Discussion: top 20%

retal1ator · 2021-05-15T13:10:42+00:00

It's absolutely real but what people don't get is that it's also relative. Women will ONLY be attracted to the absolute best males within a social group.

When you say "70% of Americans are fat so it's not hard to be too 20%" you don't get it. How many single 20-30 year olds are obese? The young, single women who are looking for a guy to hook up with aren't choosing from a pool of middle aged obese men. Their peers are mostly in shape and fit, and the most fit within all of those guys is gonna be the one she chooses.

Conversely, I work in a competitive field with good pay and a lot of young people. Almost all the guys in our office are 6ft+ and make $100k+, but despite all of the guys being top 10% or so for the general population. ALL of the women in our office have a crush on the same 1 guy. So even guys who could be seen as top 20% in general are literally invisible, when the group you're in is exclusively tall, rich men.

samxx9 · 2021-05-15T11:39:55+00:00

The problem with this whole 'top x percent' thing is that if the whole group gets more competitive the problem stays the same. It's a relative standing, not an absolute one. Being relative it therefore means that no matter what happens, there is a majority of people who don't find a match. That's a pretty unhealthy long-term situation if you ask me.

perfect-leads · 2021-05-15T08:58:41+00:00

I mean it exists; I had "Top 20%" friends in my late teens/early 20's who basically just got laid at will lol with Girls who probably wouldn't have noticed I existed had I not been "In the Group".

This is a Phenom that exists outside of the "Dating App Dynamic" and the easiest place to see it in Action is at a moderately sized house party (the project x type ones it's harder to keep track of people).

That being said it's not "End All". I consider myself fairly "Average". But I took decent care of myself, I'm 6 Ft and reasonably Athletic. But most importantly I utilized the idea of "Social Proof".

Wasn't wealthy in the slightest, only Average Looks, Average Fitness (no 6 Pack, little bit of chub). But by being the "Cool Rave/Party/Nightclub Guy" who had all the hookups, knew were every party was, could connect people with whatever they were looking for and was reasonably Charismatic (not Casanova but also not a Troll either); I definitely slept with Women who were much higher on the "SMV" Scale then me (and slept with an abnormally large amount of Women; considering how many Partners most Men have had when I've ever had conversations about it).

So no it's not necessarily static; and things like "Game" will only get you so far. It's more about understanding what you're good at and learning to utilize those skills (not just with Women but in life).

4everrekt · 2021-05-15T15:52:11+00:00

Women’s preferences for men seem to follow a Pareto distribution, based on the various okc and tinder studies.

I think what’s not being discussed enough is the influence of the environment on women’s evaluation of men. The context under which women are approached is just as important as the approach when talking about effectiveness.

You can be fat, bald, broke, and ugly, but if you’re “the man” in a particular environment, you’re getting women.

Regarding how difficult it is:

In a social setting, if you can figure out who the movers and shakers are, ie, the men who are the most respected and admired, and get them to accept you as part of their group, boom, you’re now top 20%. Getting them to want you around is a function of the value you can provide to them.

mindsanitizer · 2021-05-15T08:50:33+00:00

[deleted]

Im_The_Daiquiri_Man · 2021-05-15T08:41:55+00:00

The top 20% thing is very real in that about 20% of western men total can get laid “at will” and will never want for sex until they fall out of the top 20 via age or by just letting themselves go, whereas 80% of women can get laid at will by men across nearly all demographics.

The less discussed part of the 80/20 rule is that the top 20% is diverse and unique from woman to woman.

So, woman A has her 20% of guys she would crawl over glass to fuck in a port-a-potty but woman B might not even give that guy her number.

So there is a group of elite men, but they are elite in their demographic

It’s not just Chad the quarterback but also Brandon the guitar player and Antonio the yoga teacher.

The only pseudo “universal Chad’s” are celebrities but their rule set is so different that they’re not even worth discussing.

Zippo-Cat · 2021-05-15T10:15:50+00:00

80/20 rule. is it real?

Hypergamy is real, although the 80/20 barely proves it because it came from an OKCupid blog post that most Redpillers accepted without further critique just because they liked it. Then some of them remembered that Pareto Principle is a thing and claimed is as the cause.

I recommend watching this if you want a proof of female hypergamy that is more grounded in science.

how hard is it as a man to achieve top 20% status? After all, 70% of men (and women ofc) are fat or obese.

It's closer to 40% and depends on many factors. For example just look at that map.

But the real problem is that if you're not obese that doesn't make you a high value male, it makes you a normal value male. That is just the entry point at which women start even considering you as a potential partner. You're not copeting with old fat fucks, you're competing with other normal looking dudes.

what about top 20% men who want LTRs?

Top X% men can do whatever they want. I honestly don't think Chads are any more promiscuous than average Joes, since we're all taught from the young age that monogamy and LTRs are relationship goals. The only difference is that this actually works for most Chads, while it doesn't work for the rest.

is the top 20% only based on physical looks, or other characteristics such as intelligence, confidence, wealth, etc?

It's definitely not ONLY based on looks, but how important the looks are has been a subject of fierce debate for years.

AreOut · 2021-05-15T09:28:44+00:00

it's not the exact number, some women find 5% of men attractive, some find 15% some find 50%...it's ~20% on average

so, on average 4 women will be attracted to 1 guy and the other 3 guys will be totally unimportant

it's interesting that in Islam men are allowed to have 4 wives so it corresponds well to 20/80 principle

Kaisha001 · 2021-05-15T09:12:27+00:00

It is real: https://goldvalueideas.com/2021/03/17/sex-differences-in-romantic-selectiveness/

What is causing it, and what to do about it are real and interesting questions. Sadly we never get past the BP gaslighting/thread derailment to discuss the nuances...

It could be a biological built in imperative. It could be that male T is the lowest its ever been (almost every trait that women find sexually arousing in men corresponds to T levels). It could be social media inflating expectations. It could be makeup/modern beauty products/photoshop causing women to think they are higher than they really are. It could be modern hormonal contraceptives altering female hormonal profiles. Or all of thee above, or none...

Why is where the discussion gets interesting, sadly it never happens.

Incoming, 'but personality' and 'I dated this ugly short fat guy once...'.

AmirIsBack · 2021-05-15T08:41:30+00:00

Wanna see how these comments turn out.

TheJim66 · 2021-05-15T08:47:12+00:00

is it real? If so, is this a function of modern society or just the Pareto principle?

It's real and a result of women's hypergamy.

how hard is it as a man to achieve top 20% status?

It depends on where you start. In general I wouldn't say it's very hard. However being in the top 20% just means you are now being seen as an option. You aren't Chad just because you are in to the top 20% and it doesn't mean that pussy will fall on your lap. For that you will need to be in the top 10-5%

--what about top 20% men who want LTRs?

What about them?

is 20% really static, or is it like the USA Income top 1%, where a quarter of Americans are earning in the top 1% at some point in their lives

It's situational but its still generally the same subset of people in most cases.

is the top 20% only based on physical looks, or other characteristics such as intelligence, confidence, wealth, etc?

Looks, status, game

Good-Strong · 2021-05-15T12:05:08+00:00

Many of these guys believe this because they constantly aim only for the top 20-30% girls, who are in turn mostly only interested in "top 20-30%" kind of guys.

Also it can be used as a coping strategy by some to make themselves feel better about their situations. Because believing that 80% of men are in the same position as them (when that is clearly not the case lmao) not only softens the blow, but also makes them less accountable in their minds for why they're in that position in the first place.

FreierSteinkopf · 2021-05-15T12:09:41+00:00

No the 80/20 dating rule is far from realistic. It came from an OkCupid blog and was followed up by this: https://archive.is/ZJymw

I could end it here but people like to bring up Tinder. A dating app where 45% of the population use it mainly for confidence boosts and only 30% of the people actually meet the people they have matches with.

Hypergamy is real (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929710000339) but nowhere near the 80/20 rule. From the breeding ratio we see that women are 30% more likely to pass on their genes in the western world and it fits with the OkCupid data very well. There is much more real life data that could be used to disprove 80/20 but it's kicking a dead horse by now.

Besides that it isn't too hard to reach the top 20% if you aren't fked genetically.

reluctantly_red · 2021-05-15T12:42:30+00:00

-- is the top 20% only based on physical looks,

For the most part yes. Looks are at least 90% of sexual market value.

MoreAlfa · 2021-05-15T15:10:54+00:00

First of all, just be a dude in decent shape wearing clothes that fit and don't act like a fool = top 24.87%.

I'll stop making up math and say this: Do the above three things and you are easily in the top 30% of US men. And you are doing darn good with ladies. Oh, you probably aren't hanging with Victoria Secret models, but who cares--those women have too many bones sticking out :)

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BarestBranch · 2021-05-15T15:30:00+00:00

Top 20% in what? Like, there's a top 20% in terms of height, wealth, muscularity, amount of academic publications, amount of reviews on MyAnimeList.net, etc. Obviously, being in the top 20% by some metrics will help with regards to dating but it's not like there's a singular 20% of men.

bowserfire73 · 2021-05-15T19:57:56+00:00

Obviously top 20% exists. It's almost entirely about looks. Reaching the top 20% is can be anywhere from easy to impossible depending on where you are starting. The problem is that women's attraction is based on characteristics that are either difficult or impossible to change. Some things like facial features can be improved with surgery, but if you're short for example you will never reach the top 20%

Aubrey_D_Graham · 2021-05-16T00:13:05+00:00

Caveat: 80/20 will be 90/10.

It is real and is an expression of Hypergamy.
It's not hard tbh. The average man earns less than 50k. The median single person income is around 40k. If you earn 70k plus, you're top 20% in terms of income. Imagine applying this principle to fitness and social circles.
There are top 20% blue pill men. It's absurd to say they're all RP aware or operating within RP context.
It's not static.
Top 20% has a variety of requirements that women find desirable of which is income, looks, status. Ask women for the rest of their long list like good with pets, kids; goes on vacations to Cabo; etc.

wtknight · 2021-05-16T01:29:25+00:00

It's a general principle that 80% of consequences come from 20% of causes. I think that it probably applies not just to the percentage of men who women are actually attracted to (it's definitely not a large number, which reading the comments of women on this sub will tell you is the truth), but probably the percentage of women that a man would actually commit to rather than just have sex with, as men are just as selective as women in this regard unless said man is actually so desperate for sex that he thinks the only way to have it is to get married to a woman. I know that I probably wouldn't commit to more than 20% of the women out there.

The 20% is not going to be the same for each woman, thankfully for men, despite what a manospherian might think. And it's not just based upon looks, because that's not the only thing that is important to women. Nonetheless, an average man is going to have to put in some work improving himself to make it into the 20% of at least some woman out there.

ChibsFilipTelfordd · 2021-05-15T09:09:35+00:00

I'm a long-time married middle aged dude. Here are my opinions

80/20 is absolutely real. No one wants to be with a loser and the internet causes many women to misunderstand their actual value. This is also true of loser men. Both sides need to realize they won't do any better and they need to meet in the middle. However, men's value tends to start very low and rise. Women's value starts high and falls. That's not patriarchy, that's math and biology. Math means men make more money and gain in maturity. Biology means younger women are more attractive than older women. Again, not sexism on either front, but math and biology.
The manosphere has a lot of fucking problems. It's self-referential, depressed, and mopey. It isn't attractive. But it has keen observations. With the current set of mods, we should call it the Persxn-Identiying-As-Male-O-Sphere.
Thinness doesn't come from exercising, but from eating right. Strength comes from exercise. They go together, but not always. I know a lot of strong fat dudes. But it isn't about fat or not. It's about having qualities that the other gender prefers. Maybe the term is gxnger? Gendxr? I don't know anymore. Anyway, men prefer certain things and women prefer others. The 20% thing is in the things women prefer. It's irrelevant what men want if you're trying to attract a woman.
High Value Men (HVM), to borrow the parlance of the psychos at Female Derangement Syndrome, want casual relationships until the find the right woman. Then they'll settle down. They're test driving cars, as harsh as that sounds. That's life - again, math and biology. Unfortunately they're wasting the time of the women they're casual with. And that's shitty, but it's life.
The 20% thing is "at the time of the relationship." You are correct that values go up and down. Again, men go up, generally. That's not always true - many dudes peak in high school - but not improve over time.
This is a fucking mystery. If you solve this you will become a billionaire. And then the women will kill you for knowing too much, so you'll never enjoy that money.

MisterShogunate · 2021-05-15T09:02:14+00:00

That 20/80 experiment is based on Tinder statistics and not on real-world population. In real life, it's more of a supply of high quality men a girl has access to that determines who gets who which has a lot more lee way in terms of a guy's "status."

poppy_blu · 2021-05-15T12:39:53+00:00

80/20 is a crutch for men who want the gold medal but don’t want to do the work to earn it and try to make their own bitter defeatism a societal problem.

Murphysmongoose · 2021-05-15T13:09:35+00:00

The common denominator with, "men" who can't get laid, or complain about women are that they are gamers. They'll bitch and whine about women being to much work, too much investment, and too taxing on their mental being - then go play online gaming for 6hrs straight, or spend all night cursing some other sweaty dick.

If you spend more time chasing dudes on a video game than you spend chasing girls... I have no sympathy for your frustrated PP.

SaBahRub · 2021-05-15T14:15:03+00:00

Yes, yes, everything is explained by an exponential curve

Everything.

Also, everyone also likes and wants the same things

0112358f · 2021-05-15T21:12:14+00:00

The 80/20 rule (which is a principle not a strict argument about being 75/25 or 85/15) describes the hookup market well. Why? Because high SMV market men opt for variety and easy access over limiting themselves to looksmatches.

The "relationship" market is one man one woman so is far more balanced. Yes top men cheat or have serial marriages but that's at the edge.

What is happening in countries like the US is that at the lower end of the relationship market women are not marrying at all any more.

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2021-05-15T23:29:20+00:00

80/20 is definitely black pill ideology. According to AWALT, a large generalization of women have intrinsic female sexuality that can be bypassed by game. The 80/20 rule is redundant.

2021-05-16T04:13:21+00:00

I think it's fair to say that finding 20 out of 100 men attractive is reasonable.

80 out of 100 women want top 20 men.

Then there's 20 out of 100 women who prefer different men.

80 women compete with each other

20 women don't have much trouble

20 men have it easy (top)

20 men have it harder (unknowingly awaiting unicorn)

60 men are randomly selected for a shot at the struggling 60 women who can't find better (average or below avg men)

billsull_02842 · 2021-05-16T06:41:52+00:00

if this is true i would like to know if the top 20 are defined by looks or money.

Cataclysma324 · 2021-05-16T07:15:53+00:00

I always wonder where I stand on these. I guess I could self evaluate bit it feels biased and as tho I will skew in my favor

Online ratings don't work either as I often get irregular results ranging from flatterers who don't rate, mean people, and those may or may not be honest.

anon1936211110 · 2021-05-17T23:43:16+00:00

The 80/20 rule completely contradicts the idea that women hit the wall.

15% of women are in their 20s, so if the wall exists then it's men who are attracted to the top 15% of women - more like 10% when you exclude overweight/ugly women.

michael1962-01 · 2021-05-15T10:24:53+00:00

Top 20% is absolute easy.

MasterTeacher123 · 2021-05-15T14:44:56+00:00

It’s really not hard to become above average, Your right about obesity in guys. IMO the easiest way to improve is to get a great body. Even more so than game which I’m a big advocate of.

There’s multiple ways to become top 20. There are guys who are there due to looks, some due to social status, some due to a combo of different things.

LillthOfBabylon · 2021-05-16T00:28:21+00:00

It’s a myth so men don’t feel as bad not doing well. If most men fail at getting pussy, then they dont have to blame themselves for not doing well with women. They can just blame women.

Most men are able to do fairly well with women. They’re just not fucking 10 women at once.

There’s been no evidence that only 20% of men get 80% of sex. 49.9% of men get sex weekly or more, and only 16% have no sex.

And if you’re in a fat country like America, being fat isn’t a negative since the majority of the opposite gender is also fat.

Title	Discussion: top 20%
Author	ChibsFilipTelfordd
Upvotes	14
Comments	242
Date	May 15, 2021 8:28 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ncu1s9/discussion_top_20/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/discussion-top-20.775793 https://theredarchive.com/post/775793

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