A Troubling Trend.

oneiorosgrip · 2012-10-14T04:09:17+00:00

If you're in the U.S., and your school doesn't have an equal (the same language) workshop for guys, then they're in violation of Title IX.

*edit - typo

NewAlt · 2012-10-14T06:11:29+00:00

Is this sort of thing common?

It's very common. It's also difficult to raise a stink about it without being vilified or mocked. Hence, the reason for this subreddit's existence.

loose-dendrite · 2012-10-14T05:32:10+00:00

I have to say, I have a big fucking problem with all this work to get women interested in things so that we can all feel better about how many women are filling certain positions because we've been told so many times that when men fill them, it's a fucking tragedy.

Look, if women aren't as interested in certain things because they think they're too hard, or too nerdy, or too complicated, or too dangerous, or just plain boring, how about we just fucking let them be uninterested? What is so fucking bad about that? Really?

Ortizjoel21 · 2012-10-14T04:10:19+00:00

This is actually the less terrible possibility. The significantly worse possibility is that massive STEM quotas are put in place. If this happens men won't even be able to take computer science classes or get STEM jobs if not enough women take them.

misandry_doesnt_real · 2012-10-14T04:03:24+00:00

Try to get a male-only version from the administration, I'd imagine that getting some signatures would help your case. Trying to make it a unisex workshop might be seen as an offensive notion to the female-only one.

rztzz · 2012-10-14T06:00:35+00:00

It's certainly an annoying trend.

Both me and my sister were both in the sciences in college. Guess who got the big scholarship yet had the exact same grades and worse SAT's than me? Yes of course my sister. It wouldn't make me too upset except she still has a "women are discriminated against in the sciences" attitude.

It would also be more acceptable if there were "boys only" poetry or literature readings...or teaching seminars...areas where boys typically have less interest.

Ortizjoel21 · 2012-10-14T04:20:28+00:00

They are trying to get more women in STEM jobs.

ashewalton · 2012-10-14T04:54:52+00:00

This is probably directly related to the low-level of females entering into education in computer science and engineering classes (as a few have pointed out already), but it is a terrible way to go about it. It's something that needs to be encouraged at younger ages (elementary, high school). By the time these girls have gotten to college they've mostly decided, "I don't care if it's nerdy, I enjoy doing it," or have chosen a different area of study. All this is doing is closing doors to their male students who are trying to get ahead.

funnyfaceking · 2012-10-14T06:37:09+00:00

Ask the Principal what's up with that. Let us know what he says. Please.

PurpleZoombini · 2012-10-14T10:20:00+00:00

I'm a woman who took psychology at University. In my class of 200 there were about 5 men. I've yet to see any campaign to get more men into psychology or nursing etc. Either do this type of thing for both genders (if you must) or don't do it at all.

BulletBilll · 2012-10-14T04:16:12+00:00

Actually I can understand this yes and no. I am currenly in a Masters for Computer Sciences and the field consists of a vast majority of men, in my area anyways. I have been asked any times during the course of my studies, along with fellow students, to help reach out to high school students to get into the program. More importantly it's important to get more women in the field to get varying points of view and opinions when developing projects, because you don't know who the end user of a system or a program will be so you need to make sure it fits everyone's needs.

That being said, if that workshop is the only way to learn python at your school and it is restricted for girls only then I agree that isn't right, you should be allowed to learn anything you want if it's available at your school. The reason they put "girls only" was to grab the attention of women who don't really know or "fear" CS for thinking it's either too complex or just too nerdy. But it should still be accessible to all students in an alternate format.

rightsbot · 2012-10-14T03:58:19+00:00

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2012-10-14T06:00:01+00:00

DariusMacab, you need to raise this concern with your school's administration. You've correctly pointed out this is both a gender and legal issue. Raise some hell!

2012-10-14T06:18:38+00:00

I'd go there just to see how many will show up...

yiNXs · 2012-10-14T12:05:15+00:00

"To create equality, we must first separate", seems to be the crazy idea that a bunch of idiots believe "just might work". It's completely absurd, no matter how well intended it is.

Just like this plan here in Europe to force companies to have 40% women in the top jobs.

I'm not saying there isn't any glass ceiling in some companies, but FORCING at least 40% women is just absurd.

Which brings me with the question: why don't they also simply force 40% women to take STEM jobs f.e.? If women really are equal, which I really love to believe (but can't), then it should also be obvious in their job choice, which it clearly isn't!

I'd really like to see more women at top jobs, seriously. I've worked with a couple of very capable female manager (who, btw, would NEVER EVER want to be associated with any pathetic pro-women organization bullshit), but there are just few of them that actually seem to want these top jobs. Just like there's just relatively few women that want technical/programming jobs.

But well, I'm preaching to the choir here of course. The ignorance just annoys me. These people will not stop trying to force the square block through the round hole even this means breaking everything.

ExpendableOne · 2012-10-14T13:27:01+00:00

Nothing gets girls into computer science like appealing to their inner contempt for men and catering to their sense of gender prejudice! I wonder when those "real feminists that aren't like that" are going to start opposing these exclusionary or segregative practices though. They keep telling me that feminism is really about equality so, surely, that's going to happen soon, right?

FireTruth · 2012-10-14T15:11:45+00:00

would the school suport a class for males only?

i sure doubt it....

then that would be sexual discrimnation , as the school is going out of its way to post classes that exlcude males only but not that exclude females. (of course)

file a complaint with the principal..

use the law suite if needed.

funnyfaceking · 2012-10-14T06:33:26+00:00

can you take a picture of the flyer and post it here?

Conneris · 2012-10-14T07:35:23+00:00

When I was a freshman in high school (currently a junior), our robotics team, which I was a part of, had a special engineering seminar during the regular meeting on Thursdays. Apparently it was a young women's engineering seminar to empower the girls on the team, even though there were an equal amount of girls to boys. I felt it was unfair as there was no other variant for the guys on our team. And unfortunately the girls will probably get an easier time getting into an engineering college than most guys do just because they are a minority. I eventually quit robotics because it was extremely over professional in certain aspects and some overly feminist women in charge, which were really intimidating. I couldn't really handle it and felt it would be best to not hang around those people.

JeremyKean · 2012-10-14T08:10:40+00:00

Just flipping back through my Scientific American Mind, His Brain Her Brain issue. In the article Sex, Math and Scientific Achievement it basically points out that men are generally better with visuospatial skills (Math), and girls are generally better with verbal skills. It then goes on to say that one study pointed out that:

those whose mathematical skills are stronger than their verbal ones said math and science courses were their favorites and were very likely to pursue degrees in those areas. On the other hand, those kids whose verbal skills were even higher than their math skills said humanities courses were their favorites and most often pursued educational credentials in the humanities and law.

In the article, it never says that the way to get more women involved in science is to exclude men, and create STEM quotas in universities. It says that it has to start when people are young. That simply encouraging people while they're kids to pursue science goes a long way for both sexes.

Those workshops are insane, and yes, you're being discriminated against. Their decision to only allow in girls is nothing but counter-productive and draconian.

TL;DR Science shows that guys generally excel at math, and girls generally excel at verbal skills; that math oriented people tend to pursue math/science careers, and speech-oriented people tend to pursue humanities. If we want to get more people into STEM careers and close the gender gap, we need to work on encouraging kids, not grown-ass adults. No-boys-allowed science workshops are fucking idiotic, sexist, and draconian.

Pretty long for a TL;DR. Oh well.

lurker_lenore · 2012-10-14T09:56:04+00:00

u/oneiorosgrip mentioned Title IX; here's a summary from the ACLU's [Gender Equality in Education page]9http://www.aclu.org/title-ix-gender-equity-education):

Title IX, a groundbreaking statute intended to end sex discrimination in education, became the law of the land on June 23, 1972. While most famous for its requirement that schools provide girls with equal athletic opportunities, the law applies to all educational programs that receive federal funding, and to all aspects of a school's educational system. Title IX benefits both boys and girls and is the lynchpin of 40 years of efforts to promote and establish gender equity in schools.

And here's the relevant section of text, from the US Deptartment of Education's page:

No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.

I hope that helps. I'd recommend reading the latter page, and preparing notes and/or a presentation before speaking to your school's administration, if you intend to.

Everseer · 2012-10-14T11:24:54+00:00

Welcome to the world of software programming. Woman are treated like diamonds in comp science degrees at uni, however its more interested to see the inversion of the gender percentages. Take nursing for example, it's predominately female but if you ask any male nurse about it, it's usually "yeah most guys are jealous because I get to hang around all these hot chicks at uni"

Headphone_Actress · 2012-10-14T11:47:31+00:00

Show up anyway. If someone raises a stink ask them if there's a Men's one or a Uni-Sex. Read a copy of Title IX, and know your rights.

2012-10-14T13:19:51+00:00

Just wait until you graduate and start looking for a place to live. Unless you somehow stumble upon a vast fortune of scholarships that can pay for on campus residence, it will always be cheaper to rent an apartment close by. However, when I finished my first year in residence and was looking for a new place to live because I couldn't afford it, I had to literally move back home for the summer, several provinces away, because most of the apartments available were "female students only". This is a huge thing but there's nothing anyone can do to stop it because a landlord or property owner is fully entitled to ask for male or female students without legal repercussions. I understand if it's some old lady who wants a girl to live in her extra room or something, but the amount of posters I see advertising a CLEAN, affordable and close-by apartment that are female only is staggering and depressing. The only places I could find were fit for drug addicts and people on welfare. One of them didn't even have doors separating the rooms, just a thin curtain. And by the way, I've yet to see a single poster for "male students only". It's bullshit.

DavidByron · 2012-10-14T18:11:27+00:00

I'd certainly turn up. Make them kick you out because from a legal and moral point of view you'll have afar stronger case if you actually show up and FORCE them to do the obviously sexist thing. Plus others will see what is going on including the girls in the class, who might support you.

captain_zavec · 2012-10-15T03:22:39+00:00

Hi OP. Did you find an answer? I saw one as well recently, I live in ontario and it was a course in CS offered at a local university. 1 week, for highschool students (girls only), cost 150 dollars and included board/food. Closest equivalent for males was about 600 dollars and included neither board nor food. I actually learned about it in a meeting about highschool enrichment opportunities offered by my school, and it was one of the few workshops I actually wanted to go to.

gogoswagprince · 2012-10-14T19:00:41+00:00

I think you're missing the sexual innuendo. "Girl's only python workshop" is a fancy word for porn.

baskandpurr · 2012-10-14T12:44:14+00:00

After reading all the comments in this thread, I notice that strange tone again. Where women are considered like children. They can be persuaded into or out of one type of work or another by men, posters, or quotas. If women want to be programmers, accountant, truck drivers, pilots, bakers nobody is stopping them.

Why do so many people feel that women have to be propped up like this? Are they so weak that they fall apart without extra support? Can't they cope with all those nasty men? Poor little things, how can we expect them to just do what they want to do, that's too much for them.

Feminists think women and men are equal why do they want them treated so differently?

TomBayes · 2012-10-14T15:28:03+00:00

I'd highly suggest finding out who's in charge of it and asking if you can join, even though it's advertised as just for girls. Tell then what you told us, that you love working with Python, but can't find any alternatives to the class. She'll say one of three things: (1) yes, you can join, (2) sorry, this is girls only, but here are some similar classes you might like instead, or (3) no, girls only, sorry. So if she says (1) or (2), you're set. If she says (3), ask for alternatives like in (2). If she can't give you any, then make a big stink to administrators, etc. until they change things.

Il128 · 2012-10-22T16:57:33+00:00

SRS has invaded this thread.

http://www.reddit.com/r/SRSRedditDrama/comments/11w9ri/rmensrights_bemoans_womens_only_programming/

alecbenzer · 2012-10-14T07:44:05+00:00

FWIW I think this should totally be allowed -- the only real issue is that having the same for men probably wouldn't be as socially acceptable.

There's definitely the possibility that women might feel off-put from cs courses by the disproportionately large number of men in them, so trying to introduce them to cs in a female-only context might be useful.

Stratisphear · 2012-10-14T05:14:29+00:00

See, as a CS student, I can definitely support things like that. There are an average of 3 or so women in my classes (out of about 100). Women are definitely under-represented, so trying to interest them is something I can support. However, you wouldn't believe how often I hear from female arts students that "Only a small amount of women choose CS, so they are obviously being discriminated against!". I believe that women on average are less interested in those kinds of fields than men are. I'm not saying they shouldn't be, but that's just what I've seen.

deyterkourjerbs · 2012-10-14T14:43:11+00:00

Dude, get over it. They want their club to be about Python, not some social club for guys to bag the dream geeky girlfriend they've been masturbating about since they were 13. You know, the one you can talk to about Star Wars, Call of Duty AND get blowjobs from.

I work in an IT department that's insanely dominated by men. A mixture of machismo and geekish awkwardness has occasionally lead to the women in it being viewed as objects. i.e. if you want to talk about something, you talk to another guy. Girls are for flirting with, they're not people. Or whatever the fuck. I don't even know.

I've seen in other threads where women on reddit meets have said they've been intimidated about going because it was male dominated. If you genuinely give a shit, make a Python workshop/study group for all genders or ask them to run a second one.

I'm sure you're not a bad person but they don't know that. And if they made an exception for you then... you know where I'm going with this.

eviltwinkie · 2012-10-14T08:02:26+00:00

Yes it is unfair. See my reply in this post for my explaination along with a counter argument to which I replied to.

lamamafia · 2012-10-14T13:14:58+00:00

Go to the event and see if they let you in. If they don't, look at their faces when you call the cops on them for going against the law.

ThePigman · 2012-10-14T13:42:54+00:00

It's all part of filling the middle class workforce with people who are easier to push around. Same reason nobody cares that 58% of degrees are going to women.

vishtr · 2012-10-14T14:16:42+00:00

The legality of it depends - is it a public or private school? Is it offered by the school or an outside vendor? When is it being offered? Is it on school property?

If they are merely advertising in the school it's probably legal.

Source: I have 3/4 of a lawyer next to me.

xendylu · 2012-10-14T14:38:17+00:00

yeah I think you just need tp talk to the facilitator. they probably don't realize what they are doing and will work to fix it if you give them a chance.

Lothrazar · 2012-10-14T17:12:12+00:00

Just show up to the workshop and see what happens. dont let them treat you like 2nd class

CharlieTango · 2012-10-14T20:31:30+00:00

Tell a dean or councilor.

Shattershift · 2012-10-14T10:57:43+00:00

I think these things inadvertently support a different MR issue. The lack of women in STEM fields is something I see as outdated and unreasonable. Providing some sort of push towards that is a good thing, because the fact that women gravitate towards softer vocations of their own accord is fucking irritating.

As an example a "women only" class to get women interested in steel working would be the same sort of good. You wanted equality, it's time to do equal work, ladies. I think that should include not just hazardous occupations, but also more rigorous academic areas.

TL;DR: Don't worry, they're not shunning you as a man, they're just inadvertently focusing on making women get their shit together.

oscarasimov · 2012-10-14T14:24:33+00:00

This reminds me of when I went into this yoga studio to buy me and my girlfriend a month of yoga for her birthday and the lady at the counter told me I could buy my girlfriend a free pass but I wasn't allowed to buy one for myself because it was ladies only.

SCCROW · 2012-10-15T03:31:30+00:00

Google, "online python tutorials".

You are being discriminated against. However; in the long run, the people that have crap handed to them on a silver platter - become confused and must rely on others when they are thrown into the water to swim.

Again, google "online python tutorials", learn it yourself - you'll go further than somebody who is being catered to.

P.S. All the women who attend that workshop should be given a good spanking.

Title	A Troubling Trend.
Author	DariusMacab
Upvotes	240
Comments	271
Date	October 14, 2012 3:58 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/11g363/a_troubling_trend/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/a-troubling-trend.1011404 https://theredarchive.com/post/1011404

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