Prenups can be overturned. Don't get married.

grewapair · 2015-08-15T22:55:39+00:00

Live in a small apartment in a big city and you never need a woman in your life.

I spend about 5-10 minutes a day cleaning. It's small so it's all I need. I'd spend way more than 10 minutes fighting/listening to the girl yapping/going to events I don't want if I had a wife.

Cooking is easy and if you aren't into it, 100 places will deliver.

It might be nice to be married, but it isn't worth the cost and risks.

MattyAnon · 2015-08-15T17:08:16+00:00

every lawyer will be looking for one aspect of the contract that makes the agreement outrageously unfair

And yet ironically, marriage without a prenup is considered to be totally fair and reasonable on men.

leodoestheopposite · 2015-08-15T18:19:48+00:00

I got divorced twice, both times I had a pre-nup. The first time over 2 decades ago there were no issues. The second time there were veiled treats from her lawyer to have the pre-nup declared null and void, or at least some of the clauses.

It was blackmail pure and simple, I talked this over with my lawyer and I gave in on a few items that I didn't have to in order to save time and reduce risk. One of the items in the divorce settlement that my lawyer insisted was that the divorce settlement was final and without recourse, meaning that she could not come back and modify any of the terms, and my very smart lawyer had the judge sign off on the clause too. I am not a lawyer so I might not have all the terminology correct, so take my post in principle.

For the curious in you, we had:

no kids, so no child support
no debt,
some assets that were hers from inheritance, protected by the prenup
some assets that were mine from prior to the marriage, protected by the prenup
some assets acquired during the marriage, regulated by the prenup
no alimony

So practically we both walked away with our personal assets, and we split the common assets in half. There was a sizable down payment on a property that came from my own personal assets that was supposed to be included in my personal assets but I had to give in and count the entire property as common property to be divided 50/50.

But I do read this trend that prenups are overtuned more and more and I can't help think WTF? That is the reason why more and more guys, even if they don't know about TRP refuse to get married. There have been articles referencing statistics posted in this sub before.

And while I follow rule #1: You don't talk about TRP; when at times with family and friends the discussion is about single life and how it's hard to find someone I always say that it's easy, very easy to find someone, the hard part is to find someone of quality. Moreover there are more women looking for guys, than there are guys looking for women, because most women out there of a certain age are looking to get married, while the age appropriate guys do not want to get married. When confronted with disbelief I ask them to think about their single friends who complain, and to think about how many of those are women and how many of those are men, and after a few seconds of going through their own thoughts, most people agree with me, that they know a lot of (post wall) women looking for a guy (BP/BB to marry them) then guys who are looking for a wife.

The present state of thing sucks for everyone, but it is driven by feminism gone wrong. TRP is nothing more than a reactive defense counterstrategy.

skoobled · 2015-08-15T20:14:18+00:00

Marriage already had a prenuptial agreement - it's called the vows. But nowadays that shit is just part of the expensive party pagent, huh

Boise13 · Sat Aug 15 20:59:43 2015 UTC

I just found out a coworker is being cheated on by his wife with his best friend. Two years ago, in a dead serious manner, I told him not to get married. NEVER GET MARRIED.

cheesecarrot · 2015-08-15T22:39:51+00:00

Does anyone here have any experience with having kids without getting married on purpose (I.e. not because the condom broke etc)

monsieurhire2 · 2015-08-15T19:52:12+00:00

I NEVER advise getting a prenup. I'm in the don't get married camp.

Remember, the system WANTS fresh meat to feed itself, and it will look for any excuse. It's not about justice or fairness, it's about where the most money is to be had.

Want a small example?

Think about if you're accused of a minor traffic offense. Most of us have been. Sometimes we were guilty, and we paid our debts to society, but other times it was trumped up bullshit.

Now, the system could let you off for being innocent . . . but it gets to collect $100 to $1000 + for finding you guilty! It's practically a no-brainer for a venal judge, although apparently juries are fed up with rigged traffic related bullshit to bring in revenue for the state. Still though, some taxpayer is footing the bill every time you enter the meat grinder, even if you come out with only your time and energy drained instead of your pocketbook.

Pretty much everything to do with the legal system is to be avoided if you can help it. The only good you can say about it is that it's a better alternative to warfare as a means of solving disputes. And that's why we have it.

PlusGoody · 2015-08-15T19:52:02+00:00

This is simply wrong.

A pre-nup which fits the prescribed models, and is done in the prescribed manner, by the court precedents in your state is just as solid as any other contract, and is HIGHLY likely to be enforced under its terms.

Now, if you pull a pre-nup form from the Internet and ask your fiance to sign it a few days before your wedding, it's worthless. But anything done shitty is worthless.

For the benefit of the young guys on here, here's what you have to do with a pre-nup.

(1) A year or so before you get married, hire a lawyer who has been drafting, and defending, pre-nups in your state and county for many years.

(2) A month or so later, tell your fiancee you want a prenup. If she agrees, write her a check to hire a lawyer at least as experienced and expensive as yours, and the CPA that this lawyer requests. No wedding invitations are sent or to be sent until the pre-nup is signed and sealed. You agree to reimburse her or her family IN FULL for any non-refundable wedding expenses they incur if the pre-nup cannot be agreed to.

(3) For the next couple of months, that CPA will fully investigate your finances and that of your family (relevant to your inheritance prospects). Give him everything he asks for, without exception or limitation.

(4) At least 9 months before the wedding, your lawyer sends the first draft of the pre-nup. It will not mention or limit child custody or child support. It will not penalize at all, or only slightly penalize, "fault" -- i.e., it works whether she cheats on you, or vice versa. It will give your fiancee a small portion (how small dictated by local precedent) of the wedding-day value of your assets, the appreciation on that value, and the value of your career on the wedding day. It will give her a much larger share of the growth in the value of career and of assets you acquire from ongoing work income.

(5) For the next couple of months, you negotiate. At least six months before the wedding, you finalize the terms and sign. Then and only then can invitations go out.

Oprahforpresident · 2015-08-15T21:26:01+00:00

I understand splitting assets in a marriage where a husband and wife worked together for many years to accumulate their wealth, but in situations where one spouse has accumulated all the wealth before meeting the other spouse it's an absolute dumb business decision to get married by the wealthier spouse. When Courts void part or the whole prenup they work under the presumption the non challenging spouse has been unjustly enriched. Ironically enough the challenging spouse ends up arguably unjustly enriched. After a certain point it just doesn't make sense to get married, share your life with someone sure, but to enter a legally binding contract is for the birds.

fewforwarding · 2015-08-15T23:17:54+00:00

Don't forget this post from a week ago.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/04/n-y-prenup-battle-winner-destroyed-family-with-affair-cousin-says/

She originally refused to sign it, but a few days before her wedding, she agreed to sign after her husband promised her he would do away with the prenup once the two began to have children. He did not destroy the prenup, even after they had children, according to his estranged wife.

Women can say they were "pressured" into signing the agreement and the judge will just throw the prenup out anyway. She was given the agreement 6 weeks before the marriage.

Maybe if you do everything perfectly a prenup will work, but why put yourself at risk for no gain in the first place?

championchilli · 2015-08-16T00:29:57+00:00

Happily unmarried at nearly 40 in my own place and banging chicks ten years my junior. Glad I got out of a long termer five or so years ago, haven't looked back.

amberlamb · 2015-08-16T00:43:35+00:00

“When was it signed? Where was it signed? And under what conditions was it signed?”

My lawyer videotaped everything.

Hatemebrooo · 2015-08-15T23:44:43+00:00

Yawn, just because you're not a lawyer and don't understand it doesn't mean they won't be upheld, absent malpractice on the attorney's part or joe blow filling it out by himself, prenupts are practically always upheld if done correctly

CptFizz · 2015-08-15T22:22:50+00:00

Can you sue your lawyer for a shitty prenup?

OrpheusV · 2015-08-16T01:11:46+00:00

Well, what of those of us who done goofed on this and got married before finding this place? A little late to the party. And I didn't do a prenup either. Oops.

Granted, I've started applying some TRP concepts to the relationship, but I can't help but think I've made a mistake in light of what I've read and seen.

Overkillengine · 2015-08-16T07:19:42+00:00

One of the funniest Demotivational poster memes I have ever seen was:

"Before you try to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you."

It was funny because it was true. The issue with modern marriage isn't what happens when everything works out; it is what happens to a man when everything does not.

Whisper · 2015-08-16T21:18:39+00:00

This cannot be repeated enough.

A prenup can be tossed out for being "unfair". And your society's definition of "unfair" is "woman suffers negative consequences from her actions".

If your prenup actually protects you, it will be tossed out because it actually protects you.

Your only protection is not to enter into the deal in the first place.

PremiumGoose · 2015-08-15T19:40:54+00:00

I wonder what the rate of prenup overturns are compared to not. Seems like we only hear about the times they are overturned but not from when they withstood.

shanghaiex_pat · 2015-08-16T02:55:53+00:00

Armchair expert. This sub is now just endless circle jerking.

trplurker · 2015-08-16T15:57:52+00:00

More bullshit from someone who read a few articles and wants to gain karma points. Most of your post is bullshit plain and simple. The US judicial system, both criminal and civil, is based around previous rulings made by judges and this case law determines everything. Cast law for prenups is long and well known, the fact that most idiots don't research just proves how low that bar is. Prenups are a legal contract and thus are subject to the same rulings as every other legal contract in the USA. If contracts could be broken so easily, then the entire nation would of burned up a long time ago.

Here is the formula that provides an air-tight prenup every time all the time.

1 Both parties have to have separate legal advisers paid for separately. Both legal advisers need to be present for all negotiations, yes it's fucking negotiation deal with it.

2, Do not set the date or pay for the wedding until after the contract is negotiated and signed.

3, Do not include any language dealing with children or child support. Child support is a completely separate area of law and you can not create valid contract with them being involved. Don't mention them, pretend they don't exist for the purposes of this contract.

4, Do not deny her everything nor leave her destitute. Part of contract law deals with unconscionable contracts. An unconscionable contract is one that is so ridiculously one sided that no reasonably informed person would sign it. There is case law that stipulates such contracts as being invalid and they are thrown out of court regardless if they are dealing with furniture or divorce. If your proposed contract is unconscionable, her lawyer is going to suggest she enthusiastically sign it because it's an easy one to break. You must leave her something and it can't be some stupidly low amount. So the whole "that bitch gets nothing" approach is 100% guaranteed to fail.

5, Don't fucking lie about your shit. By 100% honest with all financial assets in the contract, state everything you have. Also state that finances will be kept separate and that retirement is separate for each of you and that neither of you expects to benefit of the others retirement. This is very important if you wish to protect future pensions or 401K's.

6, Sign a post-nup one year after the wedding and then sign another one after any major change in financial status or once every few years. The new contract needs to include any new assets and should be updated to include the values of assets that have appreciated. Her proposed cut should also be updated to reflect changes in financial situations.

The whole purpose of all this is to create a nice long chain of her accepting the contract as conscionable and both of you being honest about any financial dealings. It also puts the legal work in place that allows you to keep your investments and retirements completely and prevents them from becoming "marital property" during a split. Expect to split the house 50/50, expect to split any savings or joint accounts, but most of your major assets should be in those retirement accounts that you each have separated. Technically you don't have access to any increase in her retirement account, so this could actually hurt you if her financial position dramatically increased over yours, but that's unlikely.

And most importantly, talk to multiple lawyers with a history of having their agreements upheld. Something like 99.99% of pre-nups are upheld with most never even going to court. They are an amazing way to protect your assets, but only if someone's smart enough to not be an idiot. The biggest benefit of them is they provide for an easy path of separation without going through an expensive divorce proceeding. Saved month from lawyers, court fee's and so forth is more money in your pocket, and if done right you will exit from the marriage unscathed with most of your high value financial investments intact.

TheJessee · 2015-08-16T08:54:43+00:00

Half or marriages end in divorce and those still married a lot of them are miserable going without a real relationship, also the tax break is actually not nearly as good as people think

abdada · 2015-08-15T16:05:30+00:00

It's comical to me to see these don't get married posts.

Putting money on the pedestal like this shows your cards -- you don't have a strong net worth nor a strong earning ability, so you fear losing money.

I've been divorce raped. Seven figures. Guess what?

I made it all back and more. I age like wine, my ex aged like milk left in the sun in the Sahara.

And a decade later, she's blown the cash and I'm still able to date coeds.

I'd marry again. Just wouldn't marry a loser who doesn't value me over my bank balance.

Almost all my inner circle are happily married guys. I don't see divorces happen when the man captains the ship and selects a good first mate.

I see plenty of divorces when a guy marries a so-called trophy wife.

f3yleaf · 2015-08-16T01:08:32+00:00

....... dont get married..... the end.

Seriously, have ltr's, fall in love, have children, DONT GET MARRIED.

Tarnsman4Life · 2015-08-16T02:33:02+00:00

DO NOT GET MARRIED IN THE USA. PERIOD. Don't do it. Prenumps where the woman has her own lawyer review them beforehand are getting overturned. The family court system is filled with angry feminist judges who do not give a flying fuck about you, your contract or what your STBX did. She just wants to fuck over the man.

If you really want to LTR then LTR but do it smart, don't let the move in. Maintain separate residences, finances, etc.

We all hear about the stories where yes 40 years later you have an Alpha happily married but they are rare. My grandmother lived until she was 99 and was a chain smoker until the day she died. She was also one of the healthiest people I knew until the last 3 years of her life.

That doesn't mean we should all go out and chain smoke.

GuitarHero07 · 2015-08-16T04:42:36+00:00

Guide to pre-nups:

1. If you get married make sure you find a woman who is fit for marriage. This excludes the vast major of Western women. She should have fewer than 5 sex partners (ideally 0), 27 at the oldest, from an intact family, be feminine, be serious about motherhood and know how to cook and clean. Remember, you can't turn a ho into a housewife.

2. Sign the pre-nup long before plans for the wedding are made. Ideally it should be signed before the engagement is announced. That way there is no arguing that she was "coerced" or "pressured." You should leave a minimum of 6 months before the wedding.

3. She should have her own lawyer (paid by her) advising her. That way, there's no claiming that she was duped. She knew full well what she was getting into.

4. She has to get something. Unfortunately, you can't leave her destitute. She must get a "reasonable" (as determined by a judge) amount of assets. The key is to make it so that she gets something but you are not destroyed financially. While we hear many divorce horror stories, many wealthy men do walk away relatively unscathed.

nantucketghost · 2015-08-16T01:36:23+00:00

deleted ^{^{^What}} ^{^{^is}} ^{^{^this?}}

mdadm · 2015-08-15T23:45:41+00:00

I don't understand why this surprises people so much. For as long as contracts have existed, one party has been getting screwed, and it isn't necessarily the party that the contract is designed. The more powerful party always wins, regardless of what's in the contract.

Take for example that you run a software development business. You don't have any E&O insurance because you make all your clients sign a hold harmless contract.

Then you write a bug into your software (accidentally of course) that destroys two hundred thousand dollars worth of client's raw material. You better bet your ass that your client is coming after you, regardless of your contract status because you were negligent.

You cite your contract but the judge rules in your customer's favour; The client has an in-house legal team - you can't hope to match their spend on the defense. You're fucked.

Wake up people, danger is everywhere. Sometimes even with an "informed decision", all you're doing is rolling the god damn dice.

[deleted] · 2015-08-16T19:15:16+00:00

If the legal systems were better marrige and kids wouldnt be that bad. IMO

Transmigratory · 2015-08-16T23:30:55+00:00

I've been told by a lawyer that to ensure a prenup is maintained, you need to make sure her needs are met. So basically you'll have to do some "insurance spending" on things you can give her post divorce.

Really the easiest thing is don't aim to marry the ones from the lowest socioeconomic groups. Those ones tend to go hell and back to try and chuck a prenup out.

If marriage is your thing, try get someone with the same economic standing as you do. Encourage them to work so they can't play the "I lost out a chance to make a career" card.

If you marry someone richer than you, then you can put the shoe on the other foot. In the UK, a gold digger GUY got a sweet deal from a millionaire WOMAN in divorce court. Naturally the latter talked about divorce law being a gold digger's charter... even tried the "he only cruises around for rich girls" jabs.

CowardlyPetrov · 2015-08-16T02:57:00+00:00

Is there a list of these overturned prenups anywhere? I'd really like to prove this to my friend who thinks prenups are unbeatable.

bama79rolltide · 2015-08-16T00:42:05+00:00

I wonder if you added the clause:

"I am not signing this prenuptial agreement under duress, and I fully abide by the terms of the agreement"

I'd like to see that challenged in court.

jkeegan123 · 2015-08-16T01:58:42+00:00

I would be fucking pissed beyond reason if I got married and my spouse took advantage of my financial status through divorce. If she did it while committing adultery and got to leave with my money, I don't know how I'd handle that....but I will say of marriage, it's great to know that someone else has your back legally, is LEGALLY BOUND to always have your back, and is a lifetime companion for the good and bad times. My wife and I get along very well, even after the fights, and we never go to bed mad.

Title	Prenups can be overturned. Don't get married.
Author	mucle6
Upvotes	369
Comments	304
Date	August 15, 2015 3:55 PM UTC (10 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/TheRedPill
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3h3snb/prenups_can_be_overturned_dont_get_married/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/TheRedPill/prenups-can-be-overturned-dont-get-married.35580 https://theredarchive.com/post/35580

Comments

1 Both parties have to have separate legal advisers paid for separately. Both legal advisers need to be present for all negotiations, yes it's fucking negotiation deal with it.

2, Do not set the date or pay for the wedding until after the contract is negotiated and signed.

3, Do not include any language dealing with children or child support. Child support is a completely separate area of law and you can not create valid contract with them being involved. Don't mention them, pretend they don't exist for the purposes of this contract.