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The thing that irks me the most about that interaction is that her sarcastic tone of "I love the mansplaining, I'm enjoying it..." is so similar to the tone she seems upset about being used with her. It derails any point she was trying to make by wedging a gender issue in there. It would have been much less distracting from whatever point she was attempting to make by just politely asking he not be patronizing or another more neutral word. These days gender seems a minefield and any time someone says any of these special demonizing words, you're bound to get people's backs up because it's like a lesser form of calling someone a racist or a pedophile.

But fair enough to her, I bet this wasn't the first time this guy talked down to her like this and she was snapping based on previous encounters. The big problem for her is that using terms like that doesn't work well on 1v1 interactions because the other side has to buy into the same jargon and accept it's application before actual communication can happen.

[–]AVAtistar 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]NascentBehavior26 points 9 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah exactly, she used it as if everyone in the room would back her up, maybe clap in support. It's a bit haughty, and he goes completely defensive because as soon as she insinuates that he is speaking down to her because she's a woman (implying he's practicing a low-grade sexism) instead of any other reason... she casts herself as a martyr where the initial conversation disappears and they're left bantering about what the term means rather than what her point was supposed to be in the first place.

I've had a close friend of mine throw gender into an argument we were having once and it just ground the entire party to a halt. A bunch of friends were having some drinks and there was a dumb argument that started into more and more heated conversation until it everyone was saying "why are we fighting? what are we even arguing about?" I said, and I quote: "Yikes, wow, okay, we're all getting a little wound up here, let's just cool down out emotions" I tried figure out some of the misunderstandings a few of us had, some nods go around the room and then she says "- so I can't get upset BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN?!" After that, I knew we were never going to settle this because she refused to listen to my "fucking mansplaining" about calming down... meanwhile we were all getting emotional and upset, which was why I had said it about us all in the first place.

Too late. Trap sprung. I had to leave because she continued to just fume about it. I had to leave because she gave me the fucking silent treatment. She was being too upset to talk to her friend because I had said to the entire room "we're all getting too upset, let's back off". Didn't matter, took it personally like a gender issue. Took her a week to get over it and then afterwards she said "i don't even know why we were fighting! :)"

FUCK!

[–]Jack41096 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Soresmi 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

You weren't telling anyone they had to feel this way or they couldn't feel that way, were you? Look I don't care if she is a woman or a giant bronze cast of a rhino phallus, as a person with intense feelings I am offended she used supposed denial of her emotional state to silence your opinions. Just fucking deal with your nasty ass feelings, HUMAN :) If someone said that to me, man or woman they would quickly find out how vehement and illogical I truly can be.

Edit: I guess to further explain my offense, I know people elicit an extreme emotional reaction in me all the time. However I don't feel it is appropriate at all to say, look you are eliciting passion in me, your logic is invalid compared the omniscient knowledge of my emotions. From this perspective, I would argue to her that I believe she has every right and really should feel however she wants, but I gots the feels too and I'm not using mine as more than to shed some nuance or insight to what already may be pretty illogical.

[–]Settlers6 19 points20 points21 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I think mansplaining might be a real thing.

Explaining done by a man is a real thing. But why make it gendered? Women explain things to men all the time, at times also using a patronizing tone. Anecdotally, I've experience more women explaining something in a patronizing way than I have men.

Even if there would be statistics that show men do it more often in a patronizing way (which there aren't), it's still hard to argue for making it gendered.

To put it in an analogy: we know that black people in the USA commit more burglary than white people (in relative terms). Should we call it "blackburgling"? I don't think so: I think it implies that comitting burglary is somewhat characteristic of black people, which isn't the case since it's only a minority of black people doing it. It would probably also help drive the wedge even further between black and white people. And what would have been gained? A fancy new word to insult black people with? Why can't it just be "burglary (done by a black person)"? The same goes here.

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By the definition of feminism, if you're anti-feminism then you're also anti-women.

Here's the thing with 'definitions', they change. If I say, "someone drew a swastika on the wall", who do you think drew that? You will probably conclude that it was a (neo-)Nazi. And I don't blame you. I would think the same thing. But the swastika was originally a religious symbol in hinduism (for simplicity's sake). Then why did you think Nazi, when that was not its original meaning? Because Nazi's took it over: they created a different meaning for it, and made it 'popular'. Same with feminism: bad or misguided people all started calling themselves feminist and doing misdeeds in the name of feminism. That caused the meaning of the word to change. The meaning of a word is first and foremost in the minds of people, and second in a dictionary. A dictionary is descriptive and not authoritative, it describes the meaning that a word has to (most) people, not create a meaning and force people to abide by that meaning (if that were the case, words could never change meaning). Even outside the MRM, feminism has become a bad word in people's mind. The 'good' feminists could stop labeling themselves as feminists, or they should change how they label themselves to something like 'egalitarian', which actually fights for equality, whether it has to fight for men or for women.

I don't think you're actually anti-feminism, you're anti-asshole, but those people are a minority of the movement and by generalizing you're just making things worse.

It might be a minority but that doesn't mean it is not a powerful, influential minority. I mean, words like mansplaining or manspreading have entered the mainstream: Tom Hanks was accused of manspreading, the Time, CNN, the Guardian and Quora talk about it, a senator was accused of mansplaining etc. Yet it is not outright rejected by society/the mainstream as sexist against men. It appears to carry some validity or weight, when you accuse a man of manspreading.

If let's say a Republican came up with the phrase "jewing money" when talking about fraud, it would be rejected by the mainstream media and society at large immediately. Nobody, except neo-nazi sites (which aren't exactly influential or reputable), would even question if it is wrong to use the phrase. Yet mainstream media, senators and celebrities know of the phrases like the one in the OP and don't seem to consider it incredibly sexist. And society at large doesn't seem to be in an outcry at the media for it, so they are apparently indifferent to it and possibly in part in agreement.

Apparently, the reach of that feminist minority is far and wide. Which is a cause for concern, especially when the supposed great majority of good feminists are nowhere to be found. "Well, the minority is just more vocal" That just means you, the "good feminist", aren't vocal enough. If you care about feminism, why aren't you trying to be more vocal than that minority then? That's how you can save feminism. Make a blog entry or a YouTube video and explain how those supposed 'minority feminsts' are wrong and don't represent real feminism. But I don't think I have to tell you that those kind of counter-messages are few and far between: they don't come close to measuring up against the supposed "small minority of bad feminists".

Final note, if the largest feminist organisation in America, NOW, misunderstands something like the wage gap (which they do), leading to 'balancing' measures that unfairly disadvantage men (e.g. hiring quotas), wouldn't you say feminism harms men? What would it take, for you to be convinced that feminism harms men? Or will you say that NOW "isn't real feminism"? If they aren't, then where the hell is that supposedly big majority of real feminists hiding?

P.S. sorry that this got so long.

[–]marauderp 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Settlers6 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I never said those words were okay.[...]I personally don't understand why it's wrong to have a sexist name to call out a sexist behavior,

You contradict yourself. With the first bit, by saying "I never said those words are okay", you imply that you consider those words wrong. You say this to counter my implication that suggested that you thought they were okay to use. Okay, fair, maybe I misconstrued the meaning of your earlier comment.

However, one sentence later you say "I personally don't understand why it's wrong [to use those sexist words]". So apparently, I was right and you DO believe that it's okay to use those words. In your original reply to Senor_Met, you apparently did justify the use of those words, which is what I accused you of doing in the first place.

I understand the post by OP here is that it's not kind to use a sexist term, but it's not like these things don't actually happen or are made up by women.

That sentence is where the justification happens. You make the following mistake, which I also pointed out earlier: just because a small group of men IS sexist (which I conceded), that does not justify using a word that paints that particular sexist behaviour (e.g. explaining in a patronizing manner) as a trait of the people of that sex. Women explain condescendingly as well, at times. There is no reason to assume men do it more, except for personal anecdotes.

What also bothers me is that you say that it's okay to fight sexism with sexism. If someone is being sexist, can't you just tell them that and confront them with their sexism, instead of throwing sexism back (in a clearly non-ironic way)? Why use a term that implies that the gender of that person is somehow sexist, for what this one person did? As a non-sexist that you probably think you are, why would you use sexist generalisations for the actions of one person, who happens to be of a certain gender?

To put it in an analogy: Imagine if a black person talked back to me in some form and I responded with "Oh, are you BlackTalking?" (using BlackTalk as a play on 'back talking'). In that sentence, I am implying that back talk is somehow more characteristic of black people than of people of other races, because of the "Black" that I put in the word. If I believed talking back was done equally among every race, it wouldn't make sense to have a word that specifically accuses black people of doing it. Same goes for "mansplaining" (or manterupting).

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[–]Badgerz92 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

We aren't talking about crazy vocal minorities of feminism though. We currently have an anti-equality feminist president, and the Democrats just tried to put another one in office. Anti-equality feminists run many universities. They have a lot of power and influence, and many anti-equality views are central to mainstream feminism. If you think this is just a crazy minority then you don't know much about feminism, and should really lurk here more. You're just assuming we are focusing on a crazy minority instead of sticking around to learn why MRAs are actually against feminism. It's not because of crazy tumblr feminists, it's because of mainstream views within feminism both now and historically

I'd recommend checking out a new documentary about MRAs that will be online soon. You can look around for interviews with the director about her experience making the film. She started out as a feminist, but by the time the film was finished she no longer considered herself a feminist because she learned that "crazy vocal minority" wasn't much of a minority after all

[–]Senor_Met 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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This definition is spot on. As if there don't exist women who love the sound of their own voice, despite that it's awful and they're actually inarticulate and wrong about everything.

That said; I still have yet to properly encounter this nu-school feminism in real life. I've been consulting with a big global firm just lately that prides itself on diversity and inclusion and all that, in the city of Londonistan, good mix of people of all backgrounds; not at all a 'boys club' and yet everyone just gets on, does their job, enjoys very politically incorrect banter in the office, mocks stories about bullshit socjus. Maybe there are people there silently fuming in the minority but they would have surely caused a stink or tattled to HR by now, one would have thought. Maybe this hypocrisy and entitlement can only gain traction on the internet where pointless and unlikeable people suddenly have a voice.

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Sure:

Feminists insist that women are superior to men and therefore should be a class above men that has social protection from insults and interruptions. This protected class also has no obligation to give any regard to the opinions of the inferior lower class that is comprised of gender(s) not female.

To enforce this, they invent sexist terminology to ridicule non females that act as equals to the (supposedly) superior female class. This is analogous to racist slurs, or sexual orientation based slurs, such as (I think you already know a few.)

In this case, the oppressed group has retaken the term in an attempt to disempower the hate speech of feminism. Similar responses have worked for racial and orientation based hate speech, and hopefully it works here as well.

Go ahead, say woosh. Yawn.

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Are you seriously arguing that interrupting is wrong, but since men allegedly do it more than women that makes it acceptable behavior for women?

Firstly: Show your sources. I doubt very strongly that women get interrupted more than men, but since it's your claim the onus is on you to prove it.

Secondly: If you think a behavior is wrong, don't do it to other people. Your attempts to rationalize the behavior while simultaneously condemning it as wrong are the root of the problem.

BET exists because blacks are more racist than whites and there isn't a stigma on their racism. They therefore demand black only entertainment. For non racists, the race of the people in their tv box is irrelevant. Not really interested in this tangent because it's ludicrously racist.

However, since I enjoy a lot of korean and bollywood cinema and I find your asian comment hilarious. When was the last time you watched an asian movie with a white lead? Bollywood? To declare that our society (and only our society) is required to rotate races through everything because your racism demands it is malarkey.

You are exposing yourself as very sexist, and appallingly racist. It's a very unflattering look.

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Here's a basic crash course since you don't seem to know American history.

150 years ago slavery ended. A large portion of the African American population were now newly freed slaves.

In 1964, about 50 years ago, segregation was made illegal with the passing of the Civil Rights Act. Fifty. Years.

Grandparents are around that remember segregation. But so many whites in the US don't understand how things could still be messed up. How maybe outlawing segregation doesn't end racial inequality and systematic oppression overnight. Capitalism preserves wealth structures. Educated people have educated children. Now I'm not saying that an individual African American in an inner city area cannot succeed, but they are at a distinct statistical disadvantage from, say, someone whose parents went to a prestigious university.

To think that racism against colored people could disappear from a society over the course of 50 years like that is entirely ridiculous. If you cannot acknowledge institutional racism against colored people, along with the social and economic bias against women, then you are intentionally doing mental gymnastics to play victim and its pathetic

[–]Siganid1 point 9 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Congratulations you've almost achieved step two. You got very close when you accused me of being ignorant. Keep going.

Now is the time to find an echo chamber, because your flawed logic traps and moving goalposts make a debate worthless.

Your entire post above is a refusal to address what you were obligated to show evidence for, and instead you attempt to "prove racism is real" which is addressing a statement I didn't actually make. I never claimed racism doesn't exist, in fact my claim that blacks are more racist than whites is inclusive of the idea that racism does exist on both sides.

You attempted to slyly accuse me of something I didn't say. Bad form.

This is a place for an oppressed minority to discuss it's problems, and you are clearly here to bully it's members from a position of privilege.

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Lol jesus christ man.. do you just use every trick in the book without actually making a factual statement? Notice how you're accusing me of objectifying women, without any sort of actual reasoning beyond I'm commenting on your shitty comments. Notice how you appeal to my emotions, in saying "women are people too", as if with no reasoning or facts because feels (note username), I should feel bad for defending men rights.

I understand you're probably 16, caught up in SJW beliefs and that women are somehow mythical, helpless creatures and they need YOU to stand up for their rights.. but that's just a little sexist bud. Both genders have issues that need addressing. Just because this group fights for mens' rights, doesn't mean they should be dismissed because men are not important in the world.

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Trending on Urban Dictionary

Comments

hypocrisy*

Title	Trending on Urban Dictionary
Author	Ophiopogon
Upvotes	12870
Comments	395
Date	November 30, 2016 11:40 AM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5fp5pn/trending_on_urban_dictionary/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/trending-on-urban-dictionary.1072477 https://theredarchive.com/post/1072477