Red Pill does not work, CMV.

SnooSprouts1580 · 2021-08-18T12:01:17+00:00

As a jacked fitness enthusiast and personal trainer, I have used both "normal" dating advice and TRP dating advice.

Listening to "normal" advice, I took no risks during conversations with women. Stuck 100% to safe, neutral topics to avoid offending or creeping out women. Didn't want to give women the impression that I was just another guy who wanted sex. These conversations were entertaining, numerous, led to increased rapport and revealed a lot of similarities the women and I shared. Despite this, I rarely got dates and when I did, women rejected attempts at physical escalation literally 100% of the time.

Using TRP advice, I have literally had specific women do 180s. They went from disinterested in my "normal" approach, to DTF after implementing TRP. Using a "TRP" approach, I learned how critical it is to display strength and leadership skills when courting a woman. I quickly lead conversations in a bolder, more risqué direction. It surprises me how receptive women are to this and what I'm able to get away with. I went from struggling to get a 1st date, to getting sex BEFORE the 1st date. I've now even had multiple married women invite me out for dates and over for sex.

NockerJoe · 2021-08-18T09:44:54+00:00

I think people really don't understand how much relationship discourse has changed over the last 30ish years, if not longer. Most of the stuff we consider basic now used to be the domain of PUA and other early manosphere circles like it and there wasn't really any other alternative. The entire concept of mainstream websites and social media where men can compare and get "normal" advice outside their immediate social circle or family is fairly new and a lot of it is based on either those initial ideas or reactions to it.

Hell "The Red Pill" as we understand it now isn't its original form. Its this mutated version like 40 iterations down from what some shitposters on 4chan and a bunch of IRC chats were talking about like 15 to 20 years ago. A lot of concepts were tacked on over time and its evolved to deal with changes to the social landscape. That sidebar zoomers love is less the old testament and more the weird shit mormons like.

The actual core of it all is simple: Society has a lot of polite lies and naive young men buy into those lies without context and "the red pill" is them unplugging and dealing with the shitty reality of human nature. Thats why its called The Red Pill. Its like the pills in the matrix. All that shit about Zion and Robots and The One was not in the red pill, that shit comes later.

trueorfalsedmitry · 2021-08-18T15:18:49+00:00

How to CMV:

Show that TRP offers something unique that isn't found in normal dating/self improvement advice.

I have lifted weights my entire life (very late 40's). I have always had a decent haircut, etc. I have always been a "popular" dude. Before I applied TRP concepts, I had a lifetime n-count of 4.

Show me that you can demonstrate an effect of TRP ideology/advice independent of normal dating/self improvement advice nested in TRP (eg lift, approach women).

I now act like a complete asshole around/in front of women. I become a person that I would never want to be around. It works like catnip. I have quintupled my n-count in the last few years using the most noxious components of TRP ideas.

No "it's common sense bro," "look around you" or other weak anecdotal evidence. I have my own anecdotes too. You're not convincing anyone who thinks critically with anecdotes.

Here's the thing: TRP is not scientific at all. It is simply a way to organize knowledge and apply heuristics. Not all of human thought is scientific. History, critical theory, etc. are all well-established and useful ways to organize knowledge and draw conclusions, but are strictly non-scientific.

I get my dick wet using TRP. If I don't do TRP things, I don't.

Barely-moral · 2021-08-18T10:33:04+00:00

The way the message is delivered is as important as the message itself.

Even if you want to say that the only things about TRP that works are common sense shit, the fact that TRP can deliver that common sense shit to people that otherwise can't get the message makes TRP work.

LowCreddit · 2021-08-18T20:35:55+00:00

TRP doesn't work for circus freaks. It also doesn't work if you don't do it. Most incels don't put in the work. At best, they stop being fat and wait for women to jump on their dicks. Most don't even do that. Judging TRP by its failures would be like judging CICO diets on how many people stick with the diet. It's an interesting topic, but it has nothing to do with whether or not CICO works.

I will focus on one aspect that no one else talks about, frame. Frame is a mindset of setting the rules in your space. It is a dominant mindset. Frame is attractive to both men and women, but women desire it sexually. Half the women's comments here outline their lives of terror and insecurity. The other half are childish comments covering up that insecurity with a thin veneer of bluster and derision. If you can offer a pillar of strength and, more importantly, stability, women will flock to you. Frame is how you project that feeling to others around you.

ex_red_black_piller · 2021-08-18T11:27:27+00:00

> TRP does not help you get more relationships

TRP does not advocate LTRs, just casual spinning of plates.

> lift

Something TRP CONSTANTLY pushes.

> ex red pill

I checked it out. Just preachy nonsense, nobody talked about how their sex life improved after abandoning TRP.

> TRP offers advice to men that is empirically associated with poor relationship outcomes

If you subscribe to TRP and are looking for a monogamous LTR, you are stupid.

> Show that TRP offers something unique that isn't found in normal dating/self improvement advice.

The AF/BB concept was something of a revelation that suddenly explained so much for me, that no other self improvement advice did.

Amorality of sexual strategy was another one.

Glarkin42 · 2021-08-18T12:43:05+00:00

Open discussion and analysis of unrestrained female sexuality is useful both on an individual and societal level.

moviecooknl · 2021-08-18T11:21:39+00:00

My personal opinion on the mindset of TRP/MRP is the prospect of unplugging you from the Disney fairy tale of a soul mate or the One and that by just being yourself, just being a Nice Guy (tm) and not embracing your masculine qualities will eventually get you to to date and/or be in a relationship even though there's a huge difference in the practical outcome and what you see happening around you.

TRP/MRP gives you some insight on the reason, but more importantly TRP/MRP gives you tips you can implement on your long road of self-improvement by taking responsibility (of yourself first) and getting your shit in order using several means where lifting, (defending) boundaries, owning your shit, dealing with problems head on, to stand up for yourself, that it's more than okay to say "No" and be selfish at times, not to be conflict averse, to take action, the aspect of Game, to be more confident and assertive, etc, etc to improve yourself, your attractiveness and embracing your masculine qualities in a positive way and in compliance with your morals and values.

Getting (more) sex, (more) dates or the prospect of getting a (better) relationship is a side product, not the end game, and TRP/MRP is not an A-to-Z IKEA manual to follow like some autistic fuck and expect "If I do thing Y and I'll get outcome X".

Yes, unfortunately every philosophy/strategy/idea can be interpreted and put in action in both healthy and unhealthy ways to such an extreme that it or its actions becomes toxic (like embracing Dark Triad, misogynistic behavior, condoning rape, etc) and its up to yourself to filter that stuff out and not go through that rabbit hole or even wander to the more extreme philosophies, ideas, strategies, etc like Dark Triad, MGTOW, Incel, Black Pill, etc.

And Yes: certain aspects that TRP/MRP promotes might be logical or natural for you, me and others while there's probably more than enough guys around our social circle that don't get it and don't see it as logical or can do it natural (for whatever reason) while struggling with answers to questions like: "Why won't they date me?", "Why did my gf/wife leave me?", "Why do I experience a dead bedroom for years?" or "Why am I always passed over for promotions?".

Personally I don't tell my guy friends to visit TRP/MRP based reddits, forums or YT videos but instead to read books like No More Mr. Nice Guy, Models, etc and most of them see improvements within 12 to 24 months on aspects of getting better jobs/positions, able to get dates, improving their relationships, being more confident, etc.

superlurkage · 2021-08-18T14:24:54+00:00

I would say the truth is “red pill does not work on anywhere near as many women as claimed, and why would you want to date the ones that it does work on anyways?”

ToughAnswers · 2021-08-18T14:26:12+00:00

What does work is normal dating or lifestyle advice, such as lift and don't be fat. We can't credit TRP for this.

That right? Diet and exercise advice (move more, eat less, etc) have been flung at people for decades and yet 70% of American adults are overweight or obese.

So, no, I must beg to differ that bland conveyance of advice incites most people to do much of anything.

70%. Pretty disgraceful really. The institutions that have led to this point (were 70% of American adults always overweight or obese? Nope) have failed miserably, and then they whine and BEG for legitimacy when people don't trust them or when people ignore them.

Gravel_Roads · 2021-08-18T09:56:05+00:00

TRP has never been able to demonstrate that any unique Red Pill ideology is responsible for success and that it isn't attributable to run-of-the-mill self help advice mixed with TRP.

It's very rare to have "unique" advice. You, yourself, are admitting that some of the advice in TRP is advice that is useful. You can't say "the useful parts of TRP don't count as TRP because they're useful". TRP still endorses it, and thus has useful features.

I'd say, more accurately, TRP "doesn't work" for people who aren't actually dedicated to self-improvement. But people who are dedicated to self-improvement will find things in TRP to aid them.

TRP is about as neutrally useful as any other religion, or self-help group ect. In that people can benefit from structure (ie TRP's firm stance on "nexting" will benefit men who need a firm structure around walking away... but might be detrimental to the next guy if he's already a selfish asshole who would just use it as an excuse to justify shitty ghosting behavior.)

But making a statement that "TRP NEVER works" is silly. All one has to do is point to the men who have improved from it to disprove it.

abaxeron · 2021-08-18T12:45:29+00:00

Show that TRP offers something unique that isn't found in normal dating/self improvement advice.

TRP tells men that no individual woman actually matters. Every rejection you face (instead of "suffer") is merely an opportunity to choose among ten other, younger, tighter, more enthusiastic potential fuck-buddies. Your comfort, happiness, inner peace, and pleasure as a man are the top priority. A woman matters only for as long as she provides more of these things than she takes or destroys. A relationship where this simple equation is not met does not deserve to exist. If a man finds himself in such relationship, he should abandon it. Preferably, abandon it first.

Not to be empty, I right now went to google to look for mainstream dating advice.

My first Google result that wasn't down due to server issues was the Telegraph article from July 2019. An older one, but it checks out.

"A favourite first-date tip for men is to ask lots of questions. This is particularly good advice if you struggle with shyness. Just remember not to delve too deep too soon – keep the conversation light and easy by focusing on work, hobbies and travel plans."

"Even more important, make sure you listen to your date’s answers, and ask lots of follow-up questions. Make a mental note of significant details (for example, the name of their dog or their favourite food), and mention these things later on to show them you’re interested."

"You want to come across as confident but not arrogant, interested but not nosy, and polite but not old-fashioned. The same balance needs to be struck when it comes to showing romantic interest in your date."

If I had to summarize this advice into three words, it would be "Make her comfortable".

The same paper has "How to meet men" article from 2021. It roughly boils down to seven advices on "how to make yourself comfortable" and zero advices on "how to make him comfortable".

Thus, TRP is different from mainstream dating advice.

brainismia · 2021-08-18T10:56:33+00:00

If you believe that lift and approach is a good method, then you believe that TRP works in it's core ideology : "Nobody wants to get with you as of now, actually go get yourself together instead of believing your mother when she tells you that you are the most pretty boy in the world and one day someone will want to be with you, so just be yourself".

The just be yourself and wait, that is the mainstream dating advice and ideology given to most men by their (mostly female) family members growing up. TRP takes this advice and puts it in the trash, it tells you that to be successfull in relationship is hard for men, and if you want this, you need to work.

Incels, MGTOWs... are those that were not able to put in the work or didn't want to. Instead they chose to put all of their faults/problems on women.

michael1962-01 · 2021-08-18T16:55:04+00:00

TRP is a toolbox.

You claim that a knife is not working

VasiliyZaitzev · 2021-08-18T14:08:09+00:00

What does work is normal dating or lifestyle advice, such as lift and don't be fat.

As opposed to "You can be fit at any weight!" or "Just be yourself!"? TRP would tell you to lift, eat clean and stop being a lard ass.

The belief that "TRP works" relies almost exclusively on anecdotes.

Hold that thought...

We can look at regular people, or communities like exredpill, or incls, to find people who tried TRP and now believe it does not work.

So we can look at "collections of anecdotes", if they are anti-TRP? Blinks

My own life is also a personal anecdote of how TRP is not needed for relationship success.

Again, we're only counting anecdotes that are anti-TRP. Got it.

FWIW, my life is a personal anecdote about how TRP gets you slave girls and threeways. So there's that.

TRP offers advice to men that is empirically associated with poor relationship outcomes, such as encouraging men to be highly promiscuous and/or unfaithful ("spin plates") and to emulate antisocial Dark Triad traits.

Who says maintaining sexual relationships with multiple women is a "bad outcome"?

We also see a pipeline from PUA-TRP to more extreme communities such as MGTOW/incls.

Those guys would exist anyway. Undifferentiated rage do be like that.

This is empirical evidence

Nope.

that TRP does not work for many men.

There are guys it won't work for. But TRP doesn't "promise" that it will work, only that becoming the best (or at least better) version of yourself and learning game will increase your likelihood of success.

They may retain the ideology (misogyny)

Nobody should "hate" women for being women. They should "hate" being lied to.

despite the ideology not having helped them get sex or happy relationships.

TRP doesn't promise you those things. It provides you with a toolkit to maximize your chances.

This may come as a shock, but TRP isn't populated with AlfaChadBroPussySlayer9000s - I've met a couple guys who are "Chads", and maybe there are some out there, but most aren't. I'm certainly not - sure, I was a college athlete and in a house, and always had a girlfriend if I wanted one, but after one gets past my height (and the short guys are right, it makes a big difference) I'm fairly average, maybe, looks-wise. It's populated with guys who are mostly in the middle (with some "no hopers") who are usually smarter than average (i.e. aren't "just smart enough to run the machines, take what they are given and not ask too many questions,") who are trying to figure out why the BS they've been fed their whole lives isn't getting them anywhere.

How to CMV:

LOL. I do not believe you are even remotely open to changing your mind. But I will leave you with this: Men, particularly young men, adapt to what gets them "Teh Sex." If being a beta "nice boy" got men sex then TRP would be all about "How to hold your gf's purse at the mall" or "How to French braid your gf's hair." It doesn't, so TRP is not.

ThrowAwayBro737 · 2021-08-18T10:11:14+00:00

TRP does not help get you more sexual partners.

This is where you’re wrong. Understanding sexual dynamics is the key for fulfilling what women are looking for and allows you to navigate the sexual marketplace. Even the fact that we are competing in a sexual marketplace was originally an RP idea that is more mainstream now, but was an anathema just 20 years ago.

I think you’re confused because RP works best when you’ve already got a bunch of other (mostly genetic) traits in your favor. If you’re a top 20% guy (looks, game, and money), the RP can lead to god-like success. If you’re in the middle 60%, RP can help you navigate LTRs and avoid beta pitfalls. If you’re in the bottom 20%, embrace MGTOW or the black pill. Or, work on yourself and potentially move to the middle 60% - and then apply RP philosophy.

luliloo · 2021-08-18T17:27:17+00:00

TRP helped me get a HVM and changed a lot of my thinking such as:

What I should be looking for in a man
What men are looking for in women
How to make men happy
When to break my rules for a man
Why I was unsatisfied in previous relationships
What kind of relationship I want
How rare HVM are

Kaisha001 · 2021-08-18T17:54:27+00:00

After years as a bouncer watching the human mating ritual play out, over and over and over again, you start to see patterns.

I don't need to know how weather works, to notice that when dark clouds roll in, it's probably going to rain.

TRP matches (for the most part) with what I saw/observed/experienced. I don't consider myself 'TRP' because I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Aldabruzzo · 2021-08-18T22:08:11+00:00

Your CMV is wrong from its very first principles. You demand that TRP fit into the round hole you fashioned, demand your illegitimate "view" be "challenged" in only the ways you set out, and then declare "victory".

You've shit the bed on this by claiming TRP doesn't work because it doesn't get men "better relationships". It's not intended to because it's not a "relationship strategy". TRP is sexual strategy.

TRP is about men maximizing their own power over their own lives. TRP is about men getting what they want out of their own lives, and a big part of what men want is sex - the sex men want, on men's terms.

What they want might be a sexual relationship. It might be better sex in that relationship. It might be casual sex. It might be cheating sex. It might be pump and dumps. It might be no sex. It might even be keeping women away.

It might be as simple as understanding women better.

All of this is for the purpose of men getting what THEY want. Not what women want from men. Not what others think they should want. Not what YOU think they should want. No, it's about what men want, for themselves.

Your view is illegitimate and wrong because you erroneously presume that TRP exists solely and only to teach men how to "get relationships" with women.

TRP is about what men want, and helping men get what they want, and that's sex.

max_peenor · 2021-08-18T22:34:16+00:00

relationship success relationship outcomes

Arbitrary criterion. You can make this argument work as long as you can fiddle those two little variables to your hearts content. And likewise TRP readers can make their own arguments work the same way. The question is if TRP works for your actual goals--specific and measurable. If you seem to think you have met your goals and thus TRP is unnecessary, cool--but I have no idea what your goals are. Perhaps it was living as a plowhorse for an obese, angry war-pig wife. I'd have to nope out of that.

wtknight · 2021-08-18T12:23:41+00:00

TRP offers advice to men that is empirically associated with poor relationship outcomes

I think that TRP is poor for long-term relationship advice. I do think that it might help in attracting low self-esteem women for casual sex, though. Any evidence is likely going to be anecdotal by default, but I do think that there are studies out there that show that dark triad traits, which TRP tried to cultivate and is unique to the ideology, do tend to attract some women, and that men who have these traits have more short-term sexual relations.

TheSunshineMan · 2021-08-18T18:32:43+00:00

The ones who say TRP/Red Pill strategies don't work are ALWAYS the ones who don't follow the advice.

betabucks666 · 2021-08-18T10:13:17+00:00

Also, a lot of the red pill is common sense. There's no special pill to take or secret strategies and methods. You've made it something much more in your head it seems. The work is the work.

So what information in the red pill exactly doesn't work or is incorrect?

xFallacyx69 · 2021-08-18T12:06:20+00:00

Not being nice gets you laid. Every chick here refutes this… but as a guy that is rarely “nice” to a chick I haven’t already vetted… it turns them off to be nice because that’s literally every thirsty dudes play.
See #1
I mean TRP is literally the anti thesis of blue pill. And blue pill advice is literally the common go to advice for relationships. Using mainstream bloop advice, the US has gotten to a place where guys see marriage as the end of their sex life, and women see it as a reduction of endless attention from thirsty dudes.
Continued: People are miserable in a higher percentage of marriages than in the past, and divorce rates are sky high. That literally means the common sense advice is not working. Whether you call it red pill or not being a doormat when you’re wife/GF starts withholding sex for reasons is up to you. Blue pill says go to marriage/relationship counseling, but more flowers, write more poems, blah blah blah… red pill says women fuck who they’re sexually attracted to and if she’s not fucking you she doesn’t give a shit about you. I tend to be a more linear thinker so I go with red pill advice now and it works way better. Besides, she won’t be asking that coworker she blows at the Christmas party for more flowers or more poems/ chocolates because she knows he isn’t a pushover, and would boot her ass immediately if she wasn’t banging him.

passepar2t · 2021-08-18T10:50:46+00:00

I don't know about y'all but it's worked for me. Your "it does not work hurr" is unfalsifiable.

AreOut · 2021-08-18T11:29:03+00:00

It does work. There are too many of us who can personally confirm that.

LeJacquelope · 2021-08-18T11:48:20+00:00

TRP works with shitty, mentally broken women. Not women with their heads on straight.

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SylvestorTalone · 2021-08-18T14:49:30+00:00

The Red Pill and PUA is not the same thing, there's definitely a lot of overlap, but you can't treat them as interchangable. In terms of does it work, in my view there will always be a huge difference between the number of peple who encounter and intellectually accept any sort of self-help advice, and the number who effectively implement it. The former requires so much less effort than the latter, in virtually every case, that this is inevitable. Are a lot of Red Pill guys full of shit? Of course, a large number of everyone is full of shit, and how much action they're getting is one of the things that men are most likely to front about in my experience, be they red pill or blue pill.

That said, you are also being disingenuous about how dreadful is the blue pill line on relationships. I know you're just going to ask for peer reviewed scientific evidence of the kind that we both know cannot possibly exist on this topic, but it remains obviously the case. The exact same ''women are wonderful'' bias that results in vastly more lenient prison sentences, and results in charities focusing on female specific causes or diseases receiving vastly more funding, and effects basically everything in society, also produces a large amount of society wide dissembling, and even open gaslighting, about female sexual behaviour. This is both in terms of how shallow they are, and in terms of the predatory sub-strategies that they often employ. The blue pill delusion of just be a gentleman, the only evil you'll find in a relationship with a woman is what you bring with you, will get you ripped to pieces out there.

SaBahRub · 2021-08-18T16:02:26+00:00

Red pill works

Just not for everyone and on everyone, which is what they claim

Shirts_Pants · 2021-08-18T16:02:31+00:00

It's not so much that RP's views are inherently unique but more that it was one of the primary movements for opening men's eyes to show (or remind) them in package form what actually works, that is...increasing status or at least perceived status, social and emotional intelligence - again, real or faked, the importance of preselection as well as lifting and looks and dress. Unfortunately there are/were quite a few clueless men who actually felt all this was truly brilliant and revelatory.

None of these are technically original from RP but they counterbalance what men grow up hearing in what many would call a blue-pilled mainstream environment that simply tells men to be responsible, loyal, and caring - and furthermore, if you aren't doing well with women, you are not responsible, loyal, or caring enough. This being said, I'll happily also say there is a shit-ton of garbage and toxicity that comes along with the good in RP circles, which is where discretion comes in.

heyitsjeape · 2021-08-18T16:18:43+00:00

I’m skeptical of anyone who claims they know what will work for any particular person. Nothing has worked for me and I have no idea why. I don’t think people without success in this arena often truly know the reason.

EstablishmentKooky50 · 2021-08-18T16:25:54+00:00

Red Pill is not intended to "work". It's a praxeology not a behavioral advice.

Red Pill is either applicable/accurate or not. Like any praxeologies it has it's good and bad sides. Some things are accurate, some things are less or not accurate. I'd argue that RP is more accurate then anything we have so far.

It is a myth that it relies solely on anecdotal evidence, and if one ever reads the Rational Male by Rollo Tomassi or the Book of Numbers Aaron Clarey, one can see that it's based on research and facts.

You can not disregard anecdotal evidence either though. One type of which is "my friend's fried's girlfriend's friend said xyz" which is likely to be false, while there is an other type, that is direct experience whuch is far more accurate.

When you find a praxeology that correlates with the overwhelming numbers of second type anecdotal evidence, you have something that is probably more accurate then false.

People who understand what RP is, and know how to aplly the knowledge, will be more successful then those who misinterpret the data and blame the theory or anything but themselves for their own failure.

Whisper · 2021-08-18T19:07:04+00:00

TRP has never been able to demonstrate that any unique Red Pill ideology is responsible for success

There is no unique redpill ideology, therefore it cannot be responsible for anything, and the way that you expect it to is kind of odd.

couldbemage · 2021-08-19T10:29:03+00:00

This OP is full of info about how bad TRP is, with links! But no dating advice. No links to dating advice. Just standard, those guys are bad schtick, followed by silence.

Exactly what this guy points out:

https://youtu.be/be_Ms3nVG10

RP and PUA work. Worked for that guy. Yeah, it's attached to a bunch of fucked up nonsense, but for utterly clueless guys, those are the only sources for answers. Except, you know, the guy in the video. A reformed PUA, telling guys to use the basic functional bits without the woman hating crap.

How to escalate, what to look for, how to act, how to maintain attraction, how to retain control of your life. It's all in there. Dial down the hyperbole, translate the nasty into more pc language, ignore the semipolitical frosting, and there's something useful there.

LePengwino · 2021-08-19T23:30:21+00:00

Apparently it works for some, if you believe the fields reports and anecdotes. Considering what I know about TRP, it'd be better if they weren't true.

Stuff like spinning plates, 'enjoying the decline', etc. would foment pockets of chaos in social spheres. It's an 'all bets are off' strategy, isn't it?

Suitable-Law-6763 · 2021-08-20T00:51:39+00:00

I've noticed the posts of this user are almost always being downvoted (rightly so) except it's a scientific study. I wish the mods could do something about this.

Title	Red Pill does not work, CMV.
Author	AntifaSuperSwoledier
Upvotes	0
Comments	230
Date	August 18, 2021 9:24 AM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/p6notv/red_pill_does_not_work_cmv/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/red-pill-does-not-work-cmv.1058115 https://theredarchive.com/post/1058115

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