is it possible that hypergamy itself plays a role in the drastic drop in birthrate in the developed world?

death_by_1000_cats · 2021-09-29T22:24:25+00:00

Most women still have kids. They just have one or two when their mothers had two or three, their grandmothers had four or five and their great-grandmothers had eight or nine.

John_Oakman · 2021-09-29T23:33:02+00:00

It's mostly a middle class issue, in that the cost of child raising in a socially acceptable manner is unsustainable on middle class income. The rich can afford it while the poor dont care.

theoracleofosiris · 2021-09-30T01:54:12+00:00

Women will soon go to sperm banks or chads for alpha genetics, impregnate themselves then get the state to subsidise them. The state will then get the funding from taxes which are mainly paid for by men.

They’ll have their cake and eat it. It is the way things will likely be seeing the way things are set up now.

Men who fail women’s hypergamous standards should just lie flat.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2021-09-30T00:31:44+00:00

In my experience most women are still having children. (though how this continues to play out I don't know)

The difference is now we have one or two instead of the nine our grandmother's popped out.

Now the reason for that is birth control but also the survival rate.

In times where you had 10 kids, about 2 or 3 of them would live. Also in agricultural societies children were additional free labour and were seen as a retirement plan. This is still the case in lots of developing nations

Now we have one or two kids and odds are they both live. Also now kids aren't resources that help out economically. They're now a drain on resources until they hit their 20s (or much later in this economy). Which has cobtrained this a bit more.

Another factor is education. The more a woman is educated, the more they're likely to opt for only one or two kids as opposed to 10.

The boomer generation is an odd example because they had women still have more kids due to birth control not being as wide spread (or reliable) and also those kids actually surviving to adulthood.

I think all those factors are bigger indicators about the birth rates than hypergamy.

If it wasn't women would just use sperm banks or something.

cloudsongs_ · 2021-09-30T02:03:09+00:00

This is a reach. If women have kids, who is going to have the time and money to take care of them? Most households cannot afford to have a parent stay home. The world is also in pretty shitty condition (maybe it always has been) - I don't see many people wanting to have children when the future of the planet is so uncertain.

flamingoinghome · 2021-09-30T09:08:33+00:00

So, you're not actually talking about marriage rates. You're talking about birth rates. Different thing entirely.

When I hear someone who is (presumably) male reduce declining birthrates to whether or not women are keeping up their end (so to speak) regarding sex, I want to ask them a question. And now, OP, I will ask you:

How many children do you want? Not how many you think would be "good for society," not how many do you think you can afford, how many do you, personally want?

Birth rates drop in developed countries because most people do not want scores and scores of children, and living in a developed country makes this easier to avoid.

If governments really wanted to increase birth rates, they might consider financial incentives to have more children, although these would be dangerously possible to exploit, or, more plausibly given how many older couples/couples with fertility problems/same-sex couples are out there, some kind of paid surrogacy system.

superlurkage · 2021-09-30T03:37:01+00:00

No, it’s pretty clear across the globe — if you give women the means and education to make their own decisions, they choose to have fewer kids

pink-summer-sky · 2021-09-30T00:00:40+00:00

Regarding the post on Korean women...

If you are culturally expected to take care of in-laws, children, and the home, why would you not aspire to marry up? Why would you make your situation worse and marry down? It is better to be alone than to choose a life of struggling, birthing, and catering to in-laws.

crookedsummer2019 · 2021-09-29T23:14:25+00:00

I think many couples are just choosing to have less kids (especially middle and upper middle class people), and more women and men are opting out of parenthood altogether.

I don’t think it’s a bad thing. I don’t think we’re going to be extinct anytime soon :).

OXOzymandias · 2021-09-29T22:11:22+00:00

no for most people babies are boring, esp since they have better to do as adults, i seriously mean it, most poeple i know really dont want to lost the fun of life cus they have a full time being to take care of

LePengwino · 2021-09-29T22:14:57+00:00

I suspect it's a perfect storm of factors creating a declining birth rate, and hypergamy doesn't sway too much of that storm.

FitNovember · 2021-09-30T00:51:41+00:00

I never had kids. I’m educated and single. Kids are a HUGE responsibility; but if we ignore that, let’s look at how women must go through 9 months pregnancy, feeling uncomfortable, and then your body getting split apart to give birth… that is SCARY. Plus, women have to miss work when they give birth and take a maternity leave, which can affect their chances for promotions and has really had an impact on the wage gap that exists. On top of all that, women are still responsible for the kids, the home, and they work.

purplish_possum · 2021-09-29T22:13:14+00:00

It's directly related to education. Once women gain access to education birthrates tumble. This is true regardless of the prevailing economic system or health if the local economy. This isn't a bad thing.

TheSnowyPlover · 2021-09-29T23:21:11+00:00

Hormonal birth control plays a huge role here too. Once women could control how many kids they had based on their life circumstances and unique desires, we quickly found out that while most women still want kids, they typically don’t want the 6 or 7 that their great grandmother had—hormonal birth control combined with the availability of abortion, essentially gave women unilateral control over reproduction in an unprecedented way.

NarniaFox · 2021-09-30T07:10:24+00:00

I think access to education and contraception play the biggest role in decreasing birth rates. There are more and more not just single childless people, but also childless couples and couples with one or two kids. When people actually can control their reproductive functions, both men and women chose to have less kids.

Considering South Korea, they have gender-related issues that make women avoid getting married. Here's a good comment about it. It's not about hypergamy, it's about marriage being a good deal for both partners. When it isn't, less people will get married.

michael1962-01 · 2021-09-30T07:39:43+00:00

You are right.

Actually the highest birth rates are where the lowest social security is.

Awan-Zada · 2021-09-30T12:22:35+00:00

My grandmother had 7 kids, she lost the first twins when she was 16, and then she lost another set of twins at age 19. I don't think this has anything to do with hypergamy, rather women being allowed to have a choice in how many children they want rather then risking their lives in order to become a baby making machine.

no_user_ID_found · 2021-09-30T06:43:26+00:00

I’m still thinking it could be subconsciously hardwired into our brain and part of evolution. The developed world is full, overpopulation is killing our planet. Could it be that all these developments we’re going through, what results in less babies being born because men and woman are starting to dislike each other or just don’t want to reproduce, is part of nature actually?

The downside is our economy is not build for decreasing populations.

RabbitNRaccoon · 2021-09-30T13:33:42+00:00

As someone who has lived here for the last 10 years, it's the former and not the latter. In Korea, 8 out of 10 men and women go to college. So it's not education.

The other reasons, job security, wages, housing prices, maternity leave etc are the reasons for low birthrate and not hypergamy. In Korea, you married life, and what you can provide has to be a certain way. And as time goes on it becomes harder and harder to get that perfection and so people don't want the hassle anymore.

In Korea, people marry within the same social class and rarely cross them. So a woman from the lower class would NEVER in hell have access to a man that's a doctor. Your parents job, their education, their standard of living, your job, your education, wage, standard of living etc are all taken into account when marriage happens. There is no imbalance.

IOportA · 2021-09-29T23:30:25+00:00

it's birth control coupled with waiting a decade to have kids.

TheBookOfSeil · 2021-09-29T22:40:29+00:00

I'd say its more about the spread of feminism and no longer being able to be happy with what you got anymore.

If some catastrophic event in the world happened and we went back to living in the dirt, women would be asking how long it will take for us to invent air conditioners and have electricity and running water again.

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WilliamWyattD · 2021-09-29T22:12:27+00:00

The decline in birth rates goes back a while. It is likely due to many factors, so I doubt that you can pin it all on one thing. Hypergamy, properly considered, probably plays a role in the current culture. It isn't necessarily that there is no way to square hypergamy, a higher birthrate, and female legal/political/economic equality. But we indeed haven't figured out that formula. So given that, hypergamy is indeed contributing to lower birthrates.

abaxeron · 2021-09-30T11:32:13+00:00

and there's really nothing governments can do about it

I investigated exactly this question some time ago in relation to the event called The Russian Cross. Essentially, what happened with fertility in the West throughout the late-20th century, happened in Warsaw Pact nations within five years.

One particularly curious detail that emerged - was that even in the darkest years of total economic collapse, in many regions of former Soviet bloc, rural fertility did not fall below 2. At this very moment, rural fertility in the US is around the level of 1.9. Nowhere near "good enough", but way better than national average.

There was a hypothesis like 10-15 years ago that many animals including humans might have an instinctual mechanism against overpopulation that essentially "nudges" females away from reproducing when they "bump into" too many of their own kind. Like... you know, in an overpopulated office building. Or a public transportation. Or a cinema. Or a metropolitan-area college.

Obviously, since experiments on humans are seriously limited, we have to rely on observations. I bring this fact up because "there's really nothing governments can do about it" is a weak position. For example, IF this hypothesis is correct, it would be enough just to ban erection of houses for living higher than 3 stores. Boom, as old concrete mega-blocks serve out their usefulness, they get demolished and replaced with cozy small houses where the porch/yard dynamic closely resembles what humans used to have around agricultural revolution. Obviously, "the businesses will suffer", "the infrastructure will suffer", "muh jobs", all that stuff, but this is a thought experiment just to demonstrate that the government can do a lot of things, in quite polynomial time, and it might benefit everyone in the long run; obviously, only if the hypothesis is correct.

Freevoulous · 2021-09-30T12:58:52+00:00

I have read a few statistics like that, pretty sure that the problem is only among well-paid, higher educated career women.

Costco-cashier Beckys are not that picky, because there is nothing really to pick. The men available to them, either for a quick fuck or a relationship are all in the same narrow spectrum of average money, looks and fitness. Everyone they know is painfully average, which ironically means that for them the Blue Pill works: if every man in their town is a low income Beta Schlub, the most romantic Schlub wins.

Sure, they can go on Tinder and occasionally get Chad dick, but this is unreliable roulette that they rarely win. Chads are few and far between, and fewer every year due to obesity pandemic. I know that directly from the source, met many Beckys who complained about just exactly that.

vial_of_music · 2021-09-30T14:48:59+00:00

I don’t think this would be correct. I don’t want children for ALL those reasons mentioned above. I would still choose my person to have children with if all of those things are provided. I don’t want to have a child for the sake of having offspring, I want to create a human that’s half of me and my other favorite person and want us to live a life together with a child we created. It would be much easier in other conditions.

And the fact I don’t want pregnancy to do it’s crazies on my body!

WaifuHunterPlus · 2021-09-30T16:49:50+00:00

Hypergamy certainly plays a role in mate selection for women ready to have children as they are seeking a provider for that child. For example, I have never matched with a women on Tinder who might have made more money than me (judging by picture quality and job title) and on international dating sites I get an enormous amount of matches from Asian women from less wealthy countries.

Also, South Korea is very culturally different from America as I don't think you would see a women with 6 kids from 4 different fathers and 3 of whom are in prison in a traditional Asian country.

j_arbuckle2012 · 2021-09-30T17:26:17+00:00

Lack of survival pressure and the invention of birth control and advancement of ibdustrial technology.

In the olden days, you had more kids because some would die of starvation/illness/neglect, almost guaranteed. It was rare for a family to have all their children survive to adulthood. You needed your kids to work the family enterprise or in the sweatshops to bring in enough household cash to survive. Having lots of kids was advantageous - survival pressure. If you liked having sex you would have lots of kids - lack of available or effective birth control.

Fast forward 50 - 100 years and infant mortality is basically 0%. The economy is strong enough that you can reasonably expect to get a good enough job to not put your kids to work. Birth control exists so childbirth is controllable. You have more free time to pursue self-fulfillment because of technology. You can put having children off for longer and longer. Technology can make up the difference where natural biology fails. It's not hard to imagine why birthrates plummet.

Lack of survival pressure, birth control, and technology.

WheelIntelligent1354 · 2021-10-01T05:46:40+00:00

Hypergamy isn't by itself problem. Hypergamy when combined with sexual liberalism and feminism causes a serious problem in women choosing mates, as well as women wanting children(see Japan and workculture).

neetykeeno · 2021-10-01T10:28:08+00:00

We have only had effective and varied contraception methods backed up by accessible abortion for a couple of generations now...we are still in the process of purging the gene pool of those (both male and female) who really don't want kids. Simple as that. A strong desire to have kids is necessary to leaving offspring if people can choose not to.

Eventually birth rates will bounce right up. But not right now. Generations. We will see the recovery first in the populations that were first to afford and allow and support birth control and abortion.

gimpgirl555 · 2021-09-30T04:19:39+00:00

I guess my overall point is that, even if governments fixed housing, maternity, jobs, and whatever else. as long as women are equal to men, their will still be a drop in birth rates due to hypergamy and there's really nothing governments can do about it. Am i right or wrong? if so, why?

Nope. Men control birthrates not women. When I got together with my man he told me "you must give me many sons". There's no shortage of women wanting large families, there's a shortage of men wanting to life the lifestyle.

The other stuff is just a play for gibs. Women are always looking for gibs, that doesn't mean they plan to uphold their end of the agreement.

It comes down to that the establishment wants it both ways, and that's not gonna happen.

Itburns12345 · 2021-09-30T09:07:35+00:00

Logicaly wed need goverments to fix what you pointed out at the end there first then watch birth rates to find out!

modidlee · 2021-09-30T12:07:24+00:00

It’s not true that women don’t need men. Never has been never will be. The difference now is the tasks a husband or boyfriend would do for free women are paying other men for.

Title	is it possible that hypergamy itself plays a role in the drastic drop in birthrate in the developed world?
Author	my_peoples_savior
Upvotes	33
Comments	247
Date	September 29, 2021 10:07 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/py5x1d/is_it_possible_that_hypergamy_itself_plays_a_role/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/is-it-possible-that-hypergamy-itself-plays-a-role.1073490 https://theredarchive.com/post/1073490

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