Will manosphereans admit that toxic masculinity exists if we accept that it's partially caused by male biology?

aypi98 · 2019-08-12T14:35:37+00:00

Men bad bad bad bad

CainPrice · 2019-08-12T15:02:23+00:00

Masculinity isn't the issue. Lack of masculinity is the issue.

Men who kill themselves, men whose women leave them, men who get used up by society/others - these aren't masculine men. These are non-masculine men.

And the reason their lives sucked ass wasn't because they were concerned with word definitions and whether or not they met the current accepted definition of masculinity.

Their lives sucked ass because they lacked social skills, woman-handling skills, and healthy boundaries.

Lack of masculinity is unhealthy to men. Feminized society is toxic to men because it teaches men that masculinity is bad out one side of its mouth, while rewarding masculine men with friends, sex, and professional success out the other side of its mouth. Then, when the non-masculine men complain, we declare them toxic and pretend that the source of their disappointment isn't their lack of friends, sex, or success, but is just due to a word definition. They're all upset because based on word definitions, they're not real men, so we just need to do away with the idea of masculinity and they'll be just fine. The lack of friends and sex and success won't bother them any more as long as we redefine words so that they still count as real men.

pnadlerlaw · 2019-08-12T15:55:22+00:00

Women: “If a man doesn’t get jealous when other men show interest in you, then that means he doesn’t really love you.”

Also women: “I don’t like guys who are controlling. I prefer men who just learn to be jealous and sit there quietly suffering.”

Also women: “As Justice Ginsburg said in Gonzales v. Carhart, the right to abortion under the Fourteenth Amendment is based on every person having the right to determine her own life’s course. So if a girl is not yet ready to be a mother, the government should not force her to. That’s what liberty and privacy mean.”

Also women: “But that doesn’t apply to men. If you a baby daddy, then you a baby daddy. Better stop making up excuses about you going to school and shit and start sending over those child support checks, boo boo.”

In conclusion:

Will womanspheres admit that toxic femininity exists if we (men) accept that it’s partially caused by women being cunts?

analt223 · 2019-08-12T13:16:36+00:00

Everything that is "toxic masculinity" is just women complaining when it doesnt benefit them.

2019-08-12T16:10:49+00:00

The biggest contention between manospherians and some groups I wish not to name is how the latter use and define "toxic masculinity".

The first reason is more about the definition. Manospherians believe that men have traits common to the sex, like how women have traits common to their sex. However Manospherians have a problem with saying "masculinity is toxic". without a equivalence. We know there is some of our traits which MAY (emphasis on MAY) lead to problems, but so is any trait. Including being a woman. Example:

a)by male isolation which is a result of men being less social, less communicative than women, b) by men refusing to visit professionals because of the male ideal of self-reliance.

Think about it, the reason so many women are toxic is exactly because they are more communicative and social than men and because they are not self-reliant. Thus one can only access that or femininity and masculinity are toxic, or none of the above.

The second reason is more about the empirical data. A trait of a group is generally a trait shared by all (or almost all) persons in the group, or so it to be expected. Otherwise it is a erroneous presumption and prejudice (like how people say Irish are drunkards, when most of the population isn't). However some groups put crimes as traits of masculinity, like violence or rape, even when most men will not be violent, or rape-y, Less than a percent of men are like that.

Yes, Men being more aggressive is a trait of masculinity which may lead to criminality however masculinity does not equal being criminals, not by far. This is pure exaggeration lead by a fallacious argument.

The third reason is more about the logic. The same traits some groups consider "toxic masculinity" are inherent traits of men, and are not toxic at all and on the opposite are traits needed for a better life for the said man.

Consider the trait, aggressiveness. It is needed in order to obtain all 5 of the major sexual attraction factors for a man (wealth, status, power, appearance and masculinity) Thus is extremely useful to obtain sex a thing most men want. It is also not toxic as an aggressive men attract partners and scares enemies, making things safer for the said man. Nor we can turn it off or change it by socialization alone.

We have a law system in place in order to deal with those which pass their limits, but to say all of the trait is toxic and to fight our nature just because it CAN be a problem is not only counter productive but creates unhappiness in our society. Think of the economic, sexual and relationship market places, They suffer from the lack of masculine traits, to say to finish the rest we have is extremely counterproductive.

The last one is moral. Some groups attack men for being men. They didn't do anything, they are born that way, this is not different than attacking a Native American like myself because of my skin color. I had no option or say, nor I am guaranteed to commit anything. Or you consider both are correct or that both are not. You cannot be hypocritical about that. (that is also why so many of the manospherians consider such groups the real nazis)

EDIT: If you wanna end this, just follow a redditor example here and call it MACHOISM or something instead of toxic masculinity, as to say that is to end all conversations in fallacies with some of the ideologs we have to share a society.

vosidit98 · 2019-08-12T11:08:20+00:00

Toxic masculinity exists because women unwillingly encourage it.

The number of men exhibiting toxic masculinity is at an all time low.

Yet women, especially influential women, date and have sex with men displaying toxic traits. So they really only incentivize men to ape and adopt these traits.

Another class of people who act toxically masculine are criminals. But social norms alone cannot make them dusappear 100% from society.

AreOut · 2019-08-12T10:46:45+00:00

toxic for whom? Most women (even feminists) still prefer masculine guys. Even for LTRs not just ONS.

FlyingResearcher · 2019-08-12T12:57:25+00:00

Maybe if you admit that it's also caused by male disenfranchisement and the fact that men usually have much more difficult lives than women. Most men who commit suicide for example do so after things like losing their job or winding up homeless, which are situations that effect men much more negatively than women, regardless of how it is handled emotionally (a man can't marry his way into a good life, a man has to build said life, and then share it with a woman).

When you have people like the Mayor of Seattle trying to end female homeless, when most of the homeless are men, I think it showes just how much harder it is for a man who winds up in that situation, even before you start talking about toxic masculinity.

Also there is plenty of data showing that men are discriminated against in the criminal court system, and factual evidence shows that men really are discriminated against when it comes to custody decisions (see: exhibit a, exhibit b).

The basic laws concerning child custody should be 50 / 50 parenting with no child support, unless one parent actively backs out. Men should also be given equal choice to be a father so long as women have this right too. That would be a fair system, and until we have some kind of reform addressing some of these issues, I can factually claim that men are actively discriminated against both legally and socially when it comes to many of the issues that you brought up.

See for more examples:

https://www.reddit.com/r/rbomi/wiki/main

wtffellification · 2019-08-12T11:27:20+00:00

I would like to say "only if you admit there is such a thing as toxic femininity" but then I would be playing this stupid game by your stupid terms

angels-fan · 2019-08-12T15:28:10+00:00

The problem I see is feminists can never give an example of positive masculinity.

Any attempt at positive male traits gets "WoMeN cAn Be LeAdErS tOo!!"

You can't talk about toxic unless you have a baseline to compare it to.

So..... Can you give up a comprehensive list of positive masculinity?

theiamsamurai · 2019-08-12T11:28:11+00:00

Unless a woman is willing to fuck undesirable men who other women don't wanna fuck, she should not say how men should and shouldn't act.

poppy_blu · 2019-08-12T11:36:47+00:00

You have to understand the psychology of lazy victim blaming you’re dealing with. They want to believe the reason they aren’t doing well with women is because society is anti male and as such prevents them from being masculine by supposedly punishing masculine men (despite all evidence to the contrary). It’s “society's” fault they are failures because “society hates men.” Otherwise they’d have to admit the onus is on them to do the work to change, and we all know that ain’t happening.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2019-08-12T16:24:19+00:00

also, what "we" is going to accept that "toxic masculinity" is "biological"?

the recognition of biological sex differences destroys the worldview that SPAWNS and promotes the concept of "toxic masculinity" which is predicated on the idea that it is SOCIALLY constructed and upheld by the "patriarchal system" that can be fundamentally altered and destroyed, taking "Toxic masculinity " with it

by claiming sex differences are biological you end the project of modern feminisms entirely.

diffdedbed · 2019-08-12T16:33:18+00:00

Toxic masculinity... buzz word with no consistent definition and used to describe as number of traits which are very important to humanities advancement such as male competitiveness.

decoy88 · 2019-08-12T10:58:02+00:00

They will never accept a term when the sound of it hurts their feefees

sadomasochrist · 2019-08-12T13:03:37+00:00

Point b is the only valid description I've ever seen and men don't care about it being called toxic. Point A is bullshit and not a gender issue.

Any other examples or is it literally just not going to the doctor?

2019-08-12T15:57:38+00:00

What should we do to make manosphereans see the light on these issues?

LOL it's hard to call the behaviors that maximize getting your dick wet "toxic".

You see, men are (by and large hashtag namalt) dick-wetness-maximization machines, and if these behaviors did not in the aggregate maximize dickwetness, they would disappear overnight

Tell women to reward different behaviors with dickwetting and then you might see change.

HellenicLady · 2019-08-12T11:34:30+00:00

Define toxic masculinity and give examples. And then I'll answer.

ZoroasterFlame · 2019-08-12T14:24:13+00:00

Do you admit that toxic femininity exists?

Zippo-Cat · 2019-08-12T14:42:47+00:00

What will it take for manosphereans to admit that many of men's problems are actually caused by masculinity?

Even if we accept this absurd claim, what is your solution?

Should we just "get rid of masculinity"?

How would you go about doing this? Mandatory androgen blockers for all males from age of puberty until they die?

UTC24 · 2019-08-12T15:58:25+00:00

Masculinity only becomes a problem when it no longer serves the needs of female imperatives. I don't see women screaming toxic masculinity when men were sent to fight Hitler. On the contrary you see toxic femininity at full display when French women courting the enemy.

incelicious · 2019-08-12T19:14:24+00:00

What will it take for manosphereans to admit that many of men's problems are actually caused by masculinity?

What will it take for feminists to admit that men do not exist in a void but instead adapt to female sexual selection, which seems to favor toxic behavior like Dark Triad personalities and bullies? “Toxic masculinity” (more like male competition for mates) is every bit the fault of women as it is the fault of men. If women stopped fawning over bullies and dark triad personality types, “toxic masculinity” would disappear overnight.

This is a delicate ecosystem. Male aggression varies to meet the demands placed on men by women in order to score a mate. The opposite is also true. Shitty female behavior would disappear if it weren’t for thirsty jackasses giving such behavior the time of day.

zayelion · 2019-08-12T19:50:08+00:00

What will it take for manosphereans to admit that many of men's problems are actually caused by masculinity

This mentally registers as "if only everyone was a girl". If not masculinity then what do men aspire to? Femininity? This rings of nonsense but I'll bait because there is a lesson to both genders here.

Toxicity, its not genetic, its memetic.

Female perspective of masculinity taught to boys in modern western culture is toxic. Positive masculinity is a male to male transfer primarily. The current state of suicidal abusive incel is due to poor parenting on both males and females. It is a like a chain of inheritance. War, famine, untimely death and broken families cause this breakage.

Mothers can only convey to their children the actions that child's father took, and her understanding of why he did what he did. Not the actual reason he did what he did, the logical foundations for those behaviors, only how she perceived them. This creates self loathing men, and men fearful of displeasing women. When displeasing women on purpose for the group benefit is an active part of masculinity. It is the only way to prove ability and commitment to a woman to protect her, even from herself. The mechanisms for this process are well explained in the book "No More Mr Nice Guy."

We need culture that explains positive masculinity to children, not that men leave, men can not be trusted, men can not be relied on, men are violent, fear and hate men. The love obey and help mom motif makes for the "momma's boy" problem, by the time a man is 21 he should be able to be stern with his mom about his life decisions. If you have that strength the sucidal feelings are going

TL;DR
BOYS NEED THEIR FATHERS

I-eat-ur-vagina · 2019-08-12T11:17:39+00:00

The problem is too few die nowadays. In the ancient times you would join the phalanx with your fellow toxic males and defend your city in front of the gates.

While protecting your family, and it would cost your life. This is the natural way of life. But today we dont have any phalanxes anymore, too many toxic men survive and live which throws off the balance.

Instead of fulfilling their tasks and their fate, toxic males loiter around with no purpose anymore. Instead of seeking to create their own immortality in song and legend, toxic males resort to the red pill.

webernicke · 2019-08-12T13:31:51+00:00

What will it take for manosphereans to admit that many of men's problems are actually caused by masculinity?

Feminists admitting that many of women's problems are caused by femininity, for starters.

Wallstreet3 · 2019-08-12T14:19:29+00:00

Toxic Masculinity is any sort of Masculinity a woman disagrees with. Absolutely nothing more. A man does not need to apologize for being strong-willed or weak, emotional or stoic. And he need not ask a bitch's permission.

pngmafia97 · 2019-08-12T16:09:56+00:00

This reminds me of something.

I recently asked PPD in a comment thread what normies are obligated to do about incels. Many replies were to simply be sympathetic. Don’t treat them or think of ugly sexless people as lower class humans.

While women are certainly guilty of mocking the sexless, frankly it seems that men are more frequently guilty of making fun of their own kind. A big part of toxic masculinity is the lack of unity and cohesion amongst men. The most misogynistic of men are actually made to be so bitter and detached from society because OF men, not just women refusing to have sex with them.

GhostofB · 2019-08-12T10:41:26+00:00

I will accept things when evidence is presented that proves them. Low effort claims don't illicit consideration.

Like this one for example:

Will manosphereans accept that the reason why women get custody in most cases is that women are much more involved in parenting in 90% of the cases?

Where does the 90% figure come from? If you plucked this number out of thin air, why should anyone accept it or take it seriously?

jax006 · 2019-08-12T12:25:49+00:00

It is due to male biology in the same proportion as it is to female biology. Probably the biggest driving factor in the evolution of male behavior is the goal to attract women. I would probably say the majority of "masculine behaviors" are behaviors evolved to compete for women's attention.

And what makes this whole thing especially irritating is that various "toxically masculine" behaviors are still rewarded with attention from women today.

ifelsedowhile · 2019-08-12T12:35:22+00:00

I would admit it exists if we accept that it's partially caused by female biology as well since women reward many traits that fall into that notion.

Seroriman · 2019-08-12T14:17:02+00:00

Getting people psychological help to prevent suicide is often just treating symptoms - severe, literally life-threatening symptoms but symptoms. Given how suicide is usually committed by people who either suffer a traumatic event (divorce may very well be just that given how ruthless and utterly brutal the US family courts are) OR feel like their situation is unbearable and terrible (which is the case with very unsuccessful men, among them incels)...

I think the increase in suicide has a lot to do with underlying causes, and better treatment of the symptoms doesn't address these. What's more is that the entire "toxic masculinity" screed actually is another contributing factor to the death of men who don't find their way in life. The vast majority of men who even listen to complaints about toxic masculinity aren't even the problem, and the "toxic males" don't listen.

MasonMan1234 · 2019-08-12T14:18:34+00:00

Will feminists admit that toxic femininity exists if we accept that it's partially caused by female biology?

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Pontifex_Lucious-II · 2019-08-12T19:35:26+00:00

Civilization calls biology masculinity “toxic”. This doesn’t mean the value judgment is correct.

Talkytalktalk · 2019-08-12T20:02:50+00:00

its all framing. courage, resolve, action and strength are all good, unless you seek to dominate the couragous, resolute, active and strong.

MisterJose · 2019-08-13T02:25:07+00:00

Toxic masculinity is the hyper-agressive guys sitting in a prison cell right now. But are those the men women are complaining about when it comes to 'toxic masculinity'? Not usually. In fact, many of those guys probably didn't have any trouble attracting interested woman before they went to jail.

The 'toxic' guys women complain about the ones that have nothing to do with that. Almost always, you can trace this kind of 'toxic' behavior to an element of sensitivity, not lack of sensitivity. That dude making a show of being an ass to you is often saying, "I don't give a shit anymore, you can't hurt me more than you already have."

So in short, yes, is exists, but it doesn't have anything at all to do with what women were complaining about when they coined the term in the first place, so it's really not a useful term to use.

LeJacquelope · 2019-08-13T03:49:38+00:00

Fucking hell no because it is caused largely by hypergamy.

Melthengylf · 2019-08-13T09:31:04+00:00

Look, I agree with the issue of toxic masculinity and all that. The problem is that feminists mock men when they tell the issues that hurt them all the time. And in menslib subreddit, what they want to talk about what hurts them, they ban them.

So the result is that most men do not trust the people who tell them "if you open up you'll get help", with one hand, but on the other hand they are deeply unempathetic.

IRL it works. I have opened up, and many men and women, including feminists have helped me a lot. But not all men are surrounded with people that will care an inch of their pain.

You don't get to talk about "toxic masculinity" without understanding that in men's life people usually do not care about you and want to hurt you. And this is not a paranoid bs. It is the water men live in.

Do feminists want to stop toxic masculinity? Then they should stop enforcing it. Men do not trust you to be sincere. Gillette add was a disaster, constantly shaming men, when the issue of shame is precisely the cause of men's violence.

And I constantly see these things. I shake my head and think to myself "come on, stop being hypocrites, you are making masculine illnesses worse".

Manospherians do not say "toxic masculinity is about shaming men to become into women" just because, they say it because they constantly notice the phrase is used as a weapon of shame, not as an offering hand of empathy.

Talkytalktalk · 2019-08-13T19:54:51+00:00

there is everyday violence in the hood. af traits matter more.

Bntt89 · 2019-08-14T22:06:25+00:00

I appreciate that you care, but tbh I think for alot of men, it's just that they dont want to hear it from women or feminist. It probably because we get told all the time that we are bad, we are dogs, we only think with our dicks, we contribute to the patriarchy, or in extreme cases that we are rapist. So when they hear toxic masculinity they assume that all masculinity is bad because they've been being told that men are just evil again. So ya I dont think this takes away from anything you say but it's rather the way you approach it is important.

czerdec · 2019-08-18T10:59:08+00:00

If you are Hellenic, there's a tiny chance you know about logos and episteme.

If you want me to admit anything exists, you have to couch the proposition of the human male's greatest contribution to the universe: logical cognition in a conscious biological form.

You must propose the epistemological basis on which your notion of "toxic masculinity" is to be tested. You must provide conditions and tests which your hypothesis must meet in the real world to be spared rejection.

You must accept that when the notion of toxic masculinity fails to satisfy these tests, it must go into the garbage, like other garbage ideas that don't work.

If you claim that your idea of toxic masculinity can never be falsified, regardless of what the data says, then you have condemned toxic masculinity to rejection, because only ideas which can be falsified can ever be tested.

strangelovesglasses · 2019-08-12T10:51:00+00:00

I don't think that changes much. Just because something is genetic, it doesn't mean it cannot be minimized by socialization

people with higher testosterone levels or estrogen levels will act certain ways or feel certain ways, you're right it doesn't determine their destiny as a person but it as a huge affect on it. a lot of toxic masculine behavior is caused by testosterone. it seems to me that people have an easier time accepting levels of biological determinism below the neck, but when it gets to above the neck everything changes.

FairlyNaive · 2019-08-12T12:35:53+00:00

> Will manosphereans accept that things like male suicide are primarily caused: a)by male isolation which is a result of men being less social, less communicative than women, b) by men refusing to visit professionals because of the male ideal of self-reliance.

How did you come to such conclusions?

> women are much more involved in parenting in 90% of the cases?

probably true, but the guys fighting for custody likely the ones actually involved in their kids lives.

> Will manosphereans accept that male disposability is primarily caused by the male ideal that they should be the "protectors of society"?

No. Just No. Men are born without inherent value regardless of any culturall idels.

> many of men's problems are actually caused by masculinity

It definately causes some problems, but it solves more, ot it the very least those that are the most important. Some parts of it can surely be erased in order to benefit men (women and children first attitudes), but they are usually not the ones described as "toxic masculinity". Competetiveness, self reliance, stoicism are absolutely essential to mens well beeing.

TheJim66 · 2019-08-12T14:36:27+00:00

Male suicide is higher because men's lives are much harder AND because men that fail ,fail alone.Mens lives have a higher ceiling and a much lower floor compared to women's.Also I bet me left hand that an overwhelming percentage of people that kill themselves are sexless and alone.

What you people call toxic masculinity is an intrinsic part of what makes men strong and what allowed them to build society.You can't have risk taking ,bravery,ambition without having aggression, competitiveness and recklessness.What causes the good causes the bad.

And of course what you call toxic masculinity is what women select for when choosing a mate .So the moment women stop choosing for it ,men will simply adapt.But until then no whining please :P

sadomasochrist · 2019-08-12T15:11:37+00:00

Jesus I had no idea MRA was THAT bad. I knew there was overlap...

Will manosphereans admit that toxic masculinity exists if we accept that it's partially caused by male biology?

Comments

3. Discrimination in divorce/family courts

Title	Will manosphereans admit that toxic masculinity exists if we accept that it's partially caused by male biology?
Author	HellenicLady
Upvotes	0
Comments	418
Date	August 12, 2019 10:32 AM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/cpaks3/will_manosphereans_admit_that_toxic_masculinity/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/will-manosphereans-admit-that-toxic-masculinity.254486 https://theredarchive.com/post/254486