A Doctor’s opinion on infant circumcision

[+]glutarded2471 points 7 years ago [recovered] (69 children) | Copy Link

Eugene is such a twat in everything else he does and posts, so while I do support what he’s saying here, I wouldn’t mind him taking a high dive in a shallow pool.

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Knight First Amendment Institute v. Trump

Knight First Amendment Institute v. Trump, No. 1:17-cv-05205 (S.D.N.Y.) is a lawsuit filed on July 11, 2017 in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York and decided May 23, 2018. The plaintiffs are a group of Twitter users blocked by U.S. President Donald Trump's personal @realDonaldTrump account.

Planned Parenthood 2015 undercover videos controversy

In 2015, an anti-abortion organization named the Center for Medical Progress (CMP) released several videos that had been secretly recorded. Members of the CMP posed as representatives of a biotechnology company in order to gain access to both meetings with abortion providers and abortion facilities. The videos showed how abortion providers made fetal tissue available to researchers, although no problems were found with the legality of the process. All of the videos were found to be altered, according to analysis by Fusion GPS and its co-founder Glenn R. Simpson, a former investigative reporter for The Wall Street Journal.

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The video does not seem to consider how communism is supposed to have very few control from the government itself, and let the commune do the decision making. It also does not consider the existance of anarcho communism which it against all unjust hierarchies. This is what happens when you think politics are on a linear spectrum.

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“Muh Dictionary definition” fallacy.

You refused to define it, so I did. Or do you seriously believe that “conspiracy” is a satisfactory definition?

I didn’t know that you were an authority on all feminists! What i’ve heard from all the prominent feminists is exactly opposite.

I didn’t say anything about whether or not they believe it exists now. Or at least I wasn’t trying to. I probably could have worded that better. Some feminists believe that it still exists in full force today, and some don’t. But they all believe it existed at least at some point in the past. I’m not an authority on what all feminists believe, but I’ve spent enough time around them to gain a decent understanding of what most of them believe. But that doesn’t really matter to what we are talking about

They all maintain that there’s exists a system and a culture for oppressing Women.

That is simplifying it a bit, but yes. A lot of them do believe that aspects of patriarchy still exist today. But you aren’t arguing that the patriarchy doesn’t exist today, you are arguing it never existed at all

Feudal lords being mostly men doesn’t imply that there’s some kind of invisible system oppressing women, it just means that men are better at being feudal lords than Women.

We don’t even have to go back that far. Women weren’t able to have a say in US government until 1920. Married women couldn’t own property untIl 1848. A law was passed in 1908 so that Women couldn’t smoke in public. Literal rules that kept women from being much besides a housewife. No “Invisible system” keeping them down. A literal one.

[–]SmellyGoat110 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]SmellyGoat110 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sure that Nazis did some good things too. Doesn't change the fact that Nazi ideology is pure evil.

Let's not falsely equivalate Feminism with Nazism, now. I said what I said because at it's core, Feminism is very similar in structure to Men's Rights Activism. They're both movements that involve improving the situation for a certain demographic. The sad reality is that as individuals absorb that ideaological meaning, some will subconsciously adopt the idea that the opposite sex is oppressing them.

Due to the way cultures mutate over time: a culture of identity politics, however noble initially, will invariably fall into the same hateful traps as their predecessors.

This is one thing people keep forgetting. Most working/peasant class men couldn't vote in the past either. So its not like Women were being selectively oppressed by a voting majority of men, majority of men were unable to vote as well.

This is very interesting, have any sources on this? I thought anybody that was eligible for draft was eligible to vote.

MRA is not really an ideology. Feminism is a lot more murky with an ideological underbelly.

Unfortunately it is (if it isn't, individuals will interact with one another & make it so with or without us). MRA will unavoidably fall into the same hateful pattern that Feminism followed due to it's nature as an identitarian movement that relies on immutable characteristics.

While MRA is a lot less murky as an ideaology now, the road paved for the movement is a clearly dark one imho.

I vote we start a movement focused on true equality with an egalitarian name & mission statement.

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Circumcision significantly raises risk of meatal steanosis. Meatal steanosis is practically unheard of in intact males.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6166766/?fbclid=IwAR2DrFlo14E-CBfHpYDAldJJahD_MmdwsNYoyU_u5_DNch0w2C_QESoNi5E

"Circumcised males also have less instances of penile cancer."

Penile cancer is very rare and only happens in older men. If you don't have a foreskin you can't get cancer on the foreskin. If your prone to get cancer it will just happens somewhere else on the body.

"phimosis occurs more often than meatal steanosis, and phimosis is unheard of in circumcised males"

I suspect that most men that have meatal steanosis just live with it so there is no real way to know how common it is. Phimosis is the foreskin being too tight and not allowing the glans out. If you don't have a foreskin it is impossible for phimosis to happen. Phimosis affects less then 1% of adult males and can be treated with steroid creams and stretching. In the worst case scenario a cut can be done on the foreskin to allow the glans out, no tissue removal required. It is thought that one cause of phimosis is forced separation of the foreskin before the natural separation during puberty. Prematurely separated foreskin will try to reattach.

"intact males have higher rates of UTIs"

UTI's are easily treatable and are more common in girls. The risk reduction is very low. The circumcision surgery can result in infections. It is thought that one cause of meatal steanosis is a steady supply of irritation and minor infections on the urethral opening.

"reduced risk of catching STDs"

The US has high rates of circumcision and high rates of STD's while Europe has lower rates of circumcision and much lower rates of STD's.

[–]Agarcole 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lastlaugh100 10 points11 points12 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think the stats on the items listed by the Mayo clinic sheds great insight.

Hygiene: We have easy access to water for hygiene. It’s easy to wash body parts.
Lowers UTI: "It has been estimated that 111 to 125 normal infant boys (for whom the risk of UTI is 1% to 2%) would need to be circumcised at birth to prevent one UTI.". Take a minute and think about how many 111 to 125 boys are. Say your average class of 30 students, half male, that means you'd have to circumcise all the boys in almost 8 classrooms to prevent a single UTI. And UTI’s "can easily be treated with antibiotics without tissue loss"
STDs and HIV: “The number needed to [circumcise] to prevent one HIV infection varied, from 1231 in white males to 65 in black males, with an average in all males of 298.” Condoms are an actually effective transmission barriers to STIs and must be used regardless.
Penile Problems: "An estimated 0.8% to 1.6% of boys will require circumcision before puberty, most commonly to treat phimosis. The first-line medical treatment of phimosis involves applying a topical steroid twice a day to the foreskin, accompanied by gentle traction. This therapy ... allow[s] the foreskin to become retractable in 80% of treated cases, thus usually avoiding the need for circumcision."
Cancer: “Decreased penile cancer risk: NNT = 900 – 322,000”. That means between 900 and 322,000 circumcisions need to be performed to prevent a single case of penile cancer. It is incredibly rare.

These stats don’t warrant prophylactic removal of body parts, and at these stats it's disingenuous to suggest these are true medical benefits. UTIs can be treated by standard antibiotics if and when there is a problem. Condoms are an actually effective transmission barriers to STIs and must be used regardless. Penile cancer is incredibly rare. Prophylactic removing body parts without the patient's consent is not a proportional response to these issues.

[–]Fan-of-all-Seven 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]benny_pro_paine -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]littlefilms 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Circumcision significantly raises risk of meatal steanosis. Meatal steanosis is practically unheard of in intact males.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6166766/?fbclid=IwAR2DrFlo14E-CBfHpYDAldJJahD_MmdwsNYoyU_u5_DNch0w2C_QESoNi5E

Yes Phimosis occurs more often than meatal steanosis, and phimosis is unheard of in circumcised males.

Though I suspect that most men that have meatal steanosis just live with it so there is no real way to know how common it is. Phimosis is the foreskin being too tight and not allowing the glans out. If you don't have a foreskin it is impossible for phimosis to happen. Phimosis affects less then 1% of adult males and can be treated with steroid creams and stretching. In the worst case scenario a cut can be done on the foreskin to allow the glans out, no tissue removal required. It is thought that one cause of phimosis is forced separation of the foreskin before the natural separation during puberty. Prematurely separated foreskin will try to reattach.

[–]boxsterguy 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Phimosis cannot be diagnosed prior to mid-puberty. Any earlier than that and there's no guarantee that the foreskin will be able to retract at all for perfectly valid physical reasons (because it's fused to the glans and can release anywhere from 2 years old to 12 years old or later).

If your brother had "phimosis" at 8, your pediatrician was bad. Even if he did have phimosis (unlikely), if the doctor went straight to circumcision rather than steroid cream, stretching exercises, and worst case z-plasty surgery (where the skin is cut and sutured in a z-shape which shortens and widens the foreskin, allowing for retraction without removal), then that doctor was bad and/or had an agenda (circumcision is a quick buck for an easy surgery, with backend for selling the foreskin for research and/or cosmetics).

[–]benny_pro_paine -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]boxsterguy 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]boxsterguy 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

At the very core, it's a question of bodily integrity -- the foreskin is not some "non-functional" part of the body and there's no compelling reason to cut it off beyond "An imaginary sky fairy told me to," or, "A boy should look like his father." We don't recognize either of those as legitimate reasons for female circumcision, so why would we do so for boys? You can ignore the question of whether or not circumcision is good or bad, because the bigger question is why don't infant boys get to have bodily integrity?

Beyond that, there are functional concerns (10,000+ lost nerves, drying of mucus membranes, higher instances of ED later in life directly linked to circumcision, etc), propriety concerns (why do it on children that can't consent? Is it okay for a rabbi to suck the wound or is that pedophilia?), societal concerns (people claim intact penises are "gross", yet when someone says the same about an intact vagina that's bad and they're advocating genital mutilation), etc. Yes, maybe you don't miss what you never had, but you can try to find out with /r/foreskin_restoration (should be safe for work, as that subreddit doesn't allow NSFW pictures, just discussion of techniques to stretch your foreskin). But just because you're okay with not knowing what you're missing doesn't mean it should be legal or customary to mutilate infants.

And finally, nobody's saying get rid of circumcision entirely. We allow labiaplasty for consenting adult women, for example, even though that would be completely banned as FGM for children. An adult male of sound mind who consents to have his foreskin cut off for whatever reason should be allowed to do so. But we can still outlaw doing that to children without medical necessity (and that "medical necessity" clause is misleading, because there is no medically necessary reason to remove the foreskin of a child).

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Yes. This is why historically Christians don't circumcise, because according to them Jesus did away with the covenants of the old testament. It's also why Christians can eat shellfish and wear mixed fiber clothing and shave their beards and cut their hair.

Circumcision in "christianity" didn't become a thing until the Puritanism movements of the 1800s, and then it was done not because of a religious covenant but because they feared masturbation. Even then, other Christian sects like Catholicism didn't take up circumcision, and many still don't (there was a storyline in the Friends sitcom about Joey having to play an intact Catholic from WWI, but he was circumcised because of cultural reasons rather than religious reasons; oddly enough, that wasn't the only episode of Friends that revolved around circumcision).

Any Christian that says they need to circumcise for religious reasons is an idiot. Jews circumcise for strong religious reasons. Muslims circumcise for weak religious reasons (IIRC, Muslim circumcision is not a convenant with god like Jewish circumcision is; but instead was just a mandate from some priests a few hundred years ago). Christians don't circumcise for religious reasons at all.

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Too bad it's THIS doctor. The cause is discredited by his voice.

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What's he done?

[+]Terminal-Psychosis1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Rabid leftist twitter troll.

Spams the president's twitter account constantly with abusive nonsense.

This, of course, with corrupt twitter admins' full support. :/

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Nothing wrong with spamming that douche nozzle.

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What's so special about him?

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He's the first left wing comment on every Trump tweet. Thought he was a shill or a bot.

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One reason it got popular is as a "anti masturbation" procedure, funded by the founder of kellogs cornflakes (yeah for real)

"As a leader of the anti-masturbation movement, Kellogg promoted extreme measures to prevent masturbation. His methods for the "rehabilitation" of masturbators included measures up to the point of mutilation without anesthetic, on both sexes. He was an advocate of circumcising young boys to curb masturbation and applying carbolic acid to a young woman's clitoris. In his Plain Facts for Old and Young,[37] he wrote:

A remedy which is almost always successful in small boys is circumcision, especially when there is any degree of phimosis. The operation should be performed by a surgeon without administering an anesthetic, as the brief pain attending the operation will have a salutary effect upon the mind, especially if it be connected with the idea of punishment, as it may well be in some cases. The soreness which continues for several weeks interrupts the practice, and if it had not previously become too firmly fixed, it may be forgotten and not resumed.[51] "

Over time pseudo science took over, and before we knew it, it was ingrained in culture. Myths such as "its just a flap of skin", "its cleaner that way", "bacteria will grow in there", and much else ridiculousness is believed and spoken about to this day in the USA.

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[–]sock_lover9 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Circumsicions for both men and women are designed to reduce sexual pleasure to make the person easier to control and create an artificial 'in-group' of 'us Vs them'. Sexual mutilation of babies should never be allowed, even if they are your own babies, THEY own their genitals, not the parent, and the baby should furthermore choose his own religion when he is old enough, that is her or his religious freedom.

If some cult started up today and had rituals like that it would be considered brain washing and child abuse. Even theologically it doesn't make sense, no Christian priests today claim that the benevolent God would create a baby then torture it forever in hell because their parents didn't mutilate them - if it is supposed to be a pact with God the baby should make it when he is old enough to understand the meaning of it, no? Let them decide for themselves if they want the circumcision, no one is arguing for making it illegal for adults.

For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

1 Corinthians 7:19

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[–]Maito_Guy1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Hello, I'm a circumcised guy and I am furious about it, nice to meet you. You live in a genital cutting culture. Your argument is exactly the same one a woman living in a culture where FGM is prevelant would make and it is an appeal to popularity fallacy.

You asked for evidence for my claim, you have then ignored it and gone on to argue about something irrelevant and make stupid assertions. I do not care how you feel about your mutilated dysfunctional penis, I do care that you are promoting the same retarded narrative that people use to justify mutilating babies penises and that you may use in the future to justify mutilating your son. Do you not find it remotely strange that the only part of any babies body we justify cutting off for no reason is the most sensitive part of a boys penis?

http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/ Some more evidence for you to ignore so you can continue living in denial.

[–]luckydayjp1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Maito_Guy1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You didn't even read it, let alone check out the multitude of sources it used. You are obviously not interested in anything but confirming your preconceived notions. I have read many studies from the other side of the "debate" as well and they are incredibly flawed with clear methodological malfeasance.

The APA is the only medical board in the western world that claims the benefits outweigh the harm. American medical associations have a vested interest in funding studies biased studies as circumcision is the most common surgery in the US which means that it generates a lot of money and if they admit it is unnecessary and harmful it opens them up to a plethora of lawsuits. They would also have to live with the guilt of what they have done to so many men and even their own sons, in addition accepting that they have dysfunctional penises.

My circumcision was for want of a better phrase "well done". I am angry because I have had the most sensitive part of my penis hacked off, losing 80% of sexual sensation and multiple important functions. To add a personal anecdote everything I have read about the negative aspects of circumcision ring true for me. I have started to restore and 3 months in to a 2-3 year process have already started getting an amazing amount of sensation back in my glans. Every person I have spoke to that has done restoration says the same thing, it makes a massive difference and that is without regaining all of the most sensitive nerve rich tissue.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x

[–]luckydayjp1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]Aldehydee1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (29 children) | Copy Link

As somebody who was circumcised, I can verify that none of those things are true at least for me (I don't know about immediate pain as there's no way for me to remember whether or not I felt it). The consequences you talk about might apply to a small percentage of circumcised males, but the same argument can be made for males who suffer conditions as a result of not being circumcised. I don't have an opinion as to whether or not circumcision is overall a good or bad thing, but I can say from an individual's perspective that I'm thankful for it.

[–]matrixislife 26 points27 points28 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Gopnikolai 17 points18 points19 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Not arguing, just sharing lol.

I strongly disagree with circumcision and think it’s mutilation because 99% of the time it’s unnecessary and also because the foreskin is naturally there for a reason. Both to protect your bellend and also help with pleasure. I could easily argue that it’s okay to cut your ears off because of ‘health reasons’ in that you’d never have to clean them again. It could be done by a professional surgeon, with anaesthetic and cause no pain, but for some reason people would think it’s different.

Before anyone says ‘oh but that’s different and unnecessary, you don’t know what you’re talking about hurdur’. It isn’t different. Needlessly cutting off parts of your body will never be right.

If you can pull your foreskin back, there is ZERO reason to cut that shit off for ‘health’ reasons. People just need to learn how to wash their knob properly.

[+]Aldehydee -9 points-8 points-7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[+]jerzeypipedreamz1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

Damn. I'm circumcised and it's pretty damn sensitive. To add an extra 80% on top of what I have now, id probably blow loads just putting on my pants. So I'm more than happy to not have that extra 80% sensitivity.

[–]lastlaugh100 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]jerzeypipedreamz1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Ummmm my penis functions just fine. Does everything I need it to and then some. Sorry to hear about your "stage of grief"?

[–]Maito_Guy 10 points11 points12 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[+]jerzeypipedreamz1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (6 children) | Copy Link

Several functions you say? Now I'm intrigued. If you can name me 7 useful functions that foreskin can do for my everyday life I'll stitch that shit back on myself.

[–]Maito_Guy 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

That is an is/ought fallacy. I was not telling you that you should grieve, I'm telling you I think you are in the first stage.

Here's 10

Protects the nerves of the glans retaining sensitivity and preventing a common condition of sensory overload which causes the glans to become very uncomfortable after ejaculation causing a desire to immediately stop intercourse after ejaculation.
Sexual pleasure: most of the messners corpuscles and the most dense concentration of them in the penis, the frenulum, the ridged band and the male g-spot are contained within the foreskin.
Natural gliding function: This gliding of the foreskin over itself during sex provides a lot of stimulation and prevents friction and discomfort for both partners during sex. It also prevents abrasions during sex for both partners which increase STI and STD transmission including HIV.
Provides lysosomes for bacteriostatic action around the glans.
Supplies skin to cover the shaft during erections and prevents tightness.
Prevents the glans from keritonisation which decreases it's sensitivity and makes sex more uncomfortable for both partners. Keritonisation increases the chance of abrasions for both partners during sex which increases STI and STD transmission including HIV.
Stores pheromones and releases them upon arousal.
Stores and releases natural lubrication which prevents friction and discomfort for both partners prevents friction and discomfort for both partners during sex. It also prevents abrasions during sex for both partners which increase STI and STD transmission including HIV.
Protects the thin skin of the glans from injury.
Stimulates partners vaginal wall during sex, particularly the ridged band which was designed by nature to stimulate the G-spot.

And that is not an exhaustive list, nor does it address the issues that circumcision can cause, botched or otherwise.

http://www.cirp.org/library/sex_function/

[–]benny_pro_paine2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Maito_Guy1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]benny_pro_paine1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]RolfMjau 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

To add an extra 80% on top of what I have now

R.N. Marilyn Milos discusses that the “nerve endings in the ridged band (foreskin) are the accelerator that allow the man to ride the wave to orgasm. When they’re cut off the man is left with an off/on switch instead of an accelerator. Men who say they couldn’t stand more sensation don’t understand that the nerve endings in the ridged band give quality not quantity, and it delivers the penis's sensation to the brain.”

To partially answer your other question, although I'm not trying to count out functions, I recommend this presentation. Dr. Guest discusses the innervation of the foreskin, how the most sensitive part of the penis is removed by circumcision, the mechanical function of the foreskin and its role in lubrication during sex, and the possibility of decreased sexual pleasure for both male and partner. (NSFW slides)

[–]thwip62 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]madamsquirrelly 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

It's genital mutilation. While it's not as bad as FGM, you're still snipping a little boy's dick for no sound medical reasons. There are supposed hygienic benefits, but they're so slim or non-existent it's a futile procedure. Sometimes, when older, a man will need circumcision because his foreskin is wrapped too tight around his willy. But that's rare.

Where I'm from (Western Europe), we generally don't do this. It's only certain groups like the Muslims or the Jews who do it for religious reasons, but even they are slowly starting to back away from it (I've met dudes who weren't cut and couples who elected not to have their sons circumcised). We just teach our boys how to wash themselves properly.

A circumcised penis isn't cleaner, per se. As a woman who's into men, I'm gonna take it in my mouth anyway if I like you. Is it more aesthetically pleasing? Sure. But you get the same effect in erection. I see no valid or logical reasons to do this to a boy and some say it actually makes you feel numb down there, so, fuck, it's archaic, it's gross how normalized we've made this and it needs to go.

[+]Sergije31 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

I'm gonna answer with a counter question:

What is wrong with female circumcision?

[–]darksiderevan 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Sergije31 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Well first and foremost, you don't really get to pick whether you get it or not. It's entirely up to your parents as it stands now.

Then secondly there can be complications where the penis can get infected or not properly cut, essentially creating a risk and possibly making you lose your reproductive function, or making it a lot harder to bear anything that happens in that area.

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[–]Rolten 16 points17 points18 points 7 years ago* (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]hagah 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Let me just play devil's advocate here but. I think I wouldn't mind If I was taken my appendicit. Most likely I have no problem there. But there is a chance I do. There is no problem in taking it off, so... If done as a baby, the better. Now... this is on your world of "no drawbacks". When there are drawbacks, it is just a question of weighting the probability of the cons and the probability of the pros (if you're asking, there are cases where circumcisions are actually needed as you grow up, so the pro would be to have it already done, as in the appendicitis case). Now... I think only America regards this as a huge problem. And america right now is so polarized that I don't know if this is a question of some leftist SJW trend to be against circumcision, or if surgeries in the US are just worse more often. I reaaally don't think this is such a drama in Europe.

[–]Rolten 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Let me just play devil's advocate here but. I think I wouldn't mind If I was taken my appendicit. Most likely I have no problem there. But there is a chance I do. There is no problem in taking it off, so... If done as a baby, the better.

Definitely. If there's absolutely 0 risk and harm in the surgery I wouldn't want my appendix either. However, a lack of an appendix of course doesn't affect you, a lack of foreskin does.

When there are drawbacks, it is just a question of weighting the probability of the cons and the probability of the pros (if you're asking, there are cases where circumcisions are actually needed as you grow up, so the pro would be to have it already done, as in the appendicitis case).

True, that's one way of doing it. However, we should do it starting at the base assumption that you don't alter someone's body without very good reason.

And america right now is so polarized that I don't know if this is a question of some leftist SJW trend to be against circumcision, or if surgeries in the US are just worse more often. I reaaally don't think this is such a drama in Europe.

I'm European actually, Dutch specifically. It's not much of an issue here as basically no one is circumcised except muslims and the odd Jew. However, Denmark for example considers banning circumcision:

https://www.thelocal.dk/20180927/danish-parliament-to-consider-ban-on-circumcision-in-october-report

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[–]Derproid4 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is where most people get hung up on the anti-circumcision parade. If circumcision is bad then my parents mistreated me and I'm less of a man. No one wants to believe this so they have to be pro circumcision. This kind of mentality is obviously unhealthy because you're suppressing your ability to have an informed opinion by your belief that you don't want these things to be true. Firstly, forgiveness is an important part of life. My parents failed to get me diagnosed with ADD for a long time and it brought about a lot of extra challenges dealing with it. At first I was upset but then I realized that they simply didn't know better and they weren't being malicious just misinformed and did their best with what they knew. Circumcision is the same way, your parents didn't mean any harm they just did what they thought was best. As for being less of a man I'm not really sure since "being a man" is pretty subjective. I think the most "manly" thing to do would be to recognize that circumcision is not necessary and to not pass the tradition down to your children. Other than that just don't define yourself by the fact that you're circumcised. Sure it's true but it wasn't your decision and has no impact on who you are as a person or as a "man".

[–]RolfMjau 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Rolten 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

So there is nothing wrong with circumcision itself? The only problem lies in the consent.

Oh there definitely is. However, that's the second step. There's benefits to circumcision, there's also drawbacks. I for one (as well as anyone I know) really enjoy having a foreskin and wouldn't want to lose it. I wanted to focus on the first step though since that's an important one.

So if a child willingly asks his parents for a circumcision, would that be okay for you?

I guess? It's just so unconventional that it's hard to imagine. Especially because, given that the kid still has his foreskin, I can't imagine him doing it for any other reason than social pressure (or medical ofc but that's wholly different). Which can be a legit reason, but it is kind of sad to alter your body to fit in.

I guess there should be an age limit though. I think with tattoos it's often 14 years old minimum? That might differ per country though.

[–]14b755fe39 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll reply as a person from the islamic world:

the white stuff under the foreskin (smegma) isn't dirty, doesn't need to be cleaned
There is no medical reason for routine circumcision of male infants/children
its a violation of bodily integrity on a child who can't give consent
circumcision leaves permanent scars, incorrect sutures can cause pain and a crooked penis
even for religious/cultural reasons circumcision can be delayed until, the male is a consenting adult and can make his own decision. (excluding rare medical emergencies)
the glans (head of the penis) is normally covered with mucosal tissue (like the inside of your eyelid or cheeks) imagine turning your eye lid inside out forever and dry it out. A keratinized(skinlike) glans is less sensitive.
similarly the foreskin has many nerve endings it covers the mucosal tissue of glans, it rubs over the glans and is very stimulating and joyful but circumcision removes it. (it is literally genital mutilation)

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[+]thwip621 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I disagree. Many doctors prioritise money over morals.

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[–]lastlaugh100 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]thwip621 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

1: It causes problems for some people. I myself had an operation at the age of 33 because having my penis disfigured caused skin bridges. A lot of times, the frenulum, which even many pro-circ doctors will tell you is the most sensitive part of a man's penis, is removed. As I understand it, some guys can make themselves cum just by stimulating the frenulum alone. Where mine was, there's just a scar now, though.

[–]plainwalk 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]thwip62 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShaGayGay 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]thwip62 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I would also like to say that it is extremely rare for their to be problems with circumcisions especially now because of how good medical technology is.

Why take the risk in the first place? As a parent, you'll spend half your time warning your kids about potential dangers. Putting your son through a procedure he doesn't need, but could cause problems of its own seems idiotic. Years ago, when I had ankle surgery, they were telling me about the possible risks, and I was a grown man at the time.

How do you know "many" people wish there penises looked they way they used to? Because if you are asking people here, there seems to be an obvious bias towards wishing they weren't circumcised.

How many people would have to say "I'm not happy about this" to legitimise the matter in the eyes of the public at large? Sure, there's an obvious bias on a platform like this, but most people wouldn't dare raise the subject in real life for fear of being mocked. Hell, people still treat the subject with disdain on the internet where everyone's anonymous. It took me years to work up the courage to talk about it in real life, and I live in a country where most people are intact. Imagine how someone in, say, America would feel?

That being said, I think a majority of people are fine with being circumcised because you can still have great sexual experiences

A lot of people are "fine" with a lot of things about themselves. Most of these things aren't the direct result of someone making a decision that didn't need to be made, though. When talking about this with my father, he was trying to weasel his way out of it with feeble excuses, so I asked him to imagine how he'd feel if the only reason he was bald right now is because his parents gave him an (imaginary) injection when he was a baby that would make sure he loses his hair in his 30s, and that if not for this, he'd still have a full head of hair. I told him to imagine how he would he feel towards his parents about it. Put this way, he got it. He didn't admit it, but his face showed it.

[–]plainwalk 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShaGayGay -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]plainwalk 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]macaryl95 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RockmanXX 12 points13 points14 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[+]ShaGayGay -6 points-5 points-4 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

It isnt baby torture though? That's like saying babies shouldn't get shots because they will cry and itll hurt?

When they mutilate women's genitals they still have a vagina that works but not the clitoris. Which is absolutely fucked and is completely wrong.

Okay so we both have sex lives that aren't compromised? There are tons of people that do get circumcised later in life because they either dont like they way their penis looks or dont want to deal with the hygiene problems that come with it. I dont ever remember the pain I felt when I was circumcised (if I even felt pain during the procedure)

Lastly, no I was honestly asking a question. Because I'm curious. I dont ever see this posted in other subreddits. If this is the type of response you have to someone asking a question I feel really sorry for you.

[–]airwalker34 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShaGayGay -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]cassepompon 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]14b755fe39 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RockmanXX 8 points9 points10 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

It isnt baby torture though?

If subjecting babies to so much pain that they literally go into shock isn't torture then nothing is. If Babies having to sit through pain for months until their penis heals isn't torture then idk what is. This is all beyond unnecessary, its cruelty towards babies. "babies cry all the time, pfft whatever!" that's your attitude right now.

That's like saying babies shouldn't get shots

Did you just equate GENITAL COSMETIC SURGERY with medical injections? Cosmetic Surgery on babies is already reprehensible, make it a genital cosmetic surgery and you're crossing the threshold of what's morally acceptable.

Which is absolutely fucked and is completely wrong.

At they don't do it to baby girls.

they either dont like they way their penis looks

Literally no one thinks that way. Your penis has surgical scars and you think its normal. Last time i checked, you shouldn't have ANY scars on your body!

I dont ever remember the pain

So its okay to punch babies because they don't remember it? Punching&slapping babies is better than having them go through genital torture.

no I was honestly asking a question

You already know that people are calling it mutilation and you ignore them and ask "why they are upset" despite the fact that you've already answered yourself. We are upset because its baby mutilation! What answers do you expect when you're already given the answer on a silver platter?

[–]ShaGayGay -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Where are you getting this information that they go into shock and have "months" before they penises are healed? I have twin brother and 3 years ago they were babies that need their diapers changed, they didnt have any problems and they're penises didnt have this long recovery time you speak of.

It isnt necessarily cosmetic surgery if it has some medical benefits is it?

When you remove a female's clitoris, you are removing the pretty much the only way the can orgasm. Most females dont orgasm during intercourse because of the penis?

Yes, as hard as it may be to believe people dont like the way their penises look and want then changed or dont want to deal with the hygiene keep up that is required when you have forskin.

Did I say physically assaulting babies is okay? You are obviously delusional if you believe that's what I meant.

[–]RockmanXX 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Where are you getting this information that they go into shock

Did you not read the OP of Eugene?

have "months" before they penises are healed?

ANY wound takes a lot of time to heal. We can't instantly heal wounds. Besides, weeks or months. Its still too long&cruel to babies.

if it has some medical benefits is it?

There are no "medical benefits" of Mutilation. You remind of Fundamentalist Christians, you start with the conclusion that "X is True, so let me find some reasons to support that X is True". The fallacy is that you refuse to question the validity of the premise that "X is true".

And i know that you never will question the moral&ethical validity of cosmetic genital surgery on babies because that would only lead to resentment towards your parents. You don't want that.

Most females dont orgasm during intercourse because of the penis?

WTF are you talking about? I'm talking about Baby surgery here, babies are not having sex! Christ...

people dont like the way their penises look and want then changed or dont want to deal with the hygiene keep up that is required when you have forskin

Yea, don't back it up with any citation or survey. I'll take your incredibly biased word for it! :)

Did I say physically assaulting babies is okay?

You did say that its okay to subject babies to pain because they don't remember it.

[–]ShaGayGay -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RockmanXX 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Dude, it doesnt take months to heal every wound?

Its funny how you're cherrypicking what you want to reply to(or rather, the only parts you can frame any sort of retort to). I've already clarified in my previous reply that it doesn't matter if it a weeks or months, its still unnecessary suffering on babies you CANNOT justify.

you are grasping at straws to keep arguing

I haven't witnessed Psychological projection of this magnitude. Last time i checked, i'm not the one trying to justify baby penile cosmetic surgery.

You are taking what I said out of context when I was talking about female genital mutilation

Yeah and i politely asked, WTF does that have to do with BABIES? That's a red herring, i'm only talking about the ethics&moral justification of Baby cosmetic surgery. ALL you've given me so far is:-

Trivialization of baby's pain(He won't remember the pain, its not mutilation, FGM is worse etc)

You've been constantly dodging the question of baby cosmetic surgery ethics cus you know its an indefeasible and a morally abhorrent position. I've already won by default, the straws i'm grasping on is to drink the victory juice lol

[–]14b755fe39 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

shots have imminent benefits, for the child(baby develops antibodies to many diseases) as well as the general population(those who cant get vaccines are protected by herd immunity), we have eradicated small pox(and polio except for rural afganistan) because of a vaccines invented in the last century where as circumcision has been around for millennia and it gave us nothing.

smegma (the white goop under foreskin) isn't dirty it is a natural secretion, the same argument is made by FGF advocates that it is 'cleaner', it isn't something dirty to begin with...

"you don't remember pain" it disrupts an infants life, it disrupts breastfeeding and regular activities other children.

I was circumcised around 8 under general anesthesia I still had to walk and sleep with a cup over my genitalia for 1-2 weeks after the event. time otherwise used on playing or whatever...

[–]thisiswhyicant 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

It started off as a religious thing and then it became tradition. As time went on, people became less religious and more open to questioning shit. There’s absolutely no reason to circumcise aside from specific medical necessities. Most guys follow the reasoning of “my dad had it done to me, so I’ll do it to my son” and it’s just a social stigma. It’s blatant genital mutilation. I had it done, and I’m glad that I had it done, but I think this issue needs to be addressed. People absolutely flip their shit about the FEMALE genital mutilation happening in 3rd world countries but don’t give a shit about it happening on a massive scale everyday in their own country to men. It comes down to people being straight up ignorant on the subject. And I mean it serves a purpose, it’s a line of defense to protect the head. It comes down to people need to educate themselves and not pass it off as tradition, but as socially acceptable genital mutilation

[–]RolfMjau 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]thisiswhyicant -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShaGayGay -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]goodfoobar 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thisiswhyicant 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShaGayGay -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]rodrigogirao 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]14b755fe39 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

There is no medical reason for routine circumcision of male infants/children
its a violation of bodily integrity on a child who can't give consent for a procedure that will not have any imminent benefit.
circumcision leaves permanent scars, incorrect sutures can cause pain and a crooked penis, painful erections, not everybody experiences these side effects,
it has no medical indication, keep in mind you are giving anesthesia, and perhaps antibiotics for no reason.
even for religious/cultural reasons circumcision can be delayed until, the male is a consenting adult and can make his own decision. (excluding rare medical emergencies)
the glans (head of the penis) is normally covered with mucosal tissue (like the inside of your eyelid or cheeks) imagine turning your eye lid inside out forever and dry it out. A keratinized(skinlike) glans is less sensitive.
similarly the foreskin has many nerve endings it covers the mucosal tissue of glans, it rubs over the glans and is very stimulating and joyful but circumcision removes it. (it is literally genital mutilation)
we don't even do routine appendectomies and the life time risk of appendicitis is 15%, there is not medical or ethical justification for routine genital mutilation of minors

[–]goodfoobar 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShaGayGay 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]goodfoobar 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your one of those that needs hard evidence. Well here is evidence.

Note: The vast majority (not all) of these links from reputable scientific journals, with peer-reviewed research.

1: Women prefer intact penises. And elsewhere you can find men do as well! Source: http://www.healcthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better. Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1464-410X.2006.06685.x/epdf http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping. Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place. http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection: http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the heck doesn't clean their penis? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit: http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

11: Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

12: Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death): http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

13: Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

14: Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

15: Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

16: Circumcision linked to alexithymia http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

17: The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

18: Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

19: There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

20: Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

21: Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

22: Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

23: Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

24: Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

25: Circumcision has negligible benefit http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

26: Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

27: Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

28: Circumcision linked to psychological trauma http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

29: Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behaviour http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

30: CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning: Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

31: CONCLUSIONS: Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

32: CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

33: CONCLUSIONS: The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

34: CONCLUSIONS: Our study provides population-based epidemiological evidence that circumcision removes the natural protection against meatal stenosis and, possibly, other USDs as well. This results in difficulties with normal urination. http://www.thesurgeon.net/article/S1479-666X(16)30179-2/abstract Male "circumcision" is terribly damaging: The foreskin has evolved over millions of years, and every male (and female) mammal has one. Like all of the human body — it's pretty impressive!:

[–]lastlaugh100 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]tangoshotz -7 points-6 points-5 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Wsing1974 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]donald_duck223 13 points14 points15 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Saucebiz 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]thwip621 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

The same president who spends half his day on twitter when he should be running his country? I don't know anything about this doctor, but regardless of what I think about the current US president, or this doctor's comments towards him, I agree with the doctor on his stance regarding cutting babies.

[–]Saucebiz 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]thwip62 -3 points-2 points-1 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]iVah1d -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]thwip62 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]iVah1d -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]thwip621 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

What did presidents do before social media existed?

[–]iVah1d 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]RockmanXX 9 points10 points11 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]sniffing_dog -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not suffering from anything but I did suffer from an infection when I was 13, I'm 43 now, so yep I've had plenty of experience living with a long, tight foreskin. I'm not suggesting violently, forcibly retracting the foreskin, that'd be unwise. What I'm suggesting, is that parents teach children how to slowly, gently retract over time, to clean and to prepare themselves for the inevitable sex later in life. I can assure you, if you have a tight foreskin during your teens, it hurts like hell during sex. But if treated carefully, can provide immense pleasure by utilising all of the extra stretch receptors in the foreskin. The end of my foreskin is long and acts similarly to a clitoris. It's packed with receptors that bring great pleasure when stimulated gently. I'm getting downvotes for offering 43 years of first hand advice, way to go...

[–]lporiginalg -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (55 children) | Copy Link

I never thought on a men's rights page I would see so many people criticizing men for making decisions about their families. if you are against circumcision that's great but that does not give you the right to tell other men how they should or should not raise their families in the amount of people I'm seeing on here criticizing each other for being okay with circumcision is appalling. you should not be telling other people what they can or cannot do with their families if you want to make a decision like that for yourself that's fine but shaming other men for circumcising their children is not appropriate.

[–]RolfMjau 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

My father is uncircumcised.

[–]RolfMjau 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

My father is an Italian immigrant who came to this country 8 years old. He grew up in Queens and was taunted throughout elementary, middle, and high school. He told me straight up he was afraid to get changed in the locker room because of the taunting. He was also afraid to be intimate with girls. He hated that growing up and didn't want that for his kids He also hated having an Italian name. When he had kids, he chose to give us American names and circumcised us. That was his choice to make and I never resented him for it, I was thankful.

Before my wife was pregnant, I wanted to give my son an Italian name and leave him intact, but the more I think about it and the closer I got towards being a father, I realized those decisions had more to do with how I wanted people to view me than what's best for my kid. Maybe someday my son will have a son of his own born into a United States where it's more normalized, but I'm not interested in making him "be the change" I want to see in the world.

I think it's more important to raise your children with an understanding of how to treat other people and respecting other people's rights to making their own decisions for their family than what your dick looks like. Telling other people how to treat their kids and acting like you know what's best for other people is way more damaging to society than what your dick looks like or doesn't look like.

[–]RolfMjau 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (9 children) | Copy Link

So far almost everything you've said has been false. My father is uncircumcised and my son is not yet born. I don't "have to have that point of view", I have it because it's the conclusion I came to in deciding what's best for my family. If you wish for me to make a different decision, you are plenty welcome to come murder me, marry my wife, and adopt my yet-to-be-born son, because that's the only circumstance in which this would be your decision to make. Yes, many people are outraged and think it's a human rights violation. However, I'm not. I don't think it is. I don't think it's wrong to have an abortion either. I also don't think it's wrong to do drugs. People can make their own choices in life, however, when you are a parent it's your responsibility to make choices for your kids. It may be easy for someone like you to assume what's best for a stranger's child, but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Especially on a page about men's rights. Your views on circumcision are yours to have, and I assure you if you said you were having your son and chose to not circumcise I'd have no problem with it, it's not my business! The fact you have a problem with my choices as a father is my business tho. I hope you learn to respect other people's choices.

[–]RolfMjau 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Its great that your son isn't born yet. That leaves you time to read up on this whole thing, and perhaps come to your senses and think like an adult on this whole issue. (realize that teasing and bullying from other mutilated kids isn't a good reason to mutilate your son!?) Answer this, why not just explain to him about the culture you are in, that you cut off pieces of male genitals for no good reason, that the majority of the world is intact, and if anyone would tease him about it, it is because they don't know better? Please answer this, WHY the fuck would you choose to cut off sensitive parts of his penis instead of just having a conversation and telling him about it??, you know what, you aren't even sure he's gonna be bullied about it. Kids get more and more aware these days. he's not gonna have the same hardships you or your father had. It isn't wrong for you to do drugs, it is wrong for you to inject a small baby with drugs, there is a big difference. I hope you learn to respect other peoples bodies. You can't just do whatever you want with your kids and expect the rest of the world to go "welp, he mutilates his kids, but that is his business", you really need to think long and hard. Perhaps read some more about all of this, and have a long hard think about what you are really going to do to your boy, and why you are going to do it.

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Believe it or not, I used to think like you. You act like your trying to advance my opinion when in reality your trying to retard it. I used to be against circumcision, then I realized the holes in the argument. It's not mutilation any more than piercings are. It's superficial. Cutting off a clitoris and cutting off a foreskin are not comparable. Your entire argument is based in what you want for yourself and then forcing that on other people. You are a hypocrite who doesn't believe in Men's Rights, you believe in Me Rights

[–]RolfMjau 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

Actually the foreskin is the most sensitive part of the whole penis. It is very much more mutilation than piercings are. You are in complete denial man. You where mutilated as a baby and now you are going through a series of complete bakwards logic to make it alright. It isnt! Those parts are highly sensitive, (i can't blame you for not knowing that) Wait a minute.. I am the hypocrite who think people should get to decide for themselves if they want their genitals mutilated. You, the pro-genital mutilator, who think that YOU have the right to cut pieces of another persons body is the true champion of human/individual rights. Holy Fuck, Your last sentences are exactly applying to you. you are the one who don't believe in mens rights. You believe in the right for YOU to decide over other peoples bodies. I believe in the right for every man to decide for themselves about their bodies, How is this not completely obvious to you? are you for real??

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+most+sensitive+parts+of+the+penis&client=ms-android-samsung-gs-rev1&prmd=ivn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwji4tOemPDgAhVo-yoKHU75C3cQ_AUoAXoECAwQAQ&biw=360&bih=612

Cutting away really sensitive parts of someones genitals are on par with ear piercings.. YEAH RIGHT.. fuck.

BTW, stick around the MRM and keep on championing for your right to mutilate your kids dicks, im sure you are gonna have a good time with that one...

[–]Twstgames1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (36 children) | Copy Link

If you think parents shouldn't make choices for infants, than I pray you never have kids in my school district! This is one step away from antivax

[–]intactisnormal 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago* (35 children) | Copy Link

This is one step away from antivax

That's the fallacy of association.

But I'll continue discussing circumcision.

The concept you are looking for is medical necessity. If it is medically necessary the parents can act on behalf of the patient. But if it is not medically necessary the decision goes to the patient's himself.

The Canadian Paediatrics Society puts it well:

Neonatal circumcision is a contentious issue in Canada. The procedure often raises ethical and legal considerations, in part because it has lifelong consequences and is performed on a child who cannot give consent. Infants need a substitute decision maker – usually their parents – to act in their best interests. Yet the authority of substitute decision makers is not absolute. In most jurisdictions, authority is limited only to interventions deemed to be medically necessary. In cases in which medical necessity is not established or a proposed treatment is based on personal preference, interventions should be deferred until the individual concerned is able to make their own choices. With newborn circumcision, medical necessity has not been clearly established.

http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision

We can talk about all the stats to circumcision if you'd like. Suffice to say it is very far from being medically necessary. Therefore the decision goes to the patient themselves to make, later in life if necessary. And just so it's adressed, vaccines are medically necessary. Vaccines can not reasonably be delayed until the patient can make his own decision.

The other struggle I seen your post is differentiating between individual rights and parental rights. The very philosophy of rights is based on an individual's rights. There needs to be a strong argument to override someone's individual rights, in this case there needs to be a medical necessity.

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (34 children) | Copy Link

What I struggle with isn't differentiating parental rights from individual rights, what I struggle with is giving adult agency to a child. You believe circumcision is harming kids? It didn't harm me. It did harm my friend who was circumcised as a teenager when his parents let him choose for himself, then he regretted it and had a traumatic experience and now is fearful of doctors.

Me personally, I never once thought about it until I watched a documentary spouting all the facts and logics you and others have stated, and I was firmly against circumcision after that, as a 20 something. Now it's 10 years later, my wife got pregnant. Then we found out it was a boy. Then it turned into a conversation about what's best for our son, not what most accurately represented my beliefs. This wasn't an easy decision, I don't think any choices in parenting are. However, at the end of the day, to me it's more important that my child feels "normal" than it is for me to make a statement about society. That was my choice. If you think I chose wisely, than I encourage you to start a family and make your choice. That's what rights are. If you think my infant son should be afforded the same rights as you, than my assumption would be that you are one of those people who uses other people as strawmen for proving your own ideas about what you think is best for you, projecting your ideas onto other people's kids. Best of luck in your life, I hope your choices are never shamed by others

[–]intactisnormal 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

It's not about giving adult agency to a child, it's that the standard to intervene on his body is medical necessity. Otherwise he can make his own decisions later in life as an adult.

It's not about what 'accurately represents your beliefs'. It is about the decision going to the individual himself.

It's also not about 'my choice'. It goes to the individual himself.

Let me frame it this way. It doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what society thinks, it doesn't matter anyone else thinks. The only thing that matters is what the patient thinks. Without medical necessity the decision goes to him. It doesn't matter to me what decision he makes, he is absolutely free to get circumcised if he wants. The only important thing is that he is able to make his own decision for his own body. That's what individual rights are.

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (32 children) | Copy Link

Your entire argument is based on what you posted that Canada recommends. Your using an authority to claim your argument, and I don't live in Canada. It really doesn't resonate with me your whole medical necessity argument, and doesn't apply to the laws of the land I live in. Best of luck convincing other people to make the choices you choose for yourself !

[–]RolfMjau 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (12 children) | Copy Link

My argument is that it's my kid, it's a tough decision and it isn't as black and white as you people make it, it's my decision to make. Further, I don't believe in telling other people how to live their lives, that's for you to do.

[–]RolfMjau 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

You're attempting to say that I used the appeal to authority fallacy. But I really didn't. I made my own arguments and I reference medical literature yes, but that is very different than saying 'this is what they say so we must do it because that's what they say'.

Regardless of country, medical ethics are pretty uniform throughout the Western world. The same ethics apply.

And finally don't conflate legality with ethical. Currently it is legal, but that does not make it ethical or moral, or more importantly it doesn't make it medically necessary.

And of course I already mentioned that I don't care what the individual chooses for himself. That's a straw man fallacy, you set it up and blew it down.

We can end the discussion with more medical information. The foreskin is the most sensitive part of the penis. (Full study.)

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

You did use the appeal to authority fallacy! Great usage. You believe it's ok to tell other people what's best for them. Best of luck. I'd rather my son have a dick you don't approve of than be a dick who thinks it's ok to tell other people how to raise their kids.

[–]rodrigogirao 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Appeal to authority fallacy is only when you say 'we have to do what they say because they are an authority'. However I used the passage to frame the discussion about medical necessity, which I then talked about on my own. You are free to argue against it, but you haven't. You're trying to dismiss it outright, which is actually the fallacy here.

And you've ignored what I've already written, so I'll copy paste it for you:

It doesn't matter what I think, it doesn't matter what you think, it doesn't matter what society thinks, it doesn't matter anyone else thinks. The only thing that matters is what the patient thinks. Without medical necessity the decision goes to him. It doesn't matter to me what decision he makes, he is absolutely free to get circumcised if he wants. The only important thing is that he is able to make his own decision for his own body. That's what individual rights are.

Notice I'm not telling anyone what's best for them. I want people to have the ability to decide for themselves, whatever that decision is.

And I have to point now, by circumcising your son you are the one that is telling him how to live. You are forcing your own personal opinion on to his body.

[–]rodrigogirao 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]buquoi1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Doctor here, it’s just not true that it’s not medically necessary. There are many cases where it is the better option, medically, not for religous reasons or what ever. This guy is full of shit.

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[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (17 children) | Copy Link

I've got mixed feelings on the whole circumcision thing. My wife's about a week away from birthing our son, and while I do understand the entire argument against circumcision, I'm also a first generation American and my father is an immigrant surgeon who had me and my brothers all circumcised because he hated growing up in America with a "different" penis than the other kids. Our doctor has 3 boys and they're all circumcised, and she uses an epidural on infants before circumcising. I'm also good friends with a nurse in L&D and he says it's also not that big of a deal, while it's definitely not needed and kind of barbaric it doesn't hurt the babies at all if done right. I've also talked with female friends who all say they prefer snipped vs unsnipped. While I would love to live in a world where it wasn't even an option, it seems selfish for me to use my kid as a soapbox. I think I'm leaning towards circumcision.

[–]Boozeman78 11 points12 points13 points 7 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

TBH this comment is really changing my mind, it's irrelevant what my female friends prefer but relevant what you do?

[–]BigMatC 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Boozeman78 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

*My female friends.

The kid doesn't know what he wants, it's your responsibility as a parent to make choices for them until they can make those choices themselves. The real question is, is it responsible to use your child as a platform to make a statement? I understand the arguments against circumcision, I have for years. I understand why we do it in this country (religious nutbags thought it would curb masturbating), I understand that it has no medical benefits, and I understand if done wrong can hurt a baby. But I also understand what it's like to grow up "different' in any way. What do you tell your kid when he's embarrassed about his dick? What happens if he sees mine? Do any of you people actually have kids?

[–]ihateuallverymuch 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Valid point, although the damage would already been done as far as dick shaming goes. My father is an incredibly prude man who's only ever been with one woman (my mother), they met when they were 15 and married at 17. I spent my high school years being very sexually active and never once thought twice about what people did or didn't think about my dick. It's only when I found out my child was a boy that I started to question my beliefs on circumcision, I used to be hardcore against it. Being responsible for someone else changes you tho. It's very easy to hold these beliefs when you don't have a kid, I'm curious how many people on this sub actually have uncircumcised children and if they really feel OK doing that.

[–]ihateuallverymuch 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

I'm not talking about my family shaming my son's dick, I'm surprised you interpreted it that way. My father came to this country when he was 8, uncircumcised. He was made fun of by the other kids at school, that's why he chose to have his kids circumcised. I was bullied for other reasons, but I understand it's an opportunity to be bullied and I understand how it effects my dad but didn't effect me. My concern in letting the kid decide if he wants to be circumcised as an adult is that he would have already been through high school and all the taunts and bullying he might be exposed to

[–]RolfMjau 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Boozeman78 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thwip62 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I've also talked with female friends who all say they prefer snipped vs unsnipped.

You should be worrying about what your son might think about his penis, mcallopivy, not what some random hypothetical women in the future might think. Imagine you cut the boy, despite knowing that it's "unneeded" and "barbaric", and then later, he expresses anger that you did this to him. How would you feel? When, at the age of about 30, I told my own father this, he looked scared. He was stammering. If he could have, I bet he would have went back in time to stop himself from cutting up my dick just to avoid that conversation. Is that how you want to feel? DO you really want to tell your son that you had bits of his penis removed because some women, who at this moment, probably haven't even been born yet might have a preference towards it? Hell, if some woman would reject your son for having a whole penis, she's probably an idiot, anyway.

[+]mcallopivy1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I think the big difference in perspective is that I am not angry at my father. My father is an uncircumcised doctor who chose to have his kids snipped and frankly I'm grateful for it. This entire argument from this sub is the one thing I disagree with about men's rights. To me, it's not fair for strangers to tell me what I should be doing with my kids, it's my decision to make. Furthermore, to use your children as a soapbox to state your social beliefs seems selfish to me. It reminds me of anti-vaxers to a degree.

[–]thwip62 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I think the big difference in perspective is that I am not angry at my father. My father is an uncircumcised doctor who chose to have his kids snipped and frankly I'm grateful for it.

My father was an immigrant to England from a country where some people cut their kids (boys and girls) and other people don't. Your father cut you to make you match your peers, not him. I think he was misguided, but at least he was thinking of you, although it would have meant more if he had gotten circumcised himself. My father did it to me in a country where people don't do it so that I would match him. He did it for himself, not me, he couldn't even come up with a good reason when I questioned him.

To me, it's not fair for strangers to tell me what I should be doing with my kids, it's my decision to make.

But...you admit that you're letting other people's opinions on the subject influence your decision. All I did was say that you should be more concerned about what your son might think about his own body than what some women he may encounter might think about it.

This entire argument from this sub is the one thing I disagree with about men's rights.

Yet here you are, talking about it. I don't, for example, care about the anti-meat sentiment than many of my vegan friends constantly post on social media, but I don't get into slanging matches with them about it. I ignore it.

Furthermore, to use your children as a soapbox to state your social beliefs seems selfish to me,

How is not performing an unnecessary procedure on your newborn son's penis using him as a soapbox, at least consciously? And if it is, you could just as easily argue that having him cut is using him as a personal soapbox to express your beliefs, mcallopivy.

[–]airwalker34 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]intactisnormal 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]intactisnormal 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

If someone wants to circumcise himself for his own culture, he is absolutely free to do so. Really he is.

I think we have to frame this conversation about when someone else can decide. The Canadian Paediatrics Society puts it well:

Neonatal circumcision is a contentious issue in Canada. The procedure often raises ethical and legal considerations, in part because it has lifelong consequences and is performed on a child who cannot give consent. Infants need a substitute decision maker – usually their parents – to act in their best interests. Yet the authority of substitute decision makers is not absolute. In most jurisdictions, authority is limited only to interventions deemed to be medically necessary. In cases in which medical necessity is not established or a proposed treatment is based on personal preference, interventions should be deferred until the individual concerned is able to make their own choices. With newborn circumcision, medical necessity has not been clearly established.

http://www.cps.ca/documents/position/circumcision

The parents can intervene when it says medically necessary. Otherwise the decision goes to the patient himself to make. And he can choose to circumcise himself if he wants, for whatever reason he wants to.

[–]rayrdarogue1 point 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]intactisnormal2 points 7 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]rayrdarogue 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]freedomowns1 points 7 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Even if the baby has a paraphimosis?

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[+]Zambamboozled1 points 7 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

As someone who's been throught the healthcare system in both the US and Canada, all I can say is fuck yeah, socialist healthcare! I love glong through life knowing I won't go bankrupt if I get cancer getting cancer.

[–]RolfMjau 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]plainwalk 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]MaximumRecursion -10 points-9 points-8 points 7 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

I'm so tired of internet morality brigading mobs. Circumcision is not genital mutilation. And I guarantee if any one of you were having a conversation in person with someone who had their kid circumcised you wouldn't say a word. But if someone had their daughter's foot bound, breasts amputated, or said they can't physically have sex because their vagins was mutilated you would rightly be appaled.

It's so much easier to act all high and mighty with an anonymous mob on the internet. Instead of attacking all parents that carry on their traditions that have been going on for literally millennia. Call out other parents for actual shitty parenting, do big brother programs, push for more federal funding for social programs for kids. You know, shit that actually matters, rather than how someone's dick looks.

The shit that happens to the vast majority of kids before they become adults is infinitely worse than circumcision, and can ruin their lives. If your life was ruined because you were circumcised than that tells me two things: You probably had a pretty decent childhood if that's the worst thing that happened to you; You probably have mental issues not at all related to being circumcised.

[–]thwip62 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

And I guarantee if any one of you were having a conversation in person with someone who had their kid circumcised you wouldn't say a word.

You can "guarantee" this, can you? That's awfully presumptuous considering you don't know anyone here in real life.

Call out other parents for actual shitty parenting, do big brother programs, push for more federal funding for social programs for kids. You know, shit that actually matters, rather than how someone's dick looks.

It's almost as though...people can care about more than one thing at once. Crazy, isn't it?

If your life was ruined because you were circumcised than that tells me two things: You probably had a pretty decent childhood if that's the worst thing that happened to you; You probably have mental issues not at all related to being circumcised.

So, not being happy about the fact that your penis was disfigured means you have mental issues? Wow.

[–]RolfMjau 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaximumRecursion -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

The foreskin.

TLDR (because this is going to be a rant):

People need to stop judging people, attacking different culture and beliefs, and mind their own damn business. This sub being against circumcision makes me realize the men's right movement has no hope. You are ostracizing traditional conversatives, about the only mainstream group that agrees with you, so you can attack parents for practicing their religious beliefs in private.

RANT:

I completely see why people can be against circumcision, but to call it genital mutilation is ridiculous, and an horrendous attack on all religions and parents that practice it. But since it is against a religious practice the internet hate brigade is all over it, and making extreme blanket statements that apply to anybody that does it.

If it was some of the left's questionable positions I would be called a bigot for even questioning it. Here are some examples, and I am talking about reddit in particular.

Letting children determine their gender. I read on r/parenting where a family turned a 6 year old twin boy into a girl, going so far as legally changing his name. Fucking 6 years old, and it was celebrated by everyone on the sub. That is going to fuck that kid up way more than a circumcision. Can't find link
There is a 9 year old boy whose parents dressed him in drag and took pictures next to a mostly naked man. Link: https://www.dailywire.com/news/42081/10-year-old-boy-dressed-drag-pictured-naked-amanda-prestigiacomo
Late term abortion which is basically infanticide. I know you'll say it never happens blah blah blah. But the left supports it and I'm not going to waste my time arguing it because you either think they do or don't.
Giving hormone blockers to pre teen and teenagers.

Saying anyone of these is bad for a child (much more so than circumcision) I would be attacked. But instead I am attacked because I chose to follow my family tradition for literally millennia.

This sub needs to get it's head out of it's ass. You are going the same way as the leftists, and attacking the only mainstream allies you have. If you are against circumcision fine, good for you, but don't attack people for practicing their beliefs.

I got my kid circumcised, and I am a great father. If you tell my I mutilated my kid's genitals to my face you better be prepared for a fight. And there are a hell of a lot of other men who agree, but probably won't say here because of the internet hate mob.

[–]RolfMjau 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It is mutilation. You have a hard time thinking rationally about it since it was done to you. You may be a great father, but on this area you did wrong. As did your parents. You didn't know any better. Religion is no good reason to mutilate other peoples bodies. that makes no sense. I guess you don't believe in freedom FROM religion then? the right to ones own body? Yes there are other men who agree, but guess what, tons of people hate being circumcised, stick around for minute, meet them, and realize that all their suffering is because an uneducated someone else/parent made that choice for them. You are by definition mutilated, and mutilated your kids. That sucks. I don't think you did it because you are a bad person. You just did what was the norm without really questioning it. Of course we will attack people's beliefs if we see them as harming to other people. thats just being a compassionate person. It's not about shaming people who had it done or didn't know any better and got it done to their kids, just about stopping this whole practise and making people more educated about it. cause people aren't. they think its just "extra skin".

[–]MaximumRecursion -2 points-1 points0 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 2 points3 points4 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Your penis was mutilated, the foreskin is a big part of the natural penis. Circumcision the way it is performed routinely without any medical cause on small children is mutilation of the genitals. Yes your dick works just fine, that doesn't change that it's wrong to cut that part of someone elses body. The part that gets cut off is highly sensitive. and serves many functions. You should stick around and read these kinds of threads in Mens Rights, they pop up more and more. You'll see many people that absolutely hate being circumcised. Mutilating kids genitals makes you an asshole, not pointing out how wrong it is to do it. You got that completely backwards mate. It's not a hate mob. These are people trying to end a completely insane and horrific practice that should have no part in a developed society The MRM is already gaining traction in the real world. just the last couple of years i've seen this movement grow, it's not gonna stop anytime soon. People care about the rights to their own body, the right to freedom from religion. Basic human rights. We don't have them. I do state it, and my friends do too. It's our duty to tell it like it is.. People get upset. But most havent really thought about it. They just take it as a personal insult as it is something that has happened to them, and they don't want to feel "wronged". People in America aren't educated about it. Their Sex Ed books often doesn't contain info about the foreskin so people believe in myths/fearmongering instead of basic biology.

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I completely see why people can be against circumcision, but to call it genital mutilation is ridiculous

it's mutilation... of the genitals... fits the definition perfectly. Same with FGM.

and an horrendous attack on all religions and parents that practice it.

if your religion requires you to cut off part of a child's penis then fuck your religion. Your rights end where another's body starts. If you want those rights then you can't be upset if muslims try to get FGM legalized, or some satanist tries to get child eating parties legalized (I know satanists don't really do that)

But since it is against a religious practice the internet hate brigade is all over it, and making extreme blanket statements that apply to anybody that does it.

if you take a knife to your kid's dick then you made a very shitty "choice" that would be child abuse if you cut off any other part of them. correct?

Saying anyone of these is bad for a child (much more so than circumcision) I would be attacked. But instead I am attacked because I chose to follow my family tradition for literally millennia.

slavery also existed for millennia. I also am not for the things you listed above. One can be against the general fiddling with of children, you are just as bad as them tho.

I got my kid circumcised, and I am a great father.

great parent's don't cut off healthy parts of their children.

If you tell my I mutilated my kid's genitals to my face you better be prepared for a fight.

why, because the truth makes you that angry? You know you could have just NOT cut off part of his penis right?

And there are a hell of a lot of other men who agree, but probably won't say here because of the internet hate mob.

It's not a mob, it's a fight for equal rights. My body my choice jackass.

[–]MaximumRecursion 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MaximumRecursion -1 points0 points1 point 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 4 points5 points6 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 3 points4 points5 points 7 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]MaximumRecursion 0 points1 point2 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I was trying to be open minded about all this, and honestly I think you guys are right, and there should be awareness on this issue.

But after seeing how this sub treats people who had their kids circumcised when they had no idea their was even a controversy about it. I'd rather not be a part of it.

This sub has way too much hate, and after being the subject of that hate, I can see it for what it is. As I said many times. PowerToAnnihilate would never talk to someone that way in person, nor 99% of the people spouting hate on here, but does so because of the anonymity and circle jerk of reddit subs.

I guess the best I can say is I hope he learns to deal with his issues, and learns to treat people better. But if the horrendous things he said to me are any indication of how he acts, he doesn't deserve any sympathy or a decent life.

You seem like you want to discuss issues rationally. Most of this sub is the exact opposite. I wish it would get better, but after what I seen today I doubt it will happen. I never seen such toxicity online before. I know it exists, and seen it, but not to this degree, it was really eye opening.

[–]intactisnormal 1 point2 points3 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]roadtoD1 -7 points-6 points-5 points 7 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

actually toddlers don't get dick cheese. the glans is fused to the foreskin for many years. some can't even retract it until they reach puberty.

You get dick cheese too if you dont wash yourself. it ends up in your underwear. Girls produce even more. Thats no reason to cut off their bits. They just wash..

"In an intact male, smegma keeps the glans glossy and moist. Women likely see or feel smegma every day around their clitoris and labia, but may mistake it for vaginal discharge and pay it no thought. If not washed away, smegma may turn a creamy color and consistency and begin to accumulate underneath the foreskin or around the vulva. Both men and women can easily remove it with water during a bath or shower before it becomes noticeable.

In circumcised males, depending on the style of circumcision, smegma likely just wipes off onto the underpants as it is produced. Males with a “loose” circumcision (less foreskin removed) might find that smegma accumulates under their remaining foreskin or behind the corona of the glans."

[–]roadtoD1 -5 points-4 points-3 points 7 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 6 points7 points8 points 7 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]roadtoD1 -4 points-3 points-2 points 7 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]rodrigogirao 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PowerToAnnihilate 7 points8 points9 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RolfMjau 5 points6 points7 points 7 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	A Doctor’s opinion on infant circumcision
Author	carbot117
Upvotes	2737
Comments	563
Date	March 11, 2019 4:32 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/azozpm/a_doctors_opinion_on_infant_circumcision/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-doctors-opinion-on-infant-circumcision.881936 https://theredarchive.com/post/881936

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