Men helping men | MensRights

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Having been in a similar place, I found that trying to make big improvements was not only risky but actively harmful; when I'd screw up, I'd look at how difficult the change is and give up.

Personally, I found that my "key" to getting out of that hell was making tiny goals, goals so tiny that even I had no excuse or reason not to do them. Goals like "open the drapes once a day," "get out of bed before noon daily," "eat at least one meal per day"... ridiculously easy goals. Once those trivial goals become easy, you step up another notch, another tiny¹ notch.

¹ I keep saying "tiny" for a reason; I literally cannot stress how important it is to keep these goals super duper easy. If there's any real difficulty at all, then you can make excuses, and if you're anything like I was, then you will make excuses, and that sends you back to square one. Don't do that to yourself; take it slow and easy, never ever push it, and you'll be able to get some momentum going Anyway.

Lastly, I found that initial goals should be centered around you basic physical health, your fundamental needs. For me, that's not just food, water, and sleep but also exercise and sunlight; how are you doing on those?

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You can always send me a private message detailing your flaws so I can get to know you better. Only if you're comfortable with it though.

Seriously, check out Jordan Peterson on youtube. He's a clinical psychologist that also a professor in college. He puts his lectures on youtube. He's been an amazing influence in my life and helped me sort out a lot of shit just from watching his lectures. He's a perfect role model for most men in today's difficult climate.

I've had issues most of my life with pushing people away and blocking people out. It's fucked up because part of you truly wants close connections with other people but there's another part of you that's been so beat down by all the negative experiences in life that getting your hopes up just feels stupid. Maybe that's not what you've experienced but it's what I've gone through.

All I can really say is vent to me and try to get what you're feeling out of your head and onto the screen in concrete words. Also, please check out Jordan Peterson on youtube. I recommend starting with his Theories of Personality playlist.

If you truly want to get yourself out of this rut, pick something simple and basic that's bothering you in your life right now. It can be as simple as cleaning a messy desk that's been annoying you or some task that you've been putting off for a while. Get it done and you'll feel at least slightly better in the moment. Continuing to do so will add at least some degree of feeling like you're in control of your life.

Exercise too. I don't know if you already do or not but the best way to build some self esteem is lifting weights. Even if you're the smallest, skinniest guy in the room, you'll still feel like a beast when you get home after a good work out.

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"never get to save anyone's life" is an odd phrase. Not assuming any more than that, I just wanted to point that out. If you do consider it a privilege to have that opportunity I'd ask if you're really that invested in the other persons well being. Not to say that means you shouldn't 'save them' but perhaps it is a call for self reflection.

The idea that they are unworthy of your attention is, in my eyes, kind of a dick thing to believe. It's 1 thing to say that they can become a barrier for those who need help the most, I'd agree with you there; however you're coming at it from wholly the wrong angle I think. Even pretending to need help with suicidal feelings is cause for concern / points to a problem.

These 'brats' are people too, and many times suicide attempts are a way of expressing something that's oh so hard to express. A way of bringing attention to the fact that something is wrong. If you ignore their needs they will only get more desperate, until maybe they will finally be worthy of your time.

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Semi-off topic: I'm skeptical of the idea that overdosing/poisoning (the method usually associated with women) is a cry for help.

There are multiple variables in choosing a suicide method. Access/convenience is a big one. For lethal methods, guns are the popular choice in the US - trains are the popular choice in Europe. The person who's more likely to commit suicide with a gun is someone who already has access to a gun. Men tend to own more guns than women.

There's also the matter of what you're looking for in a method. Overdosers tend to be looking for a method that's painless and won't leave a pile of gore for somebody to clean up. I suspect that shooters are just looking for a method that's quick and reliable.

A lot of suicide attempts are impulsive. That's true of overdoses too. The difference is that for an overdose to work, you really have to do a lot of research in advance and obtain some lethal drugs. If you just take a bunch of pills on impulse, you'll probably live. If you shoot yourself in the head or jump in front of a train on impulse, you'll probably die.

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Youve just taken the scientific basis for the rules and regulations that society has evolved (because thats whats happened these ideas have evolved psychologically alongside us biologically) and ejected it in favour of less provable and less rigidly defined 'social' definitions.

EvoPsych attempts to explain to us why these hierarchies evolved as they did through as close to scientific endevour as psychology can get but came up with undesirable answers that showed that most hierarchies that have formed in most human areas are a result of competence and not as a result of how some people are oppressed by societal standards and others are not. This is not helpful to the modern 21st Century mode of thinking that attempts to demonstrate the neo-marxist ideas of oppressed/oppressor dynamic as being responsible for why some people are, essentially, useless because it cannot be wrapped up in sweet and cuddly cotton wool to save the feelings of the perpetually sour.

Further you presuppose that societal standards and expectations are negative, which can hardly be claimed true in the slightest.

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Unfortunately humans work on experience. This is "unfortunate" because experiential biases are incredibly easy to manipulate. While the U.S. has gotten safer ever since the 1970's, everybody thinks it's more dangerous due to the experiential bias. Because the news shows crimes at rates higher than it ever did before, and so people think there are more crimes than before.

It has far-reaching implications on perception versus reality in this country, and is one reason why people are so distrusting of one another. We think a pedophile or homicidal maniac might be on every corner, when the reality is you're more likely to die in a traffic accident from people who think they are "totally safe" drivers above the speed limit. Which is yet another of those unfortunate cognitive biases humans have.

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As in the entire civil rights era was the biggest news of its day, and was a movement BECAUSE racism was extremely common (both socially and legally). So the theory that this stuff "gets so much outrage and attention BECAUSE it's uncommon. If racism was an everyday thing most of us encountered regularly, it wouldn't make big news." --- is pattently false given that when racism was markedly an everyday thing around the entire country through the 40's-60's (in every bathroom, water-fountain, classroom, restaurant, school, job, bodies hanging from trees in bouts of vigilante racist justice against made-up crimes, etc...), the outrage and attention to people's attempts at eliminating it and transitioning out of it was huge and one of the biggest points of news in the US all over for the entire era of trying to combat those views and laws. Racism was extremely common, and the people fighting against it were huge stories in the news; that there was outrage and news-coverage wasn't some kind of indication that it didn't exist. Dr. Martin Luther King ain't not famous, and he wasn't not assassinated for his views. Sometimes something is news not because its a distraction, but because it really is news and important and a problem lots of people are experiencing. That something is news isn't some kind of proof of irrellevance, that's an absurd default logic to go to. Skepticism about how profit-driven news operates is good and healthy, but let's not take it so far that we assume anything that we read must therefore be false solely because it's being reported in the first place (unless the particular source is known to have a long history of majority fake and factless made-up straight propoganda)

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For what it's worth, and maybe this is better fit for r/offmychest, but I feel like this needs to be said. Mental health detentions due to suicidal ideation involve locking you in a ward behind armed guards with a bunch of schizophrenics and legitimately insane people. Many suicide risks are just relatively normal acting people who can carry on a conversation and you wouldn't know how much they're suffering inside. The nurses there are overworked and understaffed and you might get 5 min max with a doctor over the entire 3 days. No one trusts you or listens to you because everyone assumes you're crazy if you're in there.

I say this because it's not some amazing healing sanctuary. We have not figured out how to effectively institutionally treat the suicidal or chronically depressed. Sure, it works on occasion, and it can stop the impulse. But it can also do more harm than good in some cases.

My father told us he was feeling suicidal. We didn't know what to do so we asked if he would volunteer to submit to a short institutional stay to help him and he agreed. We assumed someone in there would care or know how to treat him. He came out of the ward 3 days later. He told us how he was treated as an imbecile, ignored by nurses, and sedated with medications. He told us he would never, ever go back, and next time he was feeling suicidal, there was no way he was telling anyone, including his psychiatrist or psychologist. He said he was just going to kill himself because that was preferable to being locked up and feeling subhuman.

He killed himself two weeks ago. These wards have a place. But they are not to be praised. They're as effective at preventing suicide as any locked room. If you just need time to sober up, it can help. But beyond that there is no treatment for the suicidal in there.

[–]I_LIKE_CURED_MEATS 8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

My condolences, friend. It's unfortunate that this is the case in parts of the country. Out here in California, a lot of hospitals and mental health facilities have separate "watch wards" for people who come in as suicide cases, and are seen by a psychiatrist immediately and regularly during their hold. In a lot of cases they will even release early. There are a lot of protective laws here when it comes to mental health (though, we could always do more, and not all county mental health facilities are exactly like this due to lack of funds). No guards, no locked rooms, everything is handled on a case-by-case basis, and there's even financial aid from the state if you have a hard time footing the bill.

I know there are some places in this country that don't have that kind of care and in fact, have the polar opposite. Places that treat people who need a break like criminals. We really need to be stepping back and looking how we are handling mental health issues in this country and fixing it.

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[–]BatterseaPS 72 points73 points74 points 8 years ago* (43 children) | Copy Link

Casual visitor from /r/all here:

I'm not saying my opinion matters or that you need to pay attention to me, but I figured I'd share my thoughts anyway.

I like this post! And I like positive posts about males.

I don't usually like this sub, but maybe I don't understand it. It's not a controversial statement to say that for the majority of history, women have not been considered as fully autonomous individuals -- they've been property, objects, subservients, etc. Maybe that's over now? but that's more controversial and definitely not true for the whole world.

So I get women's rights moevements. I get what they're trying to do. I don't understand where a quest for men's rights comes from. I get that life is hard but internally I probably attribute that more to a modern society that cares less and less about individuals, and devalues humanity in general, including for men.

If I had a suggestion for the men in this sub, it would be to positively contribute to changing the world for the better. One example:

There are almost no men in early childhood education. This is a problem for girls, boys, men, women because we grow up with the impression that taking care of children is a feminine activity, and that men are not as empathetic. And then it becomes true because boys lack those role models in babysitters, nursery school teachers, kindergarten teachers, etc. There is a lack of caring male role models. I plan on entering the field when my kids are a bit older! Consider doing so too.

Also, when I try to arrange playdates and parent hangouts, many moms get weirded out. It makes it trickier for me to socialize. It affects me as a man, but I don't consider it a men's rights issue I guess. It's a social issue: women are still expected to be doing parent things and men who do so are considered odd (this is not always the case but often is). It affects all of us.

The nursing profession is also short on men, for similar reasons and with similar effects. So if you're (typo: into) medicine consider that as well.

Thanks!

[–]AoRaJohnJohn 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MyNameIsNardo 50 points51 points52 points 8 years ago* (13 children) | Copy Link

A lot of activist subs like this don't seem to have a cohesive message. Some users are more constructive, while others are here entirely to cry about radical feminism or SJWs. It's sad, because there are absolutely gender-specific issues on many sides that need addressing, but instead of trying to fix them we just end up slinging mud at each other and yelling "they started it" when confronted by our own silliness.

Instead of looking at whose "fault" it is, we should be looking at what can be done to solve the problems we all see.

Edit: To be clearer about the last sentence, I meant the petty blaming of one group for all our problems. Neither men's rights nor feminism are responsible for gender inequality. Of course we should examine the root causes of the issues. To suggest otherwise would be silly.

[–]DarthCerebroX 22 points23 points24 points 8 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

Instead of looking at whose fault it is, we should be looking at what can be done to solve the problems we all see.

If you don’t look at who or what is causing these issues, then how can we properly address them? Instead of addressing the root causes and actually solving the problem, you just want us to throw bandaids on the symptoms?

I can tell that you’re not going to like this (based on your comments)... but the mainstream feminist movement is directly responsible for creating/compounding many of these issues men face today..... Bias in divorce/family courts, lack of support structures for male victims of rape or DV, lack of research about male victims/female perpetrators, lack of reproductive rights for men, our two tiered justice system giving women preferential treatment, lack of protections for men in sexual misconduct cases, etc etc... All things that have been created or made worse by the actions of the feminist movement over the last 6 decades.

Some of us don’t just bitch about “sjw’s” for the hell of it... because we think it’s edgy or something. We do it because we recognize that one of the biggest obstacles for men’s issues receiving attention and getting addressed is the stonewalling/pushback from feminists. We do it because we realize that by the feminist movement receiving so much support from the general public, it enables them to do all kinds of horrible shit that has a hugely negative impact on men, male victims and men’s issues in general. We do it because we want the general public to actually be informed and understand that feminism isn’t this pure hearted movement that’s always had the best intentions.

[–]ysoseriouslymad 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]DarthCerebroX 12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ysoseriouslymad 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

And he was just pointing out that from his perspective, more people would activate around these types of positive initiatives, and it adds tremendous value and credibility to the cause and message you’re trying to get out there. Far more than the typical perceptions experienced by many when deciding whether or not to participate in a far more complicated issue like the impact of feminism on the development of children. I’m not a psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever, gonna guess you aren’t either, so if you wanna talk about that I’m gonna guess our hands may be tied to an extent. Now, do you need a positive role model to help kids understand businesses? Entrepreneurship? Technology? Cooking? Life decision making? Maybe a few guys would pick up your flag. Create some afterschool resources for troubled young men? I bet you’ll find both volunteer hours and dollars. Try to pick a fight with someone about some rally none of us were witness to and get me to pick up your spear with you? Sorry, I don’t think I can of as much assistance.

Every time somebody cautiously slips there head in the door here like this guy did is an opportunity to engage a new mind to the benefits of your cause, not drag them kicking and screaming directly to the front lines of the bloody fight.

[–]DarthCerebroX 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Every time somebody cautiously slips there head in the door here like this guy did is an opportunity to engage a new mind to the benefits of your cause, not drag them kicking and screaming directly to the front lines of the bloody fight.

Am I doing this? ... Or am I engaging him respectfully and trying to inform him about these actions he didn’t witness and never bothered to research. If he doesn’t want to take a stand against feminism, then fine... but I’m trying to encourage him to take a closer look at their movement instead of remaining ignorant about it and continuing to perpetuate this myth that feminism doesn’t hurt men. ( I don’t mean that as an insult either- he’s just uniformed and never bothered to take a closer look. I used to be the same way and most people are uniformed about these things.)

The mainstream feminist movement has done a lot of shitty things that had a huge impact on men and they continue to do these things today by influencing public opinion and policy... And as long as the general public continues to blindly support the feminist movement because they think it’s only making the world a better place, it will give them the power and influence they need to continuing making these problems worse for men.

I’m not going to shove anything down your throat or bombard you with shit, it already seems like you’re not that interested in taking a closer look.... but incase you are, here’s a short but informative post giving examples of ways in which feminists have fought against men’s issues. And again, check it out only if you’re interested in learning.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g2eme/feminists_tell_you_that_the_solution_to_mens/

As for everything else you said... We do in fact do those things and post about it here. I’ll be honest with you, most of our posts that get thousands of upvotes and make it to the front page are all shit. It’s usually memes, pics with quotes on it, or other shit post type quality. I don’t know why that is but it’s like this is many subs, the most basic shit that doesn’t require more than a few minutes of attention span is what gets upvoted... And unfortunately, all the quality posts that have meaningful conversations and dialog about these issues only get medium attention.

But if you spend a little time here on our sub and don’t just look at the posts that make it to r/all , you’d see posts about students forming college clubs about men’s issues, posts about starting men’s shelters, getting involved with men’s rights locally and how to start your own groups, which bills or policies are getting pushed that will negatively affect men and how to fight against them... stuff that involves real activism and makes a positive change.

I encourage you to maybe give us a sub and check back in every now and then to see these kinds of things. The top posts that make it to the front page aren’t a very good reflection of this sub or its members.

EDIT: Incase you want more info, I left that guy a few more comments which give dozens of examples that illustrate what I’m talking about.

[–]MyNameIsNardo 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

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[–]DarthCerebroX 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here’s a dozen examples of mainstream feminist organizations (such as NOW, the most powerful feminist organization in the world) fighting against true gender equality..

** Karen Straughan on the “those aren’t real feminists” argument**

The following is a very informed comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter.

You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss (one of the most highly regarded feminists alive today- who is credited with changing the federal rape laws and the FBI definition of rape), who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape... meaning whenever a woman takes advantage of an inebriated/sleeping/unconscious man or forces him to sleep with her, these crimes are classified as a much lesser charge.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

—

[–]DarthCerebroX 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

That bias exists both within the feminist ideology and naturally within our species. Its awesome that you can actually recognize those instinctual biases but I don’t understand how you cant recognize the biases pushed within the feminist movement. Almost all stances/narratives/positions taken within the feminist ideology are based on patriarchy theory... this belief that men are inherently privileged and hold power over women in basically all aspects of life. That’s their starting point, the foundation of their “theories”... and it’s reflected in the positions they take and they use that to justify their actions.

You seem like a good person and somebody that might want to learn about these things, so I’m going to give you a little info. Hopefully that’s okay?

I’m on my downtime at work right now and on mobile so I don’t have time to type of everything but I’ll copy/paste, mix and match from some of my older comments. Some things might seem out of context so just ignore those parts and focus on the content.

For starters, there’s this short but informative post giving multiple examples of ways in which the feminist movement has fought against men’s issues.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/g2eme/feminists_tell_you_that_the_solution_to_mens/

I also encourage you to watch “The Red Pill” documentary by former feminist filmmaker, Cassie Jay. This is a great starting point and overview of the men’s rights movement. It gives a fair and balanced view of our perspectives and briefly covers many of our biggest issues.

I’ll leave a couple more comments illustrating what I’m talking about but I encourage you to research yourself. Take a closer, more objective look at the actions of feminists over the last 5-6 decades and you’ll be able to see how they impacted the many issues men face today.

[–]DarthCerebroX 9 points10 points11 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Feminist pushback against Men’s issues receiving any attention.

Feminism and feminists have a long history of fucking over men and silencing men's issues... so yes, they kind of are in direct opposition to men’s rights and true gender equality..

Do you have any idea how the Men's Rights Activists that are trying to bring awareness and fix mens issues are treated by feminists?

Every time MRA's try to hold an event or conference they are protested, and threatened, censored and many times shut down. They are met with chants of "racist, sexist, anti gay- go away MRA". Even academics such as English professor at University of Ottawa, Janice Fiamengo, was trying to give a lecture about men's issues and feminists pull the fire alarm and shut the whole thing down.

They can't even bring awareness to Men's issues, much less start to address them. How can MRA's fight to fix these problems when they're not even allowed to make people aware of them!?

——-

The Domestic Violence Issue

Another example is one I already mentioned, the way feminists have fought to keep a monopoly on the domestic violence issue. You should research Erin Pizzey . She's a women that created the very first women's shelter back in the 70’s. After she had spent so much time with DV victims (men and women because she didn't discriminate) she learned that men were victims just as often as women, and that the abuse often went both ways. When she tried to release her findings feminists fought to censor her. They threatened her, harassed her and ran her out of the country. She went on to co-found A Voice for Men and became a strong supporter of Men's Rights issues.

Also the Duluth Model that was created by feminists in the early 80’s, which states that DV is caused by the patriarchy giving all men power over all women. They claim that because women are the oppressed gender, it's impossible for them to be the aggressor. These ideas were made into laws that have discriminated against male victims for decades and these practices are still in use in many states today.

This kind of behavior and pushback is the reason that there are thousands of DV shelters for women today, but only a few men’s shelters. It’s the reason women’s advocacy groups or women’s DV organizations receive millions in funding to run women’s shelters or research female victims while while male victims have gone largely ignored until the last decade. These obscenely sexist policies and narratives have discriminated against male victims of domestic violence for over 50 years. The censoring and pushback against research about male victims/female perpetrators is a big factor in why there’s so much stigma and misinformation today about male victims/female perpetrators. All the feminist campaigns that women’s advocacy groups have ran for decades painted this picture of the “wife beater” narrative and for a long time, they scoffed at the idea that women could be just as violent to their partners as men. And anybody who went against this narrative and tried to call attention to male victims was harassed, censored and denied a platform by feminists. They are the ones that have controlled the discussion regarding DV and they wouldn’t allow any dissidents.

If you take the time to actually research the feminist movement, you might learn that feminism has harmed men and fought against men's issues a lot more that you ever imagined.

There's a reason we are anti-feminist..

EDIT: regarding feminism and domestic violence....

Even today, with all the statistics showing that men make up half of all domestic abuse victims... and that women are actually the aggressor 70% when it comes to unreciprocated violence....

.. Mainstream modern feminists continue to push these false narratives that domestic violence is a women's issue and that it's Men that are the abusers.

Katherine Spillar , director of Majority Feminist Organization and executive editor for Ms Magazine, said in her interview for the red pill movie that...

"The whole issue of domestic violence-- that's just another word really. It's a clean up word for wife beating.. because that's what it really is.

Its not girls that are beating up on boys, it's boys that are beating up on girls."

Yeah... this is coming from someone with a lot of power and influence in the feminist movement and you could argue that she is a big spokesperson for the movement...

.. And yet she has no problem denying the existence of male DV victims and painting men, and only men, as the abusers.

[–]MajinAsh 36 points37 points38 points 8 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

It's not a controversial statement to say that for the majority of history, women have not been considered as fully autonomous individuals -- they've been property, objects, subservients, etc

Funny but for the majority of history both men and women have not been considered fully autonomous. Lower classes across the world, men and women, have been limited to where they are allowed to live, what they can own ect.

So I get women's rights moevements. I get what they're trying to do.

Why? You listed that things were shitty in the past. What does that have to do with present day?

I don't understand where a quest for men's rights comes from.

Probably from a desire for equal rights.

there are almost no men in early childhood education.

You're right! I've seen plenty of posts on this sub address one of the perceived causes of this: the assumption that men are predators, especially in regards to children.

, but I don't consider it a men's rights issue

Then you'll disagree with some people here. It's a social issue that negatively effects men. Sounds like exactly the type of thing women's rights movements tackle and you said you get what they're trying to do.

I think you've got preconceived notions that are pretty biased. Telling more men to become nurses and teachers is the same as telling more women to become engineers. Women's advocacy groups don't just tell more women to become engineers, they try to break down barriers they think exist, encourage organizations to select for women, secure funding for women and lobby to change laws they think obstruct these goals.

If you have problems with MRMs doing the exact same things rather than just telling guys to become nurses you're going to have to look at why you think these two groups should tackle these problems in such drastically different ways.

[+]scrotuscus -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

I've seen plenty of posts on this sub address one of the perceived causes of this: the assumption that men are predators, especially in regards to children.

Another person here from r/all, and I saw this point and wanted to say a thing.

I'm pretty active over on r/trollxchromosomes, and I've seen a lot of discussions about men not being more present in nurturing roles in children's lives, but in none of them have I ever seen the reasoning for this being that someone believes that men are predators. Not to say that there aren't people out there who would say something so careless, but in my own experience in more feminist circles, it isn't the popular opinion.

Rather, what I've most seen is that it challenges the idea of masculinity and what it means to "be a man", and that actually does more to put men in harmful boxes of repression than to empower them, such as saying "boys don't cry" doesn't allow for men to feel comfortable expressing emotion easily. In cases of working in childcare, looking after children is traditionally strictly a woman's job, and a macho ideology would say that a man in a feminine role like that would make him less of a man, which is ridiculous. The circles I run in would say that the goal then would be to throw out the stigma against "femininity" in the male world, which ties into a more "feminist" agenda, in which they don't want anything female=less.

[–]MajinAsh 20 points21 points22 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I've seen it plenty. I've heard guys talk about dirty looks they get at playgrounds and assumptions that they're there to gawk at kids. I personally never approach kids when I'm out of uniform and everywhere I've worked in EMS with always CYA when it comes to dealing with female psyche patients but never with male patients.

You're also right that the idea of what it means "to be a man" causes a lot of problems. I think that your take on it is a little one sided. If society thought that all women should be caregivers and not be engineers I don't think the solution is to tell women to stop worrying about femininity and what it means "to be a woman", I think we call out that those assumptions should be challenged by everyone. By claiming that the solution in this case is for men to just stop worrying about masculinity makes it sound like the problem is caused by men and not society at large.

If prejudices and assumptions about women held by our culture at large require more than women just shrugging them off, men deserve the same benefit.

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I think you have misunderstood this sub.

Gender roles adversely affect both men and women. Historically women's agency was undervalued, their opinions, their labor, they were excluded from political power, and so on. In addition to these injustices, historically men's lives have been undervalued, and also their importance in child-raising.

They've been expected to do dangerous jobs, and ultimately to die in war if their society demands it. They're expected to work long hours to support their families, but this often prevents them from being part of their families.

Re: the nursing profession, while individuals are diverse and you shouldn't prejudge anyone based on their gender, there are differences between the career choices men and women make when left to their own devices. This means that there may be a gender imbalance in some professions, and it's not due to bias, it's just down to individual choice.

[–]NLRF 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I don't understand where a quest for men's rights comes from.

From the inequality you mentioned earlier.

Women weren't fully autonomous, but that lack of autonomy also absolved them of certain responsibilities that only men were allowed to take. In doing so, many women were absolved of many of the "bad" tasks that men had to perform.

Having pushed through equality in law, and hopefully in practice soon as well, none of these women-empowerment movements ever focused on them having to share the worst tasks that men were asked to endure; and that's where mens' rights movements come from. You see that expanding in modern-day movements: There aren't enough girls in engineering or IT (Apparently because they don't feel welcome rather than because they don't like it), and these are careers that pay well, and have a high degree of comfort in terms of work environment and physical exhaustion. However, they aren't making the case for those jobs in which women are also underrepresented, but don't carry the same prestige/income. Garbagecollectors, military, construction, trades, etc.

In other words, it's asking the same women who protested for equality, to actually accept the negative aspects of equality as well, that their prior status protected them from - at the cost of personal freedom, but still. To bring equillibrium into all matters, basically, even the ones they didn't actively campaign or want. But that's what equality means - if you want to share in the 'good', you should also be willing to share in the 'bad'. A lack of active engagement in those areas from the women campaigning for equality birthed the idea of mens' rights as a movement - to counteract the activism of women that (intentionally or not) skipped these issues.

[–]AnotherDAM 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not saying my opinion matters or that you need to pay attention to me, but I figured I'd share my thoughts anyway.

Your thoughts and opinions matter a great deal to us; people who genuinely care and reach out are what keep this forum vibrant. Without sincere outsiders stopping by this place, like many others, would devolve into a bitch-fest-echo-chamber.

I like this post! And I like positive posts about males.

If you are willing to look a little deeper you might notice that this only ends as a positive post, it really starts as a tragically negative post. What drives men to commit suicide at 4-5 times the rate of women across all of western society?

It's not a controversial statement to say that for the majority of history, women have not been considered as fully autonomous individuals -- ...

This isn't meant to be glib - were you, like I was, raised by a single mother? Upon reflection I don't know of anyone who ever treated a woman like property. Not my uncles, my father, my grandfathers; not a single man I have ever met. This falls under the "one good man" rubric. It is very easy for you to believe this false narrative because it paints you as so much better than your father (forefathers, men in general). It is very easy for feminists to sell since it plays into your natural prejudices - a woman, clearly distressed tells you how women have "always been oppressed" and you want to comfort her so you believe without any critical analysis.

So I get women's rights moevements. I get what they're trying to do. I don't understand where a quest for men's rights comes from.

This is tantamount to saying you don't believe men should have rights; seriously. I think you will find that if you hang around long enough the overwhelming majority of MRAs are actually Human-Rights-Activists who firmly believe in true equal rights and responsibilities. I defy you to find a single documented case of feminists demanding equal responsibilities along with equal rights. Universal MALE suffrage (the right to vote) came only with responsibilities to the state in the form agreeing to be drafted.

I get that life is hard but internally I probably attribute that more to a modern society that cares less and less about individuals, and devalues humanity in general, including for men.

This is kind of weird, before you argued that humans (men in particular) were some kind of uneducated monsters that insisted on owning their women, selling their daughters; but now you are arguing that it was so much better before, "we" valued each other so much more back then. No, read up on our common history; men as individuals have always been valued less when there was conflict. Fodder for war; "women and children first" during disasters.

it would be to positively contribute to changing the world for the better.

Look around you, everything you have - your car, your clothes, the cornucopia of food you enjoy is because men have made the world a better place. What you have internalized is the utter poverty of gratitude that feminists narratives push.

There is a lack of caring male role models.

I have come to doubt this - what I see is a society of feminist inspired rhetoric that utterly disparage male roles. Men do not, in general, show "caring" in the same way women do. That does not make them uncaring.

If, like me, you were raised by a single mother who forced her husband out of the house, then city, then state, where you were raised you might have a lot of justified anger which you directed at your father. I don't have any relationship with my father, I think he was broken to the core by the time I was adult enough to talk about these things but I do forgive him. And I fully appreciate that all of that childhood anger was better directed at my mother but as any psychologist will tell you - it is very difficult to maintain anger at the person who is your sole source of food and shelter.

[–]BatterseaPS 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This isn't meant to be glib - were you, like I was, raised by a single mother? Upon reflection I don't know of anyone who ever treated a woman like property. Not my uncles, my father, my grandfathers; not a single man I have ever met. This falls under the "one good man" rubric. It is very easy for you to believe this false narrative because it paints you as so much better than your father (forefathers, men in general). It is very easy for feminists to sell since it plays into your natural prejudices - a woman, clearly distressed tells you how women have "always been oppressed" and you want to comfort her so you believe without any critical analysis.

This seems like a serious misreading of history. Unless you believe that all historical texts, all philosophical works are some kind of conspiracy, there's a very clear narrative of women not being considered individual humans for thousands of years.

[–]AnotherDAM 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hey OP! I'm not an MRA nor a feminist, but I can wholeheartedly recommend you to watch Cassie Jaye's "The Red Pill" documentary, as someone else in this thread has recommended. It's a look at the men's rights movement from the perspective of a self-identified feminist (who no longer identifies as such after making the documentary). I myself was very intrigued to watch it as I had read about numerous boycotts and cancelled screenings of this film, curious to know what "hateful" content lied within. Like any documentary, it only presents a slice of the truth, but I was surprised to find it wasn't very hateful at all, and it changed my perspective somewhat.

A few things you need to know before deciding if you want to watch it or not, as the documentary is highly controversial:

1) The name "The Red Pill" has nothing to do with the Reddit "TheRedPill" community. Reddit TRP is a sub that glorifies "alpha males" and essentially tells young men that they should treat women as either disposable sluts to pump and dump, or virginal submissive Madonnas whom they can turn into their housewife. It is thoroughly misogynist at it's core and tells young men to "exploit" the system. Men's rights movements point out issues in which men are at a structural disadvantage and want to "tear down" the system. The expression "swallowing the red pill" is used by TRP'ers, MRAs, and other non-related fringe movements as a reference to The Matrix: if you swallow the red pill, you get exposed to a truth that was previously hidden from you.

2) I've seen documentarian Cassie Jaye's claims that she used to identify as a feminist, but doesn't any more, be met with disbelief or ridicule by feminists on the web. Which is understandable, considering how sites like YouTube feature many vloggers who are either dishonest about their viewpoints (for example, calling themselves a (classical) liberal while only espousing many conservative view points) or their intellectual history. (Claiming that you used to be something that you criticized but that you've now "seen the light" is a tactic that people use to lead credence to their "newfound" beliefs). But looking at her previous documentaries, her story rings true. Her previous movies deal with sex ed and LGBT issues, and from reading the synopses, she comes at these subjects with a progressive perspective. You also see Cassie struggling and reevaluating her beliefs throughout the Red Pill documentary. Everything I've read and seen about this women leads me to believe she's a honest person. Nowadays she profiles herself as someone who does not call herself a feminist, but cares about women's issues and men's issues alike.

3) One of the main criticisms levied against the movie is that Cassie goes too soft on the most controversial guy featured in the documentary, Paul Elam. (Never mind that she interviews a feminist after each segment to get a challenging view point). Elam is accused of misogyny as he has written some incredibly inflammatory articles. One quote that's often mined by feminists comes from an article where he declares October "Bash a Violent Bitch month". What is often not mentioned is that this is a satirical article that is a response to a Jezebel article called "Have you ever beat up a boyfriend? Cause, uh, we have", that ridicules and downplays female-on-male violence in a particularly callous way.

I obviously haven't read everything by Elam, so I can't say that there's no misogyny whatsoever in his articles. However, he seems to do what a lot of activists, be they MRA's, feminists, or animal rights activists, seem to do: be as inflammatory, hyperbolic or obnoxious as possible to gain attention. (See the "all I want for Christmas is white genocide" Tweet by a Drexel history professor). This results in two things:

a) Attention, which is a good thing, because people tend to not give a shit about other people's causes unless it's thrown into their faces.

b) Negative attention, which is a bad thing as people will take your inflammatory writings or utterings out of context to paint you as an extremist hate mongerer.

In any case, Cassie does touch on the controversy at the end of her movie, but the documentary is more focused on what MRA's are upset about and the issues that they highlight, rather than the methods they use to draw attention to these issues. Whether or not this alone is enough to make this documentary hateful propaganda is something I'll leave up to you.

Conclusion: I encourage you to watch this movie, with an open but critical mind. Don't take it as gospel, as any documentary, article or other piece of information is going to simplify reality and present things divorced from their wider context. I try to divorce myself from labels as what "being" an MRA or feminist, liberal or conservative etc. does is, it leaves you hypercritical of opposing viewpoints and more amenable to accept viewpoints you already agree with. I try to approach every issue from multiple POVs. This particular documentary opened my eyes to certain issues that I never had thought of as "gendered issues" beforehand, or had really considered in any depth. I don't necessarily think that the MRAs are right about everything or that the feminists are wrong about everything, or vice versa, but I'm grateful to Cassie Jaye that she was courageous enough to go against the grain and make such a controversial documentary.

Edit: I also encourage you to look at the MensLib subreddit, which is a sub focused on men's issues, with a pro-feminist slant. Many people on this sub won't take this in kind as MRAs tend to see feminism as the problem, not the solution. Be it as it may, I think you should inform yourself and judge for yourself.

[–]burn_feminazi 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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From the perspective of a person who doesn't really identify with an gender rights organisation:

it's not controversial to say that women have not been considered as completely autonomous individuals

Yes. Women didn't have the right to vote, or the right to work, or the right to study in many educational fields. And, because they weren't seen as autonomous individuals, they had little responsibilities outside the house. While it was a bad thing, I feel this is a bit taken out of proportion by women's rights groups.

Truth is, women are considered to do parent stuff and men are considered to do work stuff. There Is resistance to people on both sides trying to deviate from this norm. My personal understanding is that these norms benefit some people but disadvantage others

And as to justify the men's rights movement, I think really in the modern day and age in developed nations, there isn't any need for any gender 'rights' movement. A lot of the issues affecting either gender are social and not related to fundamental rights or the law really.

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No. Men need a place to vent about these issues. In fact and contrary to advertised opinion, men are seldom allowed the freedom to complain about issues that effect them as men. The common response to men that do that is to call them "whiners," "man-babies," or similar derogatory terms meant to attack their manhood. You weren't here in the early days of this sub when "self-proclaimed feminists" would come in here and constantly harass, ridicule, and shame the men that came in here to talk about their problems if for no other reason just to have a sympathetic ear and be able to just discuss the things that were tearing them up inside.

If you don't want to read about situations like that, then that's on you and you have the freedom not to look at it. But the very core idea of the sub is for men to have a place where they can talk about these issues that the mainstream just wants us to keep bottled up inside, until the bottle breaks, and then you end up with another male suicide... which unlike the female attempts at it, usually results in a tragic success.

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Women already have a very vast and all-encompassing support structure for their own issues, which includes a significant emphasis on female suicide. Male suicide doesn't get that kind of attention. In fact, a number of police shootings where you later find out the victim was actually suffering from a form of mental illness, these are most likely just cases of "suicide by cop."

On a side note, and not to trying to take you down by me saying this; the fact that you are questioning this issue is part and parcel to the problem with invisibility of male mental illness leading to suicide. If a post like this with a female subject was brought up on a woman's issue board, nobody would question the validity of such a post being introduced there. It's only on boards like this one which deals with mail issues, is where you see people questioning the validity of anyting that might be used or useful in shedding light on a male specific problem.

It's not your fault. It's just the effect of more than half a century of social conditioning. Women have the freedom to analyze and question issues surrounding the existence and Welfare of their own sex. Why can't men have the same freedom? What is it going to harm to allow men to look within themselves and try to sort things out? One would think that both men and women would only gain why men taking the time to try and sort things out within their own ranks. But whenever this happens, it always ends with a merry group of feminists trying to smash the whole thing. How about asking why is that a thing. You might be surprised at what the answer truly ends up being.

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Nah. There are few of us here that happened to be married and have been successful at dodging the bullet at least for now. LOL.

With that being said though, I still believe that marriage is a bad proposition for men right now. It doesn't matter if the woman you're going to marry is actually a normal, good, and well-adjusted person. The legal strictures surrounding marriage at this point of time are far too biased against men. Even though you might Trust a person almost without question, are you going to let them hold a loaded gun to your head? Despite the fact that you are pretty certain that they won't pull the trigger on purpose, accidents do happen. The law as it stands gives women far, far too much potential to do men harm. Until these laws are changed, marriage is going to remain a losing proposition for Western men.

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Society? How about cause and effect?

Disregard for the institution of marriage. Something tells me if the failure rates of marriage are so high (about 1 in 2 in the US or 1 in 3 here in Australia) then they aren't taking it seriously enough. I think divorce rates are so bloated because people don't know their place, every things been turned upside down and along with it the meaning of certain bedrocks washed away.

When you get up there you are taking an oath to the other person, their family and potential a god depending on the service. Both of you have to honour that. But there are a lot who don't and that is where you hear the horror stories. Complete disregard for their place in a marriage because society has told them it has no value.

"Oh it's ok you can just get married again" nah man. The institution of marriage has been shit on my man

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It’s not about cheating or those type of dynamics you find in individual relationships...

The problem he was referring to (I think anyways) is the extreme bias men face in the divorce/family courts, the criminal justice system and other areas where men lack legal and social equality to women which can cause big problems during relationships.

Getting married and having kids puts men in a very vulnerable position to be fucked over by vindictive, scorned women and the biased courts/systems that enable them. If the relationship breaks down it’s very easy for the woman to fuck over her ex for her own self interests. Women can easily make false claims of abuse/violence and get restraining orders, kicking their partners out of the house or making them lose custody to their children. They have all these tools that are meant for actual victims that can be exploited by women without any repercussions or consequences.

Studies show that when it comes to accusations of abuse/violence in divorce or custody hearings, 70% of these cases are “false” or “unfounded”... meaning there’s a lot of women out there that have no problem taking advantage of these systems to fuck over their ex or put themselves in a better position during the divorce.

Here’s some Info illustrating what I’m referring to.

—-

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/7323bn/multiple_studies_prove_extreme_bias_favoring/?st=JC0WGX95&sh=cd4b5b23

Here’s a post I made about the bias in the divorce/family courts. The source contains multiple studies that were commissioned by a dozen various states to see whether there was bias in the family courts. These studies were conducted on family court judges and attorneys. Every single state showed extreme bias against fathers with the judges themselves admitting their own biases and the attorneys admitting fathers aren’t treated fairly most of the time.

As I said before, these studies were commissioned by the actual states themselves... so you can’t get more credible studies than these.

Here’s a HuffPost articles which states that 70% of all allegations of abuse in divorce/family courts are proven false.

70% of all allegations of abuse in divorce/custody battles are “unfounded” or “false”, after investigations. Gimme a min and I’ll try to find the source.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8578086

While meant to act as a safety mechanism in cases where domestic violence is present, the ease of obtaining an order of protection and the instant benefits it provides the alleging party has created a system ripe for abuse. In fact, up to 70 percent of cases involving allegations of abuse during custody disputes are deemed unnecessary or false.

Clearly, protection orders that are meant to offer protection for those in serious situations are now being used as a weapon to turn the tide in divorce; a weapon that overwhelming targets men.

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[–]_-_steve_-_-1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]btcftw1 -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Freeloading_Sponger -13 points-12 points-11 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Macismyname 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]heavyhorse 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[+]Freeloading_Sponger -7 points-6 points-5 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]VIP_UNTIL_WHENEVER 4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Imightseeyousleep 8 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Imightseeyousleep-1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[+]Loufe -21 points-20 points-19 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]sv21js 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]EllennPao -21 points-20 points-19 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Fitzimo -33 points-32 points-31 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 11 points12 points13 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fitzimo -3 points-2 points-1 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fitzimo -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]DueTamPan 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fitzimo -2 points-1 points0 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad -1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]DueTamPan 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fitzimo 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]JohnCenaRoyale -8 points-7 points-6 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]TenBear -6 points-5 points-4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Men helping men
Author	TerriChris
Upvotes	12772
Comments	482
Date	February 26, 2018 11:15 AM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/80cb6v/men_helping_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/men-helping-men.1179264 https://theredarchive.com/post/1179264

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