Clitoraid [clitoral repair surgery for suffers of FGM] supports Florida mother who faces prison for refusing to have her little boy Genitally Mutilated. Clitoraid asks U.N. to ban childhood Genital Mutilation worldwide for both genders

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I'm not a doctor, I'm just stating what other journalists have reported.

http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/03/judge-to-jail-mother-unless-she-signs-consent-for-sons-circumcision/

The circumcision in this case is not being done for religious reasons, interestingly enough. The boys father said that the decision was made after the boy was having certain urinary problems, a condition which a pediatrician diagnosed as phimosis. This condition prevents the retraction of the foreskin. The result was the boy urinating all over himself.

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-parents-circumcision-battle-in-court-20150306-story.html

The father said he decided to pursue the circumcision in December 2013 when the boy was 3, after noticing his son was urinating on his leg. The father on Friday said the boy's pediatrician had diagnosed a condition called phimosis, which prevents retraction of the foreskin.

It could still be bullshit, but then the story is even worse than I thought.

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If I was suggesting they are all making it up, then I am also suggesting that all the women in many parts of Africa and the Middle east who are cut and report being totally satisfied are making it up. After all, they claim hygiene and health reasons for the procedure, and claim that any opposition towards female genital cutting is some huge clitoris conspiracy. They don't know the function and use of the clitoris, because they lack it. Just like the doctors don't understand the function and use of the foreskin, because they don't have one.

As a matter of fact, They actively reject information from every other health organization in the world. They seem to be stricken by selective amnesia when you consider that the whole procedure was started in the first place, among white english speaking people, because they understood the sexual value of this part of the penis, and wanted to destroy that. We understand today that the reasons they had back then for the surgery are not true. So why do we keep cutting?

We keep cutting because it is a cycle of abuse. It is very painful and difficult to accept the reality of having ones genitals mutilated, fortunately people grow up thinking its normal. I would guess this is why people become so angry when anyone suggest that the foreskin is useful tissue and the removal of it is mutilation. They feel as if their world view is being challenged, and this new world view would cause a great deal of pain, so they actively resist it and double down on their beliefs. Further normalizing it by having it done to their kids, since they came out fine the kids should too, right?

I was raised believing that doctors are always there to help me get better, that my parents would never do anything to harm me, and that circumcision is not harmful or destructive in any way. Well it's not true.

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The general legal standard is that if you break the law in the defense of the greater good, and that break ended with less harm then the action they are defending against, then it is an affirmative defense to prosecution.

In layman's terms, if you see someone being shot, and you rush to give aid, then you won't be fined for trespassing on their land.

What she would have to prove is 1) that her child would have been harmed by staying (circumcision is one of those grey area things, honestly, and she will have to fight for it), 2) that removing him from the custody of the father was the only way to prevent that harm, and 3) that removing him from the custody of the father will not cause a greater harm than the circumcision itself.

Part of that overall determination will be how she acted during the incident (and how old the boy is). Was she overly hostile? Was be abusive, either to the boy or to the father?

There are still questions, to be sure, but if you believe that circumcision without medical necessity is mutilation, then it is easier to side with the mother in this case.

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The "loss of sensitivity" research is awash with controversy, misleading graphs, charts, confounding variables, bias, lack of generalizability, and clinical significance... But to say there aren't any shill studies suggesting there is no loss of sensitivity would be disingenuous too. That's the problem with politicized research... A lot of these "studies" fulfill agendas.

I definitely agree with the loss of some sensitivity due to the exposure of the glans - it's no different than why your hands are less sensitive than your feet (e.g. run bath water, feels right with your hands, step in and it's uncomfortably hot on your feet)... But I have yet to find a convincing study that shows this difference in sensitivity has any significance whatsoever in terms of sex. A lot the studies include the sensitivity of the foreskin itself in their analyses... Which is just bad science because its isn't particularly important in terms of providing sexual sensation, and creates massive disparity in reported sensitivity because of course circumcised men do not possess it!

In fact researchers from 2013 study found significant evidence of loss of sensitivity, only to come right out and say that the results were most likely biased, that they had more circumcised men (1000) than uncircumcised men (300) in the study - which did not represent the population - and that the results probably weren't generalizable at all. Another issue is that if you're doing a study on loss of penis sensitivity, chances are you're going to get a lot of participants that actually have loss of penis sensitivity for any possible reason if the study isn't random enough. In the case of the 2013 study, it was performed in Belgium where circumcision is predominantly a medical procedure suggesting prior penile issues in the first place.

Studies that control for these kinds of issues often find the actual differences in sensitivity are so small the effect isn't significant enough to warrant the loss of sensitivity as clinically significant because the reported differences are often found in tenths and hundredths of the data.

[–]jimmywiddle 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes a lot of studies are bullshit, hence why the CDC claim that MGM is a great way of reducing STDs. Which is on par with saying to avoid getting your arm dirty you can either wash it off or get a rusty axe and hack it off.

I base my views not just on studies (although there are a lot of good solid ones out there as well) but on people in my life who have had this done to them and have sorely regretted it. Its these individuals who are now trying foreskin restoration techniques or are encountering some of the other side affects that MGM brings that influence my views on this topic.

Oh and the fact that I believe that mutilating baby boys is just wrong, just as mutilating a baby girls is. This kind of practice has been banned for girls, its about time it was banned for boys too.

If the human body didn't need a foreskin, it wouldn't be born with one it really is as simple as that.

And I don't give a flying toss about what ridiculous religious need exists to want to carry this out, its time they updated it, to not require the mutilation of babies.

[–]stander-j -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

I'm not familiar with the CDC claim in question but circumcision is recognized as a moderately effective intervention for HIV in particular due to the differential between inner foreskin and glans epithelial permeability. Initially studies had only shown that circumcision is correlated with reduced risk of HIV, but there is a growing body of evidence that's beginning to provide concrete evidence and data showing a tangible mechanism for the initial correlations. The reason circumcision reduces transmission is most likely due to the inner foreskin simply being more permeable than other penis surfaces.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3416333/

http://sharedresources.fhcrc.org/publications/papers/inner-foreskin-healthy-men-resembles-inflamed-epithelium-and-has-features-compro

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3091617/

Of course the problem with these studies is the risk of people drawing the wrong conclusions, which would be that circumcision is a substitute for a condom or other safe sex contraceptives. That said, in countries where populations are moderately hostile or hold ambivalent views of western medicine or don't have consistent access to healthcare, and where there are deficits in the use of contraception, on top of massive inequalities in access to education and resources circumcision is an looking like a pretty effective countermeasure to control the spread of HIV - especially given that it's an important cultural practice in most of these areas anyway. As for mutilation of babies... That's a Western practice of which I hold no opinion.

In terms of the medical merits/benefits of circumcision I only consider it valuable in the context medical emergencies and of use to mitigate HIV risk in poorer countries such as those in Africa, where circumcision is a rite of passage that's typically performed at an age where individual do have a choice of participation, and where forced circumcisions are a rarity. In that regard I think it's best to utilize that cultural tradition and help mitigate complications by ensuring tradition cutters are properly trained and that initiates gave access to healthcare before the moderately common risk of infection becomes a serious complication which is what we're trying to do now anyway. The horror stories we often see/hear about circumcision from traditional rites of passage has less to do with the circumcision itself, but rather with the fact that the initiates have no access to healthcare during the rite of passage... Which could easily be mitigated by helping ensure sanitary bandaging, and access to antibiotics and medicines to combat infection.

But of course, as westerners, our cultural perspective in regard to their cultural practises are irrelevant anyway.

Edit: this extensive study showed that the foreskin contains higher concentrations of HIV target cells

Double Edit: It's a little contentious to use the "If we didn't need it we wouldn't have it" argument. If that were the case you'd have to account for Wisdom teeth in the respect.

The side effects of circumcision... Most studies still show little prevalence of complications and side-effects due to circumcision. Whatever you've heard or experienced in your personal life is fine to go by, just pointing out that research is still showing circumcision's side effects are primarily contingent on botches which account for less than 1% in the West. In either case I'd agree Circumcision is mostly useless and that the benefits are too little to justify the procedure. It certainly doesn't really fulfill any particular purpose outside the context of a medical procedure to resolve a condition and outside the realm of the more contentious religious/cultural beliefs, so I don't really see the point of it as a superficial procedure.

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Well, I like how you say that. Why? I also just got this response. "Also, sex is great, I don't need it to feel any better. I already have to work on slowing down often. Pretty happy with my penis." so, well, meh. We don't know for sure now, do we? Like I said, would love some sort of statistic about this, wouldn't you?

Dude...that...did absolutely nothing. For starters, if I say morality isn't factual, and you say a functioning society is one that prohibits a degree of immortal behavior, what ugh...what does that do, exactly? Does that disprove my claim that morality isn't factual? I mean, I could simply repeat myself, saying morality isn't factual. So a "functional" society could easily allow rape, but not murder. Why? Because that society believes one morally acceptable, and the other is not. You saying that, does...well, absolutely nothing. Hell, we believe slavery is immoral, right? Hundreds of years ago? Perfectly fine. No regrets, fuck blacks, morally accepted. That society? Functional. I just...did I miss your point? Am I retarded? Don't answer, I am, I know. Please, for a retarded fuck like me, explain in the simplest, yet most detailed, way to help me understand your point. That is, if I missed it.

[–]tectonic9 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AKnightAlone 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

As one person who doesn't want it, I think of this like the death penalty. At least one, but undoubtedly many more than one, completely innocent person was put to death while wrongly accused. That possibility is inexcusable. All people should have their complete body(and the full sensitive surface area of their genitals) to do with as they please when they please. As a fucking hemophiliac who regrets the procedure for that obvious fucking fact, I also think it's unattractive to be dried out and scarred, I have sensitivity issues that have personally made condom use during sex completely impossible(inb4 STDs,) I also feel my sexual enjoyment and sexual understanding of the natural female clitoris and sensitivity is damaged because I'm desensitized, and I am bothered greatly by the chafing and rubbing in nearly all clothes. I was cut and bled as a hemophiliac only for this to add a great amount to my depression later in life. I will undoubtedly have ED later in life. The procedure is damage to the penis. That's all there is to it.

[–]escort321 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AKnightAlone 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Most people are more than happy with it

Out of ignorance and absurd cultural norms. Did you know 80% of women who have their entire clit removed, the equivalent to the head of the male penis, are entirely happy with the procedure? Did you know over 12 inches of sensory sexual tissue can be removed in an average male circumcision? Maybe you're the Bud Light drinking Murican type who doesn't think much and prefers loud noise over classical music, but I happen to appreciate sensory diversity. Cutting off part of our pleasure organ does nothing but remove that sexual potential for the rest of a person's life. The skin on the outside grows abnormally together with the inner tissue. Skin can be too tight, skin bridges can form, and hair from the base gets pulled up. You ask about chafing elsewhere. You don't even realize how comfortable you would've felt if you weren't in a constant state of dried out sexual exposure.

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You are removing over 10,000 nerve endings from a males genitals. These nerve endings are crucial for a more pleasurable experience during intercourse.
Having it removed deadens the skin of the head. It requires lubrication to create stimulation meanwhile the skin of an uncut is sensitive and the gliding action of the foreskin simulates the action of a female's genital region.
All of the studies indicating that male genital mutilation (or the PC term circumcision), reduces the risk of cancers/STD's have been proven weak and false. Also, would you tell your son that they are "fool proof" and dont need to wear a rubber?
The pharam industry PAYS doctors and hospitals for each time they mutilate a boy. That and they sell the equipment at a markup to the hospitals making even more money. Have you ever seen those female cosmetic commercials indicating that they fix wrinkles? Guess what, you are putting baby penis on your face.
Regarding religion and its practices, can you guarantee that your son is going to follow your religion? What if they choose to follow another? They are irreversibly damaged for life and cannot regrow a part of their body. Also, if God made man in his image, (perfect) why the fuck would you need to "fix" a part of their body? If god is that perfect, WHY do we need to have this in the first place. Also, i wouldnt want to belong to a religion where the price of admission is to be mutilated at birth to get into an exclusive club. Fuck that.
Looks. Lets be honest here, if you are mutilating your boys body so they can be more "attractive" to the opposite sex, then you should have the balls to mutilate your daughter to remove that excess labia, any fat they have on their body, make sure they have breast implants, etc. Tit for tat.
Lastly.. and most profoundly. You are TAKING A FUCKING KNIFE TO YOUR SON AT BIRTH. Not only is birth a traumatic experience for the mother and child, but the first thing out of the womb you do is take KNIFE to his genitals? Arent you supposed to be protecting your child from harm? More and more studies show that this trauma at birth makes systemic changes to the boys pain/pleasure center of his brain.

More articles for you:

Link 7 to a youtuber who gives a blunt explanation as to WHY its barbaric practice

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10-MAR-2015 - WRIT OF BODILY ATTACHMENT ISSUED 3/10/15 FOR HEATHER HIRONIMUS. WBAT-15-000144 ORDER GRANTING FATHER'S EMERGENCY MOTION FOR CONTEMPT AND OTHER RELIEF ON ORDERS OF MAY 9, 2014 & DECEMBER 23, 2014 FILED FEBRUARY 20,2015 (D.E. 1471; AND FATHER'S VERIFIED SECOND EMERGENCY MOTION FOR CONTEMPT AND INJUNCTIVE RELIEF ON ORDERS OF MAY 9, 2014 & DECEMBER 23. 2014 FILED ON FEBRUARY 24,2015 (D.E. 150); AND FATHER'S THIRD EMERGENCY MOTION FOR CONTEMPT AND OTHER RELIEK FILED MARCH 4,2015 (D.E. 158) DTD MARCH 10 2015 JD JEFFREY DANA GILLEN

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]nethersquid 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]walkonthebeach[S] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

All circumcision does is prevent infection.

Sure! — LOL:

1: Women prefer intact penises.

Source: http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/408/60750.html

http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/ohara/

2: Masturbation feels better.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/

3: Circumcision significantly reduces sensitivity.

Source: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,285532,00.html

http://www.livescience.com/1624-study-circumcision-removes-sensitive-parts.html

4: Despite the reduced sensitivity, there is no change to lasting longer during sex.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9 A6D724B4E3606446784E.d03t01

5: Cut men have a more difficult time fapping.

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1743-6109.2005.00070.x/abstract;jsessionid=E233A9E106A9

Which was the reason it was promoted in the USA in the first place.

http://english.pravda.ru/science/health/27-03-2006/77873-circumcision-0/

6: Circumcision increases risk of erectile dysfunctions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14979200&dopt= Abstract|

7: If too much skin is removed in circumcision, it can make the penis smaller since the dong needs some skin to expand during an erection:

http://www.altermd.com/Penis%20and%20Scrotal%20Surgery/buried_penis.htm

http://www.drgreene.com/azguide/inconspicuous-penis

8: Circumcision does not lower the risk of AIDS.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22096758/

9: Circumcision is more hygienic. Who the fuck doesn't clean their dick? It's a three second job you do when you shower so this is not a valid argument. Women produce 10 times as much smegma as men - so it's OK to amputate an infant girls' labia lips so she doesn't have to wash them??

10: Circumcised foreskin sold to cosmetic manufacturers for profit:

http://voices.yahoo.com/human-foreskins-big-business-cosmetics-201840.html

Erectile dysfunction 4.5 times more likely to occur if you're circumcised

http://www.thewholenetwork.org/14/post/2011/08/does-circumcision-cause-erectile-dysfunction.html etc

Stanford's school of medicine list of circumcision complications (including infection, haemorraging, skin-bridging, phimosis, amputation and death):

http://newborns.stanford.edu/CircComplications.html

Cut infants get long-term changes in pain response from the trauma of being circumcised

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

Circumcision decreases penile sensitivity

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

Circumcision associated with sexual difficulties

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

Circumcision linked to alexithymia

http://www.mensstudies.com/content/2772r13175400432/?p=a7068101fbdd48819f10dd04dc1e19fb&pi=4

The exaggeration of the benefits of circumcision in regards to HIV/AIDS transmission

http://jme.bmj.com/content/36/12/798.abstract

Circumcision/HIV claims are based on insufficient evidence

http://www.4eric.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/MC.pdf

There is no case for the widespread implementation of circumcision as a preventative measure to stop transmission of AIDS/HIV

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1753-6405.2011.00761.x/full

Circumcision decreases sexual pleasure

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

Circumcision decreases efficiency of nerve response in the glans of the penis

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

Circumcision policy is influenced by psychosocial factors rather than alleged health benefits

http://www.circumcision.org/policy.htm

Circumcision linked to pain, trauma, and psychosexual sequelae

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/boyle6/

Circumcision results in significant loss of erogenous tissue

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8800902

Circumcision has negligible benefit http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091693

Neonatal circumcision linked to pain and trauma http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9057731

Circumcision may lead to need for increased care and medical attention in the first 3 years of life http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9393302

Circumcision linked to psychological trauma http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/goldman1/

Circumcision may lead to abnormal brain development and subsequent deviations in behavior http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10657682

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23374102?dopt=Abstract

CONCLUSIONS: This study confirms the importance of the foreskin for penile sensitivity, overall sexual satisfaction, and penile functioning. Furthermore, this study shows that a higher percentage of circumcised men experience discomfort or pain and unusual sensations as compared with the uncircumcised population.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21672947

CONCLUSIONS:Circumcision was associated with frequent orgasm difficulties in Danish men and with a range of frequent sexual difficulties in women, notably orgasm difficulties, dyspareunia and a sense of incomplete sexual needs fulfilment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17155977

CONCLUSION: There was a decrease in masturbatory pleasure and sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17378847

CONCLUSIONS:The glans of the circumcised penis is less sensitive to fine touch than the glans of the uncircumcised penis. The transitional region from the external to the internal prepuce is the most sensitive region of the uncircumcised penis and more sensitive than the most sensitive region of the circumcised penis. Circumcision ablates the most sensitive parts of the penis.

[–]nethersquid 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Hygiene isn't an issue for me and I don't have any problems with sensitivity during sex.

I've experienced exactly no setbacks with having it circumcised. If anything, not having it like that would affect me negatively because I don't care for the appearance of uncircumcised penises and neither have the women who have been involved with my penis.

I get that some people have issues with the topic, but I really just see things from the perspective because it doesn't make sense to me. Not liking how your penis looks, whether cut or not, is something I could understand. People want to look good and if they feel their genitals liked strange, then I see where problems could arise. Anything beyond that seems kinda ridiculous.

I've mentioned being circumcised and unfazed by it on here before and I was downvoted and had several replies telling me I should feel wronged and one person linked me a blog where someone could learn how to feel uncircumcised or something kinda out there (I didn't really check it out further once I understood what it was about). I just don't get it is all. It seems like a tiny thing to get behind compared to other, more pressing issues.

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[–]ManGoingHisOwnWay 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Probably, I'm personally twisted on this though.

Parents should under no circumstances (aside from severe medical necessity) force circumcision on their boys. That's a horrible body mutilation if you don't appreciate it later in life and there's is nothing you can do.
I personally think cut penises look more aesthetic than penises with a long forskin just as I think vaginas with small inner labia looks much more pleasing than meaty cuntflaps. This is just my opinion.
A person should decide for himself when he is grown up and can rationally weigh up the consequences of undergoing such a procedure. My guess is that the vast majortiy of men would decide against such an operation and only a small minority of unsatisfied men would seek cosmetic surgery.

Genital mutilation of children should be completely prohibited.

P.S: Most people are extremely stupid and their opinions are a result of current flukes and trends in the media. If some socialite cunt in a vapid talk show blabbers about how cut dicks are best you'll have a significant amount of braindead sluts that will copy this opinion without a second thought.

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[–]Teraperf 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Okay, hear me out here.

While the penis is outside of the body, it is still an internal organ. The foreskin is designed to protect and sheathe an organ that has 10's of thousands of nerve endings compacted into it. It isn't an organ that was designed to be exposed, much less in constant contact with clothing like boxers or briefs. Many circumcised men has lessened sensation in their penis because of this over-exposure. I'm under the impression it's typical for the main pleasurable area to be the frenulum, or little nub on the underside of your boy, because this is the part that is most protected from the external irritations. This of course was already dealt with, by evolution, by giving men foreskins.

Not to mention, there are 10,000-20,000 nerve endings compacted in the foreskin that you're just cutting off.

[–]theskepticalidealist 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]im_not_a_gay_fish -9 points-8 points-7 points 11 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

Me neither. Its one of the MRM's "stances" that i just can't get behind. I am circumcised. My dad is as is my brother and my sons. Most of my friends are as well. None of us mind, in fact most of us prefer it. (as do our wives)

But, of course, there are many who are against it. Most of those are not circumcised to begin with. Yet, they tell us how we are mutilated and had our rights taken away and how we are victims that just aren't smart enough to realize how wronged we were by our shitlord parents.

Kind of reminds me of this other movement that tries to victimize people who don't feel like victims.....

Anyway, its good that there are people online that are smarter and morally superior than we are to tell us how to think and feel. Without them, I would have gone through life with a penis that is fully functional and more streamlined without knowing how bad my parents fucked me up by not giving me a choice.

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[–]chocolatencheez -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

vaccines are a huge success for medicine,

Never said the weren't. I said they are not medically necessary. Braces are a huge success as well. But not medically necessary.

There was a time when i was about to hop onto the anti circ train. Then I noticed something that I notice with all of the "controversial" topics. Whether it be declawing your cat, circumcising your kid, having an abortion or whatever.

All the anecdotes and "anti" research and "pro" research and articles all come from either "pro" or "anti" sites.

Go to a "pro" or "anti" anything site and you'll see links like "10 reason why "x" should be outlawed" or "6 ways that "x" is beneficial". Youll see anecdotes along the lines of "before I did x this was way worse" or "after x my life changed for the better".

So, I avoid those sites. I go the neutral ones. HINT: These sites usually don't have "x" in the URL.

For circs, simply look up circumcision on a medical website. I used mayo clinic and webmd.

They say the same thing. Studies have shown some medical benefits, sometimes they are medically necessary, usually they are cosmetic and due to cultural beliefs or tradition, there are some risks as there are with any procedure, it is not generally thought to increase or decrease sexual pleasure. Boom. Done. No bias.

Some individual doctors will disagree. Some people will disagree. Doctors will write articles on why they wont do them. But that doesn't change the fact that generally speaking, the medical world believes that the benefits outweigh the risks in most cases and that circ can be done without detriment to the patient's life.

Its simply a "some people do it some people don't" type situation.

[–]juligen 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

But that doesn't change the fact that generally speaking, the medical world believes that the benefits outweigh the risks in most cases and that circ can be done without detriment to the patient's life.

only, the medical world DOESNT believe that. USA is the only developed country that supports circumcision for newborn babies. All the other developed countries are against. In fact the medical world is against circumcision on infants. Canada, Germany, Japan, Australia, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and the rest of the world. Researchers in Denmark found that 5% of circumcised babies will experienced significant complications. There is a reason this crap is not supported for other countries.

BTW, I hardly visit anti circ sites, but you can check those places here:

THE BRITISH MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

"It is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks. […] Parental preference alone is not sufficient justification for performing a surgical procedure on a child. […] The BMA considers that the evidence concerning health benefit from non-therapeutic circumcision is insufficient for this alone to be a justification for doing it."

THE AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND MEDICAL COLLEGE OF PHYSICIANS

""After reviewing the currently available evidence, the RACP believes that the frequency of diseases modifiable by circumcision, the level of protection offered by circumcision and the complication rates of circumcision do not warrant routine infant circumcision in Australia and New Zealand."

THE CANADIAN PEDIATRIC ASSOCIATION

"The Canadian Pediatric Society (CPS) states that “Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed” The overall evidence of the benefits and costs of circumcision is so evenly balanced that it does not support recommending circumcision as a routine procedure for newborns.

THE ROYAL DUTCH MEDICAL ASSOCIATION

""The official viewpoint of KNMG and other related medical/scientific organisations is that non-therapeutic circumcision of male minors is a violation of children’s rights to autonomy and physical integrity. Contrary to popular belief, circumcision can cause complications – bleeding, infection, urethral stricture and panic attacks are particularly common. KNMG is therefore urging a strong policy of deterrence. KNMG is calling upon doctors to actively and insistently inform parents who are considering the procedure of the absence of medical benefits and the danger of complications.""

Do you know what ALL those countries have in common besides being against circumcision? They ALL have better health rates than USA, those countries have less infant mortality, less STDs and less HIV infections, so I will follow their lead.

[–]chocolatencheez -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Well, again...

The link you provided was an opinion piece from an MRA website. Clearly biased.

Other than the KNMG (and the United Nations, but on this sub we bash the UN so much that I doubt any of us would use them as a compass), the others just say that the benefits are either equal to the risks or only slight greater than the risks so as to not recommend routine circumcision.

They don't say that it is abusive (other than the dutch and the UN). They don't say it does more harm than good.

As for the whole STD, infant mortality HIV thing...something something correlation causation.

These opinions of the medical associations say nothing new here. There are risks (we knew that), there are some benefits (we knew that too). The risks don't outweigh the benefits so much that its recommended as a routine procedure for everyone. Which means, that they don't recommend that every baby is popped out and taken to the operating room as routine.

What they do all say is what i had said before. There are risks. There are benefits. They are close to equal. It should be left up to the parents. Some choose Yes. Some choose No.

[–]Arby01 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Jazzeki 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Most of my friends are as well. None of us mind, in fact most of us prefer it.

so why must that mean you get to force it on others?

nobody is trying to prevent you from doing it to yourself.

i don't mind bdsm in fact i prefer it: do i get to chain you up and whip you?

Yet, they tell us how we are mutilated and had our rights taken away and how we are victims that just aren't smart enough to realize how wronged we were by our shitlord parents.

you're not a victim. the children you want to justify conteniueing doing this to are. but this is all about you and your penis isn't it?

Without them, I would have gone through life with a penis that is fully functional and more streamlined without knowing how bad my parents fucked me up by not giving me a choice.

thank god i know you'll support me in giving my child a tatto. you know: because i don't mind. and it's not like a child dersve a choice either.

[–]im_not_a_gay_fish -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

so why must that mean you get to force it on others?

When you say "others" who are you talking about? My kids?

Because as parents you make decisions for your kids based on what YOU think is the best course of action. Some of those things are permanent. Some are less so

For instance, I vaccinated them as well. There are a lot of people out there who are against it for many reasons. I think that those reasons are unfounded and rare. There ARE cases of children who die or are hospitalized because of a bad reaction to a vaccine. But we did it anyways.

My question to you is this: where do YOU draw the line? Does the line start and stop with YOUR personal beliefs? Or are you at least consistent?

Would you support a rule that only adults can get vaccines unless medically necessary? It is a medical procedure that the child has no say in whatsoever.

How about other cosmetic surgeries with no "health benefits"? Like, say, removing a skin blemish (son's classmate had this done)? Braces? Separating slightly webbed toes?

All of those are cosmetic procedures with only fringe health benefits (if any). None of them are strictly necessary. Oh, wait, let me guess..."Those are different", right?

Are you consistent and against ANY MEDICALLY UNNECESSARY procedures until adulthood?

Or just Circumcision in particular?

Keep in mind that I also have Google and can read studies and look at pictures. Yes, I know about that kid that died or got herpes or whatever. Yes, Ive seen the pictures of botched circs. Yes, Ive read articles where some dude is all mad because he got a circ and wished his parents didn't do it, whatever. Ive been on this sub for 2 years now and have seen the weekly circle jerk of circ articles (say that 10 times fast amiright).

All I am currently interested in is if circumcision is a special case or if you're against all medical procedures that are not strictly medically necessary until the patient is a legal adult. (This would include vaccines, braces, birthmark/mole removal, fixing minor anomalies such as webbed toes, etc.)

i don't mind bdsm in fact i prefer it: do i get to chain you up and whip you?

thank god i know you'll support me in giving my child a tatto. you know: because i don't mind. and it's not like a child dersve a choice either.

...sigh

[–]PassifloraCaerulea 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Arby01 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Arby01 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

All I am currently interested in is if circumcision is a special case or if you're against all medical procedures that are not strictly medically necessary until the patient is a legal adult. (This would include vaccines, braces, birthmark/mole removal, fixing minor anomalies such as webbed toes, etc.)

Ok. This has a grain of truth to it. However, there is a line that can be drawn around the decision of "strictly medically necessary".

Circumcision is a cosmetic surgery. So, let's compare it to other cosmetic procedures - that rules out "cleft palate, webbed toes, etc" since those have effects beyond cosmetic. It also removes vaccines since the argument that vaccines are medically unnecessary is absurd.

So, we are talking about Braces, Birthmark/mole removal, and similar items.

First off - I had a massive congenital birthmark/mole combination on my back. A doctor looking at it told me, as an adult, that they would have removed that early on in my life now as that form of birthmark/mole issue is a high percentage chance of becoming carcinoma.

SO - they don't actually do this unless there is a medical reason for this by default.

Braces - braces are a medical intervention, but they are not surgery, nor are they invasive. Not really in the same category. How about kids with an extra tooth kernel - this is surgery - but again, it's a medical issue as the extra tooth will cause mouth pain, tooth displacement and functional problems with chewining and eating -

Basically, the medical establishment, in general, doesn't do anything like what you are saying, in any case other than circumcision. Circumcision is already a special case, it isn't because people here are trying to make it one. It is the only cosmetic surgery that is done routinely without regard for it's necessity.

So really, what you are arguing is

"My kid has a cosmetic issue, I want to be able to tell a doctor to deal with it and nobody else has a right to tell me not to".

Well, in some cases you are right - some cosmetic issues are serious enough to cause social problems and mental distress and should be dealt with and as a parent you are right to request it.

However, a doctor should never be required to do that procedure if they deem it unnecessary. That is, if after review, and perhaps consultation with other doctors (ie. a psychiatrist) they deem that the requested cosmetic surgery will not provide a health benefit, mental or otherwise, then they should refuse the procedure.

The doctor's commitment is to the patient, not the parent.

[–]Jazzeki 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Would you support a rule that only adults can get vaccines unless medically necessary? It is a medical procedure that the child has no say in whatsoever.

you really don't get how any of this works do you?

all children who can be vaccinated it is medically nececary for. though i'm not suprised to see pro-circumcion on the anti-vax side honestly.

All I am currently interested in is if circumcision is a special case or if you're against all medical procedures that are not strictly medically necessary until the patient is a legal adult. (This would include vaccines, braces, birthmark/mole removal, fixing minor anomalies such as webbed toes, etc.)

yes i'm against all proceduers not medically nevecary before they are adults.

that doesn't include braces or vaccines though since you need them when you need them not just "at some point". the fact that you think that just shows how little you really understand.

seriously the fact that you think braces are a cosmetic surgery is like saying making sure a broken arm is healing correctly is merely cosmetic.

...sigh

you said something about how you want me to stay consistent... thank god you only have to sigh when you're asked the same to keep the your high horse huh?

but let's keep to "unnecceray cosmetic medical procedure" that you do in fact support.

like my daugthers doubble masectomy. don't worry major helth ebenfit: going to keep breast cancer in check if she has no breasts at all.

how about tattos? that's a cosmetic medical procedure tachnically so ofcourse you support my right to tatto my child right?

[–]nybo 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Arby01 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

All you did was change the gender,

and by doing so, pointed out that it's a crime that is on par with vivisection and torture according to the western world, regardless of the actual degree of the procedure.

But seriously. Banning circumcision? No. Banning circumcision for children? Yes.

Ack. Dammit, here you actually have a point, you should have led with that.

Banning circumcision forced on underage youth is what people are asking for.

Circumcision because you want to, after 18 years old? Nobody here is going to stop you or say you shouldn't have the choice. Jewish, over 18, want to modify your body to comply with your choice of faith? I think you should have this right. (Technically I think over 18 women should be able to make the same choice if they want but good luck finding a Dr. to do it).

Circumcision on any age individual as dictated (dick-tated?) by medical necessity? Absolutely.

Circumcision as a forced procedure on a healthy child - shouldn't be legal.

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Meh, so I did miss the point. Wouldn't be the first time, least this time someone (You, obviously) explained the point afterwards. Seriously, most people don't.

I'll tell you how I feel. Though I think circumcision is wrong, and can very much see why people think it's barbaric as hell, I'm not sure if we're really...well, the majority. As far as I know, (And I'd gladly take a link or something to help educate me.) not a whole lot of people care if they're circumcised. Now, being circumcised doesn't do a whole lot good for you, making it semi-useless in the first place. But if the majority of people don't care, don't think of their parents cutting off parts of their body as bad...is it okay to ban it? Keyword: "If". Like I said, not a whole lot educated on how people feel about it. Seems like we're in the minority, though.

[–]Arby01 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But if the majority of people don't care, don't think of their parents cutting off parts of their body as bad...is it okay to ban it?

Well, societally, we ban a ton of stuff that the majority don't give a shit about, so I am not sure that is a good argument.

However, that the majority of the people choose not to care about a procedure that was likely done earlier than they can remember, that they never had any choice over and can do nothing about - I actually think that is mentally healthy. That doesn't make the procedure acceptable.

I think the procedure is pretty clearly morally wrong when done to an underage child for no reason other than religion or aesthetics.

Considering that the western world loses their shit when somebody suggests a ritual pin pricking of female genitalia - it's kinda, seriously, fucked up that this is treated as "whatever".

Yeah, you are correct, most people don't give a shit. As I stated above though, nobody wants to "ban" it. The preferred solution would be to make it an elective procedure that could be done as an adult.

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