Why tie sexual/romantic access into value for someone’s humanity?

sfr4rthrowaway33 · 2021-10-19T15:18:08+00:00

The reason that you saw a different tenor of responses is that bisexual women don't face nearly as much exclusion from the sexual/romantic market as bisexual men. If anything, the issue they face is overt fetishization, which sucks but is very different.

The broader issue is that people are nearly always only selectively "sexual libertarians." Their own preferences are sacrosanct and cannot be criticized lest you violate their bodily autonomy, but other people's preferences that they don't happen to share are to be condemned and subject to social pressure, for dehumanizing those excluded by those preferences.

343_peaches_and_tea · 2021-10-19T15:26:17+00:00

To be fair a big reason why bisexual men and women reacted differently to that thread is because in general bisexual women don't have as hard a time dating the opposite sex as bisexual men do.

Bisexual women tend to have other issues. Like dating the same sex or being fetishized.

I don't think is about being valued as a human being. It's frustration at the very real experience of being rejected for, honestly, petty reasons.

Wanting a relationship is not a uniquely male experience. When women are excluded from the dating pool in a major way they most certainly get upset. This isn't a uniquely male response. Women who are physically ugly feel devalued and underappreciated if they can't find a romantic partner who wants them. Women who can't find a romantic partner because men view them as a slut due to their sexual history still vent and rage their feelings.

I think people are getting stuck up on the accusations of homophobia and assuming that means a hatred of bisexual men. I don't think it's hate. It's disgust based on prejudice. That's still a pretty horrible feeling TBH.

Superfluous_Toast · 2021-10-20T15:19:09+00:00

Because they don't see women as autonomous beings living their own lives, but arbiters of who is "Worthy." I guarantee you there's going to be at least one comment in here about who women "reward" with sex and what that says about her.

We are not people, but the prize for winning life.

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abaxeron · 2021-10-20T02:15:33+00:00

However this made me want to ask why men tie who women will date or sleep with into who women can/do value as human beings.

We don't. The reason you observed this effect is central limit theorem and probabilities. Q4W thread was much more popular and had almost 4 times more comments (almost a thousand) than Q4M (less than 300). Thus, you got wider variety of opinions. Rapid searching through relatively-top-level comments has shown ONE usage of "human being" in the context you're describing, but SEVERAL female comments in caps how they wouldn't date bi men but it totes does not make them homophobic.

Second, you can "hate" and be "phobic" of someone but still see them as human beings; there's no contradiction. Let's try to soften up your position to make it non-contradictory:

"Men believe that a woman's dating and sexual preferences are connected to general attitudes more than a man's".

If this is acceptably close to what you meant, and it's definitely something I can agree with, the reason (in my opinion) is simple. Sex and reproduction are areas of life that women hold monopoly over. If I like a woman personally but not sexually, there's a variety of stuff I can still do for her that her female friends most probably can't. Men are generally taller, stronger, have more experience with machinery, mechanisms, electricity, masonry, carpentry, and more disposable income. NotAll, of course, but from my experience, meeting a woman who has ONE of these traits, skills, or resources is a rare exception. Men can express their non-sexual appreciation of a woman by providing goods and services for free. This summer I expressed my personal appreciation of my elderly female relative by fixing a roof on her greenhouse.

How do women express their non-sexual appreciation of a man? Letting him take her out for a dinner, accepting his gifts, complaining to him about her boyfriend at 3 AM does not count. Ask a random man how many times his female friends have helped him with money, bought him an actually useful expensive gift, or brought flowers to his birthday party. At best, some man will mention being given homemade cooking.

It can be said that judging women's attitudes towards certain subgroups of men by one indicator of sex and reproduction is fallacious, and it is. But this is the strongest indicator we have.

hi_and_fuck_you · 2021-10-19T15:20:21+00:00

Men don't care who you value as human beings. They care who you sleep with.

Hoopy223 · 2021-10-19T15:31:05+00:00

I think a lot of people just cannot wrap their heads around the fact that different people have different values.

Also Men and Women value different things when it comes to dating. Some of the things that Men put a huge price tag on are things Women don’t value the same way.

Also I cannot believe some of the responses. “Men only want wet holes” blah blah blah.

Uglinessisreal · 2021-10-19T15:31:36+00:00

It's not that who you choose to/choose not to sleep with is inherently a judgement of their worth, it's that it can be.

A lot of the reasons people were giving for not wanting to date bi people were steeped in homophobia.

Anyone can date anyone for any reason ultimately, but if someone's logic is "I don't want to date x because :prejudicial stereotype:" it does reflect badly on them.

PlayfulLawyer · 2021-10-19T15:27:40+00:00

I mean what you offer to humanity and what you offer from a sexual, dating and relationship standpoint are very different, so somebody who's promiscuous and somebody who's a virgin can both be valuable to society in some way shape or form that's got nothing to do with it

over348 · 2021-10-19T15:32:34+00:00

Why tie other features into the value of someone's humanity? It's what they do. Its well known that as the amount of sexual partners increase the rate of infidelity increases.

BecretAlbatross · 2021-10-19T16:15:45+00:00

The biological directive to reproduce is literally the only meaning that life gives us other than to survive as long as possible. Its literally the meaning of life, and our intelligence will never be enough to discount that. Individuals can make up whatever meaning of life they want, but the only one that's actually concrete is to mate and pass on your genes.

BrodieDharma · 2021-10-19T23:07:18+00:00

This is more about reciprocal analogies than double standards.

Men and women tend to be attracted to those who attract and have sex with women.

Men and women tend to have an innate visceral disgust for a man or woman with extensive sexual experience with men.

V=V, but P CAN =P

Vagina is typically viewed as having inherent value.

Penis is usually seen as either lacking inherent value unless it excels in power.

Both men and women can tend to feel threatened by the idea that their partner either has low standards and allows low value men to sleep with them, have had transactional sex relationships, or were possibly being stretched out, writhing in pleasure that they may not have the ability or natural equipment to replicate to supersede.

https://youtu.be/dsZDaZh3iJY

Laytheblameonluck · 2021-10-20T02:04:50+00:00

However this made me want to ask why men tie who women will date or sleep with into who women can/do value as human beings

Because it's modern women who now have Madonna-Whore complexes, and men want to avoid it.

chilikettlechips · 2021-10-19T15:18:13+00:00

Definitely a red pill thing I don't ever think about. N-count and virginity thing lol. I actually want a slut, I am a slut, I want to fuck, I like fucking, I wanna be with someone that fucks.

Aldabruzzo · 2021-10-19T15:00:28+00:00

why men tie who women will date or sleep with into who women can/do value as human beings.

Because who women fuck says a lot about them - their character, their integrity, what they value, what they like/dislike, how they see themselves, their relationship to their own sexuality, and their inherent human value.

A woman's prime value is as a mate to a man. Women were made for men - to help and assist men in their life purposes. A woman's prime value is in her sexuality, her sexual appeal, and her limiting her access to that sexuality to as few men as possible. A woman's prime value is in her reproductive capacity and to make that available to as few men as possible.

As well as if they hold themselves or other men to the same standard and why/why not.

We men don't hold ourselves to those standards because men are different. We are judged on what we do, not who we are. We are judged on how productive and useful we are to ourselves, to our tribes, and to the larger society. Women are born valuable. Men must make themselves valuable.

We men don't hold other men to standards tied to whom they fuck. We men hold other men to standards based on what they do, what they produce, and whether they provide value to society.

I know you all are going to downvote this. Because you all lack the courage to face the truth. You all don't like this, but you know it's true - I'm just one of the very few around here who will say it.

zyramain69 · 2021-10-19T15:05:49+00:00

Its has nothing to do with their value as a human it has to do with the fact that we hold the sex with a easier access to many partners to a different standard. I don't care about bi girls or whatever but I don't blame guys that don't want to date womens whose already large dating pool is even bigger. Mens #1 strategy is trying to prevent infidelity as much as possible, I don't know why its a big deal when we have to sit through even more crazy standards.

funlightmandarin · 2021-10-19T16:54:18+00:00

In the thread about whether or not women would date bisexual men I noticed a lot of men saying women’s refusal to date bisexual men is born out of hatred or homophobia. I didn’t notice the same accusations in the thread about bisexual women, despite men’s reasons being very similar to women’s.

SPEAKING IN GENERALITIES:

If you're a woman dating a bi man: your competition is both other women and men. And bi men will have male libidos and will fuck anyone for fuckness sake, which means alot. Other men are an actual threat to your relationship.
If you're a man dating a bi woman: your competition is both other men and women. Bi women have female libidos, other female competition isn't as big of a threat to your relationship.

That's why bi men will not be as attractive partners to women as bi women are to men. Therefore, men's argument for women refusing to date bi men as "homophobia".

Mrs_Drgree · 2021-10-19T14:55:04+00:00

[permanently deleted]

NinjaOfTheSouth · 2021-10-19T14:59:02+00:00

Because as men, we see it as nobody wants or desires you. Making men feel like their not worth shit.

It’s why when a guy fucks a lot chicks it’s always praised or envied.

That’s how men feel and think most of the time.

VastlyVainVanity · 2021-10-19T15:52:59+00:00

Who people sleep with tells me a lot about who they are. I don't think the average person would disagree with this sentiment, since the average person doesn't really sleep with many people.

Regarding the supposed double standard you believe exists, it's probably because:

Women typically don't see men sleeping around as a dealbreaker, so they don't tend to think that a man's choices when it comes to sexual partners tells them a lot about who the men are other than that they are desired.
Men typically care about a woman's sexual past to some degree, and so it is more likely that they will impute some value judgement onto those women's choices for sexual partners.

It is also far more common to see men being disgusted at promiscuous women than the opposite. Chastity (not virginity, mind you) is still a characteristic that men value more than women. And it will probably remain so for ages to come.

velvetunderground111 · 2021-10-20T09:06:54+00:00

So this gets into the area where perceived SMV and human value collide. A lot of people talk shit about people they would not simply DATE. I, in all honesty, would probably never date a single mother of multiple kids, or a much, much older woman (I am 42, so let's say she is 62).

However, does that mean that I DESPISE these people? No. It simply means I don't want to date them. It;s not like I can't empathize with them. Single moms have a tough time in life, I get that. I just don't want the drama. I grew up in the 2000's emo era, so I need at least someone my age (or a younger girl into older shit) to be able to have that in common. I don't DISLIKE either of these groups, or think they are "less than".

We get confused about this on a lot of the pill forums. Especially with single moms, who get pure HATRED. No, I don't want to date one, either. I don't want the responsibility. Simple as that. No need to shit on them.

Taipanshimshon · 2021-10-19T15:24:25+00:00

What exactly should come into count as value for humanity?

Is there a specific list somewhere or is it purely injective?

Also what does someone's desire for specific features in a romantic partner have to do with their value as a human being?

Seems like a stretch of logic to me.

Devourer_of_felines · 2021-10-19T15:33:06+00:00

why men tie who women will date or sleep with into who women can/do value as human beings.

Who you pick for a sexual/romantic partner reflects what you value in a partner.

if they hold themselves or other men to the same standard

Well yea; don’t expect fidelity out of a guy who cheats on the regular

redback-spider · 2021-10-19T16:44:00+00:00

I think you make a false equality about man and women rejecting bi-sexuals, because it sounds like similar amounts of man reject that and women, which I would oppose heavily, I don't judge it, but I would argue that man are way toleranter or even love bi-sexuality in women than women are happy about their male partner beeing bi.

I think you mix 2 different questions, you try to equate women having gay friends and man having bi-sexual girl friends.

The one is the judgment romantically the other just generally.

For man sex is very important partially because of higher drive especially in young males, but also it's more rare, so of course what you have less easy access you even value more. Women starve man of sex intentionally or not, so if you are not in the lucky minority that get as much as you want and probably more than that, you have to fight with feeling some weight of women for hurting man by not beeing more casual. Also even the guys that get it often have to work for it paying for dates ask out etc, when in theory it should be a equal exchance.

Also man get judged a lot in mainstream for presumed homophobia, also from feminists yet then women are the ones that discriminate romantically against bi-sexuals.

And it's not a sexual attraction tihng, if you are straight you like men it does not mean that you like hetero sexual people... so it's more like rejecting somebody because he is not rich or has no high social status, or maybe race... now again I don't judge that, but I dislike the hypocracy get nonstop accused of homophobia and women pretent to be angels.

Also if you friendzone a guy straight or bi-sexual, that is a egoistic and even evil manipulative thing, you get what you want, attention, protection, stability, a shoulder to lean on, and the what 99% of this man want sex they don't get, but you never say it clearly most of the time, you will not say "I wil never sleep with you even if hell freezes over" yet that is what you think (more or less).

I don't say women should feel guilty about it, but at least be aware and stop attacking man so often...

xFallacyx69 · 2021-10-19T17:29:35+00:00

Men have to take note of actions, just like women. The difference is, men won’t get laid if they don’t vet based on actions. If she doesn’t sleep with you, she doesn’t want to date you. That’s the bottom line.

Deltajonn · 2021-10-19T20:09:08+00:00

A female who engages sexually with both males and females doesn’t diminish her femininity, which is directly associated with her desirability (traditionally). This is partly a result of females not having organic penises, therefore no “traditional” sex via penile penetration.

Whereas a male who engages in sexual behavior with both genders is forfeiting masculinity, which is (traditionally) linked to his desirability as a male, to a female partner.

ragman75 · 2021-10-19T21:44:17+00:00

I don't think most men tie women's value as humans to who they fuck, they just tie their value as a romantic partner to who they have fucked. The feeling that women have that they aren't valued as humans, is just the void left when a man doesnt want to fuck you but because you lack significant amounts of personal growth, the man also doesnt respect you either.

Lateralanouncer · 2021-10-19T22:27:57+00:00

Like it or not we are defined by our sexuality.

Woman. A woman that exchange’s something for sex is a hoe. Crack hoe. Dinner hoe or even a travel hoe. A woman who is indiscriminate to who fucks her is promiscuous or what we traditionally called a slut. Good body and dick fine. Married men. Drug dealers she may wake up some morning not even knowing who fucked her and of cause a woman that get married is a wife

LGBT community’s are another example of this. Pronouns etc etc.

For men. A man that provides for another mans child is a cuck. A man that get sex commitment free is an alpha or what woman call fuck boy. A man that pays is a trick. Etc etc.

MisterNavit · 2021-10-20T13:35:06+00:00

I dated a bisexual girl once. Let me tell you, that was not as glamorous as everyone thinks. Had the displeasure to meet her land whale of a mistress ones. And like a month after that she dumped me for Mrs. Fat girl with attitude issues, out of the blue. I went on to find a boyfriend with whom I've been for nearly 9 years and she broke up with Mrs. Richter scale and went on to ride some cocks until she found her current boyfriend whom she's about to marry. She was left with a few... bad habits and vices from that period. Such as being a drunk. As soon as she's done teaching her classes she's going straight for the booze.

Title	Why tie sexual/romantic access into value for someone’s humanity?
Author	Lonely_23_1997
Upvotes	23
Comments	388
Date	October 19, 2021 2:46 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/qbd0hx/why_tie_sexualromantic_access_into_value_for/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-tie-sexualromantic-access-into-value-for.1078641 https://theredarchive.com/post/1078641

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