Gay shaming has to stop

arartax · 2012-06-12T01:14:26+00:00

Thank you. As a gay male I am glad to see topics like this brought up in this subreddit.

Abe_Vigoda · 2012-06-12T00:44:34+00:00

THANK YOU. You sound like you're the kind who considers the larger picture, and that's what we need our friends aand policy makers to learn to do.

MythicalRedFox · 2012-06-12T03:45:00+00:00

As a gay man, I would like to sincerely thank you for making this post.

I honestly don't know why being gay would make you emasculine. I'm stronger, faster, more fit, more fearless, and all around tougher than any of my straight friends, yet being gay somehow means I'm not masculine, and it annoys me that I'm automatically perceived that way.

CrawdaddyJoe · 2012-06-12T00:26:36+00:00

I want to start off by saying I agree 100% that gay-shaming is wrong, and that we need to stop forcing gender roles on men through homophobia, 'emasculation', and gender policing. I agree with that 100%.

I just gotta ask, though- why mentioned slut shaming? Why attack the idea that slut shaming is wrong? Why call those who recognize that slut shaming is wrong, "feminazis" and "white knights"? Just because gay bashing is wrong, doesn't make slut shaming not wrong somehow. They both suck, and it's discouraging that you chose to start off what I was expecting to be a really cool piece with that. I don't know why you need to compare the severity of gay oppression with lesbian oppression, because all that does is turn things into a pissing contest, and nobody like the oppression olympics.

Anyway, back to the main point- gender policing through homophobia. You've more or less hit the nail on the head there, so I'm not really sure what to add, but yeah, basically, we need to fight this idea that being called gay (or emasculating terms like 'bitch' or 'pussy') is some horrible thing, that these words can control us and shame us and guide our actions and lives. These insults work because of insecurity about masculinity and the status of masculinity as this thing to be earned, proven, and defended- it's a really paradoxical masculinity because it relies on the projection of an image of confidence and strength held in place by insecurity and shaming. In part because we devalue gays (and, as we call men female terms to shame them, women), we use these to police men into conforming to a construction of masculinity that is often dehumanizing in that it denies the full experience and diversity of men and men's personhood. We need to not let these words have power.

dakru · 2012-06-12T03:10:58+00:00

I agree with what you're saying, though I think the more direct male counterpart to slut-shaming is virgin-shaming (or the more general creep-shaming, with a creep being any guy whose sexuality a woman or a man wants to put down because his sexual advances were too fast or too slow, or who is too awkward or unattractive).

To quote Matt Forney:

But there’s another double standard that feminists curiously don’t care about — the virgin double standard, where sexually inexperience men are mocked and chaste women are beloved. If you’re a guy, one of the most common insults you’ll get on the Internet is something like this: You’re a fat, ugly loser who can’t get laid!

I have never once in my life ever heard a woman insulted for not being able to get laid. No one will ever shame a girl for only having a handful of sexual partners. It’s well known that when it comes to the all-important “number,” men will lie up while women will lie down. Guys exaggerate the number of girls they’ve slept with, while girls come up with all kinds of cute rationalizations to lower their numbers. “I was on vacation, so it doesn’t count.” “I didn’t love him, so it doesn’t count.” “I only went down on him, so it doesn’t count.”

AlexFeiton · 2012-06-12T02:33:45+00:00

"What are you, gay, man?". I struggled to grasp why that should be an appropriate comment.

"Why? do you want to suck my dick?" were the words you were looking for.

Blahblahblahinternet · 2012-06-12T14:25:09+00:00

On a side note, the ironic thing about Men's Promiscuity being a "status icon," is that it's only a "status icon" because it is a trait that women want in their Men. It makes women feel that HE is the catch, because he's so desirable to all other women.

If they valued celibacy, then I think men's behavior would change.

Meanwhile, I think most men value discretion in sexual partners when it comes to women.

And that's why the double standard exists.

eggilicious · 2012-06-12T08:33:00+00:00

Its not just gay men that have to suffer their sexuality being shamed. Promiscuous heterosexual men are rarely regarded as studs despite what many say. They are assumed to be sexual predators or users of women if they have many sexual partners. Virgin shaming is also rampant, its as if for a guy to have a socially acceptable sex life he must have lost his virginity at 14 and only have ever had sex with that one woman

hell-brent · 2012-06-12T16:30:18+00:00

If we stop the gay shaming, we are going to see a huge drop in teenagers killing themselves because they were relentlessly bullied due to their sexuality. We've all got blood on our shirts from this, so its up to all of us to put a stop to it.

AtheistAgnostic · 2012-06-12T02:23:55+00:00

Lots of girls think I'm gay just because of how I dress (And that "I'm too clean/nice to be straight"- how does that even work!?) and all it does is help me avoid bitches in relationships.

With that being said, it has brought me a lot of hate. I don't really care, but it could be worse. I hate to think of (or hear of) what happens to people that are actually GBTQ

adubjose · 2012-06-12T07:21:56+00:00

~Standing ovation~ I wish I could have articulated as brilliantly as you have, this concept. Me, also being a gay man, appreciate this so much. I wish I could speak out against the misuse of the word "fag" on the internet / video games. However, I'm sure it would only fall to deaf ears. Definitely saving this post. Thank you

2012-06-12T09:07:06+00:00

'men are allowed to have as much sex as they want' should be replaced with 'men have to have as much sex as they can'

Knight_of_Malta · 2012-06-12T12:51:47+00:00

I don't know where those friggin ignorant women come from anyways, where I live, over sexually active men are shamed to no end, while the women are just 'expressing themselves' or some shit

nduece · 2012-06-12T15:45:15+00:00

My god this.... a million times this....

My brother is gay, and aside from the occasional jab, much like the innocent stuff here on reddit, it really pisses me off when people do this.

JockeVXO · 2012-06-12T00:28:37+00:00

These two links might be of interest.

InfinitelyThirsting · 2012-06-12T07:51:15+00:00

Bring this up to a dogmatic feminist as an attack on masculinity. Their programming tells them to respond that it's not against men, it's homophobia. It lets them preach bullshit about "straight cis white male privilege" at people who are often attacked this way, while simultaneously patting themselves on the back for being progressive.

MuFoxxa · 2012-06-12T01:19:24+00:00

I totally agree. And in fact I have used the same "And what if I am" reply to get the person to really think about what they are saying and why.

I do not tolerate Racist, homophobic, anti women or anti man talk or behaviour around me. And I go out of my way to talk to my young daughter about these sorts of things and explain to her that it's ok to not be just like everyone else. That is would be one fucking BORING planet if everyone was a carbon copy of everyone else. And that it's absolutely ok to question EVERYTHING. Not to accept anything without thinking about it first. That no one is perfect nor should you expect them to be.

People have even asked me "but what if your daughter was gay" and my only response would be "why would I care as long as she is happy and loved?" . In fact my only "fear" would be that other assholes would treat her badly due to ignorance more than anything else.

kewl_64 · 2012-06-12T03:46:36+00:00

I love this sub because I agree with everything that is posted, but it also makes me angry that all we can do is talk about issues yet not have the ability to attack them

MikeFromBC · 2012-06-12T04:41:42+00:00

The equal but opposite sexual expectation placed on men is the fact that they are seen as less for not having sex. Women are valued for their virginity while men are not. The opposite being, obviously, the status of women who sleep around a lot vs. that of men.

caipirinhadude · 2012-06-12T05:13:46+00:00

I have 23 and I don't get why so much anger.

Seriously, I'm a straight male and two of my best friends are gay (a girl and a dude). There's nothing about it, done.

ilykdp · 2012-06-12T05:20:12+00:00

Sexuality is a symptom of man and woman - we all feel it and are punished by those around us if we don't express it according to society's standards. The real enemy here is cruelty, towards any person for being different and therefore a target of aggression.

*I have spoken my piece.

2012-06-12T08:51:16+00:00

No, the male equivalent for slut is 'sex predator'.

The difference is that whereas feminists organize marches to protest at the (supposedly) male definition and control of the word 'slut', even on reddit/r/mensrights, you are not allowed to question the feminist definition of 'sex predator'.

Whisper · 2012-06-12T03:24:40+00:00

They claim there is no slut analogue for men

Sure there is. And there is an analogue to slut-shaming, too. Look at the things feminists say about the PUA/seduction community.

Feminists hate sluts just as much as Jesus freaks do... so long as the sluts are male.

AlexFeiton · 2012-06-12T04:43:44+00:00

I'm glad this is getting attention on here, and I'm glad to see that MR cares about this issue. This is one of the massive problems that men face that simply can't be thrown under the rug.

Calling someone gay shouldn't be hurtful. Who the hell cares if you are? There's nothing "immasculine" about homosexuality. I agree: The whole idea that it's an "insult" is what's insulting.

I think this is all due to the objectification that men face in our society. Men are objectified just as much as women, through different media, and in different ways. Submissive, short, or effeminate men are near-universally viewed by women as lacking some kind of worth. Lead male characters in movies are always strong, assertive, or otherwise capable. If they are not, then their likeability and worth is a direct product of their progression towards one of these. Men are objectified, maybe not as objects of sexual pleasure, but as objects of success. A man who is not goal-oriented or accomplished is hardly valued at all by straight women. If women are made into sex objects, men are made into success objects. They are tools, workers, fighters, accomplishers, or doers. If they cannot "do", they are not valued.

Gay men are rarely viewed as real men, even when they act according to all perceivable masculine behavior rules. This is because they are not objectified by women, but instead viewed as tame, safe, unthreatening, or as non-actors. Women objectify men as success objects, and sex success is defined relative to females, either as the ability to please females, or what have you. Gay men are objectified as failure-objects, and according to this paradigm, their masculinity is not valued for what it's worth by straight men or any women, due to the objectification of men as success objects by women. Being called "gay", in this case, is the exact parallel of a woman being called a "slut". Slut shaming operates on the fact that women are valued as sex objects, and attacks them accordingly. Gay shaming operates on the fact that men are valued as success objects, and attacks them accordingly. (Consider how annoying it is that success is defined in terms of women! To a gay man, the whole enterprise doesn't make any sense. To attack us, in this way, you'd have to call us straight! It's insulting to gays that some people think it's insulting to be called "gay".)

For example: I personally had a kind of disturbing experience with my flatmate, where we and a couple other guys somehow got on to the subject of genital injury, or something like that, and when I chimed in, he was quick to scoff “well, but it’s not like you need yours anyway”, which made my blood practically boil. My masculinity was viewed as useless and not valued. All because of the objectification of men as success objects by women, I was viewed as practically worthless.

For another example: I’ve often become friends with girls who don’t mind changing in front of me, or who joke that I’m “allowed” to stare at their boobs. This is because I’m viewed as a failure-object. Like a cat with claws removed. "Claws" are defined relative to females, so my lack of interest to please females is a failure to please females. This is because men in general are objectified by women as success objects

I really couldn’t go on enough about the problems that I face as a gay man because of this, both with straight men, and with women. It’s the class of examples of this objectification of men as success object that I have the most personal experience with, and you can take my word for it: the deepest kind of homophobic abuse I’ve ever gotten has been this kind of crap.

Strange_Dragons · 2012-06-12T01:49:23+00:00

Straight shaming has to stop too.

Codeshark · 2012-06-12T05:57:13+00:00

This topic might have restored my faith in this subreddit. This is the type of consciousness raising we should engage in.

speedy_86 · 2012-06-12T08:45:11+00:00

I loved that 'And what if I was'...that would be my response as well. I think many people feel intimidated by the fact that one does not feel obliged to follow what the herd does.
This also leads to people not really wanting to hang out because I, as a 26 y/o male, do not do or enjoy the things most mid 20s in my country enjoy and explicitly say that I'll pass their binge drinking, visit to the strip club or any club where dancing is not the main reason of attendance.

klonozopanour · 2012-06-12T14:53:31+00:00

I think gay-shaming is a very complex issue. As you get into it you see how much society forces men to submit to a "ACCEPTABLE" male role. It's more than just "gay is bad", it's that "ALL MEN THAT DO NOT CONFORM TO THIS IMPOSSIBLE EXPECTATION OF SELF-SACRIFICE AND RESPONSIBILITY ARE BAD."

As a MGTOW, I see gay-shaming and the "man-up!" sort of sentiments as coming from the same place.

Which is why I can agree, YES gay shaming must stop. Men are not to be defined by society. Masculinity is not to be defined be society.

Men will be defined by themselves only.

thhhhhee · 2012-06-12T05:14:56+00:00

anyone have a link to that youtube vid?

Billistic · 2012-06-12T05:52:56+00:00

Shaming gay shaming needs to start.

AlexFeiton · 2012-06-12T02:22:35+00:00

If you're comfortable and confident of your own sexuality, then it doesn't really matter if someone calls you gay (or a slut, for that matter). While the person saying it certainly has a problem, if it bothers you, the problem is with you. I couldn't care less if someone calls me gay. It's no different than someone calling me a "honky". I just don't care.

BranderChatfield · 2012-06-12T11:28:03+00:00

In my life, what I have come to realize that with so many reactions against homosexuality is that so many have been conditioned to accept it as disgusting and vile and abnormal. Add in the fact of a gay being Christian, that is considered even more revolting. But alas, so many of those who cherish such viewpoints haven't really given themselves much time to willingly interact one on one with a person who is gay.

GatorFtb40 · 2012-06-12T14:02:46+00:00

If anyone is interested in reading more about this subject i would recommend this book by Eric Anderson In The Game: Gay Athletes And The Cult Of Masculinity

great read gay or straight

buffalo_pete · 2012-06-12T14:15:14+00:00

I am very proud of this post, and the downthread discussion where that troll (whose comments were removed by the time I got here this morning) got shouted down. You guys are the best face of the MRM.

Everseer · 2012-06-12T08:56:31+00:00

I've been curious as to /r/mensright's opinion on slut walks and slut shaming. I've been lurking on this subreddit for some time in hopes of coming across a decent discussion, but internet being the internet causes most of them to go to shit.

MockingDead · 2012-06-13T03:46:37+00:00

I would be for "gay walks" but then I would have to regard both the insult gay as harmful to me and "slut" harmful to women and slutwalks as legitimate.

dane_erik · 2012-08-10T16:35:19+00:00

Thanks dude. It's nice to see a straight male addressing this.

Popular-Uprising- · 2012-06-12T16:10:00+00:00

Slut = Playa/Player

Most of the women I know will use the word "player" the same way that "slut" is used and the men labeled as such are universally reviled.

demmian · 2012-06-12T08:33:03+00:00

They claim there is no slut analogue for men

Some/most/all of them? And according to what sources?

The femmenazis and white knights

Is namecalling appropriate when you denounce an instance of namecalling?

gritz4danpatrick · 2012-06-12T09:19:05+00:00

i all with you on this, being rude is wrong but people have the right to say what they want, picking and choosing what people say or believe is a slippery slope that doesn't end well for any of us

MockingDead · 2012-06-12T03:54:15+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Cubbance · 2012-06-12T04:49:47+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Alacritous · 2012-06-12T14:26:32+00:00

Gay shaming will go away when people realize that there's no reason to be ashamed if you're gay. It doesn't matter what people say. Sticks and stones and whatnot.

reidhasguitar · 2012-06-12T03:42:58+00:00

I give shits to guy-sluts too. Just doing my part for equality.

ProbablyProne · 2012-06-12T13:56:03+00:00

I'm glad that you posted that now is the time for these tactics to stop, because it has ended homosexual shaming forever.

CaptainRandus · 2012-06-12T17:02:16+00:00

gay shaming is one thing, but your brother in the restaurant was clearly joking. "what are you, gay man?" is just your brother tormenting you. He obviously doesnt mean it to be an actual insult. Get a sense of humour

lalicat · 2012-06-12T01:29:43+00:00

I'm having a hard time deciding wether or not this even belongs in MensRights. I suppose it does because it affects all men - not just gay men.

However, I must admit that I am part of the problem on this one. I say "what are you, queer?" all the time to my friends about various things. It's always done in a joking manor the same way I call my wife a tramp every now and then. We have a running joke and she will call me a tramp whenever I make a vague reference to her not being the only woman I've ever slept with. I return in kind. I can see how some people might take this a little too serious and say that it's not funny.

I can see how some might call it intolerant and stereotypical, rude and a bunch of other things but I am a 28 year old man. I grew up in a different time and have spent the last 9 years in the military. Anything that comes out of my mouth is probably offensive to one group or another and the worst part is, I don't plan on changing.

I'm going to get down voted to hell but I'm going to go ahead and say it.

I'm a big fan of sticks and stones - namely there is no word someone can say that will hurt me. Believe me I've thought of this a lot. I had a Marine friend who was killed and picketed by those idiots with the "Thank god for dead soldiers" signs. I said well offensive as that is, it does not hurt me as a person. When I was a kid I had another kid say something to me right after my grandma died about her going to hell for being cremated and not buried like the bible said, even then I chose not to be hurt. People can say a lot of things but I think people chose to be hurt by them. Don't get me wrong I didn't exactly smile and nod. However I chose to just brush it off and ignorance. I suggest you do the same thing because if we all talked the same in neutral inoffensive words then there would be no truth. So to encourage people to speak their minds I encourage people not to worry about what they say because sometimes you take the good with the bad. I don't think someone saying "thats so gay" is a bad thing. Just like when women say "typical man" I just take it as ignorance and move on.

rhinestones · 2012-06-12T03:50:23+00:00

I think a presention of the topic of gay shaming would carry more weight if it presented the topic on its own, without trying to determine where it rates on some scale of severity with other things people do to each other. I found the summary tiring to read due to all the finger-pointing.

2012-06-12T06:22:01+00:00

Wait, how is 'gay' the male equivalent of 'slut'? Women get called gay as an insult too.

genuinemra · 2012-06-12T15:09:45+00:00

You know, it's been my experience that people who hate gay men but are fine with lesbians are other men. I do agree - homophobia and bullying are terrible, but I down voted you for saying "feminazis and white knights." It's not a pissing match.

MyTrueFeelings · 2012-06-12T16:56:53+00:00

Are you serious? This isn't a actual problem.

trackerbishop · 2012-06-12T04:53:24+00:00

stfu fag

neilmcc · 2012-06-12T02:11:33+00:00

This discussion is inane. You're just saying be polite and decent toward people which is not exactly a novel concept. There's no reason to single out sluts or gays here. All people should be brought into the fold.

This identity politics, or anti-identity bullying I guess, is no different than feminism. You don't get special rights for being male or female- that's feminist talk. You get your rights from your humanity- 'all people created equally' and all that. Likewise, you don't get special protection from bullying because you are a homo or slut- plenty of straight laced kids get bullied all the time. Why single out one group? It's weird.

AcolyteRB · 2012-06-12T11:52:28+00:00

Yea only faggots gay shame.

Title	Gay shaming has to stop
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	408
Comments	183
Date	June 11, 2012 11:25 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/uwyuc/gay_shaming_has_to_stop/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/gay-shaming-has-to-stop.1020009 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020009

Comments