As a feminist what can i do to support men’s rights without diminishing those of women?

Cultural_Ad_7107 · 2024-04-11T04:38:35+00:00

Don't portray masculinity or men in a demeaning or demonizing manner.

Skydiddy777 · 2024-04-11T06:15:43+00:00

Supporting men's rights doesn't hurt women

Reasonable_Trash3764 · 2024-04-11T04:38:51+00:00

condem female child predators, too often they get a slap on the wrist

MozartFan5 · 2024-04-11T05:34:16+00:00

Why do you imply that supporting men risks hurting women?

Current_Finding_4066 · 2024-04-11T05:34:51+00:00

Are you against promoting womens rights if they diminish mens rights? Ask yourself why.

If you are actually about equality, then you should not have no problem fighting for mens rights in cases where women are privileged and balance needs to be restored.

So, in short, support real equality. Check facts, recheck things you think are true.

WannabeLeagueBowler · 2024-04-11T04:08:46+00:00

Don't circumcise, and tell all your friends not to do it either.

previously_gifted_ · 2024-04-11T08:05:56+00:00

refuse double standards that benefit women in the detriment of men. "my body my choice" for women, but it's okay to legalise circumcision without consentment. It's ok to baby trap a man, so he doesn't have the right to choose or refuse his paternity ? Our body not our choice
stop considering that mens rights are a danger for women and women rights
accept that women have privileges, and that they never ever question them
work out your empathy, society and women have no empathy for men
If a society doesn't benefit men more than women, well then where is the patriarchy ? It's fake myth that doesn't exist
We are guilty until proven innocent, as soon as you will understand and assimilate this, you will understand our issues and struggles better

And thanks a lot for your openmindedness and trying to question yourself and the mainstream propaganda. I consider you to be an intelligent person.

Tiny_Professional358 · 2024-04-11T06:43:42+00:00

Easy:

Call out radicalized feminists.

Show that men can be both victims of DV and SA as well.

Point out that the vast majority of men are not evil monsters out to hurt women.

Admit misandry exists and that it’s just as bad a misogyny.

Get the feminist movement to advocate for real equality and not just man hate.

Admit there’s no such thing as a patriarchy.

Admit there’s no such thing as a gender wage gap.

Point out that first world countries don’t live in a grape culture.

Street_Conflict_9008 · 2024-04-11T06:01:33+00:00

Let's look at things both have in common.

They both have people hurt and disillusioned looking for a sense of community.

Feminism has a much more evolved framework to help females have been hurt.

Men's Rights is in its infancy in this regard. It is important that structures are put in place to help men who are also hurt. (There are benefits to women with these structures put in place to help men. It is a downstream effect, not a direct effect)

Differences are a big one here, intersectional theory vs socio-economics. Both are focused on helping those who are disadvantaged, but there are serious flaws in intersectional theory that are both biased and focuses on victimhood.

Remember, many people who join are seeking community because they have been hurt!

Unfortunately a large percentage of feminist want to shut down spaces where guys have been hurt can seek help or to vent. It is not a zero sum game!

Reasonable_Trash3764 · 2024-04-11T04:34:18+00:00

You can start supporting men’s rights by admitting that women are far more privileged than men in today’s western society, and then taking that discussion to feminist subs. Because men’s right activists gets banned from sub reddits just for following this page. (Might happen to you too after this post unfortunately).

Electronic-Split-635 · 2024-04-11T07:16:19+00:00

This feels like bad faith. Why are you presupposing that supporting men hurts women? What a bizarre way to approach the subject.

If your mindset is seeing helping men as necessarily risking hurting women then I don’t think there is anything you can do. That mindset needs to be banished before any thing else.

Your hands will be continually tied when it comes to offering support if you view each instance of such as harmful to women.

It’s a falsehood. There are tons of areas of men’s rights that don’t even concern women at all. But the fact that’s your starting position isn’t a great start.

You can’t help men or support them if you play into the lazy narrative that helping men “takes away from women”.

GhostWCoffee · 2024-04-11T07:15:15+00:00

This is the thing. You don't actually diminish women's rights by supporting men's rights. It's a huge misconception. Except if you things say "men should get priority for XYZ". Actually view women and men as equals and act accordingly. Understand that most MRA's support women's rights as well, as they should.

Overfed_Venison · 2024-04-11T07:44:22+00:00

So like, there's a lot of reactions here. And there are a lot of people who are angry at feminism in general.

There's a lot of history to that. People will cite the historical opposition from feminists to male domestic shelters, and for pushing for causes which further advantage women in places where they are advantaged, and a lot of other things. And, I'm sure the opposite is true as well, and you have noticed - a lot of feminists are very angry at the MRAs for supposedly undermining their own causes and stoking misogyny. To an extent, I feel as the reaction of anger at the other gender's movements is a little bit inevitable when you align yourself with a movement for one gender's rights - some people will become very ideological, and oppose anything which sounds counter to their goals even if those goals should harmonize. Others will often get trapped in a kind of ideology which loses the forest through the trees, and starts delving into some weird, radical theory.

But I think there's something important to glean out of it: The rights of women, and the rights of men, are not a dichotomy. One does not inherently take away from the other. It CAN do that, if a pursuit of equality is applied bluntly and without consideration for how it will effect things. But the hate and rivalry between these two groups is... Shall we say, often contrary to the underlying point of gender equality.

The goal of your gender activism should always be the pursuit of fairness to the common person. It should be women being allowed to leave marriages which harm them, just as much as it should be men not being forced into a draft. There are some areas - such as male reproductive rights - where there is not necessarily going to be an easy answer. But I think, so long as you look at each situation and genuinely think about if it is fair, you will be on the right track.

So - Question things, think things through, and do not assume something is automatically logical or just simply because a feminist or an MRA is saying it. Keep in mind that your activism is for the sake of a fair world where people are not as confined and oppressed by the circumstances of their birth,

On specific things which I think are... Largely non-controversial in examples of men lagging behind?

The draft is often pointed to as a giant example of institutional inequality for men. This is part of a larger pattern of men being 'disposable' in that their lives are expected to be laid down for family or society

Men are behind in all stages of education, and have been for at least 30 years.

Men face vastly harsher prison sentences than women, are the victims of more crime, and are in situations where they turn to crime more.

Men are homeless at something like 8x the rate of women

Male circumcision is still widely practiced

In the event of a domestic abuse scenario, men are usually assumed to be the perpetrators through things like Predominant Aggressor Laws (ie, the larger partner is assumed to be the violent one and can be removed by police - not explicitly targeting men, but de-facto targeting men.) This one is weaselly - it can make sense at a glance. But it means that a man who is being victimized cannot go to the police for help, or he will be blamed for his own abuse.

Male jobs have a higher rate of injury and death

Male suicide rates are higher. This corresponds with a lot of loneliness and depression in men.

...This is just off the top of my head. If you look at those kinds of issues, you will see the ways men are suffering in kind of an undeniable way. Focus on them, and you can see what may be needed.

I'm sorry so many people here are assuming the worst! Try to understand, they have been burned a lot by the antagonism between these two movements. I'll be turning off replies for this one, but good luck out there.

veiakas · 2024-04-11T06:36:22+00:00

You can address double standards head-on. And I mean, the double standards that are often discussed as fact, among women, things like: "Men always have it easy!". Somehow, when a woman, addresses this, then women tend to believe them more. Men are not believed, because they "are the enemy, who has it easy."

Make-TFT-Fun-Again · 2024-04-11T06:29:32+00:00

Unfortunately I don't think you can, as a feminist. Feminism is not about equality, it's a women's rights movement- it just paints itself that way to get more funding. Women's issues will always be more inflated and men's issues will either be downplayed or made out as something men do to themselves- and then women's orgs will demand equality from that premise.

But if you're determined, I'd say help fight the zero-sum thinking that helping men detracts from helping women and recognize that there's double standards that seriously affect men more than women too- ideally without circling back on the idea that it's the fault of the patriarchy but hey, that's a tall order so I understand you won't do that.

ConflictedRebl · 2024-04-11T08:11:46+00:00

Feminism works against mens rights. I stopped being a feminist.

Huntress_Nyx · 2024-04-11T04:55:25+00:00

If you stand up for everyone, and you care about both men and women, then you're not a feminist, but an egalitarian. Feminism doesn't care about men (when it does care it's when it blames men for the issues women face)

And thank you for that and for your support.

penguinsrcoolaf · 2024-04-11T08:36:05+00:00

You're not a feminist if u care about men's rights you're a egalitarian. Which we all should be. How have u not been kicked out of the feminist spaces? You'll be banned from them on here now you've commented here.

Asamiya1978 · 2024-04-11T10:44:29+00:00

Start by acknowledging that feminism is nowadays a female supremacist cult. Question the feminist narrative, their concept of the "patriarchy", etc., and look at the bigger picture. It is not only women who suffer injustices.

In part, MRA exists because feminism made our oppression as males invisible. They portrayed us for decades as the oppressors and they diminished our problems. If it weren't for feminism we would be now talking about human rights, but since feminism attacked us so much we needed a movement to counter feminism and balance things.

If I were you I would stop identifying myself as a feminist. I would leave all ideologies and I would identify myself simply as a human being. If you identify yourself as a feminist you are going to be always biased towards that ideology, which is going to keep you blind to the opposite sex problems.

Sorry if I sound harsh but honestly, seeing what feminism is today, I cringe when a woman identifies herself as a feminist. To me it sounds like identifying as a misandric female supremacist. It is a hatred ideology. The sooner you realize that the better.

Also, if I asked you what can I do to support women rights without minimizing men's wouldn't that sound crazy to you? You imply that this is a war between both sexes and a sum zero game. It is not. You need to clean your mind of those toxic ideas. Men and women are not made to compete and be enemies.

Another example, what if I say "as a white person, what can I do to support black people's rights without diminishing mine?". It would be crazy, right? Think about it.

z770i1 · 2024-04-11T11:06:20+00:00

Try to ban mutilation for boys that have been normalized. Aka circumcision. It’s mutilation yet religious freedom only works for boys not for girls

mrkpxx · 2024-04-11T10:43:39+00:00

Stopping being a feminist would be a good place to start.

fakemuseum · 2024-04-11T07:29:44+00:00

I don’t understand why you perceive the idea of men’s rights as something opposite to other gender rights.

Johntoreno · 2024-04-11T10:05:14+00:00

redditor for 12 hours.
The choice of words you have made. To support men is supposed, in your mind, to hurt women somehow?

With "allies" like you, who needs ennemies? Kindly ~~fuck off~~ leave.

Main-Tiger8593 · 2024-04-11T06:27:35+00:00

feminism vs mens rights activism

there are several ways but it boils down to how our society tackles upbringing of children, parental surrender, marriage and consent...

feminists could start to advocate men work too much hours under terrible conditions instead women get paid less than men for example... one source for that would be the nurse salary report "did choose a female dominated field on purpose"

Emrys_Merlin · 2024-04-11T06:44:06+00:00

Work to remind both sides that neither cause is a zero sum.

TisIChenoir · 2024-04-11T07:08:20+00:00

Call out misandry, and those who diminish the issues men face (like, for example, those who say that domestic or sexual violence is a gendered issue wherein men are always perps and women are always victims.

Huitzil37 · 2024-04-11T11:39:37+00:00

Sexism is not a scale with men on one end and women on the other and you try to get the line right in the middle by being more sexist to men to reduce it against women. And feminism is not just the belief women should be free of sexism, it's a whole set of ideas about what sexism is and how it works. And all of those ideas are wrong.

Sexism is a system of beliefs and biases everyone participates in. Sexism is not about men hating women and deciding to hurt women, sexism is about maximizing women's safety at the cost of their agency and maximizing men's agency at the cost of their safety. They can't be separated. Anything that supports this, is sexism. Not reverse sexism, not sexism "against" one or the other, just sexism.

Feminism believes what sexism does: that men are inherently powerful and threatening, women are inherently helpless and victimized, and men always have to do more to enlist their agency to keep women safe. When you see feminists talking about how unsafe women are, ask yourself: is this true? Are women in this situation less safe than men? What happens to the men in this situation, is it worse? If I can't find anyone talking about it, is it because it doesn't happen, or because they don't care?

Boko Haram kidnapped 300 young girls for the crime of receiving a Western education. This kicked off the #BringBackOurGirls campaign where feminists all over the media told us this was proof of how dangerous it was to be a woman and all the threats women have to deal with. But when they kidnapped those girls, Boko Haram had already brutally murdered tens of thousands of young boys. They only started kidnapping the girls instead of letting them go because the West didn't care about all the boys they were killing. Why didn't feminists talk about that? This isn't a matter of "well they are for women and someone else can advocate for men --" what they were saying about the unique threats women face wasn't true, they were the opposite of the truth, and their statements could only be made if they ignored men being hurt.

How often is the feminist interpretation just completely wrong when you actually look at the facts? How helpful can an ideology be when it's wrong so consistently?

Grow_peace_in_Bedlam · 2024-04-11T14:32:13+00:00

If you're in the US, you are probably understandably outraged by the overturning of Roe v Wade two years ago. However, men don't have reproductive rights at the federal level or in any of the 50 states.

That's right, not a single state lets a man unilaterally waive all paternal rights and obligations even within the first 15 weeks of a woman's pregnancy. In every single state, for a man, consent to sex is considered consent to fatherhood. Actually, that's wrong, since there's several cases where men who were raped as minors were still obligated to pay child support.

When the time comes for women to get their abortion rights back at the federal level, I want to see feminists fighting for reproductive rights for everyone and not just women. It's the fair thing to do, and it will keep those freedoms more stable for both sides in the long run by giving everyone a stake in them.

Dispositionate · 2024-04-11T15:16:46+00:00

If you read, try Norah Vincent's book ('Self Made Man', If i remember correctly).

If you want to see her reactions and thoughts (or books aren't your thing, like me), try searching for her documentary on YouTube.

Her story is, ultimately, really sad...but it would help to give you more of an 'inside view from a womans perspective' on top of all the things shared here.

WeEatBabies · 2024-04-11T07:02:06+00:00

Condemn feminism! :

You're literally the cause of nearly all our problems :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqA8N74LNDE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRuLJnxL2lA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpPt6uqHapM

Abandon your former hate beliefs and repent!

Conscious-External-2 · 2024-04-11T08:47:33+00:00

I think your question kind of speaks for itself, u don't have that deep understanding of feminism or men's rights, if u think u supporting men's rights will hurt women in any way, then u either need to get those people out of your life or u need to rethink your fundamental ideas or concepts on gender equality. Supporting one doesn't mean u degrade or have less importance for the other :)

zqmvco99 · 2024-04-11T11:46:29+00:00

empower your brand of inclusive feminism and help bring down toxic feminism.

men cant speak up in a lot of situations. you can.

be prepared to be demonized as a gender traitor though

DrDalenQuaice · 2024-04-11T12:52:30+00:00

Men and women should have equal rights. If you see a men's rights activist making a statement, reverse the genders and see if it makes sense to you the other way around. Likewise, if you see a feminist making a statement about genders, reverse the genders in her statement and see if it makes sense the other way around.

If it only makes sense one way, it's a sexist statement. If you support women's rights and men's rights, it's simple. You support equal rights.

2024-04-11T15:31:39+00:00

understand that fighting for men doesn't diminish women. both groups should be equal. not just women where they are lacking.

a prime example is boys and education. we're left behind, but nothing is brought up, nothing changed. no bursaries or scholarships to help boys, because it is seen as sexist, but there are female only funds...

2024-04-12T01:52:17+00:00

If u want to support us, the first thing u need to do is to stop being a feminist

MozartFan5 · 2024-04-11T05:52:45+00:00

I'm pretty sure you are a troll recording all responses to try to delegitamize any and all concerns of the MRM.

jessi387 · 2024-04-11T04:53:42+00:00

There’s a book I recommend you read if your genuinely interested

previously_gifted_ · 2024-04-11T08:21:25+00:00

Thanks for your post. From my perspective - it shouldn't be viewed as a zero sum game. Supporting one doesn't come at the cost of the other.

Why can't society advocate for more female representation in STEM and also more men in medicine, nursing and teaching?

Why can't we fund research into ovarian and breast cancer & prostate cancer?

Why can't we fight to reduce domestic violence whilst fighting to reduce suicide and parental alienation?

Why is feminism viewed as brave but chauvinism is viewed as toxic?

The key issue is that most of the lobbyists make money off of the above. They profit off of telling society that if they give money to their groups, they'll solve the problems. So when another group asks for the same, it's viewed as taking from their cause (& their pockets)

The only way this problem gets addressed is when father's of girls and mothers of boys get involved.

No_Reaction_2168 · 2024-04-11T12:32:19+00:00

Stop supporting feminism, since it does a lot to undermine men's rights instead of actually helping us.

mr_ogyny · 2024-04-11T13:01:12+00:00

It depends on what you mean by diminishing women’s rights. I think supporting equality will naturally mean some privileges will be taken away such as equal sentencing, 50/50 custody by default, recognising that women can be abusive too, etc.

If you mean diverting attention from women’s issues I don’t think that will happen. Seeing women or feminists being more sympathetic to men’s issues would actually make me much more willing to reciprocate. Right now, due to rampant feminist solipsism, I only care because of my close female relatives.

I’m not sure what type of feminist you are, I will just speak in general so these aren’t really directed at you.

Please stop labelling misandry as toxic masculinity. Feminists have always recognised toxic female gender roles as misogyny not toxic femininity.
Viewing everything through the lens of the patriarchy is way too simplistic. You can’t simply blame everything negative on men and remove all agency and accountability from women.
Please don’t excuse the actions of bad women by infantilising them or armchair diagnosing them with mental illnesses and assuming prior trauma.

hasbulla_magomedov · 2024-04-11T13:48:21+00:00

Honestly I think just shutting down generalizations of men. I see so many statements that group all men into a bad category

SarcasticallyCandour · 2024-04-11T14:01:03+00:00

Call out prejudices and hipocrisies.

E.g 1. when a male is killed by a female partner dont assume "he was obviously battering her anyway" . We need to know he was not assume so.

E.g.2 if you think girl lagging behind boys in school was a problem, then you have to think boys now lagging behind girls is a problem. Anything else is hypocrisy.

E.g.3 if women making up 20% of physical sciences is too low, then men making up 20% of teachers, biologists, and 10% of therapists and psychologists is a problem too. It cant be one way.

E.g. 4 when a female is accused by a male of harrassment or domestic abuse , he needs to prove she did something. That needs to be both ways. We can see feminists trying to erode due process in sex assault cases and domestic abuse, like on universities where an accused male is expelled or fired immediately without a chance to build a defense. That is clearly anti male and gives women a position of power/advantage. If you support that you're against mens rights. An accused must be able to defend themselves, so countering feminism won't harm women in that sense but will remove advantages.

That should be pretty simple for even the most inept feminists to follow. Just dont lie. The other thing is fighting for male issues wont harm women but it will take away privileges such as family courts, female only grants, scholarships, bursaries, phds , mbas and other benefits like resources for domestic abuse victims. Women will have to share resources which will reduce privileges for women. Helping boys catch up to girls in school will remove femake privilege. A lot of feminists will see loss of privileges for women as misogyny which is expected really.

plainoldusernamehere · 2024-04-11T17:33:00+00:00

Why exactly do you think men are out to get women?

Economy_Discount9967 · 2024-04-11T04:50:47+00:00

not be a femin*st

previously_gifted_ · 2024-04-11T08:06:26+00:00

Nothing. Femism and Men's Rights don't walk hand in hand.

JACSliver · 2024-04-11T09:52:39+00:00

That is the thing, supporting the rights of a group does not mean diminishing those of other; it is not a zero-sum game.

OohSooMoist · 2024-04-11T10:26:06+00:00

I think I know what you mean. I remember people who said Black Lives Matter and were met with "All Lives Matter." BLM people felt like it watered down their message, and the others felt it was a message for all who'd been wronged. Female rights matter vs. all rights matter.

p3ngwin · 2024-04-11T14:02:37+00:00

As a feminist what can i do to support men’s rights without diminishing those of women?

Why would advocating for the EQUAL rights of people to not be discriminated on their gender, possibly "diminish" any rights for women ?

If you advocate, and achieve, equality, and women lose some sort of benefit, then that wasn't a right they deserved in the first place, and all you did was take away their privilege.

Which is something feminists have enjoyed focussing on doing to men, so as a feminist you should equally apply that goal to women too, right ?

Equality looks like oppression to the privileged.

Jaded-Help1860 · 2024-04-11T17:26:12+00:00

Was adding “without diminishing those of women” at the end really necessary? Supporting men’s rights is never equivalent to taking away those of women. We don’t say we want to snatch your rights. We just want what is rightfully ours.

previously_gifted_ · 2024-04-11T05:44:40+00:00

You shamelessly identify with a movement that has promoted hatred towards men since its beginning and you don't think there's anything wrong with it, therefore I don't trust one fucking word that comes out of you and neither should anyone reading your post, and no, being a feminist just means giving privileges to women at the cost of men's suffering and NOTHING ELSE. What dark intention do you truly have coming here writing this shit?

Angryasfk · 2024-04-11T09:02:49+00:00

As a feminist there’s a few things.

First is to actually be aware that there are issues. I don’t blame women for not being aware of the issues that guys have. You have your own problems and it’s easy to just imagine we have charmed and privileged lives. Actually looking a bit deeper - which you are doing - is the first and most important thing you can do.

After that the best thing is to slowly introduce fellow feminists to some of the issues. But be careful. Many won’t want to know and will actually get hostile. So will need to be cautious and diplomatic.

As for the issues. Well there is official discrimination in employment and education. There is discrimination in custody and divorce settlements. There are false assertions made by feminists about health funding: for example breast cancer gets 3x the research funding of prostate cancer despite very similar mortality rates. Don’t misunderstand me: I don’t begrudge a single cent spent on breast cancer research. I just get angry when it’s falsely asserted than men’s health is prioritised. There is the “believe all women” movement which flatly denies that any woman lies for reasons of malice.

There’s plenty more. Essentially it would be good if feminism actually did stand for equality of the genders instead of simply promoting women’s interests: or conversely admitted it was just a movement to promote women, and not actually about equality. But to call itself an equality movement and declare “discrimination” on the one hand and “nothing to see here folks” when a similar thing happens the other way round is a bit much.

Essentially I think feminism has to drop patriarchy theory: this enables them to insist that men are favoured even when we’re not. But no one person can do this.

Johntoreno · 2024-04-11T05:22:21+00:00

As a feminist what can i do

Comment using your real account, i don't trust a damn word you said if you insist on hiding your real account from us.

LongDongSamspon · 2024-04-11T09:19:47+00:00

You can not be a feminist (a real one not just someone who uses the name thoughtlessly) and support men. If you believe in any feminist ideology about men you are instantly unsupportive toward and degrading men.

But if you must - don’t listen to other feminist women when they diagnose mens problems or the solution for them. After all what would they know? Why would they understand men better than men do? They would not.

Squirrelschwoaf · 2024-04-11T10:13:22+00:00

The only problem I have with feminism is that they seem to have forgotten how they once fought against any military draft. Now they just run around with Ukraine flags without even talking about the disgusting behaviour of Ukraine.

But that’s at lease for me the only thing where I don’t agree with feminists. That’s also the only reason why I am even on this sub

gvs77 · 2024-04-11T15:15:43+00:00

In general, feminists are not in favor of equal rights but privileges and equality of outcome. Both are fundamentally unfair.

Today, there isn't a legal right in the west that women don't have and men do, but the reverse is true. Men can be drafted, forced into service etc.

Don't propagate lies such as the wage gap (it has been disproven over and over again), don't demonize men and argue for equality of opportunity over outcome

NeoNotNeo · 2024-04-11T19:17:20+00:00

Stop the lies in the media related to gender and men in particular

Gender wage gap confirms women choose lower paying jobs that are far less physically demanding.

Not all women, but enough to make a statical difference

Character_Map_6683 · 2024-04-12T03:26:12+00:00

Stay out of men's spaces and realize you are part of the problem. You are part of the misandrynation. The Matriarchy that has been oppressing men in the west for centuries. Fall in line and do what we tell you. Women should be silent in MALE spaces.

Spiritual-Society305 · 2024-04-12T17:37:15+00:00

Troll

eli_ashe · 2024-04-13T02:15:17+00:00

I'm a feminist, degreed, practiced and all that jazz, but also dude. I've used that position broadly to support women in male dominated spaces, as needed. Bringing the heat as needed, checking misogyny, and muscling in women as needed.

This has meant such practical things as deliberately talking to women who are in otherwise male dominated spaces, listening to them, not necessarily agreeing with them, but giving them the time and space to say their thing and respond in a thoughtful manner, inviting women to mixed sexed get togethers, events, and so forth, and advocating for them to men directly as needed, again, especially in otherwise male dominated spaces.

I found such to be quite effective on a community level. I'd suggest doing similar things, though obviously with a sweet ass gender switch up on that.

I have not generally done such things online, though I suppose I have started to a bit. And currently I am far more interested in dealing with men's issues as they seem to be in more dire need atm than women. Tho I think out of hand I tend to be the male feminist in the room moderating what might otherwise get out of hand;)

I'd add that personally, having been at this for several decades now, one of the biggest disappointments has been not seeing the lady feminists doing the same within their spaces. There is a lot of terf guarding in all the connotations of that term, against men and masculinity. Transgressing those boundaries are good and effective sorts of things to do imho. Aside from all the issues and policy particulars.

Fwiw, I've been putting together a YouTube series trying to handle men's issues within a, oh, feminist framework, so as to not be trampling all over the ladies in the process: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaXyGn49cmSTc9xWs7JI7LO7Ilb\_c2uTe&si=s\_fQ3vwMEvMdy69I

The Rape Of The Swan series. You and your feminist allies might find it useful, the mra folk might too, as hopefully it doesn't trample on either. Bridges over chasms.

thanks for whatever efforts you and yours might make.

couldntyoujust · 2024-04-15T03:43:42+00:00

Hey, I noticed some of the harsh comments, and I'm really sorry that they treated you that way. I get it, in a way. Some feminist ideas have ended up being really harmful to men and not about equality. But still there's no excuse for that behavior. You seem to have come here in good faith to learn and interact with us respectfully and I admire and respect that. I've tried in writing this to be respectful so I hope that you take it that way and feel that respect in how I address these issues. Also, If you haven't yet, I definitely recommend "The Red Pill" documentary. That is a really good introduction to the controversy at least.

You have to decide for yourself what equality means. Does it mean merely the equality of treatment and protection? Or does it mean equality of outcome between men and women? What does "hurting women" mean? Does that mean merely not subjugating them under some kind of oppression, or does that mean not taking away their privileges over men in society? Do such privileges even exist? (I think they do, hence why I'm a man in this sub). Are things like abortion, presumption of receiving custody and child support, presumption of truth to rape accusations and accurate identification of the rapist, the college graduation gap, the education gap, the genital mutilation gap (is circumcision mutilation? If we advocate for protecting boys from circumcision, does that actually trivialize FGM?), the suicide gap, the workplace death gap, the dating economy (is it misogyny to recognize the economic dynamics to dating?), etc. expressions of "patriarchy" and "misogyny" or misandry? Or neither?

...I wanted to ask what i can do as a feminist to further support men without hurting women? ... Also politically i try to stand up for everyone, not just women. What more can feminists do to help support the men in our lives?

I think that is going to depend how you view the different issues. I would say that the things we point out as problems or advocate for as solutions that equalize men and women are harmful to women, but feminists often disagree.

I'm against no-fault divorce, not because I want women trapped in unhappy marriages or even abusive or unfaithful marriages, but rather because I think women have or should have the maturity to improve their marriages but without the legal permanency of marriage under the law, don't have any reason to do so and instead just file for divorce. I'm against abortion because I see it as women having a super-right - even over the child a man has half the responsibility for creating - that the man who created them has no say over the fate of.

I think some things that you might be more amenable to, as a feminist, is a recognition that grown men can be raped or violated, that we often struggle with shame around expressing our emotions, that as children we don't have nearly the same protections from genital mutilation, that women often are advised on how to game the court system with false accusations or spurious PFA orders that alienate fathers from their kids, that family and even criminal courts are often biased against men, that domestic abuse is presumed to consist of a male aggressor when really it's not a gendered issue and one-sided battery is equally dished out by men and women in relationships, that a lot of the substances in our world are toxic to men and boys in terms of their testosterone production, that fatherhood is critical for society and the children they father, etc.

It might help to, instead of me trying to exhaustively explain all sorts of ways that you can address these issues, to learn about the issues themselves, and then come up with a feminist way to address them. It would mean a lot if feminists came out and said "Look, FGM is terrible but at least girls are legally protected from it; boys are not protected and that needs to change!" or "It's not ok that 70-80% of all divorces are initiated by wives, often for trivial reasons, and not because their husband is some sort of bad guy."

I wanted to ask if maybe there is a common micro aggression men face about their masculinity (something that might be happening around me without me even noticing)? What are some things we do everyday that demonize masculinity that we can change over time?

I know that one thing that really annoys the lot of us (and so I guess you can call it a micro-aggression) is when feminists talk about "patriarchy hurting men too" or "toxic masculinity". To us, toxic behavior is just toxic regardless what sex it associates itself with. That latter detail to us is irrelevant. A woman can be toxically aggressive, but she can also be righteously aggressive. Same for men. Aggression itself is not a bad thing. My son is sleeping down the hall in his bedroom and if someone broke in and tried to take him, it would not be "toxic masculinity" for me to go hamm on that person's face with my fists or shoot them until they're completely unresponsive in a pool of blood on his floor. Is that aggressive? Absolutely! But is it toxic? Not in a million years, and that's regardless if that assailant is a man or woman. And in this day and age where women have so many privileges that men and boys are struggling and suffering, the idea that there is anything even resembling what feminists call "the patriarchy" is laughable.

2024-04-11T08:18:09+00:00

Maybe stop calling yourself a feminist and call a human rights activist? It's self explanatory as everyone should uplift the society. You recognising men's problem is already a huge step so kudos for that.

Also please condemn fake rape allegations, that shit makes up 70-80% of all rape allegations. Truly disgusting.

ConflictedRebl · 2024-04-12T01:39:11+00:00

In response to your 2nd edit: If most feminists cared deeply about men why aren’t they here supporting mens rights? Go to a feminist sub and ask them what they think about mens rights. You will be surprised.

kuzism · 2024-04-11T11:59:13+00:00

Smile !

Devi1s-Advocate · 2024-04-11T13:04:49+00:00

OP why do you think one affects the other?

ApprehensiveMail8 · 2024-04-11T16:18:30+00:00

Welcome!

I prefer to think we respect men's rights rather than "support" them.

Rights are inalienable. Rights are not things we let other people have - other people have them whether we like it or not. It is God's will.

Also, (IMHO) men's right is fully inclusive of women's rights. The word men can be synonomous with "people" and in the context of the phrase "men's rights" I believe that is the applicable definition.

This is somewhat controversial- we are definitely pro-male here- but still, I can't think of a single right that I have seen anyone suggest that male men have and female men don't.

___bruce · 2024-04-11T16:32:51+00:00

Glad to see that you are taking an interest in this topic. I think, the problems are so deeply rooted that you might(not saying you have to) have to change your complete understanding of reality. It will be a very long discussion if we get into it. So, I am not going to do that.

The sad truth is things have gone so far that you probably can't do what you want to do which is helping men without hurting women. But, you can choose to help humans without looking at their gender. That would be an easier pill to swallow.

And, if you are really serious, try to first come to an agreement with yourself on some basic ideas like:

what is a right
what is a privilege
what should be the role of a government for each human
how much exploitation of a human by the government is okay to maintain overall social balance
how to measure how much pain/suffering someone is in(this is necessary if you want government to take decisions based on this) and to what extent it should be taken into account

justanother-eboy · 2024-04-11T16:51:58+00:00

Promote empathy for men and treating men with respect and fairness.

2024-04-11T18:32:38+00:00

you will have to abandon the social justice and equity theory part of the feminist ideology. You cannot support men’s rights and believe in equity. equity explicitly leads to unequal outcomes which means someone is getting fucked over.

if you make things equal, it means that rather than focusing on outcome you focus on process that leads to unequal outcome. Attack systemic barriers, not outcome. Attack equity. leveling the playing field does not diminish women’s rights. if you want equality you need to abandon equity, they are antithetical to one another.

so how to do this? advocate for equal sentencing. me. get 3x the sentence from the same crime. wanting a fair judicial system does not diminish women.

advocate for men’s rooms with a changing station for single dads. this doesn’t hurt women at all

protect men who go to the park with their kid. so often women assume that men who are alone with kids are predatory. normalize single parenthood NOT JUST WHEN WOMEN DO IT

educate yourself about domestic and sexual violence. men are the majority of victims for non-reciprocal violence in DV, which accounts for half of all DV. however, thanks to the deluth model, men have been portrayed as the majority of perpetrators and have next to no protections under the law. likewise men are equally victims of sexual assault when you include the special “made to penetrate” (Penis in vagina) category created because the FBI does not recognize that women can rape men, defining rape as penetration BY a penis. this is found in the NISVS studies, the variance for rape is off by .1% for men and women, men leading in victimhood. Time magazine actually did a peace on this statistic, which many will find surprising or unbelievable depending on personal bias.

if you remove the falsehood that women are the primary victims and that these crime categories are gendered, you will empower male victims at no real cost to women (women’s position of power in this matter SHOULD be diminished to establish equality) and maybe men’s shelters will actually start to exist for victims. perhaps helplines will help men instead of assuming they are perpetrators.

I could go on but I am tired already thinking about this stuff because there’s just so much.

a lot of the work you’ll honestly have to do to be a good equality-seeking feminist is honestly going to be unlearning a lot of bunk feminist ideas that are counterintuitive if equality is the goal.

I hope this helps

Synchronicitousyzygy · 2024-04-11T20:39:48+00:00

Not ignoring the favoritism of women in every regard in western society would help. If a woman is in trouble, especially a white woman, she by default has the support of the entire internet and community. Women are not only allowed but encouraged to be misandrists on social media. There are female community managers that are paid 6 figures for large gaming companies that can go on Twitter and say things like "white men are a mistake" and "white male gamers should die" and they still have their jobs. Just Google it, and open your eyes, it's ubiquitous. The porn industry aggressively tries to sell the white men = bad, black men = great narrative and no one bats an eye. If there were entire websites dedicated to demeaning white women and propping up Asian women's superiority over them there would be public outrage and the porn industry would be forced to change. Women who cheat on their husband's often get rewarded by the state for doing so. Just look at the female cop who cheated on her husband with 6 or 7 of her cop colleagues in New York, all she had to do was cry crocodile tears and fake being a victim and the state gave her 500k to shut her up. There was overwhelming evidence she wanted to do the things she did and sought them out, the male cops were mostly assholes yes but she wasnt forced into a damn thing. Female icons like Kim Kardashian and Billie eilish can go on national TV and joke about men needing to compensate for small penises with large houses and nice shoes but then try to be champions of women's body positivity movements. You couldn't make this shit up. I could go on for days but it's obvious to anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together that women, white women in particular, have an insane advantage in the states, in every way imaginable. Marriage, social media, dating, education, jobs. The tech and business industries are a whole other can of worms.

EnormousPurpleGarden · 2024-04-11T23:58:38+00:00

The first step is to understand that the concept of privilege is inherently situational and operates in different directions in different circumstances. In the West, there is no ‘patriarchy’ that privileges men over women. Instead, there's a heteronormative complex that privileges conformity with traditional gender stereotypes over non-conformity. The result privileges men over women in some areas (e.g. representation on corporate boards of directors), and privileges women over men in other areas (e.g. access to public services, military conscription, workplace deaths, the right not to be forcibly circumcised as an infant, etc.). Male privilege and female privilege are both real, are both evil, and must both be destroyed for civilisation to flourish.

2024-04-12T12:43:28+00:00

Alright. You are probably recieving a lot of negative attention and down votes and shit in this thread, I'm sure that's unpleasant.

Just please note that you have likely been blocked from most of the feminist subreddits for even engaging with us.

The way you are being treated is a response to how other members of your movement behave. To be clear, this is not fair. You seem to be here in good faith (highly unusual for a feminist) and people should respect that you are an individual who is not responsible for how others behave.

I probably don't agree with your opinions but I respect you're willingness to listen to the other side. Not many feminists are like that and I suspect not many of us are either.

(Though as I mentioned we're all pre-blocked from their communities so if we don't engage with the other side we kinda have that as an excuse.)

2024-04-12T12:57:32+00:00

Learn to look thru your double standards and see it thru a man's eyes. Come terms with not being able to have your cake and eat it to. How about campaigning for equality or God forbid fairness in the family court system. Speak out against women that fake blatant false acquisitions against men. Maybe do some self reflection and realize despite what everyone tells you, you aren't special and not deserving of princess treatment. Maybe just maybe take notice of all the men that are basically invisible to you, you know the men that make society function and thank them or at the very least don't degrade them for keeping society running. Understand that men and women are different we are blank slates.

No_Worldliness_4562 · 2024-04-12T22:13:58+00:00

Your post really gives me hope that there are still feminists that advocate for REAL equality und universal rights. Thank you.

2024-04-15T09:51:21+00:00

Just like in our previous generations women’s rights were marginalised by our social system the men’s rights are marginalised by our legal system.

Irony is the oppressed women are still not getting justice whereas mostly educated modern families who work towards equality and don’t believe in old traditional systems are being targeted because there are pro women laws and can be easy to misuse because of some criminal woman and thier greedy parents who see them as money making opportunity

2024-05-27T14:03:47+00:00

These don't add up. If you actually do the things you mentioned, you are not a feminist. That's it. Or you are just lying about them.

christina_murray_ · 2024-07-07T19:56:51+00:00

Sorry you’re receiving some rude comments here- you seem here in good faith- I think some users are being a little too reactionary

WanabeInflatable · 2024-04-11T10:54:27+00:00

That would be nice to stop futile war between feminism and mens rights. Mens rights is often portrayed as conservative backlash to send women back to kitchen, or equated as mysoginist incels. Mens rights in turn is spending too much resources and nerves fighting feminists and acting like an underdog.

Besides demonising MR, there is also problem with concepts of "one-directional systemic sexism", hierarchy of oppression, "systemic privilege" and trying to reframe all the issues of men as "backfiring patriarchy" and toxic masculinity.

I think, peaceful coexistense or feminism and MR (not exactly alliance, but at least ceasing hostilities) is possible and would benefit both sides.

Unfortunately it is very dificult to find support of such approach. Maybe we need more feminists sympathetic to MR cause to change present status quo?

konous · 2024-04-11T11:33:22+00:00

You're already doing great work by being brave enough to post in this forum.

A good start to learn about the MRM is Warren Farrel's "The Myth of Male Power." Try and give some of his other books a read.

Farrel is a Male Feminist MRA and the founder of the entire MRM.

He's also pretty intersectional which is another win.

But yeah, welcome to the MRM.

ColumbianGeneral · 2024-04-11T22:26:10+00:00

Do be careful on this sub I’ve seen some genuine arguments over concerning stuff that needs to be addressed and I’ve seen a lot of reasoning but I’ve also seen a lot of incels.

The biggest thing I can say is if you’re familiar with Ted Talk there was a feminist who went to interview men of the men’s rights movement several years ago. She admitted that when she started she had this biased view and was going in to “show the world for what they were” but she came out of it understanding that men face a lot of unique challenges just as well as women but only women’s rights seem to get addressed. She created a documentary on the matter and guess what? Feminists (I’m not saying all feminists) protested its screening. Nothing in her documentary shamed women or feminism, all it did was say “hey, men have issues too that need to be looked at” and the protests started.

Idk if I can post links here so I’ll just give you the title:

Meeting the enemy, a feminist comes to terms with the men’s rights movement.

Cassie Jaye is the speaker.

Few-Procedure-268 · 2024-04-11T10:20:04+00:00

As you can probably tell, most people on this sub are going to be hostile towards you. I'd recommend you Google "Richard Reeves" and listen to an interview with him about his book Of Boys and Men. My favorite is The Ezra Klein Show.

He addresses exactly your concerns and is supportive of feminism.

Title	As a feminist what can i do to support men’s rights without diminishing those of women?
Author	previously_gifted_
Upvotes	41
Comments	383
Date	April 11, 2024 2:29 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1c13vqr/as_a_feminist_what_can_i_do_to_support_mens/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/as-a-feminist-what-can-i-do-to-support-mens-rights.1514727 https://theredarchive.com/post/1514727

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