this comic is fitting for here ....

[–]tothecatmobile 13 points14 points15 points 12 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]domby 59 points60 points61 points 12 years ago* (83 children) | Copy Link

Perhaps I am wasting energy that could be spent on securing equality for females, but this is men's rights and here it goes.

I am a 23 year old male who impregnanted a woman accidentally (the sex itself was on purpose). Unknowning of the pregnancy I made it clear we were not going to start up a relationship, then a month later I was informed. After some damage control I made it clear that at the time we would never be able to give the child a proper lifestyle (I was 20 and in my sophomore year of college, she was an 18 year old freshman). She disagreed and carried on with the pregnancy, and here I am today attempting to pay child support with a crappy job living several states away from both of them. I am free to see the child if I could even afford to travel. Now this sort of thing happens everyday but how should it be handled legally?

EDIT: The usage of the word "Crappy" when referring to the job was meant to describe the low pay that will not nearly cover what the child will surely need in the future. I am just describing a point of view from someone who wished the child would have been supported by two adoptive parents who could provide a stable lifestyle.

EDIT2: It's apparently necessary to state that I absolutely care for the welfare of this child, I wish I could spend time with her and provide her everything she needs to be happy. However this post is about a legal issue of rights, I didn't even present an opinion on the issue, just an example of a man who was given no choice post-consensual sex to be a legal father or not.

[–]abusmakk 25 points26 points27 points 12 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Masterwallabee 23 points24 points25 points 12 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

I agree with the sentiment about child support, but it makes sense for the woman to have the ultimate say in whether or not she gets an abortion. If, at the stage when the woman is deciding that, the man also gets to decide whether he wants to support the child, the system would be a lot better.

If the man decides that he does not want to be involved and the woman chooses to keep the fetus regardless, she's saying that she believes herself capable of supporting and raising a child without the man who impregnated her. If he does choose to raise the child, but she makes the decision that she isn't ready, then they will have to work it out as a couple.

Men and women both have the right to bodily and fiscal autonomy. Systematically taking that from either group without their consent is wrong.

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That's where bodily autonomy comes into play. No matter what, the man cannot make the woman carry her child, or give it up. However, I believe that the man has every right to withdraw financially from the situation at the same time the woman has the right to have an abortion. Similarly, if the woman does not want to raise a child, but is willing to give birth to one for her partner, she should also have the ability to opt out financially. In this arrangement, the woman does have more power, because regardless of what the man wants, she has the ultimate say in what happens to her own body. In my opinion, this is not unfair.

What is unfair is if her ability to choose what happens to her also dictates the future of the man in the situation.

I don't think it's particularly unrealistic to say that men and women should have the option to financially and/or physically withdraw from a pregnancy.

Saying that they are taking responsibility for their actions by forcing them to pay for or bear a child is unfair. Birth control pills can fail, condoms can break, partners can lie. There's no way to be 100% sure of what will happen, and telling people, "well you shouldn't have sex, then," is ethically wrong and morally repulsive.

[–]masterrod 4 points5 points6 points 12 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Now this sort of thing happens everyday but how should it be handled legally?

You should have immediately gone to a lawyer when you knew that she was going to have a pregnancy but you did not want to support the child. This way you could have found out the laws of your state.

Before she filed child support you should have made an written agreement of how you would take care of the child. Since your young you should do it with both of your parents.

It's apparently necessary to state that I absolutely care for the welfare of this child, I wish I could spend time with her and provide her everything she needs to be happy. However this post is about a legal issue of rights, I didn't even present an opinion on the issue, just an example of a man who was given no choice post-consensual sex to be a legal father or not.

If you care for the child then child support is somewhat moot. Unless she's simply vindictive women usually go for child support when they don't have confirmation from of how you're going to take care of the child.

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Once there is a pregnancy there is not point discussing what should have been done to prevent said pregnancy. So it is irrelevant in this conversation.

Of corse it is her right and her body, no one is disputing that.

What I am questioning is whether it is fair, just or equal that women get to opt out and men don't. Your first statement sums it up. At the present time men have no rights after conception. I feel that they should have rights and that they should be allow to opt out. Just as women are allowed.

Obviously you feel strongly that men should have less rights than women, which you are entitled to believe. It does annoy be that you treat a male, who decides he doesn't want a child, as a scum bag when he is no different to a women who chooses an abortion. Both are looking for a way out and only one is allowed a way out.

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What is she up to now?

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That's not the scenario commented on by the comic, and given the biological differences between the sexes, you should use some critical thinking to figure out what is equivalent for both sexes.

Let's pretend that both the father and mother make their choice to be a parent or not before they even have sex.

Both decide not to be parents, but the woman gets pregnant, and they both share some responsibility because it was consensual.

The man already decided he doesn't want to be a parent before conception, so he's out of the picture, it doesn't matter if it's before or after the kid is born, he's gone. Society at large considers men like this deadbeats. The government comes after these men for child support.

The mother made the same decision, so she chooses to abort, leave the kid with the father, or put the child up for adoption. Keep in mind she doesn't need permission to terminate the pregnancy, and in many cases doesn't need permission to put the child up for adoption. Society at large does not consider women who get abortions, or put their kids up for adoption to be deadbeats, and the government doesn't consider most women to be responsible when leaving the child with the father.

And that is why the situation is so fucked up.

[–]cybaritic -2 points-1 points0 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[+]Kronos6948 12 years ago* [recovered] (13 children) | Copy Link

I think the point of the comic that you're missing is that unless the woman decides to get an abortion, the man has no choice but to be a father. The reverse is also true. If he wants to be a father, gets his S/O pregnant, she decides not to have it, it's her choice to have the abortion. Dick move? Sure, because she didn't ask him, but by law, it's not his choice.

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If the guy used a condom and she still got pregnant, you've removed the last option for him. The woman can have sex whenever she wants, and still use abortion as birth control. That's not what abortion is for, imo, but it's still used that way. With your scenario, the onus is still on the man to choose to not have sex. If a woman decides to have sex, doesn't want kids, both parties are using birth control and still somehow she gets pregnant, that mans fate is in her hands. Should she think that it "must be meant to be" because even with birth control, she got pregnant, the man still suffers the consequence of her choice. If she decides to abort, he's still suffering the consequences of her choice. What if no protection was used, and he wanted to keep it? She still could abort, with or without his consent. The same rules don't apply equally.

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Abortion is a question of body autonomy. The woman is able to decide whether or not the child is born, because the child is using her body as an incubator.

Not disagreeing here, but a theoretical question: why is it that the woman has the right to decide the fate of both bodies, while the child has the right to neither?

I have an answer to that, but I'm curious to see how others approach it.

In my opinion, the answer to that is critical for the bodily autonomy argument to work. If it were defined loosely as 'any person has a right to their whole body' and 'person' were to include 'unborn child', then the child would also have a right to keep their body intact, while the mother simultaneously has a right to be free of the child. Without technological intervention, we have a contradiction.

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Thank you, you're the first poster here to point this out. That is much better argument than comparing to pregnancy, because their defense is always 'woman's body - woman's choice'.

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But, if the potential mother knows there isn't a father ahead of time, she could decide not to have a child.

Of course we tend to solve the biological inequality with law, and force the sperm dispenser to be financially or personally involved, as a way to ensure care. We could consider what alternatives there might be, if our main concern is that children are taken care of. Roping in the one person who happened to have been involved in one single instance of sex that led to fertilization, doesn't to me seem like it is the best possible solution.

Children deserve parents who want to be parents, and who are capable of being parents. Someone having had sex at one point, someone having been involved in one particular instance of sex, isn't the ultimate qualifier for that. And, we also have governments so that they can direct where resources go, what they are used for. Forcing one person in particular, to give up their funds or time, isn't the only way to go about it.

[–]pixelskeleton 5 points6 points7 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think that this is a complicated issue and it is difficult to treat both sexes equally in this case because of the nature of the pregnancy, but you have come the closest here to proposing an effective and fair solution. If the father proposes a legal stance of disinterestedness in the child at a time when an abortion is still physically possible (thereby absolving himself of responsibility for the fetus before it ever exists in any human capacity), then that could be considered the male version of 'aborting' responsibility, and the woman's decision will have to be made with the absence of a partner in mind.

However, if a father (and mother) agree to support a human child then they should be legally obligated to do so, because after the birth of the child there is another human being who's rights have to be considered.

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[+]5iveby5ive 12 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

what if it's the other way around...?

what if the father wants to have the child but the mother does not...?

THAT'S what this comic is actually getting at.

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Well, the amount of hours doing terrible jobs, like coal-mining for 18 years to pay child support would be worse than going through pregnancy then giving birth, but that doesn't matter because I'm not arguing that either people should have to do something against their will. SivebySive's point I think was that the father, if a willing parent, equally loses a child if the mother decides to abort, as the mother would lose a child if forced to abort. But in our society we don't empathize with the male's perspective in these common scenarios.

The other major point is that unlike what you said, the mother can't just "end up" with the child in any way at that early of a stage. When she learns she is pregnant, it is completely her choice whether or not she keeps the child, aborts, or gives the child to adoption. The guy has no choice in the matter. It's unfair that he may have to pay child support even if completely against having the baby. At that point it's her choice, sure, but she should have the responsibility if she decides to keep the baby and the guy decides not to.

[–]1boytoy1 3 points4 points5 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]therapy 12 years ago* [recovered] (75 children) | Copy Link

Yes, the point here is the child, not the parents. It's self-centered to just think about how things affect the adults.

If the mother gives birth, there is a child. That's a fact. Without support from 2 parents, that child is going to have a poor start at life. This might be unfair to the father, but the child is a person as well.

Yes, women have an inherent advantage in this particular aspect of life - they can decide to abort or not. There's no point in being angry or demanding equality there, no more than women can demand equality for men being on average bigger and stronger.

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I assume you mean the future of the child created and not the future of cloning? That depends entirely on the type of clones created. A dummy clone which is basically yourself re-created but with no brain function would and should not compromise anyone's moral compass as it is not a life of it's own. It does not function as a human being, has no self awareness or thought.

Creating a kid in a dish isn't technically a clone, although might follow similar creation processes. Either way that would have it's own brain functions and consciousness, so that would be classed as a real person. Which I can understand might go against other peoples morals. Personally I have no morals which apply to this subject, I see no issues with creating children. In fact I see a lot of benefits in the processes over the normal approach. I'd much prefer sex were deferred to recreational fun, and reproduction was instead controlled.

I guess it takes a lot of the "magic" out of having a child. But eventually people will forget such notions. I've seen child birth and fuck me is it anything but magical.

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No part of a woman's body is a "ball of cells that has no rights". Thus, for something to be properly described as such, it cannot be a part of a woman's body.

Does your left pinky have rights, or do you have rights? Your pinky is an amalgam of cells too, right? Human cells? Does your left pinky not having rights make it not a part of your body, or does it being a part of your body give you the right to control it?

I would describe a pinky as being simultaneously a part of your body, and having no rights of it's own. The right to control it is yours. Hence, if you believe a woman has the right to control the fate of an unborn person, you believe that said unborn person is a part of the woman.

Except, as you have just stated, that "ball of cells" is not a part of the woman's body.

I called you selfish, which you are, because you want to go out and fuck people without repercussions. Then, if shit catches up to you, as it should, and somebody gets pregnant, you don't want to be responsible. You would rather that infants be classified as inhuman, so that you can kill them. Prime fucking example of selfishness.

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Well, a better example would be to say it is like a brain dead body that under most circumstances, given nine months, will become a human with full brain function.

Future status is not relevant to rights at the point of abortion.

doctors give her a %99 chance of recovery

Brain death is death. It has 0% chance of recovery. Brain death is not a coma. Recovery would be a literal proof of religious higher power and intervention. The brain does not "restart".

Coma patients have rights. They have brain activity. Coma patients in a coma for decades (which also, doesn't happen) still have rights decades later.

Terri Schiavo was not brain dead and still was allowed to die. Certainly, she'd warrant higher rights than a ball of cells incapable of independent biological survival. All she needed was a feeding tube.

[–]MonkeyBeach 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

You are right about the brain death, you don't come back from that. I should have taken more time to write out my comment. But I still think I have some valid points I can make.

You say future status is not relevant to the rights at the point of abortion. Why do you think that? What are you reasons? Is future status ever relevant, and if so at what point does it become so?

Without interference, Terri Schiavo would have died naturally. Without interference, a zygote will often become a fetus, and then become an infant, and then become an adult.

You seem to stress that dependency illegitimizes any of fetus' rights. Would that be fair to say? But while a fetus is entirely dependent on it's mother, infants are also entirely dependent. And many adults are entirely dependent on others. What in your mind is the difference in the degrees of dependency?

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I agree, and I never said the father would be a deadbeat. My dad left me when I was a kid, and my mom never said he was a deadbeat, she told me he was a great person, but he wasn't the kind of person who was able to raise kids and give them his full attention. But at the same time, I would have felt less left out as a kid if he was in my life. Bottom line, it's BOTH man and woman's choice. If the father leaves, and the woman doesn't get an abortion, that's HER choice to be a single mom, he's not forcing her to keep it, he just knows he won't do good or he's scared. If he leaves and she gets an abortion, that doesn't make him a bad person either. Neither parties should commit to something as special as a humans life if neither are ready. It's common sense that a lot of people don't seem to have.

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It's her body until the umbilical cord is cut. Literally, they're connected by cells. Once the baby is developed, has a brain, blah blah blah, then the woman is sharing her body. But they're not indifferent. Let's say this- a girl gets pregnant at 16, it's her own fault and the guys fault she's pregnant. The way I see it, it's sacrifice one to save two. The 16 year old keeps the baby, and the father-even though he's unwilling- stays around to try and support the baby. The woman and man spend all their money and time taking care of the baby, so they don't have time to grow up themselves. Neither parent has a career, moms always working, dad always drinking (or vise versa) and the kid doesn't end up having a good life. Gets into drugs, and gets a girl pregnant at 16. The story repeats. If someone isn't emotionally ready to raise a child to be the best it can be, they shouldn't be forced to keep it. Bottom line.

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[+]selfsufficientnigga 12 years ago* [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

Your argument is predictable, so tell me this: why is a woman allowed to abandon her baby through Safe Haven laws/adoption?

Once the baby is born, it is no longer 'woman's body' issue. Please tell me, why can a woman just abandon the baby, fully legal?

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Like I said, you're destroying the potential of a person being born when you either wear a condom, or abort.

A zygote is the potential of a baby being born (no zygotes aren't destined to develop, most don't make it even close to birth). The sperm and egg, separated, especially when the people are having sex, also have the potential for a baby being born. In other words, you were once a sperm and egg separate. That was you. And you would have been equally non-existent if aborted at a month as if your parents used contraception.

Looking at the popular anti-abortion argument on a time-line, it's not consistent. Especially your argument which focuses on unique DNA. That would make every one of the mutated sperm in my balls to be somehow important. So the sperm in my balls right now have less of a chance to become a person. So? Think of the Potential Future Person who will not be born because I'm going to use a condom. The potential future zygote and the current sperm and egg are all cells, part of a potential person, and none of them are going to make it.

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It is irrelevant, and this comic sucks because the female defense is always focused on 'my body, my choice' crap. To show the true inequality with no possibility of them bullshiting you back, ask this: why is a woman allowed to abandon the baby after birth, through Safe Haven laws/giving it up for adoption?

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As we are speaking about abortion here I would assume we are speaking about opting out at the time when abortion is still possible.

If two people equally cause something and only one can choose to undo it, that persons shouldn't be able to force the other one to take responsibility as other one is not able to choose. Nobody should be able to force responsibility on somebody else in such situation. If only one person have right to choose, only that person should take responsibility for its decision, if nobody else would took it voluntary.

If woman can have abortion and opt out from having child at all, man should at least have right to decline child and any responsibility for it at that time abortion is still an option. Then if woman still want to keep the child, it is her choice not his so it should be her responsibility. If society think it is important the child is supported enough it should support the child (in similar way orphan is supported), not force the guy that never intended to have it while woman could have chose whether she wanted this responsibility.

[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Yes what you describe is the standard reply. But my question is what would stop every father of an accidental pregnancy from immediately filing the 'abortion clause' to release him from all financial responsibility? By this system, no noncustodial parent of an accidental pregnancy would pay child support, ever. Because the abortion waiver would become automatic. it would get evoked constantly.

To take it further what would stop men from refusing to take any responsibility for birth control? Just go around spreading your seed and if someone gets pregnant, so what, fill out a quick abortion form and move on to the next one night stand.

I just don't see this as a workable alternative. If you have sex, you should be prepared that there is ALWAYS a chance, however remote that you could become a parent. There is no constitutional right to sex without parenthood. It is a goal to be pursued, sure. But it's not up to society to make it your right.

[–]lobby87 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]lobby87 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Yes what you describe is the standard reply. But my question is what would stop every father of an accidental pregnancy from immediately filing the 'abortion clause' to release him from all financial responsibility? By this system, no noncustodial parent of an accidental pregnancy would ever pay child support, ever.

What will stop him? Nothing but himself, and that is okay as we gave this possibility to woman. I get it is harder for woman to go for abortion that for guy to say he don't want it. But this doesn't give us right to force responsibility on both when only one can choose. In the end it is that woman who choose to give birth to fatherless child not the father. We should have thought about this when we gave one party right to choose for both.

To take it further what would stop men from refusing to take any responsibility for birth control? Just go around spreading your seed and someone gets pregnant, so what, fill out a quick abortion form and move on.

Woman have many ways of birth control too so I don't see this as problem, if you don't want abortion and don't want child use protection. If it fails? That is the risk you are taking, when you know you don't want abortion and having sex with somebody who doesn't wan't child.

I just don't see this as a workable alternative.

What we have now is not really workable to.

[–]iceybluesteel 1 point2 points3 points 12 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]russetpotat0 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Well, if it's accidental, what's the problem with filing every time? We want to reduce accidental pregnancies, because an accident implies the people (or at least one person) was not ready. A couple needs to have this discussion if they want to expect child. Women already have the option to opt out every time so how is this different?

On the birth control point, sex is a consensual activity between two adults. What makes you think the woman can't just tell the man she's not going to have sex unless he gloves his member? Men don't just get to jam it in, that's a rape.

Right now women know what's at stake when they choose to have sex, men don't. Women can see a condom, they know if they're on hormonal BC and if they've missed some, they know if they have an IUD or are off their cycle. Men have her word and a condom and that's it, and no plan B/RU486/Abortion/Adoption/Safe Drop if things go wrong.

[–]junkeee999 0 points1 point2 points 12 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Here's what it boils down to. You are pissed because women can choose abortion and men can't. Fine I understand that. And I agree men should have a voice in the decision. But here's the dilemma. It's a democracy of two. And you can see the inherent problem there. How do you break ties? Well to me the tiebreaker in abortion is, it does effect the woman slightly more because it's her body. So that gives the edge to her. So a democracy of two with a tiebreaker always on one side is in effect logically the same as just saying the decision belongs to the one person.

Fine, men's rights says, have the baby but I'm not paying because I signed an abortion card or something. But the clear loser there, the one men's rights does not consider, is the baby. It's not all just about he vs. she. There's another human being involved who has a right to the support of both parents. regardless of how or why he or she came into the world.

I'm not saying it's ideal. I'm not saying there aren't facets of it which suck. But it's just not so simple as signing an abortion card to solve all these problems.

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Title	this comic is fitting for here ....
Author	imrightandyournot
Upvotes	1324
Comments	281
Date	March 9, 2014 3:37 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1zyy1d/this_comic_is_fitting_for_here/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-comic-is-fitting-for-here.1002976 https://theredarchive.com/post/1002976

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