I think "game" has hurt me more than it has ever helped me. It's just a bunch of needy behaviors/tricks to attempt to make women like you. It seems like its constantly reinforcing the idea that you're not good enough.

flirty_guy17 · 2022-04-18T19:45:15+00:00

When you grow older you just wanted a decent looking girl who you trust and genuinely enjoy her company.

No games, no fake personalities, no power plays.

BensonInFL · 2022-04-18T21:51:21+00:00

"Game" isn't one book or ideology, most of the books I read on inner game teach you that you ARE good enough, and try to take you to a the place of instilling that you have a lot of value... so I'm not sure where this is coming from..

Second, pickup/game is just self help ... like any other books that will tell you if want to be a better weight lifter or swimmer, or baseball player, you need to improve a specific skillset and then these guides illustrate the specific set of steps that you need to take.... If your takeaway from reading self-help guides is that it reinforces that you're not good enough... I think it might be better to look inward at why you prefer the immediate relief/minor good feeling of identifying as a victim instead of wanting to actually improve yourself. Perhaps you don't love yourself or don't think that you deserve the things that come from being successful.

-B

electrisio · 2022-04-18T19:41:57+00:00

A few things to respond to here:

“Just a bunch of needy behaviours/tricks” - I view it as learning social skills. The beauty of it is that learning these things will make you connect with a women far better. It’s about making the connection strong, not deception. Women want you to have good game.
“Constantly reinforcing the idea that you’re not good enough” - the fact is that women like certain behaviour and forms of communication. You have to be willing to be a learner and accept that you will suck.

In general, it seems that you are very outcome dependant. All I will say is that it is possible to not be outcome dependant. You can select to view success as improving your interactions (and therefore social skills) and by making genuine connections. If your outcome dependant you won’t last long.

Wanting to be able to connect with a women and attract her is needy at its core. But it’s who we are and what we do - humans who survive and reproduce. It’s the in constant variable between us and our ancestors.

The vast majority of people with little experience will struggle when starting. Those who succeed are able to detach from outcome and not take it so personally. I feel like you have either done a lot of approaches and failed without getting someone to evaluate you, or you haven’t done many. If you haven’t done many, try doing 30 a week (yes that is what’s required) for a couple of months and see if you have any progress, both in social skills and results. The chances are you probably will.

If you have genuinely done a lot of approaches and aren’t getting results then there are two things you can do; lower your standards or up your SMV.

It’s not for the faint hearted, but hard things to get are more valuable. You can either hide and regret or try and possibly succeed. Your DNA already knows what you need to do.

MO_drps_knwldg · 2022-04-18T19:45:35+00:00

Be attractive, be natural, flirt, don’t fear rejection, have FUN. Everything else will fall into place.

eecchhee · 2022-04-18T22:31:58+00:00

Papi you’re not doing it right. Separate Game from PUA tricks. Game corrects the illness; PUA tricks mask the symptoms.

Keep searching. You’ll find it.

Maxoncillo · 2022-04-18T23:17:34+00:00

You seem very affected by something. Maybe a mix of a lot of problems and it all exploded? My boy, you are sad now, there's no much to say. Give attention to your sadness, is all that it needs, cry if necessary, sometimes, we need it.

With that aside, even if your game is strong or weak, you must understand that even the pros fail. Everyone fails, countless times, and no one teaches you how to deal with rejection. You are enough, and that's why you always deserve better. "Game" is just a word to summarize the social skills to make someone comfortable with your presence, attitude and with you in general so you can get to the point where you can do something with that, with that comfyness, and that's it, and we are all different, yes, there might be guidelines somewhere but you have to do what makes YOU comfortable and then, just then, start worrying about who you're fucking next. Thing with seduction is... You never know. It could be a 30% chance that never happens, or a 30% chance that always hits

MundanePossibility75 · 2022-04-18T23:38:27+00:00

When you reach the point when you stop giving a fuck about women completely.( Because no matter what you do something will turn her off). U automatically become a turn on for them. That's what happened with me the less you care the more they care. I have been approached several times in mall all i was doing was minding my own business , avoiding eye contact with a girl trying not to give them any validation.Thats when they go crazy.

carpetsunami · 2022-04-18T19:54:34+00:00

What's brilliant is that the book that started it all "The Game" unintentionally ends with this message. The girl Neil falls is love with is immune to all the "tricks" and that's what makes her desirable to him.

His "Game" is, in the end, completely useless in attracting the one he really wanted.

no_not_this · 2022-04-19T00:17:58+00:00

The “game” is becoming a desirable high value person. After you’ve beat it it’s like shooting fish in a barrel .

Gunter5 · 2022-04-19T01:02:12+00:00

The massed up part is that a lot of people in the industry need to make to feel inferior and convince you that you need them

The truth is girls want you, they want to be picked up. You just need to get over the biggest hurdle saying "hi"

PurpleCookie_Og · 2022-04-18T19:23:50+00:00

Sounds like u don’t actually have any game

GalaxyBrainU · 2022-04-18T22:48:34+00:00

"it starts from a place of you are not good enough, you need to be better." So do you feel that any type of self improving behavior is useless because it starts with you not being good enough? If you don't come out the womb perfect in every aspect, is life just pointless?

The thing is, "game" is not built to work in the first place if you can't create a sense of self-worth. You have to find a way to believe that you are enough. If you can't create that as is, you need to improve yourself (workout, learn skills, accomplish goals etc) so that you have something to be proud of. Only then will it feel less like needy behavior and more like social skills that can get you things you want.

burncushlikewood · 2022-04-18T23:10:26+00:00

You should study natural game, it's not a style that comes off as gimmicky/canned. You can be yourself and attract women that way

DetainTheFranzia · 2022-04-19T00:52:20+00:00

Here's why Im on this sub. I had a great relationship with my ex of 5 years. We met and became genuinely best friends. But our sex life sucked. Part of it was because she didnt have much libido. But honestly, I took a lot of it for granted. I never tried to seduce her. Not on a psychological sense, at least. Sure, I wined and dined her, but I didn't tease her. I just kind of assumed sex should happen. So now I'm trying to remember how to flirt and seduce. The truth is, seduction, flirting, teasing - those are all things that are necessary for most people in a healthy sexual relationship, even a long term relationship.

Some of the best advice here is not that you should know how to seduce women, flirt with them, escalate, have good sex, etc. But that you need to improve yourself for your own sake. Go out at night to enjoy your own night. The purpose is to enjoy yourself, meet interesting people, and yeah, it would be great to meet a woman, hook up, even a few times. It's okay and healthy to live like that.

RoadyCoder · 2022-04-19T09:06:21+00:00

Do you think that ‘game’ is limited to just picking up chicks?

Wrong.

I got into ‘game’ not because I felt unworthy or inadequate. I got into ‘game’ because I wanted to be an upgraded version of ME.

I apply ‘game’ to multiple areas of my life. I’ve used it to form platonic friendships, succeed in job interviews, close sales, get discounts… I could go on.

Your personality is a lot like a computer; You can install updates to improve the system and make it operate the way you want it to, but it’s still the same computer. Do you get me?

willgo-waggins · 2022-04-18T20:51:02+00:00

Game is doing the things in the way that women like. You can't be a regular boring guy with women and expect them to like you for it. Women like men who are a little extra, because women are a little extra too.

Ambitious-Ice2357 · 2022-04-18T22:52:43+00:00

YouTube is littered with these con artists teaching game and how to get women. It’s soooo fake. Most of it is entirely scripted. If you can’t be yourself, who are you supposed to be? If a woman doesn’t like you unless you act like someone else, you’re in for a miserable ride.

nevertextgoodnight · 2022-04-18T19:39:10+00:00

I vaguely understand what you mean, I've gotten down on myself and then tried to justify it

Whether you think you're good enough or not, you're right

It's needy that you are acting needy

It's not needy to improve social skills in specific regards to women

Learning a new language is not needy

But yes, "the true self always shines through" so if you're struggling inside with neediness and insecurity you need to address yourself first before you continue talking to women

willgo-waggins · 2022-04-18T21:02:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

LandscapeClear1630 · 2022-04-18T21:44:46+00:00

lol it's funny that you say that cuz one of the tenets of game is actually to identify and lose "needy behaviors" on yourself while reinforcing the belief that "you're enough".

atomant88 · 2022-04-18T21:49:49+00:00

Wrong. Follow the fundamentals . They work. Most advice beyond thatbus very dubious tho yes. There are no shortcuts. There is no magic formula. But there is a direction and path to take to success if you can put in some work

DiamondRider21 · 2022-04-18T23:29:35+00:00

The point of "game" is to grow confidence. Be yourself but be confident. Women love confidence and a man who is 100% sure of himself.

Granny_Killa · 2022-04-19T03:33:38+00:00

There's game and then there's PUA. Game is actually just social skills that some of us didn't learn properly when we were younger for whatever reasons. So you can't say that having normal human social skills is needy or tricks.

CocoBabeNYC · 2022-04-18T19:43:30+00:00

Completely agree. Before I discovered "the community", I somehow managed to lose my virginity at 16, had a girlfriend, had other girls be interested in me, etc. I have to admit, I was too pussy to make moves, but if I had made moves (only good thing game taught me), I would have gotten laid much more than after I discovered seduction.

You are exactly right that the biggest problem with game and wjth the self improvement aspect is that it reinforces the message "you are not good enough, you need to improve yourself until you appear infallible and perfect and only then women will start liking you". It's a losing proposition and if you think about it, it's the flip side of being a nice guy.

Nice guys think, "if I'm nice enough, behave well, respect her and do favors for her, one day she will recognize what a good guy I am and she will like me, hopefully overlooking the worthless loser that lives inside of me". Then a guy discovers "game" and is told, "women don't like nice guys, you must be an asshole, you must say this and that in the exact precise sequence in order for a girl to want to sleep with you", so the guy just puts on another fake persona to try and hide just how poorly he feels about himself. Both strategies work as well as you would expect.

eszibit · 2022-04-18T20:21:57+00:00

" I think dieting has hurt me more than it has helped. It's just a bunch of skinny ass bitches that are jealous that i have curves, i swear. It starts from a place that "you're not good enough" or " you are too big" or "guys just like thin healthy girls " . But i know i'm not needy and i'm a boss bitch, why should i improve just so they like me? "

recyclablebanthas · 2022-04-19T05:29:17+00:00

1

I think "game" has hurt me more than it has ever helped me. It's just a bunch of needy behaviors/tricks to attempt to make women like you. It seems like its constantly reinforcing the idea that you're not good enough.

To add to it someone else said, there's definitely more than one philosophy behind game so there's different kinds of "game."

2

As the title says, a lot of "game" is teaching you that you're not good enough and you can use these tricks to suddenly be attractive.

You can definitely see some of this messaging among people who are trying to sell services. Those are people trying to take advantage of lonely people to make a buck.

It benefits those people to present messaging that a prospective customer isn't good enough and needs their products or services.

A lot of game though isn't in this category and is focused on addressing the fact that guys often reach manhood without picking up basic social skills that they need to successfully navigate social interactions to get sex or land a relationship.

3

But, it starts from the place of, "You're not good enough. You need to do these things better." Which kind of makes you needy since you need to do certain things to be likeable. And as we all know, neediness is the killer of attraction.

There are some schools of thought in game that lead to people trying to maximize their chances by changing who they are or presenting something different than who they are in order to appeal to more people.

This can certainly work in that it can get someone sex, but it sacrifices long-term emotional health for the quick fix of some validation and sex. This kind of thing can lead to a guy feeling that the whole thing is empty and that everyone is shallow or that seduction involves complicated games.

When in truth, it's more complicated because of the level of work involved in pretending to be someone else.

4

But game does not require people to pretend to be someone else or present the image of someone else. Developing one's self-confidence is about finding the value in who you are.

Where we draw the line is that an awkwardness that comes from an inability to successfully navigate social interactions, is not an inherent character trait. It's a knowledge gap that can be closed. It's a skill set that can be developed without changing who one is.

This shit isn't easy. Doing this work involves becoming aware of just how cringe one might have been over the years.

That can result in a lot of guilt even though that is arguably unwarranted because we're all doing the best that we can with the tools we have at the moment

kettlebell_workout · 2022-04-18T19:36:06+00:00

I totally agree.

Before a game I was dating virgin. No normal experience with women whatsoever. However, I had couple of actual friends. Once I started to game, I lost those friends, cause in my eyes they were “losers, dragging me down”. Although I improved my social skills and had success with women, I always felt that I have to pretend to be someone who I am not. I have to trick them into liking me.

What’s worst every social situation became like a battleground. “Is he a amoging me, bastard?” “I want to get first into a line, I will gonna up my genuinity and sincerity and tell some bs to those people standing in front, will see how it goes”. “Lets create conflict situation and see how I can talk myself out of it, just for the jizz” and shit like that.

I can’t make genuine connection with anyone anymore. I have no real friends. And have to take therapy to fix all the damage I have done to myself.

Plastic_Remote_4693 · 2022-04-19T06:19:26+00:00

You are not wrong. The “game” doesn’t work anymore because it’s lame. Too many people using it. Women have seen it done time and again and have adapted to it. Nowadays they choose who they wanna fuck and they will give you an opportunity if they like you because they need to communicate their feelings & emotions.

WanyCaleb · 2022-04-18T23:37:30+00:00

I sure wish there was another way but that's not an option for some of us. Just grind and get better. I know it's not what you hoped it should/would be but, that's how it is.

Beginning-Ad-8041 · 2022-04-19T00:51:09+00:00

What material did you read and use?

there is a lot of material out there that is debunked but is still in circulation because it never got taken down by the original creators and or by forums forwarding it back and forth

Rock_Granite · 2022-04-19T01:33:44+00:00

If you keep doing what you are doing you will get the same results. If you want different results you have to do something different. You might as well try game.

cleetusneck · 2022-04-19T02:09:40+00:00

True game is being a flirty, fun, sexy version of yourself.

itsamatterofattitude · 2022-04-19T02:10:25+00:00

Social skills are just that... a skill. Something you practice. Something you get better at as time goes by.

Some are better at it than others. Some are on the spectrum and have anxiety about interacting with other people, and it makes it even harder still.

But it is a skill. And it needs to be practiced.

"Game" as you describe it, doesnt say that you're not good enough, but it does highlight the simple fact: Whatever you're doing isn't working. Maybe it's how you look. Maybe it's how you dress. Maybe it's how you interact with other people. But whatever it is led you here... so obviously... there's an issue.

The problem is most men think they are a tree or a statue and they are either unwilling or afraid to change into the version of them that has a significantly easier time meeting and interacting with people.

It's a process. It's not something you read once and become an expert in. It's small efforts daily that add up to becoming more sociable. Its saying "Hello." to the cashier at the gas station and asking how their day is going and really listening. Regardless of gender. It's getting comfortable just talking to another human being.

The rest comes later.

user009818 · 2022-04-19T02:10:55+00:00

Ok listen I kinda resonate with this but I don't at the same time.. it's not anything wrong with game but it's me, it sounds like it's a u problem too and ur just blaming it on learning game. for me I was too needy with it, creepy with it, not in my element and just straight up uncomfortable . I took some time to work on myself and realized that every girl I mess with is someone who I'm exchanging energies with, somebody who is Being invited into my life... this made me realize screw trying to look for validation from them screw doing all that and I'll just do things my way... living life in the best way I can, I'm going places and I ask girls if I come along, i no longer set plans specifically for a girl, I hilariously find myself still incorporating game simply because of how comfortable and in my element I am... maybe this is just a me thing but for others who may not be as uncomfortable I think learning game comes after being more comfortable, you don't want to feel like you're reading from a script but feel more like you have an extra hand and direction in where you're guiding things .... maybe it's coincidence but as soon as I stopped caring about being in any bodies life except myself, girls started dming me again trying to talk ... girls were more talkative with me rather than me just doing all the work in a conversation, I just stopped caring. And because of this game to me is essentially effortless

TLDR: if you pay game too much mind and u abandon ur own personality to be a certain way then you will hurt your chances of success. You'll come off as extremely desperate... game is not needy thougu but guys who are desperate and needy see game as a get girls free hack which makes them come off worse then if they were just chill with themselves

M3atyyy · 2022-04-19T03:16:58+00:00

At the end of the day, (as a man) either you’re providing money, substantial dick, or drugs. Never seen anybody remotely labeled a “nice guy” get anybody cute on a consistent basis.

For people like me—relatively poor, short, overweight, etc dating is nigh on impossible. So I’ve unfortunately started an intense weight loss program to correct one of those things. Every time I do it, I hate myself more. My blood work is fine, I look fine to myself. But you know? Resorting to jacking off all the time and being lonely aren’t my idea of a fun life.

For you gamers out there—dating is like a meta. If you’re going to stray away from it, you better be pretty fucking innovative. Else, shut the fuck up, get in like like everybody else, and follow precedent.

It sucks. The amount of lame fucks I see getting with women disturbs me to no end. Can’t carry a conversation, aren’t funny, honestly are pretty toxic, but hey—flashing wealth or being jacked af gets you places and survivability is adaptability. Culture really has taken a nose dive into the sewer, but alot of guys like me are out here doing our best.

StaticNocturne · 2022-04-19T03:49:08+00:00

Real courtship literature worth reading reinforces the notion of self-development and downplays the need for validation from women and the arms race to sleep wit has many women as possible

However, some of those pick up exploits do objectively work on most women, so it would be foolish to completely denounce them if your aim is to sleep with someone.

I draw a line with things like the extreme hot and cold approach or compliance tests that seem unnecessary, but a lot of the advice does help.

Sandvicheater · 2022-04-19T04:33:59+00:00

There's being the dude who attends $1,000 pua class and has a shelves worth of PUA books using shit like the mystery pullout method or some shit to attract women only to go home empty handed on a saturday night with blue balls.

Then there's dudes who approach women with the upfront truth, no bs, no lies of what they are and what they want. They get rejected hundreds of times but I guarantee you these dudes pull waay more number closes then PUA mystery men.

perkal8tor · 2022-04-19T05:11:04+00:00

I think you’ll value John Coopers approach. He is anti-game and all about just being your authentic self. https://youtu.be/WxvnSzi6lz8

n0wmhat · 2022-04-19T05:11:19+00:00

tru Ive always thought all this nonsense and all these tricks will end up hurting someone. Better to just be yourself than confuse yourself. Do the guys who have been pulling girls since middle school have all this in their head? no it just comes naturally to them. always has.

BigEpicLZ · 2022-04-19T05:23:48+00:00

I mean what would you rather do? Not get laid and be yourself or learn social skills and get laid? If you're looking for a relationship the by all means forget about game but for fast paced dating you need it.

ecish · 2022-04-19T05:37:05+00:00

My idea of “game” is just having confidence in who I am and playing to my strengths. I don’t lie, or trick women, it’s totally unnecessary. It did take me way too long to become comfortable with it all though, it’s hard to just “become” confident.

Adventurous_Card_144 · 2022-04-19T05:52:06+00:00

"You're not good enough" is an idea that paradoxically comes from people who do game, to make their game better. You are not going far away from where your are at now.

Here's how game it is going to help ya out:

Go out for real. Everyday, 2-3 hours a day. For the next 2-3 years.
Take notes of everything you do.
Think why you suck
Try to change it
Repeat

You are not reinventing the wheel, there's a gazillion of guys who just like you cry about the same thing and come up with the same conclusions as you. Guess what? it's not going to help bro. It's actually going to make it worse. Those guys mental masturbate for some years until the weight of reality is too heavy for you to keep reciting the same mantra.

So be honest about how much time and effort you put into this. It's straightforward and everyone can do it given there's virtually no competition out there. If there's guys who are putting real effort, they should be beating you at game.

Go_Brr · 2022-04-19T09:03:53+00:00

As a counter point

Game teaches you how to be better and make use of your skills

If you have that negative mindset of you're not good enough that's on you.

Game is a rough model to help you be more confident, utilising your strengths and making light of your weakness.

dumsaint · 2022-04-19T12:39:06+00:00

It seems like its constantly reinforcing the idea that you're not good enough.

Insightful. Yes. The old and basic adage of being yourself is the path. Being yourself at all times and, more importantly, liking yourself is fundamental to any long-lasting relationship.

Be yourself. Find someone you can trust is also being themselves and go from there. The discrepancy in truthful living from the heart of either partner creates dissonance and constant "game" to finesse into some ideal.

And when that ideal is predicated on the weakness of one's mind, well, why even be with someone when you're not even with your self.

caesarfecit · 2022-04-19T13:24:00+00:00

I don't mean to be obnoxious but you're doing it wrong, OP.

Game isn't supposed to be putting on a totally false and incongruent persona to impress others. That's needy AF, as OP himself points out.

What game should be about is flirting and having fun with it. My rule of thumb is, if the interaction ain't fun, something is wrong.

I think the truth of seduction is that it's all about roleplaying. That's how we actually persuade people to form a sexual connection with us, by demonstrating that we can play the role desired by the other person. The catch is, if the way you're playing the role is incongruent to you, the lack of authenticity will sooner or later shine through.

That's why the secret to good game is recognizing that the more you work on your self-esteem and investing in your own life, the easier it is to play the role and the less you feel "fake".

Think about it as an exercise in salesmanship, except you are the product. The more you believe in the product, the easier it is to sell.

Thinking game will magically turn you from a depressed and lonely schlub into a rockstar is for teenagers. 90% of game is really done away from women, learning to hate yourself less. The rest is just practicing a few basic flirting techniques and marketing.

riperson · 2022-04-19T14:05:34+00:00

No, it's a super competitive space and if you succeed you become powerful in all areas of your life, essentially becoming the top 10% of guys that get what they want from their life. If you're not comfortable doing that then just wait untill ur 30-40 when women settle down for a nice guy 😏

PatientAssociation62 · 2022-04-19T14:38:24+00:00

I dislike the "game" books because they teach you how to look/act "cool". I would rather BE "cool" or "uncool" or whatever so long as it's just a better more confident version of myself.

Also, how in the hell does anyone actually learn that stuff? I can't keep half of it straight, especially if I'm talking to a girl I happen to like. Should I "neg"? Use this pattern? That pattern? It's just confusing and lame to me.

And worse it's just about getting laid. Yeah, I want to get laid. But I also want a better, more fulfilling relationship with a woman I actually like and desire, not just a warm hole to bust one out in with someone I really don't even like.

BigBreezysc · 2022-04-19T16:18:48+00:00

You're simply growing and getting wiser. Game is only a temporary solution...not a permanent one. Changing your over all mindset will always benefit you over game. There is no tricks you have to remember, or pickup lines, etc when you re program your mindset as a whole... And you can apply it to not just women, but everyday life aspects...

I've felt this way for awhile myself. I'm not really into game now as much as changing the overall mindset of how you interact with women..and life in general. Like you said....it puts too much emphasis on the women, ultimately saying that she is better than you by default. No she isn't better, she isn't worse, she just another human being that happens to be a female...

Perfect_Brain_7964 · 2022-04-23T05:01:11+00:00

game, at least for me, is the way to express your true nature.

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