Am I the problem?

LaughingDead_KC · 2024-08-06T20:55:25+00:00

So I've been mulling this over for a bit, trying to figure out the words to explain it. Promise I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but people seem to think "being husband and wife" and "legal marriage" are the same thing. They are not.

Legal marriage is a LEGAL contract, meant to establish the merging of property. THIS IS THE PURPOSE OF MARRIAGE IN THE LEGAL SYSTEM. This contract is intended to be permanent, "til death to us part."

Marriage contracts are often accompanied by a second legal contract, a prenuptual agreement, which defines how property is to be dispersed in the event a marriage contract is dissolved.

Nobody should sign a legal contract if they do not agree with, especially one that affects the remainder of your life.

Now, with all that said, here's my 2 cents. Your dude has written up a contract that protects his current and future assets, so he doesn't get screwed out of his hard work if things turn to shit. As someone who spent entirely too much time in a courtroom, I can empathize pretty strongly with his position.

On the other hand, it is absolutely a shit deal for you, and I would encourage you not to sign it.

So here's a thought... this is gonna blow your mind...

Because it's a legal contract, negotiate. Compromise. You guys allegedly love eachother, right? Work with each other to create a contract that both of you are comfortable signing. "Look, homie. Shit happens. The statistics aren't in our favor and this is not a fairy tale. If things DO go bad in 5, 10, 25 years, how am I going to live after being unemployed for that long? Let's work out some sort of fair 'severance package' that provides me with what I'll need to get back into the workforce and take care of myself and our kids, but doesn't just steal the fruits of your hard work. You own 2 apartments? If we have kids, give me the shitty one til the youngest turns 18, so you know the kids have a place to sleep during my time. "

For final thoughts, both of you should sit down and watch this interview. He's way better at explaining it and it would be helpful to get perspective: https://youtu.be/o5z8-9Op2nM?si=LbUqjI8w_isMVa2L

Yepitsme2020 · 2024-08-06T18:38:04+00:00

The challenge here is you both have good solid reasons, from what we can see anyhow for your viewpoints. You wanting to make sure you have a place to stay if you give up your career is a legit concern. To anyone saying "treat him well so he won't leave you" is being goofy, as the real world doesn't always work that way, even if it should. So this would require a bit more info to really form an opinion, but if I had to guess, this is going to boil down to both sides will need to compromise a little bit, and take a bit of risk, if you both deem it worth it. I doubt either of you will get exactly what you seek, but can you negotiate, and talk it over until you find something acceptable?

Lobster556 · 2024-08-06T17:40:57+00:00

If he expects you to give up your career to raise kids, then he's pushing it tbh. If you can't trust each other 100%, maybe find a childminder so you can keep working.

Emrys_Merlin · 2024-08-06T18:57:40+00:00

First and foremost- You should both know each other's financial status and info. That he's intentionally withholding the info is a big, crimson-red flag. Before any other decisions get made, you two need to be equal in the knowledge of each other's finances, because otherwise you are going in blind to any discussion of your future, leaving him holding all the power.

You can't just trust that he won't 'leave his kid's mom without a place to sleep.' Again, this is a power dynamic issue. So to add to my previous statement, not only would I say that you demand all financial info he has so you can make an informed decision as a consenting adult in this partnership, I'd make it abundantly clear that if he divorces you, you will be demanding an equal share in all things that have happened since the marriage. If he refuses, he's not treating you as an equal partner. You're the hired help.

MrMCG1 · 2024-08-06T18:23:17+00:00

Always ensure that you have somewhere to live if you divorce. If he will not put your name on the house you both live in then don't marry him or agree to owning another property that you rent out thst is only in your name.

griii2 · 2024-08-06T18:41:04+00:00

Ask yourself what would happen if one of you will want a divorce. This is a serious question - the divorce rate for first marriage is about 50%. Will you be OK in 15 years from now, having no income, no career, no trade, no savings, no property?

B0ulderSh0ulders · 2024-08-06T18:12:48+00:00

He is asking you to permanently give up on your professional ambitions and basically be his servant, and yet is unwilling to share info about his finances 2 years into a serious relationship?

He said the agreement

Agreement? Is this a marriage or an indentured servitude contract you're entering?

When I asked what would happen if he decided to divorce, he said he wouldn't leave his kids' mom without a place to sleep.

He says this but refuses to actually prove it by agreeing to sign off or give certain assets/property to you in the case of a divorce?

He is not putting his money where his mouth is, he is refusing to share info with you that you have a reasonable expectation to receive, and it seems like he views your relationship as entirely transactional.

I am not saying he is evil, or a bad man. It sounds like he's had a harsh life, however it would be perfectly reasonable for you to set some boundaries and expectations for him. I'd let him know that you respect yourself too much to be in a relationship with him until he makes a serious commitment to change or seeks therapy.

LateralThinker13 · 2024-08-06T18:26:52+00:00

am I the problem here, or is he being dishonest with me?

He's either being dense or dishonest. For example:

He doesn't want joint property and insists on a marriage agreement stating that any property bought after marriage belongs solely to the person who bought it and won't be shared.

A prenup (because that's effectively what this is) exists to protect what each person had PRIOR to their marriage. Their UNION. Marriage changes ownership to common/shared because of that union.

His ask is nonsensical. Maybe present it like this:

"Marriage is a partnership. A union of trust and love, oriented towards building a stronger future together than we would have as separate individuals. Yes? Each person puts in their labors, and each person gets a share of the success of their partnership.

"You are saying that you want all of your income to remain yours after the marriage. You want to retain ownership of all that money buys, since I would not be financially contributing to the marriage. Fine, I can agree to that.

"But going by your logic, all of my homemaking and parenting dedication, my sacrifice of my career opportunities, all of that is reserved to ME. Will you sign an agreement granting me permanent, uncontested, and unrestricted full custody to any children we have, since I will be the stay-at-home parent? You know, since 'any property created after the marriage belongs solely to the person who created it' to paraphrase you?

"No? Why not? Spell it out for me. Explain how my contribution of labor, energy, time, and love as a full-time SAHM is any less than your financial contribution. Explain how my contribution isn't protected and yours is."

Best interpretation: this guys knows some horror stories, and just isn't thinking/empathising with you at all.

Likely interpretation: this guy is a bit of a selfish tool, doesn't trust anyone but himself (ego), and that isn't going to change.

Worst interpretation: this guy is gaslighting you, looking to take advantage, and will burn you down the road.

Able_Lavishness4045 · 2024-08-06T17:40:06+00:00

I personally feel this arrangement is unfair towards you. I think it's understandable that you're concerned about the financial implications of your relationship and your future. Especially since you're giving up your career to be a house wife and raise children. It's also concerning that he won't share his salary to you.

I don't know the solution to this. I don't think you are the problem though. I think this arrangement is unfair towards you. You should have some financial stability in case of a divorce and not just have to trust his word.

Lilly_Rose_Kay · 2024-08-07T07:36:07+00:00

Woman here with same values as you. I do want to give you an idea what could happen in the future.

My sister was a stay at home mom, homeschooling the kids. Her husband had a construction business. Unfortunately, it was discovered that he wasn't paying into the workers insurance or taxes. He lost his business and home. She stayed with him, cared for him and the home they rented. Used up what savings she had. Eventually, they were able to crawl out of the debt and move to Texas and buy a house. The kids have left the nest by this time. My brother-in-law filed for divorce. He kept the house that he paid for and gave her $1500 total for alimony. She got nothing other than that. She had never worked a job in her life. He left her destitute. She is now in her mid 50s working crazy hours at a hotel and living with her parents. She owes our parents thousands.

Men have rights to the money they make, but I believe they need to provide something for their wives, even if they divorce. A home should be communal property. Even if he buys it, you are the one caring for it and that is your contribution. Your job is caring for home and family. Some couples pay the homemaker an allowance so they are not completely financially dependent on the money earner.

United_Reality4157 · 2024-08-06T18:38:39+00:00

nah he dead wrong

17gorchel · 2024-08-06T19:24:35+00:00

No. But this is exactly why dowry used to exist; to protect the woman by giving her financial backing just in case something happened. This was either provided to the woman by her father at the time of marriage, or the dowry was provided to her by her husband as a safety net.

Street_Conflict_9008 · 2024-08-06T20:35:39+00:00

In the agreement it would need to specifically state that while you may not be entitled to property ownership, the sale of the property to be split 50/50, or you are legally allowed to stay at a particular property after divorce, and he is responsible for its expenses. He will not be allowed to evict you from that property.

Once you decide to move, he is allowed to do whatever he likes with that property.

Security of accommodation is important!

fantasticalblur · 2024-08-07T03:15:46+00:00

The fact that he expects you to just take his word for it that that he "won't let the mother of his children have nowhere to sleep but he doesn't even trust you enough to tell you how much money keep makes is crazy. Trust is a two way street. If he isn't willing to trust you with how much money he makes you have no reason to leave your financial future completely in his hands

kingcobra0411 · 2024-08-06T19:04:52+00:00

There are simple options

Option 1: Both partner works. Both partner shares household works and child raising tasks 50/50. Both partners share expenses 50/50. Properties, cars blah blah belong to their own. Not shared until they share mortgage or payments 50/50.

Option 2: One partners takes care of the house, kids and family. Other partner takes care of the financial side. In this case all the property or assets is shared by both partners 50/50.

Anything else deviating from this is fraud, cheating and taking advantage of each other.

Fearlessbloc · 2024-08-06T18:30:35+00:00

Tbh it seems both of you for some reason think the other is going to leave them. Sit down and think it out yourself first and then ask the other of their intentions. Sorry I don't know whether such an agreement if signed will stand as there are too many nuances involved.

Asatmaya · 2024-08-06T19:00:41+00:00

He is asking you to put yourself in a risky position, you are not being unreasonable to ask for a guarantee.

For example:

When I asked what would happen if he decided to divorce, he said he wouldn't leave his kids' mom without a place to sleep.

OK, then have him put it in writing; draft a pre-nup which states exactly what you will get in a divorce.

Plus_Ad_4041 · 2024-08-07T00:14:50+00:00

He is basically talking about a pre nuptual agreement, not an "agreement". If he has a lot of assets and you want to marry him and he wants to marry you great but it sounds like he is not going to do it without a pre nup which honestly I don't blame him with the way marriage is nowadays and the rate that women leave marriages nowadays.

I suppose you can either agree with his terms, not get married or leave.

EnormousPurpleGarden · 2024-08-07T00:21:56+00:00

His position doesn't make sense from an economics standpoint. He seems to think that if he's at work and you're at home with the kids, he's the only one working, which is simply not true. You'd both be working: he'd be in the labour market and you'd be engaged in non-market household labour, but to an economist, both of those are “work” and economic production. A stay-at-home parent contributes economic value to the household just as a wage-earning employee does, albeit in a different way. The stuff a stay-at-home parent does is valuable work—after all, people will pay big bucks for childcare. He wouldn't be able to focus on his career as much if you weren't taking care of the kids for him, so you'd be indirectly contributing to his paycheque. In short, you'd both be paying for property acquired during marriage, just in different ways.

In terms of wanting an agreement to protect his interests, I get where he's coming from: men get unjustly screwed over in the courts all the time, so I understand him wanting to protect himself. His proposal goes way too far, though. He's claiming the entire economic output of the household as his, which as I've explained above, is simply not true. Even if it were true, you shouldn't just trust that he “wouldn't leave his kids’ mom without a place to sleep;” you would be entitled to demand some sort of guarantee of that in the agreement.

We've been saying for years that men need to do more to protect themselves in family law situations, but remember that it runs both ways: women are also entitled to demand that their legitimate interests be protected.

TL;DR: Don't go along with his demands, especially since his refusal to disclose his finances raises more red flags than a communist parade.

michaelpaoli · 2024-08-07T01:23:29+00:00

woman with traditional values

Uhm, ... it's not like there's one and only one set of "traditional values".

I
pay for food

Doesn't sound that traditional. I thought you were supposed to be barefoot and pregnant and in the kitchen all the time ... or out tilling the fields, tending to the farm animals, churning the butter, baking the bread from scratch from the wheat you milled yourself by hand, ...

didn't agree to split expenses 50/50 since I don't think it's fair to pay his loans if I'm not registered as an owner.

Yeah, split expenses 50/50 doesn't sounds very "traditional".

In any case, why would you go 50/50 on paying for what he owns and you have no ownership stake in? Now, not zero on property, 'cause if he was renting, then for you being there 50/50 would be a possible fair way to do it (traditional or not).

he knows how much I make, but he won't tell me his salary

Partner? Two years? That sounds likely to be a red flag to me. Generally partners, you don't hide that kind 'a stuff. I mean first date, yeah, sure, but partners, two years, living together ... generally aren't good reasons for him to not be sharing that information with you.

He doesn't want joint property and insists on a marriage agreement stating that any property bought after marriage belongs solely to the person who bought it and won't be shared.

Hey, he can ask for whatever he wants in a prenup (and so can you), but if it ain't mutually beneficial and agreeable, why would both parties ever agree to and sign it?

his hard work and the fact that he's building a future where I can enjoy life and freedom as a housewife

Or the "freedom" of a financial dependency? I mean I can get/see why he wouldn't want joint ownership on property(/ies), at least that he bought, but if, e.g. divorce happens and that screws you ... why would you (or anyone with more than half a brain) want to go for that deal? Now, could invest separately on your own, ... but that's not the same thing. So ... sounds like the two 'o you got some talkin' to do ... and maybe you come up with something mutually agreeable (enough) ... or, well ... maybe you don't.

he said he wouldn't leave his kids' mom without a place to sleep.

And can you get him to put that in the prenup? What about not leaving her impoverished? What about her medical, dental, and vision care? What about her retirement?

am I the problem here, or is he being dishonest with me?

Well, he's certainly not being transparent, notably not sharing his income information with you.

As for who's being the problem, that's more matter of perspective, and if your ideas on "traditional" - or whatever - reasonably line up ... or not. If y'all agree ... to whatever, then that's generally not a problem. And, if you don't agree ... well, ... that's a problem ... and not necessarily fair to say who the problem is or place the blame on one or the other, so much as y'all just may fundamentally not agree on how to work it out.

Hothead361 · 2024-08-07T03:36:39+00:00

You said that his parents have went through divorces multiple times, I believe he fears what if same happens to him, which is reasonable cause courts will screw him up if divorce happens.

Jake0024 · 2024-08-07T04:37:16+00:00

If you're willing to put your career and financial future aside/at risk by starting a family with him, but he's not even willing to put a home you buy together in both of your names, then he's not willing to be an equal partner.

If the deal is you put your career aside so he can focus on his, then you are literally and directly contributing to earning the money used to buy that future home. Just because the paycheck had his name on it doesn't mean you should get nothing.

A fair deal would probably be that if you were to get divorced, you keep a % of assets equal to whatever share your income is relative to his. If he's earning twice as much as you (2/3 of the total income), then you get 1/3 of everything in a divorce. That's what you're giving up by taking care of all the housework and family stuff and cooking and everything else for him. You should get that same portion of whatever investments you make together if that arrangement ends.

Zealousideal-Edge-40 · 2024-08-08T02:58:56+00:00

Well hard to call yourself traditional and own property as a woman. Id stop using traditional if youre not 110% commited. nothing wrong with that

ConnectAd5626 · 2024-08-09T02:14:02+00:00

He’s being honest and there is no problem. Sounds a little cold hearing from your perspective, but I would never fully trust you— or any woman— with my assets that I bought with my money. Marriage, no marriage.

Women statistically do not respect marriage so now all women unfortunately have to live like this because we as men only have one smart path to take with women now.

L0cked4fun · 2024-08-06T23:23:16+00:00

This is financial abuse. He expects you to earn nothing and have nothing to be able to leave if you want/need to.

I personally see marriage as a team effort and while I have a higher paying job than my wife, all the money goes in the pot equally. My job is rigid and has garbage benefits, hers is flexible and has better benefits. So we are all on her benefits and she can leave early or come in late to deal with kid stuff like school closures or sickness. She could try to find something that pays better but between the increased child care stress and bad benefits it would probably be a net loss.

This trend lately to play finances close to the chest doesn't feel like family to me.

bIuemickey · 2024-08-07T00:08:25+00:00

Being a housewife isn’t equal to being the breadwinner. He leaves, works, comes home, and brings a paycheck. That’s a very organized and documented quantifiable contribution. A housewife is ‘working’ without a schedule or a paycheck and doesn’t get to leave work when she’s done. Her work is her personal life, marriage and family, and is evaluated by her husband and kids whether they admit or not. They don’t notice the work as much as they expect it, meaning they expect a clean house, clean laundry, food, etc, so it’s more likely to go unnoticed until their expectations aren’t met. It seems like it’s easy for her “the house isn’t even that hard to clean” because of course it isn’t when she’s kept it clean each day.

Imagine living at work, and instead of leaving at 5 to go home, your job is evaluated and undone by whoever you work for. Your alone time isn’t your free time is also the time you’re working. You aren’t forced to stay home all day and night but when you do it’s always at the back of your mind.

You seem to be viewing the woman as the wife or mother that lives off her husband. He pays for everything, everything has a price that’s relative to his income, highlighting his contribution while she runs a dishwasher and watches bravo all day.

She’s raising her kids and cleaning and cooking for herself too so it’s not really a job right? Even when she’s appreciated, these relationships invite resentment from things that aren’t unlike resentment towards a boss or coworker, except you have a lot more to lose.

Relationships end. A housewife has given up her career to be at home, so she’s not going to have the same opportunities despite having responsibilities and obligations.

working just in a mutually agreed upon equal contribution. His paycheck is what paid for the house and cars and everything else, so why would she be entitled to it?

But what if he’s coming home and cooking, cleaning, taking the kids to school, to sports or whatever after, spending the entire weekend doing yard work and other obligations while also working 5 days a week? She’s done about half the housework or less and the kids went to daycare, then school for 7-8 hours, maybe even after school activities? She’s pissed off because she’s expected to do this and that, while he’s a man getting to go to work and sit around with the boys all day talking about the power they have and laughing about the luxury and privileges they have at the expense of their wives and every other woman.

There’s usually a combination of the two scenarios and the way it’s talked about is polarized because that’s what happens in relationships when the resentment builds up. Both sides feel like they’re supposed to do this and their partner is supposed to do that instead of finding a balance and communicating.

It’s hard because the woman will have to carry the kids, and choosing to be the one at home with them afterwards shouldn’t be giving up a career and financial freedom. It’s usually a choice that feels right at the time, then later changes.

So what I’m saying is this is a problem that doesn’t have a clear answer. You need to think about what will make you feel secure and empowered and not dependent on this person. He’s worried about his assets and that’s understandable. I don’t think anyone would feel rightfully entitled to what wealth he has before the relationship even began. But he wants you to be a housewife and “appreciate his work” while expecting you to contribute as a housewife and mother. Do you think he’s going to appreciate what you’re contributing?

It sounds like he has a misunderstanding of what a family is really like. If he can’t see things as equal then there’s no reason to try to make it work.

jacare_o · 2024-08-07T01:16:59+00:00

Modern marriage is an unfair financial contract, and it destroys men. Just go to the sub r/Divorce_Men and look at the stories.

Before civilization, there was no legal marriage. The cave people just pair bonded. This is the natural way.

When marriage was first instituted, it was for life. Something pretty bad had to happen to break a marriage.

But then, no fault divorce came about. There is no 'Till death do us part' anymore. Whoever that profits more from initiating divorce can just do it. When divorce is so easy, every day, each person thinks, do I get the best deal by staying in this marriage or getting out of it? The lower earner is going to keep getting financial support when they don't have to provide the services associated with marriage, and if they don't like doing those things, divorce might look like an attractive option for them.

That is what makes marriage a bad deal for men. They often end up paying alimony, losing custody of their kids, and also paying child support. After hearing what happened to other men, I would never sign a marriage contract. This is his viewpoint.

I also understand your viewpoint. You don't want to give up your earning potential, be completely dependent on him, and lose your financial security. You are right to demand marriage if you give up that financial security.

What I see as the answer in this case is for both of you to work and also share child care duties.

At-fault divorce was great for the protection of both parties as long as each party did the right thing. But that ship has sailed.

KAtusm · 2024-08-06T19:52:59+00:00

I don't think you are being unreasonable - I think he is.

Here's one way to think about it -

He gets to invest his time and energy into monetary assets that don't get split after a possible divorce. This means he gets to retain the gains from his time and energy after ya'll split up.

You handle the "house stuff" (possibly kids stuff) - which is a sunk cost that both of you share the benefit for. After divorce, where does the value of your time and energy go?

When one partner spends their time and energy building assets, and the other one puts things into the day to day management, that has to equal out somewhere.

Brave_Bluebird5042 · 2024-08-06T20:33:10+00:00

I think his proposed arrangements fail the "pub" test.

It's completely fair he wants to quarantine assets from prior to a relationship with you. It's unfair to not share assets acquired after you started supporting each other.

PhulHouze · 2024-08-06T21:01:32+00:00

So in traditional roles, he works, you stay home, and you share everything. If he works, you stay home, and he gets all the money, it sounds like you are getting screwed.

Technical_Ad_6594 · 2024-08-06T21:47:28+00:00

No way. Marriage is supposed to be a total partnership. Red flags! He wants to control you!

Ztommi · 2024-08-06T18:59:03+00:00

Don't let mistrust ruin your relationships. The what-ifs are a huge relationship killer. Between you and your heart, you know what kind of person he is. And if there are any issues you can't solve, go to your family members who still care and not to the government. Two years of building toward giving you a stable future is his love language. He is defensive about his earnings but that is likely his way of protecting himself. You've probably heard these things before but men have fragile egos, and are a bit territorial, but we care... deeply. The world and times he is living cause him to safeguard himself. He might drop them in the future, and when he does, don't rip him to shreds.

But how could you know whether this is the case or not? The best predictor of the future is the past; much better than that, we can't do. Two years of commitedly working toward something for you and your family tells me he's on the good side of things and really does want you and him to be well off and happy in the future. We men, also don't always get things right, so if his ideology is a bit off, as long as you see he has been committed to you, and cares, realize that he will rethink the ideology for your sake once he encounters conflicting information. And, if he has been there for you the whole time, when he rethinks it all, it will also be for you.

Trust is heavily needed in every relationship and fear will ruin it

GoddessJoules · 2024-08-07T03:23:10+00:00

If he's planning for divorce, he does not share your traditional values. RUN

Valuable_Cow_168 · 2024-08-07T03:40:26+00:00

Ultimately, as a man, I wouldn't sign that contract. A marriage is a partnership, and if you're going to be maintaining the house, raising a family, then you should have a stake in the property you live in.

speedinbai · 2024-08-07T03:53:18+00:00

I have to agree with a lot of the comments here. That doesn't sound like he wants a partner that sounds like he wants a cheap maid he can sleep with.

First things first your partners you shouldn't have secrets especially not in finances. As a traditional man it's your job to take care your woman that means also preparing for her future. A good traditional man who wants to take care of you is going to provision a way of taking care of you in your prenup. It might be alimony it might be something else in terms of finance but that's only fair.

Men do get destroyed in divorce right now in America but that doesn't mean that having a prenup needs to be so aggressive as to leave her with nothing. If you want the properties that might be okay if you provisioned for you in some other way in the prenup but from what it sounds like there isn't anything.

I am myself a 31 year old traditional man that you would have a prenup and would like it stay at home wife. But that definitely would mean in my prenup that she is getting something. That might be a special retirement account for her on top of some other funds, that might be a particular property with some funds, or that might be something totally different.

I don't remember where I heard this but I love this concept: A prenup should be you and your partner coming together when you still love each other to say if things do go wrong I want you to at least have this.

Since he doesn't want you to have anything if you ever get divorced that's a huge red flag.

pevaryl · 2024-08-07T04:17:39+00:00

OP this is a whole lot of glaring red flags

Low_Rich_5436 · 2024-08-07T06:24:41+00:00

If a couple makes a choice together, they have to face the consequences of that choice together.

They are a team, individual players don't score. You should split everything acquired after the marriage 50/50 in case of separation. That's the normal rule in my country. Everything you had before is yours alone, everything acquired together is owned together. That's fair. If he doesn't want to be a team he doesn't want to be married.

That being said, all of this has to be considered with the laws applicable regarding alimony etc in mind. We don't have alimony where I live for more than a few years, time to fall back on your feet, and custody of children is automatically split 50/50 so child support is unusual. If your husband is embarking on a lifetime of supporting you upon marriage regardless of wether you stay together or not, a 50/50 split seems less legitimate.

dudester3 · 2024-08-07T08:49:38+00:00

Old dude here. Very trad and religious.

Marriage is supposed to be a covenant , a total giving of self. GOOD,BAD, UGLY. A legal contract is just that: terms to negotiate. If you hope to have children, I think you both need to re-examine the meaning of marriage in your lives. If either of you is not ready for such a commitment, then why live together? Just $$? I understand the need to protect oneself, but parenting (hell, life) is about risk.

Do you want your children to see you give to each other, and sacrifice for their sake, and the sake of the marriage? Think long-term. I don't mean to be harsh, but bringing children into the world is more than just business. IMO, seek a priest, minister, whatever so you know what you truly want out of this relationship.

aircoft · 2024-08-07T09:17:05+00:00

Relying on someone else's money always carries the risk you mentioned (being left only with what you've earned, and none of their assets). Personally, that's not an appealing risk to me, and not likely something I'd do. That being said, maybe if he wants you to rely on him to such a degree, he needs to offer you some sort of (legal) assurance that, should you split, all of your time spent foregoing a career (being a housewife) wasn't for nothing. If he's planning on being with you the rest of your lives, whatever happens in the event you were to break up shouldn't matter.

Op-Thread · 2024-08-07T09:55:20+00:00

If it’s bought after marriage it’s supposed to be both of yours

CharmingSama · 2024-08-07T10:23:49+00:00

I think he is being unreasonable. the cost of loyalty is accountability, and if he is not willing to take in account your financial contribution, he is not showing you loyalty, he is being too proud and only thinking of himself. he is being unfair, and is the cause of the tension. no I would say, when words are not in alignment with actions, that is a red flag for deception. he wants you to trust him, while not reciprocating trust in you. asking him how does what he is doing live up to his marriage vows to you? the part about honor? what he wants to do is dishonorable.

LelouchviBrittaniax · 2024-08-07T12:17:40+00:00

From his end its the fact that courts favor women in divorce settlements and tend to give women more so he wants to protect himself from that. It does puts you in danger in case of divorce, but the alternative would put his investment in property in jeopardy and property cost a lot of money nowadays.

Since he owns two apartment its likely he makes more than you, depend on jurisdiction marriage would make your financial status equal which means he would lose and you will gain, its only natural for him to oppose that.

panay- · 2024-08-07T13:57:27+00:00

The issue with having traditional views like this is there’re isn’t a single set of traditional views. A modern view would just be every contributes 50/50 (ish), everything is shared equally, if the relationship ends everything is split equally. Maybe there’s some imbalance of housework or earnings, but you love each other so that’s not important.

Once you say actually we want completely separate roles, what are those roles? You say traditional, but even historically those roles haven’t always been the same. Contrary to popular belief, a lot of hunters were women. Spartan women were trained to fight. During agricultural times women were working the fields as much as men.

The point is, what these roles look like isn’t clear cut, so you as a couple need to decide what that looks like for you, what you’re contributions will be and how you consider ownership of your assets. If you think your contributions through housework are equally as valuable to his working, maybe you say everything is still owned equally by both of you and split 50/50 in the case of divorce. If you think his work is more valuable than you being at home, maybe he should have a larger share of the assets.

Control of the assets is a separate issue. Maybe you think you both contribute 50/50, but like him being the one making financial decisions and controlling the money. Personally I’d find it strange if you wouldn’t want a say in things, but I’d consider this separate to who the assets belong to.

But there isn’t a rule here; it’s just what you two as a couple decide and are both happy with. And presumably you love each other and both want the other to be happy with whatever you land on.

Ok-Manufacturer-7842 · 2024-08-08T20:52:19+00:00

He wants a traditional wife without being traditional himself..

springy · 2024-08-06T19:57:18+00:00

Why would you want a divorce if you are traditionally valued? And if you suspect he will want a divorce, then you suspect he is not traditionally valued. in fact, why are you calling him your "partner" rather than your husband? There is lots of contradiction in what you write.

OnlyCommentWhenTipsy · 2024-08-06T19:07:36+00:00

I don't think he's compromising, I don't think he sees you as an equal, and I don't think he knows what traditional means. In a traditional relationship the housewife would be entitled to half of everything earned after the marriage in return for giving up her career and raising the children. Him expecting you to give up your income while not giving you access to his is insane actually. Big red flag.

Training_Pause_9256 · 2024-08-06T20:21:52+00:00

He sounds like a control freak... run would be my advice. After marriage, it should be 50/50. Both share everything. (Yes I am a man).

monkeyninja6969 · 2024-08-06T21:09:51+00:00

The biased family court is the problem, not you. If it's that important if/when you get married make sure that you having a home is included into the prenuptial agreement. That would be him keeping his word and everything he has worked towards as well as giving you what you want. That's fair.

Nikunj47 · 2024-08-06T19:08:01+00:00

It all would depend on what kind of relationship it has been always. If you both have trust on each other completely since beginning and he has provided for you and family always then it shouldn't be big issue. It's understandable that you might be worried regarding this as you'd be giving your profession. You should know if no one brought this up that men also are scared in current society since many women these days just divorce in order to gain financial benefits. Also, I can't comment much about your culture but in mine people hardly ever get divorced, less than 1%. What i would say is you both need to sit and discuss it out and go with gut feeling as love is all about believing in each other.

Eoasap · 2024-08-06T19:33:46+00:00

Not fair to you. I agree- assets owned before marriage should remain each of your own's property, but once you marry, everything accumulated from that point on** should be community property ESPECIALLY if you're a sahm! You're providing value for the relationship just as much as he is You're allowing him the 'freedom to work' (sounds silly, but it's true here) while you care for the kids and house.

At least in the US, the government feels so strongly about it, it may even void prenuptial agreements to make sure the assets accumulated during marriage are equally split and no one is taken advantage of.

Regardless of how you feel abou him or the relationship , you have to protect your own interests and interests of your (future?) Kids. He needs to understand you're providing a service by taking care of everything at home and raising your kids. that has tremendous value.

I don't see how he can value you as a perso if he can't understand the value a sahm provides. Protect yourself, don't be vulnerable because may become trapped and having options os what,makes a saf and stable life. No options usually means you're dependent on someone so they can rule with an iron fist if they want and there's nothing you can do.

Talk to your friends and family, and even check with a lawyer if you just to see how different scenarios would play out as far as community proerty, investments, and communial assets. Educate yourself on local laws, and go forward protecting yourself or not at all. Good luck! Hope it works out well and you have a great future!

** it can be tricky deterring future assets .if he puts down $500k of his own money on an investment and it yields $100k in a year, you didn't really contribute to that particular future asset..

EOD_Bad_Karma · 2024-08-06T19:34:47+00:00

If he wants a prenup made, it should be a “yours. Mine. Ours” prenup.

Where you would each keep the things you’ve had before marriage separated. But anything AFTER marriage, would be a joint thing.

Yes, he’s earning the money but you would literally be raising his kids and doing your duty as a housewife.

That’s the entire point.

If he can’t accept that? Move on imo. Find a better man.

kochIndustriesRussia · 2024-08-06T20:30:20+00:00

I mean...he's entitled to his beliefs.

Its not a bargain that many western educated women would go for (read: none) but he's entitled to try and get you onboard. That's more a passport bro type deal for a wife from a 3rd world country.

You don't have to take the deal if you don't like the terms? Simple as that.

Maximum-External5606 · 2024-08-06T21:02:05+00:00

I don't think you are the problem, a guy just wants to protect himself. The marriage laws are the problem. A lot of divorces happen after kids are born. Can't blame either of you for wanting what's in your own best interests.

IceCorrect · 2024-08-06T22:49:18+00:00

How can you appreciate his work if you don't benefit form it?

You should not, because he doesn't trust you at all

adolftickler0 · 2024-08-06T22:58:13+00:00

He wants you to take all the risk of the relationship but if TSHTF he will be screwed anyways in court if you don't work.

Just do as my mother did: 50/50 or I will have to pursue a career as well.

Melodic-Dust-1160 · 2024-08-07T00:32:16+00:00

You are giving up your career and financial freedom to be a home maker. He is giving up his ability to spend time with his kids and enjoy leisure time during his days. You are both sacrificing. Women typically don't construe men working hard to be the breadwinner as entailing giving something up - but believe me, I would have killed to be able to spend all the time with my kids my wife did. If you believe its fair to take the property he acquired via his sacrifice in the event of divorce, then he gets the kids. Fair is fair. If you want both his property and the kids, then you are being unfair and selfish. Source: a man who busted his ass working 50+ hour weeks for 20 years while my wife worked 2 days per week max and enjoyed being with the kids, being a home maker, and having lots of free time. After the divorce, she ended up with 2/3 of the wealth I had accumulated and the kids most of the time. I sacrificed all that for this outcome.

Edit: that said, I agree with others that him withholding his financial position from you, and asking to keep all assets acquired after being married, is patently ridiculous.

DaJosuave · 2024-08-07T01:47:10+00:00

He clearly doesn't have traditional beliefs.

He's missing the traditional part where he shares his entire estate with his lady.

Where he's coming from is that he's afraid you're just going to use him, basically stay at home, work less, and then divorce him once the nest has grown.

But tbh, either you split the work, or you share the work.

There can be 2 arrangements:

You stay home he "provides," but you have to share the estate.

You both work, you both make at home. You split the estate.

The thing you have to figure out is why he's so hell-bent on him "owning" when you are also providing,

You can tell him he's basically asking for a slave. In Hispanic culture, he is a Machsita, or I guess misogynist.

SpicyTigerPrawn · 2024-08-06T19:14:40+00:00

As written the agreement seems pretty lopsided in his favor, but since none of us know you or where you live it makes more sense to ask a lawyer and take what they say to heart. Where I live this sort of agreement would never fly as written. You can keep whatever you came with but everything earned/bought while married is divided roughly equally unless it was inherited or part of a trust.

Academic_Rest_1483 · 2024-08-07T11:20:15+00:00

am i the only one who finds it kind of ridiculous that we’re accommodating a woman’s issue on a subreddit specifically meant for talking about men’s issues?? we really can’t have anything to ourselves huh 💀

Efficient_Aspect_638 · 2024-08-06T17:54:33+00:00

It’s pretty simple. He just wants what’s his to remain his. If he’s paying for everything except food and whatever else and said he wouldn’t leave you homeless. I would just accept that. Why do you want to be a part of his property portfolio? Surely you’d reap the benefits of whatever he’s doing any whether your name was there or not.

It’s probably to do with the fact he may of heard 80% of women initiate divorce and by disclosing what he makes and putting your name on property you’ll take it from him. Just a guess.

KingpinPenguin97 · 2024-08-06T18:26:19+00:00

We cannot say because we don't understand the full story.

First, you must imagine how he must feel, then try understanding how you feel. Look for holes in the reasoning that is used by you both justifying how either of you feel.

What is his point of view?

Why does he feel that way?

Is it understandable?

If yes, how do you intend to proceed? (let it go and trust him, or explore alternative options to enhance your financial security in the worst case?)You can never go wrong with a back-up plan, but do not make a back-up plan with malicious intent to oppose his ideals. Express what you wish to do and hope for his support. Bridge the blatant trust gap by expressing that you wish for a secure future for the both of you. Just as he may act based on the worry of divorce, you are worried about the same. Not that there is a major relationship issue, but you both only with to alleviate your worries. Engage with him in using your own money to set up your own investments.

If no, what about it do you not understand? Address what you do not understand with him in a calm and rational manner. Do not speak to him as if he is being stupid. Chances are, he has a logical reasoning, but it won't just come out because you will it to. Be patient.

Communicating your intent and reasoning is more important than anything. Ensure that he understands that the divorce that he is worried about will not happen. Work together on getting your own portfolio, but use your own money and none of his. If he insists, ensure that ownership of your investments are not split. Use your personal funds gained to contribute equally to some expenses, but do not become pretentious and expect the unreasonable. Do not contribute more than he does to the functionality of your households. Keep a balance in the household. Allow him to function at his best. Keep in mind how long he's been with you. Just be open and honest. He seems nice, but paranoid. Do not treat him like an asshole over this. The fact that you are asking men for advice on a men is a good sign, God knows that a feminist group would be screaming divorce him asap by now and that's not what you need.

You two are simply in disagreement. It happens. It's not the end of the world.

Good luck.

624Seeds · 2024-08-06T22:23:55+00:00

You wanted a traditional life and a traditional man. He makes the decisions and you follow. Is that not what traditional means?

generalgrimm2021 · 2024-08-06T19:04:08+00:00

A. Yes, you are the problem B. The information you want, you don’t need IF YOU WERE TRULY IN LOVE AND COMMITTED TO HIM C. He should NOT marry you, if you feel that you are “giving up” things. Being married and becoming a housewife IS GAINING not losing, and if you have that attitude you will continue to be the problem. D. If you don’t want him to divorce you, keep him happy. It’s that simple E. If you are worried about divorce already YOU are marrying for the wrong reasons

AloneFlight4411 · 2024-08-07T01:06:09+00:00

Lady - you know in your gut that this guy is not it … also if you are traditional why are you living with someone prior to marriage ? Why are you paying 50:50? What is going on ? You may think you are traditional and he may think so - but neither your actions show this. He is also redflagging all over the place because he cares little about your potential financial security. Ditch and don’t live with a man prior to marriage

Right_Apartment3673 · 2024-08-06T20:27:43+00:00

"He pays for loans to his property". Of course. Do you want to pay off other people's debt and get them their property for free?

You are not ready for a relationship, you have many basics messed up.

And he's a very insecure guy. He's already thought of divorce and is keeping his money, his properties, the contract of servitude to himself. He knows exactly what to do when he gets a divorce. And, he wants his kids out of his err surrogate and pay up for her services and kick her off later when he's done.

And keeping you as a bang-maid-servant for his kids with no money, security, house of her own.

Why are you even thinking of marrying and giving up your finances for someone who's clearly said you're not his financial responsibility, is distrustful and already thinking about ending his marriage whoever it is with. You're better alone with own finances, gradually you'll build your own home and find a decent guy who thinks about securing a family not secure himself against his family. He's toxic.

He's so pathetic, he won't even get a life insurance and if he does, will keep his mother as a nominee to get the money.

He has 0 concern for financial well being of his wife or kids.

He's a red flag through and through.

Decent men care about well being of their wives when they die or aren't with her. That military martyr whose wife and inkaw spat was In the news, out if 1 cr. 65L went to parents, rest to wife. Even he split his money among his parents and wife and had monthly pension for his young wife. Men give premiums for life insurance worrying how their family would survive without him.

What kind of a narcissist abusive man you're with. Securing own money and property against divorce is fine but keeping everything under a lock so wife doesn't even get to know will be a source of financial worry to the entire family.

If he's so sure his money and property will be taken away by the wife, why marry. Tell him to "pay to get wifely experince" and adopt kids if he wants or get a commercial surrogate to do that and bring up his adopted kids on his own.

What a jerk. And you need own issues to heal so you don't think this is normal. Find a guy who is loving and caring and seeks to build a family as opposed to guarding himself from his family. Dude shouldn't marry at all, he's deathly afraid of marriage and finances taken away.

Sad-Persimmon-5484 · 2024-08-06T18:29:50+00:00

My advice is to stay with him and make your man happy and he won't leave you

Title	Am I the problem?
Author	LinLinF
Upvotes	96
Comments	149
Date	August 6, 2024 5:24 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1elnnym/am_i_the_problem/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/am-i-the-problem.1526519 https://theredarchive.com/post/1526519

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