Why is the general consensus on reddit that this subreddit is horrible and sexist?

TheMachinations · 2015-06-09T15:05:55+00:00

They must maintain the mirage of a chauvinist, traditionalist, misogynist majority in the MRM to create believable negative propaganda against it. They will not be able to do this forever, though, because you can only keep people in ignorance with propaganda while they are getting information only from you, rather than checking themselves. Each person who comes here and finds something different will reach different conclusions.

Asher-D · 2015-06-09T14:47:31+00:00

I think it's because a lot of people believe feminists and believe that women are the oppressed and men are the oppressors, although they don't realize how ironically they themselves are sexist for thinking that. People generally don't give a lot of thought to things they don't care about and since the feminism movement is so loud and feminists tend to bash men's rights, average people listen to feminists and take their word on things. And also if you come in this sub it could rub you the wrong way if don't get the sarcasm or if you don't get why people are so angry about it that they are being sarcastic about it.

Frittern · 2015-06-09T15:47:15+00:00

Because you will encounter an alternate perspective on the effect of gender within society here. Acknowledging alternate perspectives is hard it requires that you diminish the automatically assumptions you rely on and attempt to take on view of others and do so without the intent of simple dismissing them as invalid. Holding seemingly contradictory positions in ones mind simultaneous and assigning validity to both is the signature of a mature mind. It is also an extremely difficult thing to do. I think the power in being able to see the truth of things from multiple perspectives is worth the work. A lot probable most people would disagree. Please Tell me what those saying we are horrible and sexist are probable thinking?

See to me the truth is not so much a function of an knowable singular absolute value but rather a matter of perspective and the more perspective you can observe something from the better. If you observe a car crash from one angle you interpret the speed and spatial distances differently than someone viewing from another position. Who is right? What is the truth? Well truth is a function of perspective and with this awareness a more accurate approximation of what happened can be made. But a more accurate approximation of truth, of fact only occurs when we acknowledge the validity of alternate perspectives.

In this way the thought generated from men's rights advocates is valid as it offers a counter balance to the more dominant perspective of feminism.

I see Feminism rhetoric as the underdog that achieved victory yet is unable to adjust to the new reality of it's current status. This kinda outlook can pave the road to the kinda authoritarianism we see emerging from contemporary feminist thought. Feminist ideology is now emerging from the highest echelons of power in corporate boardrooms, through legislative,judicial and executive branches of government. "what about teh menz" is not the product of an ideology of the oppressed seeking equality it's the rhetoric of power wishing expand dominance and dismiss rival perspectives.

So you wonder why people say men's rights folk are horrible wonder why people say we are sexist? Well you can do as most do and dismiss a alternative men's rights perspective as invalid or you can do the hard work of trying to see things from a different angle a different perspective, it's more work and it's easier to just dismiss and mock but if you do the work you can attain a powerful insight and tool.

notnotnotfred · 2015-06-09T15:01:54+00:00

The same reason people are intimidated by feminists anywhere else in the world: loud emotional propaganda, sometimes accompanied by whiny emotional propaganda and sexy emotional propaganda, and even a few outdated or emotionally twisted facts.

Juan_Golt · 2015-06-09T21:10:46+00:00

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who ardently believes the general feminist terms. That societies are designed to disenfranchise, possess and subjugate women. All of the flawed statistics confirm your views. Wage gap, 1 in 4, etc... systemic exploitation of women. The one missing piece is that there aren't enough real misogynists to justify your outlook. You've been told for years that it's a 'man's world', yet all the men you know seem to be just getting along with their lives like you are. Despite being raised for years to eagerly leap to challenge the evil patriarchy that oppresses women, you can't seem to find anyone who holds that view. Who are we fighting?

Suddenly someone comes along and challenges your assumptions about gender. How quick are you going to put the 'misogynist' label on them? How easily do you suddenly find the enemy you have been looking for?

Whisper · 2015-06-09T18:44:19+00:00

Because you are not dealing with honest, well-intentioned people. They do not care what the reality is. They care about the message they wish to create.

windkirby · 2015-06-09T15:23:27+00:00

I feel like it really is just misandry. People have difficulty perceiving that caring about men's rights doesn't mean hating women, due to a combination of impressions about male as oppressor and male disposability. Because they incorrectly perceive that men control the universe and that women are their victims, caring about men's rights seems to be just misogyny.

Demonspawn · 2015-06-09T15:22:20+00:00

Because we're speaking in favour of men and against gynocentrism, which upsets both feminists and traditionalists alike.

belil569 · 2015-06-09T16:50:02+00:00

Because its run by people like Ellen Pao.

victorymonk · 2015-06-09T16:27:38+00:00

Probably that's a better question for /r/AskReddit than here. Media tends to portray this subreddit and people interested in man's rights very negatively, often comparing it to KKK. Now if you think that something is KKK will you really go bother to check their sites to see what they are about? No. So you just trust the media.

Having said that, my purely anekdotal impression is that when people do bother to come and check, they find it to be very different from what they heard.

mushybees · 2015-06-09T16:52:57+00:00

it's a censorship tactic. their hope is that if they get enough people spouting this propaganda against the MRM, then normal people will believe it and dismiss anything we might say.

as my man Tyrion said; 'if you cut out a man's tongue you do not prove him a liar, you are merely proving to the world that you are afraid of what he might say'

so what are they afraid of? that if people were to actually listen to us they might see that they agree with a lot of what we say? that we might start to poke holes in their patriarchy theory? that we might even dispel the notion that modern first world women are oppressed?

well, yes. if they're not oppressed, they can't justify their sexism. if they're not the scrappy, righteous underdog, the david to our goliath, if they're the ones in a position of social power, then their bigotry, their prejudice and their misandry is no longer justifiable. they'd have to come to terms with the fact that they are the bad guy.

so they smear us, they attempt to disrupt our events, to provoke us into retaliation so they can hold that up as an example of what we're all about. instead of discussing the issues, they try to turn it into identity politics. instead of engaging in a dialogue, they try to shut us down. to silence our voices.

but we will not be silent any longer. we will speak up where we see censorship, we will will speak up where we see inequality. we will resist these authoritarians and we will expose their lies. we are the men's rights movement and we're here to stay.

xdrunkagainx · 2015-06-09T17:55:40+00:00

Because anything where women aren't better than men = misogyny.

headasplodes · 2015-06-09T15:52:05+00:00

Because reddit is full of SJWs now. Men's rights contradict their narrative of women still being oppressed in the western world so they say that MRAs are just fat neckbeards who hate women to discredit it.

akbyouandme · 2015-06-09T16:34:58+00:00

Just a few thoughts on why:

Treating a woman in a benevolently sexist manner is seen as normal or equal. Treating a woman as an equal is seen as sexist.

The act of criticizing a woman in the way you would a man is sexist. Feminists are majority women. The act of criticizing feminists is sexist.

When someone has entrenched themselves in a view that is not open to interpretation or criticism they become zealots. Zealots lash out vocally and often physically at dissenters. People are less likely to examine a statement by a zealot if it seems logical... at first. People will often go so far as to repeat it without verification. Once they've picked a position they are less likely to change save for highly compelling evidence or life altering experience.

People are illogical and hate uncertainty. Reevaluating one's position on an issue creates uncertainty.

EvilPundit · 2015-06-09T16:45:03+00:00

Stickied for discussion, since the last sticky thread was getting a bit old.

Sasha_ · 2015-06-09T17:43:20+00:00

Two reasons I think.

Firstly, the right dislikes us because of the 'Women Are Wonderful' affect, which means any criticism of feminism and/or women is seen as something that must be repelled or attacked. Simply put; it's seen as 'un-chivalrous' to represent the interests or well-being of men.

However the Left REALLY hates us, because we're seen as 'reactionary' or pinning for return to "the status quo ante, the previous political state of society, which possessed characteristics (discipline, respect for authority, etc.) now seen as lacking."

There are well-established ways to refute and attract both sides, though sadly the MRM fails to use most of them due to it's lack of political savvy and co-ordination.

wazzup987 · 2015-06-09T21:02:58+00:00

[permanently deleted]

DavidByron2 · 2015-06-09T21:23:04+00:00

Feminist brigading (passively encouraged by the Reddit admins no doubt).

tallwheel · 2015-06-09T19:21:55+00:00

[permanently deleted]

sillymod · 2015-06-09T17:23:38+00:00

a) Please stop treating Reddit like a big conglomerate of groupthink. It is much more accurately described as a society of individual, independent subgroups.

b) On Reddit, people upvote more than they downvote (in my experience). Why? Because a person will upvote something that they really like, but apathy will stop them from caring about downvoting since they can easily just move on to the next thing that interests them. Thus, it takes significantly more dislike of something to downvote than it takes like of something to upvote.

c) People participate in things in which they have a significant vested interest, and do not participate in things in which they do not have a significant vested interest. For example, a regular, daily top front page post for /r/MensRights might get a few hundred votes. Does this represent the entire community of MR? No. How do I know? Because there are posts with 3000+ votes. These posts are more representative of the community. What these posts are evidence of is a subset within the MR community that has a vested interest in that post.

So, on to the issue at hand:

This subreddit isn't uniformly viewed as horrible and sexist by the reddit community. There are people who despise this sub (feminist groups, mostly), there are people who disdain this sub (traditionalists/white knights/others who have a view that the topic here is unnecessary), there are people who dislike this sub (due to misinformation, reading news articles that libel/slander us, etc, or experience with commenters on reddit with whom they disagree and have a link to this sub), there are people who don't care about this sub (people who just don't care about gender issues, for example), there are people who like this sub, and there are people who are devoted to this sub.

Recall the issue of vested interest. When a post attacks /r/MensRights, it is going to draw a crowd of people with a vested interest in that post - mainly the detractors and advocates. The detractors do out number the advocates (since detractors also include white knights/traditionalists), but the bigger issue is that most of the advocates will just brush it off and move on.

Once upon a time, some members of this subreddit were big into social-justice-warrioring across reddit, getting involved in any gender related topic, etc, and that earned this subreddit a bad name for the behaviour and the fervour observed in its advocates. That also contributes to the situation.

The "sexist" nature of a sub, however, is going to be in the eye of the beholder. You don't view this sub as sexist because of your personal definition of sexism and your personal bias in glossing over things that are sexist. Everyone does this - blindness to the wrongs of allies. Is this sub sexist? That can only be determined under a provided quantifiable definition of sexism, and that definition will change based on the ideology of the definer.

knowless · 2015-06-09T16:01:35+00:00

Astro-turfing, media spin, etc.

cymrich · 2015-06-09T16:59:16+00:00

its just like theists and evolution... they dont know the facts and trying to explain it to them is pointless because they've already made up their minds and inconveniences like facts and truth aren't going to change that! they will grab on to some idea of what we are just by our name alone and are too closed minded to learn they are wrong.

unbent_unbowed · 2015-06-09T17:00:36+00:00

They cherry pick the most offensive content from certain posters. Unfortunately there is a pretty good chunk of stuff from which they can pull. The main problem is that people don't care to investigate the sub/movement beyond the narrative put forward by those outside. People in this sun do the same thing to feminists and it is mutually destructive.

iongantas · 2015-06-09T21:45:39+00:00

Feminist propoganda mostly.

ThePigmanAgain · 2015-06-09T23:21:03+00:00

Propaganda rules, reality drools. People believe what they are told by the media and the media says we are scum.

SigmundFloyd76 · 2015-06-09T23:33:03+00:00

Some of the most enlightened thinking i've come across has been on this sub.

Of course we'd all agree that Galileo was an enlightened fellow too, wouldn't we. How did it turn out for him?

rg57 · 2015-06-10T05:13:51+00:00

This sub is a mirror, and people don't like the image of themselves that it shows them.

wazzup987 · 2015-06-10T05:48:20+00:00

the red pill

Avoid this term or you may be confused with /r/TheRedPill

1994bmw · 2015-06-10T05:53:05+00:00

Everyone on reddit is a smug, uninformed moron in regards to at least one thing.

bhobh · 2015-06-10T07:50:31+00:00

because it is not all about women and their issues, men are not allows to have anything to themselves anymore. it has to be about women or it doesn't matter.

ExpendableOne · 2015-06-10T15:56:58+00:00

Short answer? This

Trail_of_Jeers · 2015-06-10T16:33:30+00:00

Treating women like equals is misogynistic.

Treating women like superiors and special snowflakes is equality.

Mocking a female criminal who got off light, used a defense that should ensure she never is allowed near children again, but is still allowed near children is seen as hateful.

But ignoring the long term effects of sexual assault charge given to a 17 year old boy when he has consensual sex with his 16 year old girlfriend. Or the cp charges when she initiates setting, well, that's just keeping a peso off the streets, am I right?

2015-06-10T16:44:10+00:00

Because media is run by feminists and have consistently portrayed MRM in a negative light. I just read an article by a "neutral" journalist who intwrviewed sillymod and then went on a tirade against MensRights.

yelirbear · 2015-06-10T17:36:42+00:00

There is a lot of focus on evil women and less so on actual men's rights. The posts are meant to show change public perception to how both men and women can be equally evil but is just preaching to the choir and comes off as circle jerking about evil women. There are still lots of quality posts and opportunities for action, discussion and education on men's rights that are often overlooked because of the aforementioned posts. Furthermore, there is a loud minority of MRA extremism similar to those in feminism that are adamant to prove all men are oppressed. Typically these are downvoted but they still set a tone for discussion. I used to be more active in this sub but now I am just a lurker for actual men's rights discussion.

Also, there is an overlap in the community with members of sexist subs so some will paint both subs with the same brush when that is not a fair thing to do. The majority of this sub is very level-headed and true egalitarian like the rest of reddit.

2015-06-10T18:38:01+00:00

Reddit is overrun with Feminists. Their CEO is a woman who filed a lawsuit claiming gender discrimination and failed wildly and still acts entitled regardless of that fact. Add to this that some subs with large numbers of feminists (e.g. 2X) have become default subreddits and you start to see why.

Feminism is the default narrative on reddit, and being anti-male it doesn't like when men talk about their issues.

2015-06-09T16:38:38+00:00

This may have already been said. But it is because of the people that often talk about real issues as if they are a joke and as if there are more important then other issue. There are some people that comment and post on this subreddit that post things about hating women and negative things about women. Which is not what this sub is about. A lot people take serious issues and make them a joke. We are not here to say that other groups of people do not have issues we are here to say that issues that face men are real and are actually rather common. We just want more people to look on these issues seriously. For example, every time someone posts something about woman on man domestic violence, there is always one comment, along the lines of "why didn't he just fight back." or "he should have hit her". I think it paints this subreddit in a really bad light. People don't actually look at this good posts on this subreddit they just see these comments and assume we are all asshole woman hating people. It also doesn't help that people (mainly the tumblr people) paint this subreddit in such a bad light that everyone just assumes we are like /r/womenhate.

we all got issues, just different magazines

Ultramegasaurus · 2015-06-09T17:02:47+00:00

Is it really so hard to understand? Propaganda and ignorance.

Herelam · 2015-06-09T17:06:43+00:00

It's simple. It's because they hate men. What else?

xNOM · 2015-06-09T18:17:47+00:00

Whenever someone mentions this sub, it seems like they are flooded with downvotes and comments saying stuff such as "fuck that sub" and "this sub sucks". Or they get spammed with pictures of fedoras or something

Who the hell cares. They are imaginary internet points. The facts will out.

TheWheatOne · 2015-06-09T19:45:44+00:00

Because what they've grown up with in terms of culture, to open themselves to a fact that so much of it is wrong, is like popping you've been in your whole life. Its very uncomfortable.

EvolvingRedneck · 2015-06-09T23:59:08+00:00

Politics. Feminists generally fall under the democratic side and politicians will pander to them because they are a majority of voters when compared to MRA's. Just last year during a speech President Obama spoke about how we must fight the women's wage gap.

rbrockway · 2015-06-10T10:51:31+00:00

The people who disparage us are our best advertisers.

A proportion of people go to look at this ''awful MRM'' themselves, realise that we're reasonable and what we're saying makes sense (even if they don't completely agree with us). Some of those people will say and help out.

I first heard of the MRM from feminists telling anyone who would listen how awful the MRM is.

EvolvingRedneck · 2015-06-10T14:55:07+00:00

Because us men are the villain. Despite all we do for others we are bad guy, the jester, the looser. Only now, with men taking a stand and walking away, are people starting to pay attention.

ocdscale · 2015-06-10T15:52:48+00:00

Here is why I have a negative opinion of this subreddit. The current top submission is this one titled:

40yo female school teacher rapes SIX(!!) 11-12yo boys over a 6 month period. Found guilty, later acquitted for "woman can't be held accountable for own actions syndrome", an outcome covered up by disgusting mass media.

The story is indeed disturbing. And I agree that it's seems unlikely that a man would have received the same leniency (initial 5 year sentence, later successful mental illness defense) for the crime. It is no surprise that women receive greater leniency in sentencing (or put another way, men received harsher punishments for the same crime). Compound that with the issue of female pedophiles (well illustrated by the mother's quote in the article) and this story is a powerful reminder of gender issues that really should be addressed.

But the quotation provided by the OP appears no where in the article or subsequent appellate decision. Yet there are very few comments pointing that out, and all of them are very low. At the moment of my posting, a comment attributing the quoted language to the judge (which there is no evidence for) is more upvoted than a comment pointing out that the quoted language doesn't appear in the article at all.

This phenomenon exists in a lot of subreddits and I don't mean to suggest that this subreddit is unique in this regard. Plenty of subreddits exist in an echo chamber designed for people to air out shared grievances. Facts are not as important as feelings in these subreddits.

When the OP of that submission claimed that the woman was acquitted because of "woman can't be held accountable for own actions syndrome" (the acquittal isn't even mentioned in the article linked), the factual accuracy of the claim wasn't as important as the 'fit' of the claim with the readership's worldview - as evidenced by the comments.

That's why I have a negative view of this subreddit.

marswithrings · 2015-06-09T16:50:26+00:00

As a general rule, I disagree with the accusations as representative of the movement as a whole. I agree with other comments saying it's necessary for opponents to maintain their narrative, and it makes it easier to discredit the MRM if they just can attack the cartoonish neckbearded basement dweller instead of addressing the actual issues. However, clearly we have our own extremists like the feminists have "feminazis" (and ours almost always seem to be TRP).

Example: I saw one guy around here who tried to say that rape "doesn't hurt the 'victim'," and that women don't like rape "because it adds sex to the pool," and "devalues the sex they can offer".

Or, hell, how about the commenter at the bottom of this very thread that said "I will admit to being sexist".

Utter shit like that is pretty uncommon and usually we're good about downvoting it. But at the risk of getting circlejerked against - the sad truth is there is a grain of truth to such accusations. I think rather than pretending that crap doesn't exist we just need to take it as a reminder to quash that nonsense when it rears its ugly head. It's less of a no true scotsman to say "that's not really what the subreddit is about" if we can show a history of speaking out against people who take it too far; if we have a history of clearly stating that isn't what we're about.

I believe another contributor is anger. Though vastly different in many other ways I think one thing feminism and the MRA have in common is that they by nature attract the disillusioned. Men and women who've been screwed over and really seen how bad it can get tend to show up, and they can, understandably, be quite bitter. I try to keep the context in mind of why they are angry, but the fact will remain that people sometimes say things out of that anger that will read - especially to a stranger with no context - as a lot more aggressive than it was probably intended.

And again, I'll try to stress just to be clear, that I don't believe that's what this sub is really about. I would have left long ago if there was actually nothing but thinly veiled misogyny here. But sometimes I do see that line crossed, and I would ask that those who still have a level head call it out when they see it. Aim to get this sub to be beyond reproach, focus on the issues and the facts, and be better than those that oppose this subreddit.

wazzup987 · 2015-06-10T03:01:14+00:00

[permanently deleted]

andejoh · 2015-06-09T16:09:06+00:00

"Is it just a case of "the red pill" (the unpleasant truth, gender equality might not be as one sided as they've thought) or something else?"

Sexism.

DougDante · 2015-06-09T23:36:15+00:00

Because you're fooled into believing the flood of downvotes and negative comments is a result of the "general consensus".

It is not. It is a result of bot searches and keyword triggered brigading.

Karissa36 · 2015-06-10T13:27:34+00:00

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/38hg4t/entitlement_nice_guys_and_feminism/

It's because of posts and threads like this one above. Also the red pill type posts and comments. Also A Voice for Men. Also the gamer gate group. Also the constant attacks on feminism.

Also what appears to be a complete lack of any productive action in the men's rights movement. Example: Bitch endlessly about how men are victims of domestic violence also and yet have very little access to domestic violence shelters. Blame feminism. Rinse and repeat again and again and again and again... Number of men's shelters for domestic violence actually created by the men's rights movement: zero.

The public perception of the men's rights movement is a bunch of bitter, angry, socially dysfunctional men who have no interest in doing anything except sitting around complaining and blaming. That obviously will affect the perception of this sub on reddit.

cuteman · 2015-06-09T18:01:38+00:00

Attitude reflects leadership

koji8123 · 2015-06-10T13:15:02+00:00

See sidebar link of difference between MRM and feminism.

A lot of people think MRM/feminism are two sides of same coin. Others feel like mra is synonymous with men, when it's not. Others still even believe that feminism is an attempt at female superiority while MRM is an attempt at make superiority.

Lists of why are near endless. But they're ignorant.

I just want equality.

2015-06-11T03:05:03+00:00

Even anti-feminists have bought into the idea that the mrm is sexist and stupid. its sad.

galway88 · 2015-06-10T01:59:00+00:00

This sub manually approves posts by staffers and contributors to A Voice for Men, even though AVFM has been banned from reddit for its doxxing and persecution of its women enemies.

If mens rights, not revenge against women, is the point, the mods must stop supporting and posting avfm. Otherwise it's pretty clear it's all about hate and bigotry against women.

rustyrudders · 2015-06-10T11:10:00+00:00

A quick Google search will tell you the ratio of men to women in the US government, CEO positions, and even the film industry. Our society is ruled primarily by men -- and even if you don't see it in your personal life, the fact is that gender inequality is a statistical truth. Sexism has persisted for the majority of human history, and to fight for "men's rights" is to undermine the very recent progress of gender equality. Yes, men's issues are real and valid, but most of these issues stem from the very narrow gender roles our patriarchal society promotes. If we want to have an intelligent discussion about gender, we have to acknowledge the history that has brought us here. In the same way that nobody here would argue for "white rights", we shouldn't be fighting for a majority that already has most of the power. Let's respect the reality of women's disadvantage in our culture (and cultures across the world) and open up an informed discussion about how we can solve these problems.

tallwheel · 2015-06-09T21:11:31+00:00

[permanently deleted]

2015-06-10T01:40:23+00:00

Redditos who say such things are whiny little bitches. They have a club that visits on Thursdays at my home, they shampoo my crotch.

2015-06-09T15:09:20+00:00

I will admit to being sexist. The 'equality' the feminists seek is not. It is an artificial balance maintained at enormous cost to the state and economy. In the long term it cannot be sustained and we will revert to traditionalism.

Title	Why is the general consensus on reddit that this subreddit is horrible and sexist?
Author	KrukigTomte
Upvotes	119
Comments	162
Date	June 9, 2015 2:25 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/395yw6/why_is_the_general_consensus_on_reddit_that_this/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/why-is-the-general-consensus-on-reddit-that-this.978102 https://theredarchive.com/post/978102

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