A bit of a lighthearted post for a change

[+]batchynator points 9 years ago* [recovered] (27 children) | Copy Link

I'm far more disgusted with rape than I am with periods, like it isn't even close, do they think this is how people really think?

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I wouldn't put my tongue on either.

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hang on lemme break this down so i can understand it better.

u/Blood_and_Brass, a member of the sub i presume, was "advocating stoning women who are raped" (not what he was doing but sit tight i'll get to that in a moment)

u/Blood_and_Brass' comment got downvoted by the other members of this sub, indicating that they disagree with the notion that women who are raped should be stoned to death

you call the members of this sub "sad, disgusting little boys"

sure sounds like you're saying anyone who disagrees with the notion that "women who are raped should be stoned to death" is a disgusting little boy. so you advocate that women should be stoned to death. ok now i understand.

now, what u/Blood_and_Brass was actually doing was saying "this is probably why they had these laws, and logically it makes sense." nowhere at all in his comment was he advocating for these punishments. but you don't care about that, you're just being adversarial for the sake of being adversarial.

[–]Blood_and_Brass 45 points46 points47 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

It's being downvoted because he's advocating stoning women who are raped.

I'm not advocating anything, you psychopath. I'm explaining the reasoning of the laws. They didn't stone people for being raped, they stoned them committing adultery -- WHICH I DO NOT APPROVE OF* -- and the screaming rules are how they got around the problem that women who got caught committing adultery would just cry rape. None of that explanation is meant to suggest that I approve of these rules or think they are sensible. They have an internal logic that I can understand, but being able to understand the thinking of someone else doesn't mean you agree with or are endorsing their viewpoint, you braindead cretin.

* ^{fucking christ, I can't believe I actually have to say that thanks to idiots like you}

EDIT: Also, I didn't even realize this was Men's Rights. I'm here from r/all, and have never posted here before. I'm not a Men's Rights advocate, don't really give a shit about the men's rights movement, and have basically nothing to do with this forum or its members, so your attempt to condemn this sub's members by completely distorting my comment is seriously fucking pathetic, and really demonstrates what a biased, judgmental shit you are.

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A woman back then who had any interest in protecting her reputation wouldn't get drunk in the presence of a strange man, and it wouldn't have been possible to get her drunk without her consent.

Citation needed.

Good booze was possible back then. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/science-news/3303248/Bronze-Age-brew-proves-a-vintage-ale.html

and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece_and_wine

The Greeks believed that only barbarians drank unmixed or undiluted wine and that the Spartan king Cleomenes I was once driven insane after drinking wine this way.[2] They also believed that undiluted wine could even kill the drinker: the Gallic chieftain Brennus was recorded as having committed suicide by drinking wine full-strength.[14] Greeks asserted that the dilution of wine with water was a mark of civilized behavior, whose contrast was embodied in the myth of the battle of Lapiths with the Centaurs, inflamed to rape and mayhem because of wine drunk undiluted with water.

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[–]CLICK_CLACK_CLICK 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago* (23 children) | Copy Link

What religion says it's ok to stone other than Islam?

~~Christianity~~ The Bible does! To be fair, this is more about parents rounding up their disobedient children, taking them to the edge of the city in order to burry the children about neck deep, so that the townsfolk could gather around and bash the child's head in with rocks. Read 21.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

edit: vaguely necessary distinction made.

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The Book of Mormon actually came from some golden plates a white Native American Angel told Joseph Smith about that were buried in his back yard which he dug up and then read out of a hat and when bullshit was called he read from another golden plate that was slightly different...

Actually, when you think about it, that's much worse than just coming from a hat.

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Hi, I'm currently a seminary student and thought I could explain this a bit better.

The old testament law, or Torah, is comprised of three parts: ceremonial, civil, and moral. The ceremonial and civil portions of the law were only binding on the actual nation of Israel before the covenant of grace that is ushered in by Jesus. This is because under the Mosaic covenant, the favor of God would only be granted on the condition that the entire law was kept. However, the covenant of grace, as prophesied in Jeremiah, unconditionally promises salvation and God's presence to whoever believes the gospel.

The ceremonial and civil laws were made with the intent of bridging the gap between God and Israel. When Jesus says he didn't come to destroy the law, that's true. But you left out the second part; he came to fulfill it, such that all Christians are dead to the law, technically, including the moral portion.

The reason we still love God and our neighbor is because we are compelled to do so by the Holy Spirit that resides in us, not so that we maintain right standing with God. The new testament makes it clear (1 John) that whoever is a Christian must love God, their neighbor, and righteousness, otherwise their faith is dead. So because we are already in communion with God by way of the Holy Spirit, and we've been forever justified by Christ, there is no reason to keep the ceremonial law anymore, as its function (uniting man and God) is totally complete. Likewise, the civil law is only binding on historic Israel for the same reason.

So now that the law is fulfilled, we keep the moral law as evidence of its fulfillment, rather than to maintain our right standing.

I hope that was helpful.

[–]Goo-Goo-GJoob 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]CaptLeibniz 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah, yes, I'm familiar with that passage.

Here is the entire paragraph of that scripture:

¹⁷ Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ¹⁸ For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. ¹⁹ Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. ²⁰ For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

And he is exactly right. Those who set aside any of the law will be called the least. I suppose that would indicate the 'bottom' of some sort of hierarchy, but that's not what I want to talk about.

The point of saying that not a jot or tittle of the law will be relaxed is to stress that all people, for all time, are required to bare the full wait of the law when he stands before God on judgement day. You'll notice, that in verse 17, Christ states that he came to fulfill the law. And that is what he did; he fulfilled the law, as our substitute. As such, it is impossible to set aside the law, as its requirements were fulfilled when Christ was crucified.

Don't take that to mean that we should indulge in antinomianism (i.e., sin because we cannot lose salvation). 1 John and Hebrews go to great lengths to say that someone with faith but not works is not actually saved; their faith is dead.

So how do we balance the two?

Righteousness is not how we maintain our right-standing with God; that has already been obtained and paid for by Jesus. Righteousness is merely the natural outworking of a life that is being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

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I'm saying that Islam does not criminal[ize it], except that menstruation is seen as inherently bad.

vs

My point is that no religion treats it as inherently bad, at least not more than any other bodily excretion.

You're saying the exact opposite thing one after the other.

Does Islam "see menstruation as inherently bad"? Islam is a religion. So it would therefore be wrong to say "no religion treats it as inherently bad".

Perhaps you meant no other religion treats it as inherently bad. That Islam has some special hatred for menses.

Let's look at the facts, shall we?

Old Testament/Talmud:

If you're on your period or it's been less than a week since your period ended, you're unclean.
Anything you touch, sit on, lie on becomes unclean.
Anyone who touches, sits, or lies on anything you've come into contact with has to (1) wash all their clothes (2) take a full bath and (3) still be unclean until evening.
Once seven days have passed, you have to take two turtles or pigeons and take them to the priest to sacrifice.
Just to be clear: this is done to atone for your uncleanliness.
(Talmud only) If your husband has sex with you on your period, they are to be put to death. You get flogged too.

Islam:

You can't read the Quran out loud, unless you're a teacher, when you're on your period.
You can't participate in ritual prayers (or even go into a mosque), and you're not allowed to fast.
Your husband can't divorce you while you're on your period.
You have to take a bath when your period is over.
No penis-in-vagina sex. If your husband has penis-in-vagina sex with you, he has to pay a fine. Other sexy times ok.

Now. If we are going to say that "no religion treats menstruation as inherently bad", I think that's wrong. I think both religions treat it as inherently bad.

But is Islam worth singling out? No.

[–]probably_a_squid 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]AnnaBortion points 9 years ago [recovered] (48 children) | Copy Link

Nobody alive today is living in the Old Testament. That was thousands of years ago dude. Christians are a problem sometimes, but the worst we get is the Westborough Baptist Church, and even they aren't going around killing women and children every three days like the Mudslimes. Nice false equivalency dude.

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You're a moron.

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Jesus did away with the "old law".

If Christians did actually understand/follow what Jesus (fictional or not) tried to teach, then the world would have a lot fewer problems with them.

Also Jesus did not "away with the old law". He sad a few things like "how about being nice to each other for a change". And god promised to not be such an irrational and sadistic cunt that tortures his own people anymore.

But they still hate on gays, because Jesus did not give any meaningful update on the subject, so they just assume the old testament is still up-to-date and gays must be reeducated, lobotomized or killed because they are abominations.

They still believe in creationism with all the misanthropic, misogynistic, reckless (we own the world, we can destroy it if we want) attitude that comes with that. Fuck climate change, because god wouldn't have made a faulty planet like that. Also he made all that oil and coal for us to exploit, so lets have at it. And if human life on earth would end, just fuck that as well, because we can go to heaven (This is an argument evangelical Christians actually make).

They still go on holy wars (for example the Iraq war as to the reasoning of George W. Bush) against the infidels which of course deserve death for believing in the wrong set of random fantasies.

Making a old-testament/new-testament distinction regarding (radical) Christians is splitting hairs.

[+]JWilkesBooth -8 points-7 points-6 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Rrektt points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Christians are a problem sometimes

I mean Christianity paved a more bloody path through history than any other.

Crusades, witch hunts, the spanish inquisition.

So Christianity isn't really a big problem anymore as it's been pacified. But I can assure you, it was much, much worse than islam is now.

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Eh, in the bible rape wasn't seen as a good thing, but it wasn't seen as a necessarily bad thing either as long as the man paid the woman's father and married her.

[–]ruser8567 20 points21 points22 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[+]KStreetFighter2 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

Might be different with people of different tribes because they often had different gods. The law as it was at the time is pretty clear :

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 “If a man meets a virgin who is not betrothed, and seizes her and lies with her, and they are found, then the man who lay with her shall give to the father of the young woman fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her. He may not divorce her all his days."

[–]Wasuremaru 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]ruser8567 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

The legal proscription for it is of course, very clear. However, it stands also that rape was a crime justifying some pretty harsh violence in reprisal, even if it was to a non-Jewish outside tribe. The wiping out of an entire tribe is basically the most serious punishment one could proscribe. I'd say more than anything the law is there because everyone's first response was, and still is, to get the rope out and find a tree, and that's going to start a lot more bloodshed in tribal societies. I would say, definitely, that rape was a bad thing in the old testament, even if a surface reading of the law seems to favor the rapist.

Edit: Here's the story, Genesis 34, the murder:

25 Three days later, when the men were still sore from their circumcision, two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi, the brothers of Dinah, took their swords, went into the city without arousing suspicion, and killed all the men, 26 including Hamor and his son Shechem. Then they took Dinah from Shechem's house and left. 27 After the slaughter Jacob's other sons looted the town to take revenge for their sister's disgrace. 28 They took the flocks, the cattle, the donkeys, and everything else in the city and in the fields. 29 They took everything of value, captured all the women and children, and carried off everything in the houses.

30 Jacob said to Simeon and Levi, “You have gotten me into trouble; now the Canaanites, the Perizzites, and everybody else in the land will hate me. I do not have many men; if they all band together against me and attack me, our whole family will be destroyed.”

31 But they answered, “We cannot let our sister be treated like a common whore.”

[–]LoicyT 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]TheJazzProphet 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

But what is valuable about a woman who hasn't been raped? Something about the "woman as property, man purchasing woman from her father" narrative seems lacking, or like it's not painting the full picture. If a woman's value is her sexuality, why would a man buy her from her father? Does a father need compensation for losing access to his daughter's sexuality? It's not as if he's personally losing any value that needs to be made up for. And if it were a matter of the father being concerned about the husband's ability to provide for his wife, I would think a demonstration of his means would be all that would be strictly necessary.

The way I see it, it makes more sense that an unmarried woman would provide some value, probably housework and other various kinds of work to her parents' household, which her prospective husband would "buy" with the dowry to compensate for the lost labor.

I think that's partly what you were suggesting, but in that scenario, the woman's value to her husband is both her sexuality and her ability to work, which means a raped woman isn't useless or worthless. I think the idea of a dowry and a woman's value being diminished after her being raped are two separate issues.

I think the issue surrounding rape has more to do with the traditional function of marriage, which is essentially to identify the father of a woman's child and to hold him accountable for providing for that child. When a woman is raped, it shakes the foundations of the marriage relationship, because the father has no way of knowing (prior to DNA testing) if he's being forced to provide for a child that won't bear his genes into future generations.

[–]MisterGrieves 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

The father didn't have access to his daughter's sexuality if you are suggesting it like that. With the raping of the virgin girl her father isn't the one who decides. The rapist must pay the father and marry her never being allowed to divorce her providing for her all of his life. The reason for it is because she is damaged goods and would not be able to be married off. Women had to be virgins upon marriage. The rules were very strict. I looked up in other rape situation and If the woman was married then either just the rapist or both would be stoned to death depending on if the woman cried out. In regard to the dowry, it was a payment to the father for looking a worker. In a tribal society the children had many important jobs that are losing the worker. So the dowry is given to the father to compensate for that loss. If it had to do with concern for the daughters welfare then the bride would be getting a dowry from her father instead.

[–]CaptLeibniz 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Have you read the whole story of what happens with Israel's encounter with the Midianites? Maybe it would help to explain what exactly happened here.

The Midianites are the descendants of Midian (Gen 25:2), the son of Abraham and his wife after Sarah died, Keturah. For quite some time, the Midianites were good people. Jethro, Moses' father-in-law, was a Midianites priest (Ex 2:16; 18).

After a while, relations between Israel and the Midianites started to deteriorate. This culminates in the Midianite and Moabite alliance, which conspires against Israel, hiring a sorcerer, Balaam, to curse Israel (Num 22)^1. After that, and a few other incidents (including idolatry and sexual sin with Midianite women), God commanded Moses to wage war on Midian. Numbers 25:17-18:

¹⁷ “Harass the Midianites and strike them down, ¹⁸ for they have harassed you with their wiles, with which they beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of the chief of Midian, their sister, who was killed on the day of the plague on account of Peor.”

So, to start, the attack on the Midianites wasn't exactly unprovoked from an Israeli perspective. But that is not the important thing.

From whence do we derive ethics; that is, how we should live? On a Christian paradigm, the answer is from God's commands, which are the outworking of His omnibenevolence and will. As such, on Christianity, God cannot will for something evil. However, we are often tempted to question God's motivations. The Old and New Testaments are replete with this phenomenon, but the most well known example is in the book of Job. Job is a good man who keeps the law. However, God allows Satan to wreak havoc on his livelihood, but doesn't allow him to kill him. Job is at a loss and has no clue why he'd be met with such misfortune despite his love for God and His law. At some point, he gets angry at God and asks him why God would allow that to happen to him. God's response is three chapters long (Job 38-41 if you want to read it).

Here is Job's response:

¹ Then Job replied to the Lord: ² “I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted. ³ You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. ⁴ “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ ⁵ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. ⁶ Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.”

Concerning matters of God's actions and commands in the Old Testament, I suggest we posture ourselves as Job does in his response. Frankly, the ways of God are a mystery. We also don't know the whole story of what happened between the Midianites and Israel. Perhaps there are other atrocities which God sought for them to atone for, but were not mentioned in the scriptures. Perhaps God asks us to trust Him and in His motivations. I am certainly of that opinion.

^1. This backfired, but that is not important. Read chapter 22 if you want to know more about that.

[–]badbrotha 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

Let's not bring another book into it and focus on the sole incident, for Job is a whole nother story with a whole bunch of other moral faults that I find with the omnipotent lord.

Back to Moses.

So I'm going to work off of your comments, of course neither of us are going to convince each other from our theological opinions, and to keep from bringing in too many possible influences, I'm going to focus on what you quoted from numbers.

You say yourself, the "Midianites were good people."
One of the reasons are, "a sorcerer was called to 'curse' Israel." The only way one could 'curse' is from a false god, correct? Something that should be irrational to true believers of the one God right? How was a plague even possible unless the all powerful God allowed it to happen to convince his people to murder the non-believers?

And I never take the "God is mysterious" reason, because it seems like such an easy cop out. Either way, murdering the entire village, children and all, seems like the logical solution from our all powerful leader right? It doesn't make sense.

Again, I'm working from the perspective that if these stories are, in some way, true, but god doesn't exist, and the more logical explanation in this story is Moses was on a power trip and needed some people convincing his followers away murdered and raped.

Your reasons for the murder of a village are a curse, idolatry, and "sexual sin." Better kill em all right, rational God?

[–]CaptLeibniz 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

You say yourself, the "Midianites were good people."

When I say that, I should clarify. By that I mean they were, apparently, in keeping with ancient Israelite practices for quite some time.

The only way one could 'curse' is from a false god, correct? Something that should be irrational to true believers of the one God right?

Yup, There is only one God, correct. First thing to note; read the story about the curse. See what happens, then come back to me. You'll know what I'm talking about after you read it; the 'curse' doesn't exactly pan out as expected. This is relevant to the discussion at hand.

How was a plague even possible unless the all powerful God allowed it to happen to convince his people to murder the non-believers?

And I never take the "God is mysterious" reason, because it seems like such an easy cop out. Either way, murdering the entire village, children and all, seems like the logical solution from our all powerful leader right? It doesn't make sense.

I took these together because they are sort of the same observation.

We'll start with the 'God is mysterious' part. Surely, it does not follow that because a given state of affairs is convenient it is rendered implausible. This happens all the time, in fact. All of the Philosophy of Religion is plagued with these sort of 'punts'. According to symbolic logic, these punts are totally permissible, if taken with the respective assumptions about God and the universe that they require. This includes other faiths and atheism. Completely non-unique, and as such, awash.

Going along with your next observation, about the logic behind God's decision; with the breadth of knowledge concerning the situation that we have, this might appear to be the case. However, it seems perfectly reasonable to me that an omniscient God might be privy to some premise which might make His course of action completely reasonable. Perhaps every person of Midian's tribe was actually evil? This doesn't seem far fetched in the slightest, as this happens in other places (Ninevah, Sodom, Gomorrah, the entire Planet {Noah in Genesis}).

Moving on, when you say, 'logical solution' and 'it doesn't make sense' I take you to mean this: it appears that God's commands are immoral, as the reaction to the peoples' sin seems to far outweigh their actual wrongdoing. Forgive me if this is not your intent, I'm trying to be as charitable as I can. From our perspective, certain sins might seem trivial, but God is viscerally opposed to even the slightest breach of conduct. If one assumes the utter omniscience and omnibenevolence of God, then this is in complete concord with His decision concerning Midian. All people are in violation of God's law. God has mercy on some people, allowing them to redeem themselves by way of faith in Him. However, God owes nobody anything but their due penalty; death. Even if the people of Midian had not done anything to Israel, specifically, I fail to see the error in God rendering to someone their due recompense. You might question that recompense, but again, it doesn't work within a Christian paradigm, as the very basis for our morality is in the command that you are querying. Later you say that God does not exist, in which case, there is no moral law. So, even if you wanted to smuggle in your own ethical system, it'd be left without any objective ground and rendered impotent.

So either YHWH is God, in which case He must be 3-O (omnisicient, omnibenevolent, ommnipotent), and as such cannot utter a false claim as if it were true; which would extend to His commandments, or there is some way in which God has breached an ethical code, however, no ethical codes can be logically grounded in anything other than God's commands, without being afflicted with utter relativism.

Again, I'm working from the perspective that if these stories are, in some way, true, but god doesn't exist, and the more logical explanation in this story is Moses was on a power trip and needed some people convincing his followers away murdered and raped.

This is actually the most interesting part to respond to. You claim that it is most logical that Moses was on a power trip, etc. However, this only follows if you assume the following: ~God (not-God; that is, God does not exist). So, in a debate about the intentions of a deity, you are making an argument that assumes the conclusion which you are trying to demonstrate in the first place; that is, that God doesn't exist.

Surely, if God does exist, then the story could be totally plausible, for reasons that I've outlined above. Mostly for the reason that our epistemic range is sorely lacking, rendering us incapable of knowing enough about the situation to rule in favor of or against God without first assuming one or the other to be true.

EDIT: This is taking wayyy more time than I was expecting. It's clear that you're fully convinced of what you believe, and answers to the questions you are asking have already been given. It was fun to write some of these, thanks for engaging with me, but I won't be responding anymore after this. I'll pray for you (:

[–]badbrotha -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

*Mostly for the reason that our epistemic range is sorely lacking, rendering us incapable of knowing enough about the situation to rule in favor of or against God without first assuming one or the other to be true.

And this is where you and I break from our conversation, one, cuz I'm drunk and need to go to bed, and two, I will not consciously follow any being that would state, "follow me and never question my intentions or belief." You've stated with length the difference between our paradigm beliefs. You operate within the logic that god exists, is infallable, and any questions we might have of his supreme logic is made null by the fact we are human and he is not.

And working off the possibility that God exists, I do not see "take every virgin woman as your own, while killing all the rest" is an 'ethical' or 'godly' solution. But I guess that fits the old Judeo-Christian narrative. "Ah shit, these people aren't like how I wanted them. Flood the world, burn them all." Good thing Jesus proved God wrong, I mean, fulfilled the old promises. Yeah that's the phrasing I meant.

[+]elusivelol points 9 years ago* [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

The punishment for rape is death. Them getting married was only an exception.

[–]MisterGrieves 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]elusivelol points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Them getting married is the only exception and it's up to the father of the girl to decide. If the father didn't agree to it the rapist would be killed, because the penalty for rape is death.

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You are right.

Like the women that claim that society/men force them to shave or wear make up or dress a certain way when reality is more like going to the gym: everyone is more concerned with themselves.

About this, I honestly believe that a lot of feminists positions (and what attract many women to feminism) are about removing the possibility to lose to other women. We are naturally competitive, we are gatherers, we fight for men approval so the best men can impregnate us, this is how we are programmed. But I believe that a lot of ugly or just insecure girls are attracted by this feminist idea of a world were women are just a giant shallow blob, where nothing matters, where women are all equals, so no one wins or loses no mater if they are hotter, smarter, kinder, and so on. Just anther reason feminism is against nature.

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I think it makes him look as bad as her or slightly worse, but no one on either side likely looking online for a serious discussion. As I say all the time, men's rights and this sub in particular, has a big image problem. This type of thing turns people off whether it's feminism or men's rights. Still waiting for the day that I see statistics about prison sentencing or something more substantial hir the front page. We should be looking at the first couple generations of feminists and how they got men on board. Plenty of older feminists (my mom included) aren't into this third wave and could be rallied 5o the cause. Too much content is trying to have a laugh or take a dump on the other side. This should be a liberal cause, but they're not going to see that through snark and anecdotal stories. Show them that men get their lives ruined for things women get a slap on the wrist for (en masse) remind them that while most rapes aren't reported that those include men getting raped. Remind them that men's rights are gay men's rights, too. So many missed opportunities.

[–]Spacelieon 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Bletchlypark points 9 years ago* [recovered] (17 children) | Copy Link

How delusional do you have to be in the first place to think men are more disgusted with periods than rape?

What did daddy do to this poor Psychopath to make her hate men so much?

[+]Bletchlypark points 9 years ago* [recovered] (14 children) | Copy Link

Sorry a couple hours later I am coming back to this and have more to add:

I am a father, I love my 4 year old girl more than life itself. How can someone honestly say I don't care about rape. Oh my god that makes me so angry. I would lay down my life to protect my daughter and I would do the same for any of my 3 sisters.

If this isn't trolling this person is scum!

[–]chadwickofwv 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Bletchlypark points 9 years ago* [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

No I have pretty much always had the view that all human beings should have equal rights be treated with dignity and respect.

[–]greengardenmoss 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

Your comment stood out to me because you replied twice with hours separating your posts. It seems like most people usually comment and then forget about it so I'm guessing it really bothers you.

I was wondering why you were so angry at what the post said. You mentioned that you have a daughter and 3 sisters that you love. That's pretty personal. Do you feel like this post was aimed at you personally because you are a man? Do you feel personally offended at it? Do you think that statements like this are greatly damaging society?

What do you think about statements like, "white people don't care about black people being killed by police"? "Americans don't care about the rest of the world"?

Do you think that this woman's post was not treating men with dignity and respect and that is what made you angry? Is it too critical of men or does it lump them all together because it doesn't say "some men"? I'm really trying to understand because there has to be a reason that it evoked such a strong emotion for you. Maybe you've had bad experiences with feminist women?

For me I am white but sometimes do advocacy work for race based groups. I frequently encounter very militant advocates with a lot of anger towards white people. Sometimes they have had very bad experiences.

Would you still consider this person to be scum if you found out she had been raped?

No worries if you don't feel like engaging in discussion

[–]effyou 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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[+]Bletchlypark points 9 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

I would think someone who has been raped wouldn't trivialize it by comparing it to a menstrual cycle...

[–]greengardenmoss -2 points-1 points0 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you think her quote is trivializing rape?

Is her quote really comparing menstruation to rape or is it comparing the reaction of other people to these things?

Have you ever spoken with a rape victim about their rape? There can be a wide variety of psychological reactions and coping mechanisms.

Do any of your sisters know someone who has been raped? Statistics suggest that we all do even if that person does not tell us it happened. If they live nearby it might be worth it to ask them about this issue. It's possible they have a different perspective and it might give you some insight about what your daughter may be exposed to when she gets older. Women frequently tell other women about these issues but because it is sensitive we rarely speak to other men about them. I'll bet that is true amongst men too.

My brother also has a daughter. If he had had a boy I would have never brought up these issues with him. But I think that when you are raising a child of the opposite gender it's good to learn more about the issues that are common with that gender.

[+]Bletchlypark points 9 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Do you think her quote is trivializing rape?

Yes, that is what I said isn't it?

I don't know why you keep trying to troll me but have at it I'm not going to bite.

[–]greengardenmoss -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm not trolling I'm trying to have a discussion. It you don't feel like it, fine. I have been nothing but polite and trying to engage and I even said "If you don't feel like having a discussion no worries."

We disagree, but that is fine, that's what these forums are for, no?

She is not trivializing rape. She is complaining that [many] men trivialize rape.

She does not say "many" or "some men" because it's like saying "men wear ties". It's true, even though some men do not wear ties and some women do wear ties.

Saying "men" are not as disgusted by rape as they are about menstruation is not trivializing rape. Rape is portrayed in many movies for titillation for example. Menstruation elicits more disgust and is not shown in movies. In my view it is not just men but many women who feel more disgust for menstruation than for rape.

I won't message you again since you think I'm trying to get you to "bite". If I was simply trying to provoke you I would have said something mean towards you as a person. On the contrary, you seem like a nice person who is a caring father. It just perplexes me that the OP's post caused so much anger for you and I thought we could talk about it. Sorry if I wasted you time.

[+]Bletchlypark points 9 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Right nothing about this is similar trolling. Well except for the repeated failed attempts to get inside my head and make it personal.

Do any of your sisters know someone who has been raped?

...might give you some insight about what your daughter may be exposed to when she gets older.

Maybe you've had bad experiences with feminist women?

You saw I came back and posted some personal details. So you tried to use that to your advantage to get under my skin and push your feminist agenda. Why did you pick me out from all the comments, because I opened the door by letting some personal details out.

Look, I am going to go super easy on you here because I think you could be the victim of some real trauma in the past. But I think you need to seriously challenge your world view if you really believe some of the things you said here.

The last post said it all, you are starting to trickle out the truth. You really think "some" or "many" men feel this way. You even think rape is portrayed as tantalizing in the media. You were probably about to throw out "Rape Culture" but held yourself back. I am sure if we kept up the "discussion" your further hatred towards men would slowly come out.

For these reasons engaging in any further dialog is pointless.

[–]g_squidman 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Rockbottom503 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

'Imagine if men were disgusted with rape as they are with periods'

Yeah, just imagine - for a start prisons would probably be a safer place for male inmates as the falsely accused/rapists who go to prison would be treated with indifference and therefore wouldn't have to worry on a daily basis about a daily gang ass violation everyday for the mandatory 25 years they're incarcerated for! Come to think of it don't incarcerated men make up the highest percentage of rape victims every year??? Most men I know couldn't give a fuck about menstruation - it's not something we're disgusted by, it's something we don't go through - at best we have sympathy for our female loved ones when they menstruate and at worst we take the piss about it with our mates or are inconvenienced by a week without sex - disgusted though..... nah!

[–]KozmicBlooze 9 points10 points11 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]skepticetoh points 9 years ago* [recovered] (7 children) | Copy Link

Seriously, third wave feminists, nobody is disgusted with periods. At all. Everyone is disgusted with rape. I have yet to meet a male that is anti-periods and pro-rape. Stop playing this imaginary victim card.

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ITT: People adamantly defending Christianity's old school beliefs.

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Title	A bit of a lighthearted post for a change
Author	FirstDimensionFilms
Upvotes	12834
Comments	410
Date	June 5, 2017 3:55 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/6ff1fm/a_bit_of_a_lighthearted_post_for_a_change/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-bit-of-a-lighthearted-post-for-a-change.1071779 https://theredarchive.com/post/1071779

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