any credit for cleaning the garage, shoveling snow, getting the wife's car maintained. Its all about how many dished get done and how many pieces of laundry get folded.

This is my biggest gripe right here. You never, ever read a woman complaining about her husband's lack of effort when it comes to household chores and then enumerating those sorts of chores as examples. It's always stuff that hits her radar only, stuff that only she feels responsible for. That other stuff guys should be doing because, well, guys.

My wife complains a lot about how little I do around the house, but our whole house and grounds would collapse in a week if I weren't here. But that is because I'm responsible for a lot more than just the obvious stuff like dishes and vacuuming. Stuff that she never even thinks about, let alone has figured out how to do.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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Whoa, whoa, whoa. I wasn't implying that married men were sitting on their asses doing nothing. My guess is in most working family households a higher percentage of men have more demanding jobs and/or more time consuming jobs. Also, I just looked up the source, and I was wrong about that, it wasn't a %, it was how many hours per week. Here's what it says:

Parents’ time with their children continues to go up. Fathers have nearly tripled their time with their children (from 2.5 hours in 1965 to 7.3 hours per week in 2011). After a decline in the 1970s and ’80s, mothers’ time with their children has also increased, and today’s mothers spend more time with their children than mothers did in the 1960s. Despite the increase in child care time among fathers, American mothers spend about twice as much time with their children as fathers do.17 In 2011, the average child care time is 7.3 hours per week for fathers and 13.5 hours per week for mothers.

See: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/03/14/chapter-4-how-mothers-and-fathers-spend-their-time/

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What. You cannot be just going about your daily routine completely normally while babysitting a toddler. For one, half those activities you mentioned aren't going to be babyproofed. Why the fuck are you bringing a toddler to a gym? Where is the baby going to go? To some sort of kiddy corner with a different babysitter? Because that's not you babysitting. You can't be swimming laps or fishing with a toddler in tow unless you're actively holding the child.

Idk what sort of lethargic toddlers you've babysat but unless you're actively watching/holding onto the kid while doing these things or the kid is watching TV and you've got an eye on them or they are napping, you can't just go about your normal business with a 2 year old. They don't understand discipline and they don't understand what they should/should not be getting into.

Babysitting a toddler requires a lot more active attention than that.

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And isn't a "high beta" basically an alpha that one way or another "settled" into domestic bliss?

I actually agree with you on your premise. But, if a man isn't interested in LTR/marriage, why should he aim for high beta? Why not go full alpha and get all you can out of life? If you consider that going "full alpha" may not have many negative consequences long term its no surprise men shoot for that star.

I aimed straight for beta fux, because as you pointed out, it's a decent strategy for a man that wants a LTR/marriage. However, it comes with its own set of risks and considering what a shit sandwich legal marriage is for men in the West, I'm not surprised more men aren't signing up for the build a better beta program. And make no mistake, that is indeed what I see your suggestion as. It isn't making men into alphas, its making men into BETTER betas, which is to say good little producers that are just interesting enough to keep a woman's attention long term. Might be great for women and society, but I'm not so sure its in men's best interests as things are now. I signed up for it voluntarily, but I don't blame a single man alive for seeing it as a crap shoot at best and skipping it completely. I'd LOVE to be able to support marriage/family formation/etc, but really can't in good faith. Best I can do is make sure they know the odds are slanted in favor of the house, and let them place the bets they feel are appropriate for their own lives.

Seems most men, when presented with "happily ever after" and "pussy slayer" go for the latter. shrug

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

And isn't a "high beta" basically an alpha that one way or another "settled" into domestic bliss?

Sort of. High beta is BF. Displays good alpha traits and good beta traits and minimal bad alpha/beta traits.

But, if a man isn't interested in LTR/marriage, why should he aim for high beta? Why not go full alpha and get all you can out of life? If you consider that going "full alpha" may not have many negative consequences long term its no surprise men shoot for that star.

He's perfectly fine not too, but this thread is about marriage. Hence why I said that.

it isn't making men into alphas, its making men into BETTER betas, which is to say good little producers that are just interesting enough to keep a woman's attention long term.

To me it's the men you want to fuck like a porn star and still go home to each night and yes, I mean this long term. Good beta traits like providership/protection mean very little to me, personally, because I can provide/protect myself.

[–]hawkeaglejesus 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]hawkeaglejesus 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–] hawkeaglejesus 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (11 children) | Copy Link

[–] sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 2 points 3 points 4 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

I can only assume you're trying to determine his SMV. Objectively, my SMV is slightly above his. I'd say I'm solidly 1 above him (he would agree with me about this) although that's changing a little bit because we are getting older (and I agree men get more attractive as they age).

He makes more $$ than me currently but I have vastly higher earning potential than he does (he's reached his pinnacle whereas I have even begun to). Also, he's quitting his job soonish and will likely make significantly lower than what he's currently making (and lower than what I am making now).

He is 6'0", I am 5'6". He is 33, I am 30. He is not bald and he is very thin (he's a triathlete). He does not lift and does not have a muscular body (which is what I prefer).

But trust me, he is most def not chad. While I think he's the sexiest/most attractive man ever, he has never been some ladies man with all the chicks drooling over him. My SMV is higher than his although again, not by much.

Now - explain why you wanted to know these things?

[–] hawkeaglejesus 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (9 children) | Copy Link

These things are the basis for hypergamy. Women prefer taller, older, wealthier, more attractive men.

As you demonstrated, when asked what women are attracted to, you only list character traits. And while these qualities certainly do factor into the overall equation, the truth is they are but minor qualities that are easily eclipsed by the major physical traits I described.

Too often the BP response here is "Well duh, of course women like attractive wealthy tall men!" which is funny because that's exactly what TRP teaches and something the BP side never admits to unless backed into a corner. If these are the determining factors, why not open with them rather than hiding them until you're forced to admit the truth?

Why does the list you provided not have any of the traits I provided, even though you agree that they are crucial?

Because the truth is a tall attractive wealthy older man can have none of the good qualities and all of the bad ones and he would still be more successful with women than a short unattractive poor young guy who has all of the good qualities and none of the bad ones.

If your husband had the same personality, but was 5'5", 21, receding hairline, and chubby you would not have married him or at least would not be as attracted.

I'm not saying that the other things you listed don't matter, it's just that they matter less, and even though ideally you want to cultivate both physical and character traits, a confident affectionate fatty who does the laundry and takes care of the kids will never be as attractive as the violent aggressive attractive rich asshole. (Note - attraction =/= suitability for marriage i.e AF/BB)

So if a male friend comes to you and says, "I want women to find me attractive" if your advice does not include lift, groom, be social, and be professionally successful (TRP) you are doing that man a disservice. As you've mentioned the ideal man is one who has a balance of both alpha and beta qualities, but the problem is the BP side advocates too heavily in favor of beta qualities and barely at all (or often even demonizes) alpha qualities.

And it's this constant barrage of enforcing beta traits while omitting the importance of alpha traits that is leaving the current generation of men completely unprepared for the dating world. Young boys are fed this information from the day they enter school. They're told to be caring and sensitive and to be nice to girls, that you always have to be a gentleman which is synonymous with being a doormat. Boys are taught to self-sacrifice for girls at every turn instead of caring about their own needs.

So when the BP response is a condescending "Well duh, doesn't everybody know this?" the answer is no, they don't. Because every step of the way boys are taught that exhibiting alpha traits is bad, it's shallow and it makes you an asshole.

He makes more $$ than me currently but I have vastly higher earning potential than he does (he's reached his pinnacle whereas I have even begun to).

Do you guys not want kids? Your fertility will run out within 5 years so assuming you're planning on having kids it is inevitable that you'll be dependent on your husband for income. Also, do you think you'll just be able to jump back in to your career where you left off without any kind of setback? If you're going childfree my argument is null, but pregnancy is what kills many women's careers. Even if you do manage to maintain your career post-birth, who is going to raise your child while you're working?

Also, he's quitting his job soonish and will likely make significantly lower than what he's currently making (and lower than what I am making now).

Why? Is this something he wants to do, or is it a sacrifice he is making for the sake of your marriage/family?

He is 6'0", I am 5'6". He is 33, I am 30. He is not bald and he is very thin (he's a triathlete). He does not lift and does not have a muscular body (which is what I prefer).

Lower BF% is more attractive than more muscles. Also, you admitted to a core RP tenet: alpha trait > beta trait. Would you be more attracted to your husband if he grew more muscles or did more dishes?

But trust me, he is most def not chad. While I think he's the sexiest/most attractive man ever, he has never been some ladies man with all the chicks drooling over him.

Beta/Chad is not binary, it is a scale. He is a tall, attractive, fit, older, relatively wealthy man. And you've mentioned he has alpha personality traits, so by definition he is more of a Chad than a Beta. Also, if you think he's the sexiest/most attractive man ever is it reaching far to say that other women might think the same? Deep down you like having what other women want.

My SMV is higher than his although again, not by much.

How long have you been with him and how long have you been married? How many men have you slept with before him? Were you looking for a husband when you were 18-22 or were you having a fun phase where you "discovered yourself" and were told you "didn't have to settle down" while you "cultivated life experiences"?

Objectively, my SMV is slightly above his. I'd say I'm solidly 1 above him (he would agree with me about this) although that's changing a little bit because we are getting older (and I agree men get more attractive as they age).

Again, you're dispensing TRP truth without realizing it. You're approaching The Wall and realize that your attractiveness is going into decline while his is only going to rise, so you locked him down while you had the chance because you know that if you waited until you were 35 your chances of securing commitment from him would be significantly lower.

[–] sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You cannot take the most obvious things about human attraction (women like tall attractive men who have their shit together) and simply place it in a bucket to express the meaningless platitude "TRP CONFIRMED!!" This is a blue pill belief as much as it is TRP.

Second, 3 years older than me is an "older man"? Lol, no. We met in college. We dated. We broke up for 3 years. We got back together. We married. He isn't "wealthy" and you can't ignore parts of what I revealed to you (yes he makes more $$ than I do now) and ignore the others (I have far more earning potential than he does).

If your husband had the same personality, but was 5'5", 21, receding hairline, and chubby you would not have married him or at least would not be as attracted.

I cannot control who I am and who I am not attracted to. I am generally not attracted to balding dudes 9 years younger than. As to his height and weight, those are less important to me, in fact, when we got back together, he was chubby. But please, ignore that fact since it appears you only want to cherry pick what fits your narrative.

a confident affectionate fatty who does the laundry and takes care of the kids will never be as attractive as the violent aggressive attractive rich asshole. (Note - attraction =/= suitability for marriage i.e AF/BB)

No, I have never been attracted to "violent aggressive" men. Never. I am a high dominant woman and I don't like men who try to dominate/control me, much less men who are violent and aggressive towards me. My husband is not alpha, he is high beta. He is the ideal man. I love him for his good beta traits as much as his good alpha traits. I am sexually attracted to him for his good beta traits as much as his good alpha traits.

So if a male friend comes to you and says, "I want women to find me attractive" if your advice does not include lift, groom, be social, and be professionally successful (TRP) you are doing that man a disservice. As you've mentioned the ideal man is one who has a balance of both alpha and beta qualities, but the problem is the BP side advocates too heavily in favor of beta qualities and barely at all (or often even demonizes) alpha qualities.

First of all, I am not doling out the meaningless advice you are criticizing. I was asked what type of man I want (and married) and I answered. Your barrage of "what ifs" is what is meaningless here. And I don't demonize good alpha qualities. I already stated my man has alpha qualities. He just has the good ones and a minimal to nil amount of the bad ones. If he had more bad alpha traits I would not want him, period.

Your fertility will run out within 5 years so assuming you're planning on having kids it is inevitable that you'll be dependent on your husband for income. Also, do you think you'll just be able to jump back in to your career where you left off without any kind of setback? If you're going childfree my argument is null, but pregnancy is what kills many women's careers. Even if you do manage to maintain your career post-birth, who is going to raise your child while you're working?

Oh please. You know nothing about me, my future plans, my career, the firm that I work for or it's culture. No, I will not be giving up my career, no my child will not suffer because of a working mom, no my career will not dwindle because of kids. This is TRP wishful thinking so you can box women into the lifestyle you think they should be having and/or hamstering that their choices are limited to mother vs career woman, mutually exclusive of one another.

Why? Is this something he wants to do, or is it a sacrifice he is making for the sake of your marriage/family?

It was a joint agreement to move to a location that is closer to my family and a wonderful career move for me. He was fully supportive and on board (oh so beta...).

Would you be more attracted to your husband if he grew more muscles or did more dishes?

Less attracted if he got more muscles. Zero change as to doing more dishes lmao.

so by definition he is more of a Chad than a Beta.

No he's not. TRP uses watered down definitions of alpha/beta. A true alpha is far too self-interested for me to want to date one, much less marry one. My husband is def not a chad, lol.

Also, if you think he's the sexiest/most attractive man ever is it reaching far to say that other women might think the same? Deep down you like having what other women want.

I could give two shits whether other women want him. You can call my a liar but I know myself better than you do. I've been with the man for 12 years (minus a 3 year break) since I was 18. I know his entire history and love life. I've been there when he's lost weight, gained weight, been less attractive, been more attractive.

You're approaching The Wall and realize that your attractiveness is going into decline while his is only going to rise, so you locked him down while you had the chance because you know that if you waited until you were 35 your chances of securing commitment from him would be significantly lower.

This is such bullshit. First, I'm post-wall. Second, we got together when I was 18 and after the break up we got back together at the height of my peak SMV at 24 (according to TRP).

You cannot sit here and say at the one hand my husband is a chad/alpha which is why I'm attracted to him and then on the other say I locked him down because he's beta. That's contradictory.

The only "truth" I am dispensing is that I find both alpha and beta traits attractive sexually and for marriage. A good balance of the good ones on both sides. You can't pick and choose which traits to emphasize when it suits your TRP narrative and ignore the others.

[–] TW_CountryMusic bluepill redneck 2 points 3 points 4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] hawkeaglejesus 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago * (4 children) | Copy Link

You cannot take the most obvious things about human attraction (women like tall attractive men who have their shit together)

It's not obvious. If it was TRP wouldn't exist.

Second, 3 years older than me is an "older man"?

"3 years older" "older man", do you not understand grammar? Not older in the euphemistic "grandpa" way, but still illustrating the point that women prefer older men vs younger men (as you yourself admit further down).

We met in college. We dated. We broke up for 3 years. We got back together. We married.

How many other guys did you fuck in those 3 years, who dumped who, and at what age did you get married?

He isn't "wealthy"

How much did your engagement ring cost? Median US income is $50k, so if he makes $50k-$100k, he's relatively wealthy.

and you can't ignore parts of what I revealed to you (yes he makes more $$ than I do now) and ignore the others (I have far more earning potential than he does).

I'm of the belief that one in the hand is worth two in the bush, but if you're going to keep hammering on about this then at least tell us how much your husband makes, how much your "potential" is, and how long it's going to take you to get there.

I cannot control who I am and who I am not attracted to. I am generally not attracted to balding dudes 9 years younger than.

You can't be anti something while agreeing with the core tenet of it. It's like calling yourself a vegetarian while eating a steak. As you've said, "women like tall attractive men who have their shit together" so this is what TRP tells men to focus on. You just admitted that if your husband was the same person, but balding and younger, you wouldn't find him attractive.

No, I have never been attracted to "violent aggressive" men. Never.

Just FYI, sometimes "you" does not mean you as an individual, but you as in women. And it has been proven over and over and over again that you can be a violent felon and women will still want you if you're physically attractive.

First of all, I am not doling out the meaningless advice you are criticizing... And I don't demonize good alpha qualities.

Again, "you" as in women. As in why was "Dad Bod" ever thing if it is unequivocally true that muscular men are more attractive? As in what the fuck is this shit? “Looking too fit can come across as self-centered” (see article). I've seen plenty of women vilify attractive men with the general theme being that they're narcissists, assholes, and cheaters. Our teachers, female friends, and mothers all tell impressionable young boys "don't be like that alpha, be <list of beta traits> if you want girls to like you"

No, I will not be giving up my career, no my child will not suffer because of a working mom, no my career will not dwindle because of kids.

So you're putting your job above the health of your child, as well as your own.

Also, when it comes time to give out raises and promotions do you think they'll give it to the tired, cranky, depressed mother who has to leave in the middle of the day to go to the doctor or to pick up her child from child care, or the person who is always at work, energized, ambitious, and is not afraid to stay late?

From the perspective of a manager, if you had to promote one of two people, knowing that one just relocated recently, is dependent on health insurance and income, and is going to stay around longer vs a single unattached person who is willing to uproot their life, quit their job, and move to work for a competitor, who would you work harder to keep? They don't have to give you a promotion because it's not like you're going to quit and move elsewhere. And if it comes down to who to fire/skip over a raise do you think they won't consider, "Hmm, she has a husband to support her so she doesn't need it as badly."

And you say TRPers are the ones with wishful thinking?

It was a joint agreement to move to a location that is closer to my family and a wonderful career move for me. He was fully supportive and on board (oh so beta...)

But did he bring it up or did you? Did he say, "Honey, I want to quit my job, pack up our home, and move to be closer to your family so you can have a chance at a better career." and you agreed, or was it the other way around? It sounds to me like he made a personal sacrifice for your wellbeing. How does he benefit from this "joint agreement"? Tell me, did you explicitly say to your husband that you would be perfectly fine if he said no, that you wouldn't resent him or make him feel guilty for caring about his own needs vs yours, and that you would not withdraw sex or affection? Because if not, you've emotionally and sexually blackmailed this man into agreeing.

Zero change as to doing more dishes lmao.

Again, you're confirming TRP. Doing chores doesn't make a man more attractive. Despite women publicly claiming this.

A true alpha is far too self-interested for me to want to date one, much less marry one. My husband is def not a chad, lol.

But he's tall, attractive, fit, older than you, confident, sociallty apt, and makes good money right? Definitely not a chad. It's like you completely skipped over the part where I explain that it's a scale. Also, https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

we got together when I was 18 and after the break up we got back together at the height of my peak SMV at 24 (according to TRP).

The numbers aren't exact. Some women peak 20-25 and hit the Wall as early as 27 or as late as 35+, the other crucial factor is at what age did you actually get married? Most women get married as they're approaching the wall 25-29, so unless you married at your peak I don't see what point you're trying to make.

You cannot sit here and say at the one hand my husband is a chad/alpha which is why I'm attracted to him and then on the other say I locked him down because he's beta.

No, you locked him down because he is an alpha. Period. Women will always want an alpha over a beta, but they are willing to settle down for a beta, if their SMV is not high enough to secure an alpha's commitment.

The only "truth" I am dispensing is that I find both alpha and beta traits attractive sexually and for marriage

Right. AF/BB. Alpha traits sexually, beta traits for marriage. You're attracted to different ones during different stages of your menstrual cycle

A good balance of the good ones on both sides.

Ah yes, the ideal Alpha Bucks. The perfect man who is sexually arousing and able to provide comfort/security. We are in agreement. This is core to TRP.

Can you please provide some anti-TRP arguments that don't sound like you read them off the TRP sidebar?

[–] sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] hawkeaglejesus 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Then don't answer the personal questions. Answer the ones aimed at women as a whole.

Half the shit you say is TRP isn't even exclusive to TRP--it's common sense. But keep telling yourself it only exists in TRP.

I never claimed that this information exists only in TRP, just that TRP is true. And by stating that the information within TRP is "common sense" you've proved that assertion correct, so thank you.

You're doing a fantastic job of defending women by becoming emotional and playing the victim card in response to a request for facts and statements backed by several sources.

Also, yet another reminder you're proving TRP through your behavior. The TRP motto is "Watch her actions, not her words." Just yesterday this was posted: https://archive.is/9xF6U

Women are Children

So I wanted to write this up to serve as a quick reminder, you are dealing with emotionally and intellectually stunted people. Let's explore and analyze these following phrases and experiences:

The shut down

When confronted with something difficult, overwhelming, or confusing, you notice she shuts down. She cannot process things, she is unable to react. It can be extremely frustrating, especially during a conversation that might be entirely logical and rational to you, yet she goes blank and unresponsive. You (or something/someone) have overwhelmed her simple mind, and now we must wait for her to re-emerge. If she does it properly, she will re-emerge potentially when the threat has passed, well after you (the adult) have taken care of things.

[–] sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Please point to one example of me playing a victim. And yeah when you blatantly cherrypick and mischaracterize what I say prepare to get the claws. No one enjoys being painted in a false and misleading light. If anything, you're the one being illogical because you're simply picking which parts you want to focus on, either intentionally or unintentionally misstating them, ignoring the others, and boxing them into whatever nifty TRP term you can find. Hooray for you, you can spout of TRP platitudes by the dozen. That does not for a productive or logical debate make.

No offense, but you come off as a PPD newb who is more interested in "winning" an anonymous internet argument than engaging in a good faith discussion.

Come back to me in 6 months when you want to discuss these issues with me in an intellectually honest manner. Until then, quit trying to bait me.

[–] hawkeaglejesus 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Please point to one example of me playing a victim.

"I am not going to respond to your mischaracterizations of me, my husband, my history and my life (which you know nothing about)"

All I did was respond to the information I was provided, and you decided to take it personally and make it out as if it was an attack against you. Also, notice how you've still failed to respond to the non-personal questions.

No one enjoys being painted in a false and misleading light.

So exchanging facts is "false" and "misleading". I asked what age did you get married at, how many sexual partners other than your husband have you had, your income levels, who initiated the move conversation, and provided a Mayo Clinic article stating that pregnancy risks increase with age.

Please do me courtesy of pointing out how I've been false and misleading. I don't disagree that I may have hurt your feelings, but let's stick to the facts ok?

If anything, you're the one being illogical because you're simply picking which parts you want to focus on, either intentionally or unintentionally misstating them, ignoring the others, and boxing them into whatever nifty TRP term you can find.

Can you provide some examples of me doing this? All I did was go line by line and answered each one of your assertions with a counterpoint of my own. Feel free to bring up whichever points you think I've intentionally ignored and I'll be happy to address them.

No offense, but you come off as a PPD newb who is more interested in "winning" an anonymous internet argument than engaging in a good faith discussion.

Hooray for you, you can spout of TRP platitudes by the dozen. That does not for a productive or logical debate make.

You know what does? Sticking to facts and addressing my argument instead of calling me names.

Come back to me in 6 months when you want to discuss these issues with me in an intellectually honest manner. Until then, quit trying to bait me.

Did...did you not even bother reading?

"When confronted with something difficult, overwhelming, or confusing, you notice she shuts down. She cannot process things, she is unable to react. It can be extremely frustrating, especially during a conversation that might be entirely logical and rational to you, yet she goes blank and unresponsive. You (or something/someone) have overwhelmed her simple mind, and now we must wait for her to re-emerge. If she does it properly, she will re-emerge potentially when the threat has passed, well after you (the adult) have taken care of things."

[–] SetConsumes Always Becoming 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sardonis70 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

And how many of those do you suspect are walking the earth right now?

More than TRP believes. And far more men have the potential to become BF if they choose to. But TRP doesn't encourage this now does it?

Which pretty much makes the case for why young men should just go full alpha to the best of their ability. Women don't want or need "providers" anymore, so trying to offer that is a chumps game.

Come on, you know providership/protection are not the only good beta traits that exist. Comforting, supportive, affectionate, intimate, thoughtful, considerate, willing to compromise/sacrifice, caring about your partner's needs/desires, these are all beta traits as well, which, when used in appropriate amounts (like don't way overdo it and become a doormat), absolutely make for a wonderful partner.

[–]sardonis70 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Comforting, supportive, affectionate, intimate, thoughtful, considerate, willing to compromise/sacrifice, caring about your partner's needs/desires,

OK sure, but none of those will inspire much sexual tension nor will it generate much raw sexual desire. That's the part many BPers seem to miss. I'm not implying I "hold out" on my wife with beta traits. Of course she partly in this marriage for those. However, I am in this marriage for a solid sex life as well as some other things, and unfortunately that means what SHE wants and what I want from the marriage are somewhat at odds. I'd love to be able to just treat my wife like a princess, but frankly that won't get me laid. I absolutely enjoy treating her well, and I love seeing her smile. The issue here being: how much "beta" is appropriate and how much "alpha" is required to keep things spicy. That's a balance each individual couple has to find I imagine. But for me, I don't have to work on the beta side of the equation, because my natural inclination is to "provide" in spades. Instead, I put primary focus on the more alpha side that generates sexual attraction and raw desire, because THAT is where I've lacked in the past. I wager that many/most men that find themselves in the 'sphere struggled with finding the same balance, either alone or with a partner. Add to that weak boundaries and covert contracts and you have the trifecta of failure.

So yes, I agree with you that a successful LTR/Marriage requires a mix of alpha/beta traits, but we probably differ on what we consider the "optimal" mix. If I have to error, I'll error on the side of too much alpha. It may upset my wife on occasion, but the makeup sex is usually pretty stellar. The last time through I ALWAYS defaulted to beta behavior, and I saw first hand where that got me. If I'm going to fail, I'll fail on my own damn terms this time.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] sardonis70 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Agreed. But overall, "alpha" traits are far more likely to get a man laid. What constitutes "good" or "bad" behavior is likely rather individual to each person's PoV, and based largely on their desires and goals.

Alpha = stuff that gets women "wet". (so to speak) Beta = stuff that will keep a woman around long term.

So the catch being most men (certainly all the ones I know) want to inspire "wetness" in their SO's, but the act of being married is in itself a bit of a "taming of the bad boy", so from the gate you're already at a bit of a detriment on that side of the equation. ALL the men I know fully expect to "provide", but are surprised to find out the sex part doesn't just work itself out as a RESULT of providing. Because I grew up believing if I did "my part", my wife would "do hers" and it would all go smoothly. Turns out I have to do "my part" as husband AND "my part" as the stud my wife is fucking at the same time, because there's really very little overlap between the two roles. And certainly "providing" for her has very little bearing on how sexual she is with me. Mostly? It has a huge affect on how "loving" she is towards me, but that only goes so far before a lack of sexual desire sours even that. Having a "loving" wife is pretty useless in my mind without the sex part. And like I said, the "sex" and "love" sides of the equation tend to conflict with each other an awful lot. So, for me it makes sense to concentrate on the sex part, since without it I'm not interested in the rest. (from the standpoint that to me being married without a solid sex life is pointless. Might as well be single and make due.)

[–] sublimemongrel Becky, Esq. (woman) 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Alpha = stuff that gets women "wet". (so to speak) Beta = stuff that will keep a woman around long term.

Again, and maybe this is just me and my experience, I need both to maintain both sexual attraction and a desire to stay and share my life with someone. Too much beta just as too much alpha = not sexually attracted. And while I agree, in general, the good alpha traits more more sexually attractive, I also believe that some good beta traits are sexually attractive.

For example, when my husband does something a little above and beyond the norm to make me feel special/beautiful/good/whatever, that makes me feel loved, and that feeling, in and of itself, can make me intensely sexually attracted to him in that moment. But I'm not disagreeing with you that, in general, good alpha traits are probably universally sexually attractive than simply having good beta traits. Sex and love go hand in hand for me. Probably moreso than for you.

[–] sardonis70 1 point 2 points 3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Sex and love go hand in hand for me. Probably moreso than for you.

Haha. For better or worse probably not as much as you'd suspect. I know there's a name for it, but suffice it to say I don't find myself sexually attracted (enough to actually have sex) with someone until I get to know them and form some kind of connection. Which is probably part of my problem. I found it difficult to separate "love" stuff from "attraction" stuff when I found myself in the 'sphere because for most of my life it was all kinda bound together. I still operate that way, but I've learned to at least logically separate "love" from "attraction", and that's helped a great deal in focusing specific effort where it is required.

when my husband does something a little above and beyond the norm to make me feel special/beautiful/good/whatever, that makes me feel loved, and that feeling, in and of itself, can make me intensely sexually attracted to him in that moment.

I actually understand this and believe its true. However, how often do you reason he can really pull this off? I'm looking for a LOT more sex than once in awhile when I do something "above and beyond", so as much as I appreciate that on occasion bringing the beta CAN get my wife wound up, there are FAR more reliable methods at my disposal. To be frank we knock one out minimum 4 nights a week, and usually get a few 'twofers' in over the weekends. THAT is the kind of volume I'm looking for, and you just can't get that by being exceptionally "beta". Does that mean I dislike those occasional romps because I triggered her "love" response? Hell no! I love those! But I'm not waiting for those few occasions to get laid.

Believe me when I say: if beta traits got me laid enthusiastically on the regular, I'd have zero to complain about in the sex department. Unfortunately, 'beta' can get you laid, but its damned hard to rely on, and in most cases actually works AGAINST your goal of getting some. I'm not at all thrilled about it, but its the reality I'm faced with.

[–]StickItInTheToilet 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Leeloooooooooooooooo -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nomdplumeFormer Alpha 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

How would you say an aspiring sexual loser accomplish that?

I should note that I personally define "alpha" as "top of the social hierarchy; a powerful, socially dominant, perhaps even intimidating man; a high-status leader who commands respect and admiration from those around him", and I would argue that there is a not insignificant number of RPers who share my definition, despite the "alpha = characterized by being reckless, erratic, impulsive and violent" contingent. I get their argument, but I think it is a limited view of masculinity and dominance.

So I think that my "alpha" might be some people's "high beta", but really, it doesn't matter, since most "betas" who come to RP will probably never be able to authentically be that latter version of "alpha" and will probably wind up as "high betas" (if they have an interest in actually improving rather than dropping out and becoming cynical antisocial misanthropes). And "high betas" can still avoid marriage and get laid on the regular if that is the choice they want to make, so to me those are kinda equivalent end goals.

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq. (woman) 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

How would you say an aspiring sexual loser accomplish that?

First, I agree with de-pedestalizing. 100%. Men who supplicate (as in actually supplicate, not the warped definition of supplicate I've seen some TRPers use) or hand over their hearts on a silver platter are not particularly attractive (to some women, I don't speak for all).

Second, I ofc agree with self-improvement, but I'd also add to that self-focus. In other words, finding hobbies, passions, etc. that you do for you and that you enjoy and generally make your life more fun/pleasurable. Most women don't want men who focus their entire life on them. Ideally at this point you will have gained some self-confidence and a sense of self-worth and hopefully feel a bit less lonely/depressed/needy for female attention.

Third, go meet women. Be sociable. Ask them on dates. Join a dating website, an intramural club, trivia night, something where you can meet women.

We could get into other advice after steps 1-3 but I think those are the best steps to start with.

So I think that my "alpha" might be some people's "high beta"

Absolutely agree. TRP tends to do this because they see alpha = good and beta = bad, when in reality, women want a good mix of both, at least for a life partner. Most women do not genuinely want a self-interested alpha for a relationship, and there are plenty of women like me who don't even want one for just sex.

And "high betas" can still avoid marriage and get laid on the regular if that is the choice they want to make, so to me those are kinda equivalent end goals.

Sure they can. But I, personally, believe that most men actually want to fall in love, emotionally invest in a good woman, share their life with someone, raise a family, blah blah blah. Those that are willing to admit that to themselves are going to find a much easier go of it if they become both sexually attractive and relationship-worthy to a high value woman. That's high beta or BF, IMO.

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You say I am play an exception but I am using anecdotal evidence...the crux of TRP theory. So, how do we know what anecdote is the actual trend?

Rhetorical questions aside...

But there is a strong correlation among preferences, attitudes and gender

And this is where I say it is not nearly that easy to make the claim you do. Correlation=/= causation.

Preference you speak of often isn't actual preference, but shaped by society to be gendered. You really think women LIKE to clean?! No. Some women (and men) do have a preference for cleaning, but to say that in general women like cleaning over men is ridiculous. I don't know a single woman that likes scrubbing baseboards, but we have been directed to think that is what is expected of us.

In addition, sometimes genders are not even given a chance to see if they prefer the other gender's roles. How does a women brought up in traditional gender roles know that she would rather vacuum than fix the leaky faucet? She doesn't because she was never shown how to do the "man's work". So, I guess in that manner, how is there even a preference if we immediately assign gender roles to the tasks?

[–]WhisperSecurityYes, I'm a big meanie. No, I don't care. 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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No, my mother is in that kind of relationship and she doesn't think that losing all of your financial independence is a good strategy to find happiness.

Also I have an IQ of 140+ -- I was an extremely gifted child, to the point of it being...freaky/noticeable. I need a lot of mental stimulation or I get bored. I went to a school for highly gifted children, still got bored and skipped 3 years, starting uni when I was 15. I was deemed a prodigy. Minds like that aren't generally best suited to being a SAHM and my parents got that.

I just think it's really interesting that you think I should give up my financial power and intellectual power. You'd feel safer that way. Things would be more traditional.

Dude, just get less insecure within yourself. It's okay, some women are traditional and some aren't. Some men are traditional and some aren't. Society is not collapsing. A thing you like theoretically (patriarchal norms) might be. Those things are not society.

[–] Paedda Purple Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Also I have an IQ of 140+ -- I was an extremely gifted child, to the point of it being...freaky/noticeable. I need a lot of mental stimulation or I get bored. I went to a school for highly gifted children, still got bored and skipped 3 years, starting uni when I was 15. I was deemed a prodigy. Minds like that aren't generally best suited to being a SAHM and my parents got that.

No, in my experience, it is more a function of upbringing and character, and the resulting drive and ambition, than of intelligence. It was a concious choice of your parents to push you – either because they place high value in success and achievement, or they saw that your character was suited to it.

See, I too was a very gifted child. My IQ hasn't been measured, it's probably less then yours, but not by that much. I got bored in school (normal "Gymnasium", ~best 25% of children), too, but that didn't bother me, I just did other things... like reading my father's university textbooks from 5th or 6th grade on. In Germany you don't usually skip years unless your being bored affects your grades or your behaviour negatively. I was never pushed by anyone, and I don't have much internal ambition (that's just not my character). I still excelled at school, less at university, and I absolutely could see me as a SAHD, though it wouldn't be my first choice.

It's not your intelligence, but your upbringing and character. You could have been brought up to value family life more, and then you might see the possibility of being a SAHM in a more favourable light.

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Title	Why marry a RPer?
Author	Titaniu
Upvotes	32
Comments	526
Date	August 22, 2016 1:26 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/4z0ih8/why_marry_a_rper/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-marry-a-rper.273448 https://theredarchive.com/post/273448

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